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Religious fundamentalism, is it everywhere?

post #1 of 96
Thread Starter 
After our recent discussions on Islam, I'm left with the feeling that some of you guys blame this religion and it's holy scriptures for about all the bad things going on in the world.

While we where able to give the Mormons a break, and see people as people, instead of labeling a whole group. We where well on the way on letting our prejudices get the upper hand. But a good effort from groverat and some others turned the whole thread into a class in mormon ways, and not judging people by their religion/ religious group.

If you dig a bit you'll find sects and holy text in every religion that are "disturbing" to say the least. The old testament is filled with "barbaric" punishments and prophicies. The Talmud has quite a few "unsympatetic" decriptions on how to deal with "none jews".
Right wing Christians are in the western world reponsible for several "religious murdes" each year, attacks on abortion-supportes etc. I recently read about an incident where an ultra-ortodox jew refused to lend out his phone to call for an ambulance for a non-jew. The burning of a train filled with muslim families by hindu-nationalist in India two weeks ago is another sad example.

These are the sad realities of all practice of religion in its most extreem forms.

All this should probably go into the "big bloke in black..." thread, but I have given up following it.
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post #2 of 96
While this might be true to a limited point, I don't see 16 year old Christian girls walk into a Catholic church in Yorktown and blow herself up and kill 21 people.

Most of the terrorist problems in the world nowadays are the result of Islamic terrorists.

I hope Israel kills every single Palestinean over there.
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post #3 of 96
Yes, it's everywhere.

Next question.
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post #4 of 96
Thread Starter 
Well, when you put it that way, you have bomb attacks in North Ireland all the time...
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post #5 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Well, when you put it that way, you have bomb attacks in North Ireland all the time...</strong><hr></blockquote>


My wife and I were just talking about this very subject not 4 hours ago. Neither us can understand why this happens in Ireland and not in the US... We in the US have Catholics and Protestants everywhere, and NO KILLINGS! I don't understand it.
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post #6 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by His Dudeness:
<strong>
I hope Israel kills every single Palestinean over there.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Its really strange to me that anyone can want an Endlösung to the situation. Despite what you think about the Israel/Palestine situation how can you wish the death of millions of innocent people? Children that can´t even comprehend the situation yet. Your statement is no better than that of OBL and I don´t even think he wishes every american dead.

Every person should be hold accountable for his or hers action. Its not "every population should be hold accountable for the action of its members" or there would be no people left on the earth.
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post #7 of 96
As others have said in other threads, fundamentalism is not necessarily the bad thing. Or, at least, it's no worse than believing in the supernatural in general. Fundamentalism just means "back to basics."

And I don't think I've heard people blame Islam the religion as much as Islam the culture. But it's hard to separate the two, because they have theocracies and don't typically value religious pluralism in their countries.

But, I do have a question: Doesn't the Koran promote war (jihad) with infidels? And if so, wouldn't a literal interpretation combined with a willingness to define 'infidel' loosely encourage violence? And does anything similar appear in other religions?
post #8 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by His Dudeness:
<strong>My wife and I were just talking about this very subject not 4 hours ago. Neither us can understand why this happens in Ireland and not in the US... We in the US have Catholics and Protestants everywhere, and NO KILLINGS! I don't understand it.</strong><hr></blockquote>Because there is no land at stake.
post #9 of 96
Osama Bin Laden DOES want the death of all Americans, otherwise he wouldn't have said it was the purpose of ALL Muslims to kill Americans everywhere.

And the children over in Palestine understand exactly the situation over there. I've seen the videos of the young kids hooping and hollerin over the WTC attacks... I've seen the video of the 16 year old girl who was the terrorist bomber who killed three people at the market in Jerusalem... Trust me, they know exactly the situation over there.

On the other hand, my step kids who are teens aren't killing Catholics and Jews. They are going to school, playing video games and watching tv.
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post #10 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>Because there is no land at stake.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So what? That's a petty excuse to kill other people. So if I want "the Catholics" off my street, the way to do it is to kill them???

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post #11 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by His Dudeness:
<strong>The children over in Palestine understand exactly the situation over there.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Also those who can´t talk yet?

[quote]<strong>I've seen the videos of the young kids hooping and hollerin over the WTC attacks...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have seen that here in Denmark too (VERY few). Should they be killed as well? Could you convict people to death in US if they had cheered 911?

[quote]<strong>I've seen the video of the 16 year old girl who was the terrorist bomber who killed three people at the market in Jerusalem... Trust me, they know exactly the situation over there.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Does her actions make the whole Palestinian population guilty?.

[quote]<strong>On the other hand, my step kids who are teens aren't killing Catholics and Jews. They are going to school, playing video games and watching tv.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hooray for them.

Even when in war civilian casualties are considered regrettable "side effects" but you want to slaughter an entire population because of the actions of a few of them (rememeber there are millions palestinians) What makes you better than Hitler?
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post #12 of 96
Thread Starter 
From what I hear, the talmud also states that it is less evil to kill a gentile than a jew... my point is that all the holy text can be used (misused) to promote violence.

A muslim friend of mine who studies this subject has told me that the whole concept of Jihad is very misused and misunderstood. It is supposedly more about defence than holy war. The term Jihad has to with the exertion of a holy task for the benefit of Islam. So building a bridge could be a Jihad, if the aim is holy enough...
Jihad has also been used in wars between muslim tribes, but, according to my friend, this is a grave misuse of the term.
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post #13 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Hooray for them.

Even when in war civilian casualties are considered regrettable "side effects" but you want to slaughter an entire population because of the actions of a few of them (rememeber there are millions palestinians) What makes you better than Hitler?</strong><hr></blockquote>


reaaaaaaaaach......... You know what I mean, dude.
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post #14 of 96
Thread Starter 
[quote]Because there is no land at stake. <hr></blockquote>

hmm... you pretty much hit the nail on the head I think... This is certainly a big part of it. But while land-disputes are usually settled, conflicts with a religious aspect seem to carry on forever...

[ 03-29-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #15 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by His Dudeness:
<strong>So what? That's a petty excuse to kill other people. So if I want "the Catholics" off my street, the way to do it is to kill them???

</strong><hr></blockquote>Heh. I always love it when the rolleyes come out. You know for sure you've won an argument when the other side trots out the rolleyes.

You were apparently trying to make some deep point about why Catholics and Protestants don't kill each other in the US.

In fact, it's really very straightforward. It's not just a religious conflict - it's a religious conflict tied up in the politics of a particular region.

It's still not clear what your point was about comparing Irish Protestants and Catholics to American ones. Perhaps you could explain.

I look forward to your response, Mr. "Kill Every Single Palestinian."
post #16 of 96
&gt;The burning of a train filled with muslim families by hindu-nationalist in India two weeks ago is another sad example.&lt;

It was muslimns who set fire to a train filled with Hindus.

As for whether there is religious extremism everywhere-in different times and places it has existed within every major religion.

A century ago Christianity was the source of much of the violence attributed to religion. Right now it is Islam. Islam is the scourge of the world right now and the cause of much evil. The biggest problem is that the Imams and religious figures of Islam are not vocalizing any disgust with terrorism and violence and are actually in many ways instigating it. Right now Islam is the enemy of the world.

As for why this kind of violence is rarely seen in the US its because we're all working too hard to let our base fears and fanaticisms take over. Its also because we are smarter than those uneducated assholes.......................................... .....
post #17 of 96
Thread Starter 
My mistake, here is the right story (courtesy of BBC):

[quote]Riots were sparked off across Gujarat early this month after a Muslim mob attacked and killed a group of Hindu activists travelling by train in the town of Godhra.

Several days of revenge attacks followed in which at least 700 people, mostly members of the minority Muslim community, were killed.
<hr></blockquote>

As you can see from the story, the number of casualities where highest among the muslims here as well. It is also worth mentioning that the hindu activists where trying to raise a hindu temple on the ruins of a mosque... Land again...

[quote]Its also because we are smarter than those uneducated assholes.<hr></blockquote>
OMG... yes, you must be smarter... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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post #18 of 96
Dudeguy, No, i for one don't know what you mean. You come off like an ignoranti. Not knoing the very basics of why Ireland is different than the United States. When there has been a history of bloody subjugation of the Irish by the English for hundreds years and now they practice it upon themselves.

Funtamentalism may be about the "fundamentals" but it really means " dawgonnit I know what's right . . .its just common sayance . . Its what I think",

or, to be fair: it usually means that it is about reading a text as if one's own understanding of it is the fundamental truth and that whatever that text (whichever 'scripture' of choice or upbringing) says according to a simple (read simplistic)and literal understanding means is the only truth.
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post #19 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>Dudeguy, No, i for one don't know what you mean. You come off like an ignoranti. Not knoing the very basics of why Ireland is different than the United States. When there has been a history of bloody subjugation of the Irish by the English for hundreds years and now they practice it upon themselves.

Funtamentalism may be about the "fundamentals" but it really means " dawgonnit I know what's right . . .its just common sayance . . Its what I think",

or, to be fair: it usually means that it is about reading a text as if one's own understanding of it is the fundamental truth and that whatever that text (whichever 'scripture' of choice or upbringing) says according to a simple (read simplistic)and literal understanding means is the only truth.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Ignoranti!! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Now about the Palestinean thing... they are nothing more than terrorists, and you kill terrorists. You don't negotiate with them. You don't give them air-time on Al Jazeera or CNN. You kill them. This is what Israel is doing now. They should have started this long ago.
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post #20 of 96
gnoranti!!
Now about the Palestinean thing... they are nothing more than terrorists, and you kill terrorists. You don't negotiate with them. You don't give them air-time on Al Jazeera or CNN. You kill them. This is what Israel is doing now. They should have started this long ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen, brother..........................................
post #21 of 96
I think I've hit on the solution to the Israel/Palestinian problem: Israel gives the West Bank back to Jordan (who had it before 1967). Then all the Palestinians are Jordan's problem to deal with.
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post #22 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by TJM:
<strong>I think I've hit on the solution to the Israel/Palestinian problem: Israel gives the West Bank back to Jordan (who had it before 1967). Then all the Palestinians are Jordan's problem to deal with. </strong><hr></blockquote>

If only it were that easy...
[edit] reread the post, deleted a bunch[/edit]

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
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post #23 of 96
Since no one has said it yet I feel compelled to do so,

(ehem)

His Dudeness is an Evil, Raciest, Nazi **** who knows nothing of the world except what he sees growing on his own ass!!

Ok now we can continue.
post #24 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>Heh. I always love it when the rolleyes come out. You know for sure you've won an argument when the other side trots out the rolleyes.

You were apparently trying to make some deep point about why Catholics and Protestants don't kill each other in the US.

In fact, it's really very straightforward. It's not just a religious conflict - it's a religious conflict tied up in the politics of a particular region.

It's still not clear what your point was about comparing Irish Protestants and Catholics to American ones. Perhaps you could explain.

I look forward to your response, Mr. "Kill Every Single Palestinian."</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you: especially the sentance : it's a religious conflict tied up in the politics of a particular region. Same applies in France, today a conflict between Catholics and protestants will be irreal, this was not the case in the past, because the conflict was not strictly about religious behavior, but about politics and way of life.
post #25 of 96
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post #26 of 96
Thread Starter 
Your sugestion is sort of like giving the whole area back to England... They created the mess, let them sort it out... Since the have so much experience with these kind of conflicts, I mean...

You speak of the palestinians as a ball you can just toss around. I think you should have noticed that the palestinans have gotten fed up with beeing tossed around...
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post #27 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>Since no one has said it yet I feel compelled to do so,

(ehem)

His Dudeness is an Evil, Raciest, Nazi **** who knows nothing of the world except what he sees growing on his own ass!!

Ok now we can continue. </strong><hr></blockquote>


Are you losers happy now?

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

This is a bold statement seeing as how, after being in the Navy for 14 years and seeing more of the world than you.........
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post #28 of 96
I've lived half my life on military bases around the world, and it has shown me one thing: idiots are idiots here, and idiots are idiots there. . . idiots are idiots on the road and off . . . they still see only what they want to see and never seem to grow from 'worldly' experiences.... are you proof of such an observance?!?.


Palastinians are people that are treated like shit and then some of them do very very very stupid things to try to solve their problems, or, out of hatred . . . they are wrong for what they are doing, but killing all the Palastinians is just plain idiotic.
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post #29 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>

If you dig a bit you'll find sects and holy text in every religion that are "disturbing" to say the least. The old testament is filled with "barbaric" punishments and prophicies. The Talmud has quite a few "unsympatetic" decriptions on how to deal with "none jews".
Right wing Christians are in the western world reponsible for several "religious murdes" each year, attacks on abortion-supportes etc.

These are the sad realities of all practice of religion in its most extreem forms.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

New,

Millions of people were murdered in Russia due to communism.

Here in America, we've killed over 40 million unborn babies.

As you can see, killing can be done equally as well by people who have no religious beliefs.
post #30 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by His Dudeness:
<strong>

This is a bold statement seeing as how, after being in the Navy for 14 years and seeing more of the world than you......... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh great he knows how to shot a gun to!!

<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />

I just hope you never got above swaping the deck.

Yea you have seen more of the wold. More Navy bases, more water, more people to kill...
Great good for you.
post #31 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>but killing all the Palastinians is just plain idiotic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You'll have no argument on that one from me.
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post #32 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Your sugestion is sort of like giving the whole area back to England... They created the mess, let them sort it out... Since the have so much experience with these kind of conflicts, I mean...

You speak of the palestinians as a ball you can just toss around. I think you should have noticed that the palestinans have gotten fed up with beeing tossed around...</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was meant to be a joke - note the big smile at the end.

Actually, the 6-day war of 1967 was one of the best things that ever happened to Jordan in this regard. The Black September group which was involved in the massacre of the Israeli olympic team in Munich took its name from an incident with Jordan refusing to give in to terrorist demands earlier (Jordanian troops storming a hijacked plane and killing all the terrorists, IIRC). If you've noticed over the years that while Syria has demanded the Golan Heights back and Egypt demanded (and got) the Sinai back, Jordan has never once suggested that they want the West Bank back. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
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post #33 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by thentro:
<strong>

Oh great he knows how to shot a gun to!!

<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />

I just hope you never got above swaping the deck.

Yea you have seen more of the wold. More Navy bases, more water, more people to kill...
Great good for you. </strong><hr></blockquote>


Gee thanks, I guess. Actually, I'm a Cryptologist. Pretty cool job. Subs, cruises, aircraft carriers, amphibs... Pretty awesome job.
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post #34 of 96
Just a few years ago israel offered to give jordan the West Bank. They turned the offer down. Can you blame them?...........................................
post #35 of 96
Thread Starter 
so why do Israel want it so bad now...?

[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #36 of 96
Back to topic: Yes fundamentalism is everywhere.

I think that it is an intrinsic problem with human belief systems that they move to try and 'explain' and encapsulate every other possible perspective: I think that it is the inherent totalitarianism of systematic thought that finds its most basic expression in religious fundamentalism.

Best seen when a complex issue is reduced to a 'fact' and the social forces are mobilized according to the simplistic reading of the said fact: such as 'all abortions are murder' or 'all religions are stupid'

its a tricky issue, because we always interpret the world utilizing systems... what we need is open sytematic/non-systematic thought that is pragmatic to the point of near relativism yet grounded on the insistence of openness. . . . .got it?!?!
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post #37 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>so why do Israel want it so bad now...?

[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

They don't. They just spent the last few years trying to get Arafat to take it back...............
post #38 of 96
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>Back to topic: Yes fundamentalism is everywhere.

I think that it is an intrinsic problem with human belief systems that they move to try and 'explain' and encapsulate every other possible perspective: I think that it is the inherent totalitarianism of systematic thought that finds its most basic expression in religious fundamentalism.

Best seen when a complex issue is reduced to a 'fact' and the social forces are mobilized according to the simplistic reading of the said fact: such as 'all abortions are murder' or 'all religions are stupid'

its a tricky issue, because we always interpret the world utilizing systems... what we need is open sytematic/non-systematic thought that is pragmatic to the point of near relativism yet grounded on the insistence of openness. . . . .got it?!?!</strong><hr></blockquote>

And you will end up with something that means nothing. Got it...
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post #39 of 96
Thread Starter 
[quote]They don't. They just spent the last few years trying to get Arafat to take it back............... <hr></blockquote>

Yes, I can see how they are currently giving Ramalah back to the palestinians. Did you know that during the late 1980's and 1990's almost a 100 000 new settlers moved to gaza and the west bank... Why was that?

[quote] I think that it is an intrinsic problem with human belief systems that they move to try and 'explain' and encapsulate every other possible perspective: I think that it is the inherent totalitarianism of systematic thought that finds its most basic expression in religious fundamentalism. <hr></blockquote>

well, much fundamentalism is "modern". It is a reaction to "failed" religious practice... Fundamentalism is actually "reformist" in it's goals...
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post #40 of 96
Here's what I don't understand: If the Palistinians simply stopped their suicide bombings then Israel would stop moving in on Palistinian territorries. The Israelis have shown they are willing to negotiate and comprimise. on the other hand the Palistinians ruin all negotiations with bombings. Ask yourself, what would YOUR country do if they were in the Israeli situation? Fold over and cave in? Maybe...
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