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Banksy US tour 2010

post #1 of 55
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post



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Interesting artwork, but it appears that he is not given permission to place it where he does. Does that make him a high profile vandal then?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #3 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Interesting artwork, but it appears that he is not given permission to place it where he does. Does that make him a high profile vandal then?

Yes.

He is famous for it.

In the UK the councils try to paint over them as soon as they arrive. Sometimes he sneaks artworks into museums where they remain undetected for a while.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes.

He is famous for it.

In the UK the councils try to paint over them as soon as they arrive. Sometimes he sneaks artworks into museums where they remain undetected for a while.

Ok, so what is his angle then? What is he trying to accomplish? Besides glamorizing vandalism...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #5 of 55
This message just doesn't work in the US market. N. Pelosi specifically stated one should follow their dreams, whether it be music or the arts, and the taxpayers would have their back.
post #6 of 55
Striking work.

You might also enjoy Robin Rhode's work- http://www.perryrubenstein.com/artists/robin-rhode/
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #7 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevegmu View Post

This message just doesn't work in the US market. N. Pelosi specifically stated one should follow their dreams, whether it be music or the arts, and the taxpayers would have their back.

I think you're not quite getting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Striking work.

You might also enjoy Robin Rhode's work- http://www.perryrubenstein.com/artists/robin-rhode/

Some of that's really cool...thanks for the link...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ok, so what is his angle then? What is he trying to accomplish? Besides glamorizing vandalism...

WHat is he trying to accomplish hmm...well...he's an artist. I guess in that context the art has to speak for itself and it's about what it says to you.

He does take it to a different level though in as much as he is clearly making statements about art, fame and money (apart from the political angle) - no-one knows who he is so he is eschewing the fame angle, he does not sell his works for major sums of money and he does not believe they should be in museums for the elite but rather for 'the people' in urban contexts.

I suppose some people - you apparently - might regard a festering, decrepit, refuse-strewn empty and decaying lot as 'un-vandalised' and conversely regard any attempt to brighten it or beautify it via street-art as somehow 'degrading' this paradise but that probably is very near the point he is trying to make maybe.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #8 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think you're not quite getting it.



Some of that's really cool...thanks for the link...



WHat is he trying to accomplish hmm...well...he's an artist. I guess in that context the art has to speak for itself and it's about what it says to you.

He does take it to a different level though in as much as he is clearly making statements about art, fame and money (apart from the political angle) - no-one knows who he is so he is eschewing the fame angle, he does not sell his works for major sums of money and he does not believe they should be in museums for the elite but rather for 'the people' in urban contexts.

I suppose some people - you apparently - might regard a festering, decrepit, refuse-strewn empty and decaying lot as 'un-vandalised' and conversely regard any attempt to brighten it or beautify it via street-art as somehow 'degrading' this paradise but that probably is very near the point he is trying to make maybe.

An artist is fine. As I said, his work is interesting. However spray-painting on a wall that is not your own without permission is against the law, whether that wall is a decrepit lot, a bridge, or a home or museum. He may be a world class artist, and it still is against the law. It also encourages those less artistic taggers to compete so you end up with crap graffiti surrounding the arguably better work.

If he wants to "beautify" a place, get permission, I am sure that many of the people would love to have him do so. But then, that would destroy the experience right, doing it legally?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #9 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

An artist is fine. As I said, his work is interesting. However spray-painting on a wall that is not your own without permission is against the law, whether that wall is a decrepit lot, a bridge, or a home or museum. He may be a world class artist, and it still is against the law. It also encourages those less artistic taggers to compete so you end up with crap graffiti surrounding the arguably better work.

If he wants to "beautify" a place, get permission, I am sure that many of the people would love to have him do so. But then, that would destroy the experience right, doing it legally?

Sure, that's part of it. Are we just slaves who mindlessly allow idiots to pass laws and dictate our lives?

Personally I don't even think about the law ever really. If I want to do something I do it, if not then not. The law doesn't come into my thinking at all. I think that's a healthy attitude and maybe (I don't know) Banksy feels the same.

I don't get this attitude actually. If it were followed more rigorously then it is then there would be no Ghandi, no Mandela, probably no UK or USA. Those plotters who tried to kill Hitler would be mere criminals.

Bit of lawbreaking is essential from time to time imo - no more so than now too.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #10 of 55
Banksy's kind of... a site-specific cartoonist / satirist really. But he is really good, and he's methodical, and skilled, and very clever.

Another one from San Francisco...



post #11 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Sure, that's part of it. Are we just slaves who mindlessly allow idiots to pass laws and dictate our lives?

Personally I don't even think about the law ever really. If I want to do something I do it, if not then not. The law doesn't come into my thinking at all. I think that's a healthy attitude and maybe (I don't know) Banksy feels the same.

I don't get this attitude actually. If it were followed more rigorously then it is then there would be no Ghandi, no Mandela, probably no UK or USA. Those plotters who tried to kill Hitler would be mere criminals.

Bit of lawbreaking is essential from time to time imo - no more so than now too.

This is an interesting perspective. I won't say that I entirely disagree (or entirely agree). However, I would ask what is your basis for determining which laws are fine to be broken and which should not be? do you have some decision-making framework for this? Is there a base morality that governs your thinking and actions? For example do you divide things along the lines of malum in se vs. malum prohibitum as a way to drive decision-making on these things?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #12 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is an interesting perspective. I won't say that I entirely disagree (or entirely agree). However, I would ask what is your basis for determining which laws are fine to be broken and which should not be? do you have some decision-making framework for this? Is there a base morality that governs your thinking and actions? For example do you divide things along the lines of malum in se vs. malum prohibitum as a way to drive decision-making on these things?

Well stated and asked.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #13 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This is an interesting perspective. I won't say that I entirely disagree (or entirely agree). However, I would ask what is your basis for determining which laws are fine to be broken and which should not be? do you have some decision-making framework for this? Is there a base morality that governs your thinking and actions? For example do you divide things along the lines of malum in se vs. malum prohibitum as a way to drive decision-making on these things?

The basis would be a personal one in each case and based on the individual's world-view.

For example; If I were a Christian in the erstwhile Iron-Curtain countries where Churches and Bibles were banned I would still undertake my expression of faith even though it were illegal.

Similarly the comment above about 'asking permission' to graffiti a wall strikes me as particularly asinine as the answer would of course be 'no' and should Banksy take this route and heed the answer then there would be no Banksy would there?

I actually feel that there is a huge amount of hypocrisy and/or blatant stupidity in such an approach as this 'conforming to the law' as the people who express this view are, more often than not, conservatives and as such, do not really have occasion to disagree with The Law as by definition, they by nature support it whatever it is; because they ARE Conservatives.

If there was a Pinko Commie take-over (to borrow from their library of treasured bogeys) which imposed new 'Leftie' statutes then you would soon see them breaking laws quick enough.

Another factor is of course that Right-wingers (ie Banksy's polar opposites and oft-times targets) do not actually 'get' art or culture and traditioanlly are incapable of creating it, so for them, it is a logical position (as far as they can be said to have such a thing) to prefer the wall (being property and therefore sacrosanct) to any decoration done TO a wall.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The basis would be a personal one in each case and based on the individual's world-view.

For example; If I were a Christian in the erstwhile Iron-Curtain countries where Churches and Bibles were banned I would still undertake my expression of faith even though it were illegal.

Similarly the comment above about 'asking permission' to graffiti a wall strikes me as particularly asinine as the answer would of course be 'no' and should Banksy take this route and heed the answer then there would be no Banksy would there?

You are obviously unaware of the many stories of people who did love his work and have paid for them. Also unaware of the property owners who were very upset when his work was removed. You are being asinine in not taking this into account. By your estimation then, the work is not worthwhile if it is not done illegally.

Quote:
I actually feel that there is a huge amount of hypocrisy and/or blatant stupidity in such an approach as this 'conforming to the law' as the people who express this view are, more often than not, conservatives and as such, do not really have occasion to disagree with The Law as by definition, they by nature support it whatever it is; because they ARE Conservatives.

If there was a Pinko Commie take-over (to borrow from their library of treasured bogeys) which imposed new 'Leftie' statutes then you would soon see them breaking laws quick enough.

Another factor is of course that Right-wingers (ie Banksy's polar opposites and oft-times targets) do not actually 'get' art or culture and traditioanlly are incapable of creating it, so for them, it is a logical position (as far as they can be said to have such a thing) to prefer the wall (being property and therefore sacrosanct) to any decoration done TO a wall.

Thank you for your opinion. You are entitled to it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #15 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Thank you for your opinion. You are entitled to it.

Thanks for allowing me to have one.... I really appreciate it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #16 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I actually feel that there is a huge amount of hypocrisy and/or blatant stupidity in such an approach as this 'conforming to the law' as the people who express this view are, more often than not, conservatives and as such, do not really have occasion to disagree with The Law as by definition, they by nature support it whatever it is; because they ARE Conservatives.

If there was a Pinko Commie take-over (to borrow from their library of treasured bogeys) which imposed new 'Leftie' statutes then you would soon see them breaking laws quick enough.

Another factor is of course that Right-wingers (ie Banksy's polar opposites and oft-times targets) do not actually 'get' art or culture and traditioanlly are incapable of creating it, so for them, it is a logical position (as far as they can be said to have such a thing) to prefer the wall (being property and therefore sacrosanct) to any decoration done TO a wall.

You're on quite a roll there.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Thanks for allowing me to have one.... I really appreciate it.

Doesn't matter what I think. Never has.

If only you would allow others the same courtesy.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #18 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Doesn't matter what I think. Never has.

If only you would allow others the same courtesy.

It doesn't make sense....can you try to elucidate??


Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You're on quite a roll there.


Yes...it's nearly time for my evening self-medication....though I do seem to have a penetrating insight into the way things are when not under it's influence these days wouldn't you say? Maybe I need to up the dose.

It all has the horrible ring of truth when stripped of the verbiage and hyperbole though doesn't it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #19 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes...it's nearly time for my evening self-medication....though I do seem to have a penetrating insight into the way things are when not under it's influence these days wouldn't you say? Maybe I need to up the dose.

It all has the horrible ring of truth when stripped of the verbiage and hyperbole though doesn't it?

Yes, I think upping the dosage might help.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #20 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It doesn't make sense....can you try to elucidate??

Really? It was not the clearest but it was not out of the realm of decipherable for one who really wants to understand. Both lines are responses to your words. They do not build off of each other in any way. Does that help?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #21 of 55
Banksy's wonderful. Pure art, done for the love of it, not dictated to by commercial interests, collectors, or the whims of the market place. Like sand paintings, they are here today and gone tomorrow. Great art harms nobody, but gets people to think.. (the PTB get a tad uppity about that). Here's one of my favorites:

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #22 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

...or the whims of the market place...

Ahhh "the whims of the market place." Isn't the "whim of the marketplace" merely a reflection of what people want? What they're willing to spend their hard earned money on?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #23 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ahhh "the whims of the market place." Isn't the "whim of the marketplace" merely a reflection of what people want? What they're willing to spend their hard earned money on?

"What people want".... Now there's a minefield of a statement. When do people really know what they want, re. art, music, or anything in the creative arena? If someone knows what s/he wants, then they want it.. then s/he will create it. Is this the same with the collective public, as well as individuals? Can the public be truly discerning en masse, or do they just tend to lap up what ever fashion du jour is presented, via big media? With enough skill (and/or deceptive, coercive and manipulative practices) in marketing, anyone can net some very healthy sales... but did the punters hpnestly *want* it? Also, the younger the market, the easier it is to push garbage. .. as the buyers have relatively little time/ experience to compare things... and are less aware of what true quality, or "genuineness" is.

And in politics, a genuine democracy can only function if the participants are educated in the issues. Clearly on that basis, we here in the US do not have a functioning democracy.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #24 of 55
Call me when he's drawn Muhammad on a mosque.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #25 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Call me when he's drawn Muhammad on a mosque.

Hope he does.

There is a long tradition of depictions of Muhammad in Islam - in fact it is a very Muslim thing to do.

The reason that there is any issue about it at all is basically because:

a) most people do not known anything at all about Islam and care even less - though strangely that does not seem to stop them opining about it at every opportunity.

b) The 'Islamists' who object to this are the same type of 'Muslims' who do myriad other un-Islamic things and are to a large extent (wittingly or unwittingly) seem to be hand in glove with Conservatives in as much as they are totally agreed on what Islam is but which in fact it is not.

Makes you wonder...

Meanwhile, while we're waiting for Banksy to get up to speed on his Islamic Art Historical traditions here's some more of my favourites from the apartheid wall in Israel like Sammi Jo's above:



What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #26 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ahhh "the whims of the market place." Isn't the "whim of the marketplace" merely a reflection of what people want? What they're willing to spend their hard earned money on?

Customer: "Can I see the menu please"

Waiter: "Yes, sir. We have steak, hamburger, beef, fillet, steak tartare, goujons of beef, roast beef, beef a l'orange, beef on the bone, beef fingers, beef dogs, beef chilli, beef in all sorts of wine and beef surprise"

Customer: "Wow! What choice, this is truly amazing...such a cornucopia of free choice to spend my hard-earned cash on...we are truly privileged to live in such a democracy where we can have anything we want."

Waiter: "The customer is King sir. The marketplace provides free choice of everything for everyone"

Customer: "Yes, thank God we don't live in Iran eh?"

Waiter: "God Bless America Sir".
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #27 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

"What people want".... Now there's a minefield of a statement.

Not really. No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

When do people really know what they want, re. art, music, or anything in the creative arena?

When they know what they want. What is so difficult to understand about this? Is it just the sometimes people want what you or I don't think they should want?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

If someone knows what s/he wants, then they want it.. then s/he will create it.

Not necessarily. This is a non sequitur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Can the public be truly discerning en masse, or do they just tend to lap up what ever fashion du jour is presented, via big media? With enough skill (and/or deceptive, coercive and manipulative practices) in marketing, anyone can net some very healthy sales... but did the punters hpnestly *want* it? Also, the younger the market, the easier it is to push garbage. .. as the buyers have relatively little time/ experience to compare things... and are less aware of what true quality, or "genuineness" is.

Your argument boils down to the idea that most other people are simply too dumb and gullible to really know what they want, but you are different.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Customer: "Can I see the menu please"

Waiter: "Yes, sir. We have steak, hamburger, beef, fillet, steak tartare, goujons of beef, roast beef, beef a l'orange, beef on the bone, beef fingers, beef dogs, beef chilli, beef in all sorts of wine and beef surprise"

Customer: "Wow! What choice, this is truly amazing...such a cornucopia of free choice to spend my hard-earned cash on...we are truly privileged to live in such a democracy where we can have anything we want."

Waiter: "The customer is King sir. The marketplace provides free choice of everything for everyone"

Customer: "Yes, thank God we don't live in Iran eh?"

Waiter: "God Bless America Sir".

Uh huh.

It's rather ironic that you would choose something like food or a restaurant as the basis to counter my claim given that, in America at least, this is one area where, at least from my observation, there is a vast array of choices in price, quality, cuisine, service levels, ambiance, etc. That's just in the realm of prepared food service establishments (restaurants). It doesn't even include the many other options that are available in super market, etc.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #29 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Customer: "Can I see the menu please"

Waiter: "Yes, sir. We have steak, hamburger, beef, fillet, steak tartare, goujons of beef, roast beef, beef a l'orange, beef on the bone, beef fingers, beef dogs, beef chilli, beef in all sorts of wine and beef surprise"

Customer: "Wow! What choice, this is truly amazing...such a cornucopia of free choice to spend my hard-earned cash on...we are truly privileged to live in such a democracy where we can have anything we want."

Waiter: "The customer is King sir. The marketplace provides free choice of everything for everyone"

Customer: "Yes, thank God we don't live in Iran eh?"

Waiter: "God Bless America Sir".

Oh Iran's not quite there yet because they haven't gone nuclear and still have oil.

Take the game above and play it with North Korea though or any other country in the world that doesn't have wealth it can pump out of the ground and sell to keep paying for bad policy.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #30 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Hope he does.

There is a long tradition of depictions of Muhammad in Islam - in fact it is a very Muslim thing to do.

The reason that there is any issue about it at all is basically because:

a) most people do not known anything at all about Islam and care even less - though strangely that does not seem to stop them opining about it at every opportunity.

b) The 'Islamists' who object to this are the same type of 'Muslims' who do myriad other un-Islamic things and are to a large extent (wittingly or unwittingly) seem to be hand in glove with Conservatives in as much as they are totally agreed on what Islam is but which in fact it is not.

Makes you wonder...

Meanwhile, while we're waiting for Banksy to get up to speed on his Islamic Art Historical traditions here's some more of my favourites from the apartheid wall in Israel like Sammi Jo's above:

Regardless of your reasoning about what he hasn't done and the associated claims of people not even involved in what he has done, he simply hasn't done it.

The claim is that he is making his mark. I flatly disagree.

Some of his stencils are cute and attempt to be a bit snarky or profound, but really since they are painted over, their impact is minimal. The reasoning within them goes no deeper than that of a bumper sticker.

If he wanted to truly make an impact, he would do more than provide a pressure release within the leftist establishment to go on hypocritically gorging themselves and growing rich while claiming to care about the poor and needy.

Banksy is no different than Jon Stewart. He gives you some sharp wit, some whimsy, an ability to make you feel like a bit of a rebel, all while typing away on your iPhone that Foxconn workers are killing themselves to make.

He's no different than Al Gore filling the atmosphere with his hot CO2, grabbing some awards and of course lining his pockets with hundreds of millions all while "caring" about the planet.

We don't have to think about such hypocrisies though. We're correct in our carings and concerns. The funny people and drawings said so.

Concern as a snapshot or easily digestible sound bite, how so utterly UNprofound. Folks like Banksy are part of what allows the Utopians to feel like the world is tolerable and getting better for the oppressed while the people applauding him don't have to look into a mirror and see they are the greedy oppressors. They can't possibly be that. They got the joke. They winked at the bumper sticker drawing. They get it. They care.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #31 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Uh huh.

It's rather ironic that you would choose something like food or a restaurant as the basis to counter my claim given that, in America at least, this is one area where, at least from my observation, there is a vast array of choices in price, quality, cuisine, service levels, ambiance, etc. That's just in the realm of prepared food service establishments (restaurants). It doesn't even include the many other options that are available in super market, etc.

Ok..I see I have to put it in much more simplistic terms. i was afraid of that.

You have a MENU and you call it CHOICE but you are actually only allowed to choose between options someone else chooses for you. Only allowed to choose from what THEY chose to be on the menu in the first place.

You see the menu and think you are so lucky because you cannot perceive all the millions of things they have left off - cannot understand that they have chosen for you. And for this 'freedom' people are prepared to die.

You can have any colour as long as it is black -it's an American motto no?

Quite frightening if you think about it...which is why people don't I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Regardless of your reasoning about what he hasn't done and the associated claims of people not even involved in what he has done, he simply hasn't done it.

He hasn't done a lot of things.

The fact you brought up a spurious issue of ill-perceived alleged Islamic Iconoclasm says more about you and your preoccupations than his art.

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The claim is that he is making his mark. I flatly disagree.

I know of no such claim. I think you miss his point entirely.

Quote:
Some of his stencils are cute and attempt to be a bit snarky or profound, but really since they are painted over, their impact is minimal. The reasoning within them goes no deeper than that of a bumper sticker.

I think you don't get it - which is natural enough.

Quote:
If he wanted to truly make an impact, he would do more than provide a pressure release within the leftist establishment to go on hypocritically gorging themselves and growing rich while claiming to care about the poor and needy.

He is making enough of an impact. And how do you know what he does? No-one knows who he is.

Quote:
Banksy is no different than Jon Stewart. He gives you some sharp wit, some whimsy, an ability to make you feel like a bit of a rebel, all while typing away on your iPhone that Foxconn workers are killing themselves to make.

Except Jon Stewart is a US LIberal. You may not know it but to someone from the UK with such a political stance - me for instance - what you call a 'hardline Commie' looks to us like someone veering slightly Right of Thatcher and just a little Left of Hitler.

Quote:
He's no different than Al Gore filling the atmosphere with his hot CO2, grabbing some awards and of course lining his pockets with hundreds of millions all while "caring" about the planet.

Except Al Gore is a multi-millionaire Capitalist.

And Banksy is an anarchist with numerous outstanding arrest warrants.

Quote:
We don't have to think about such hypocrisies though. We're correct in our carings and concerns. The funny people and drawings said so.

Why not think about them? I'm sure Banksy thinks Al Gore is a hypocritical Rightist wanker - as do I.

YOU seem to be the one obsessed with all these tossers.

Quote:
Concern as a snapshot or easily digestible sound bite, how so utterly UNprofound. Folks like Banksy are part of what allows the Utopians to feel like the world is tolerable and getting better for the oppressed while the people applauding him don't have to look into a mirror and see they are the greedy oppressors. They can't possibly be that. They got the joke. They winked at the bumper sticker drawing. They get it. They care.

Right

Probably best not to talk about injustice and the oppressed or those who want to change things. Not really your strong suit.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok..I see I have to put it in much more simplistic terms. i was afraid of that.

You have a MENU and you call it CHOICE but you are actually only allowed to choose between options someone else chooses for you. Only allowed to choose from what THEY chose to be on the menu in the first place.

You see the menu and think you are so lucky because you cannot perceive all the millions of things they have left off - cannot understand that they have chosen for you. And for this 'freedom' people are prepared to die.

You can have any colour as long as it is black -it's an American motto no?

Quite frightening if you think about it...which is why people don't I suppose.

Something is simplistic here, but it's not my comprehension.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #33 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Something is simplistic here, but it's not my comprehension.

So you'll no doubt be able to counter the examples then with contrary examples of your own won't you?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #34 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok..I see I have to put it in much more simplistic terms. i was afraid of that.

You have a MENU and you call it CHOICE but you are actually only allowed to choose between options someone else chooses for you. Only allowed to choose from what THEY chose to be on the menu in the first place.

You see the menu and think you are so lucky because you cannot perceive all the millions of things they have left off - cannot understand that they have chosen for you. And for this 'freedom' people are prepared to die.

You can have any colour as long as it is black -it's an American motto no?

Quite frightening if you think about it...which is why people don't I suppose.

I guess you've never just put down the menu and ordered. I have.

Quote:
He hasn't done a lot of things.

The fact you brought up a spurious issue of ill-perceived alleged Islamic Iconoclasm says more about you and your preoccupations than his art.

I was merely noting some art that would have impact versus bumper stickers that don't. I can't help it if you prefer the bumper stickers and insinuating insults to actual impact.

Quote:
I know of no such claim. I think you miss his point entirely.
I think you don't get it - which is natural enough.

Every article I read about it called characterized it with the term mark. Making his mark, leaving his mark, etc. Easy enough to find several articles on it so I guess it is you who have missed the point along with several articles noting it. Always appreciate the laughs you provide while insulting others related to your own shortcomings though. The irony kills.

Quote:
He is making enough of an impact. And how do you know what he does? No-one knows who he is.

Define enough. How much is an impact is it if no one knows who he is and what he does? That sounds like an impact of zero.

Quote:
Except Jon Stewart is a US LIberal. You may not know it but to someone from the UK with such a political stance - me for instance - what you call a 'hardline Commie' looks to us like someone veering slightly Right of Thatcher and just a little Left of Hitler.

You're so cute when you try to insult me and then make this about you.

Quote:
Except Al Gore is a multi-millionaire Capitalist.
And Banksy is an anarchist with numerous outstanding arrest warrants.

I could have sworn you just said no one knows who Banksy really happens to be. Couldn't he in fact be a she, or a millionaire capitalist. Couldn't he be the very release valve for those attempting to make change pacifying them with his little drawings while he reaps his millions? His mythology is part of his art. If he ends up being some banker with a sharp wit, then the whole folktale falls to pieces.

Quote:
Why not think about them? I'm sure Banksy thinks Al Gore is a hypocritical Rightist wanker - as do I.

Projection onto Banksy is exactly the point. You have a little pressure release value that simulates social change while actually providing none. Oh look how sharp the wit was that turned that no trespassing sign into a statement about Native Americans. Now we've all expressed disapproval without doing anything and can go back to our shows, pints and fish and chips. Let's see who's got talent next shall we?

Banksy is part of what turns you into sheep.
Quote:

YOU seem to be the one obsessed with all these tossers.

Right

Probably best not to talk about injustice and the oppressed or those who want to change things. Not really your strong suit.

Actually it is my strong suit for I educate them while folks like yourself give them a worldview that leaves them ignorant and declares them to be helpless victims which they then fulfill as their destiny. Really change could have occurred. I know it could if only they hadn't painted over that sharp social commentary posing as change by the likes of Banksy.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So you'll no doubt be able to counter the examples then with contrary examples of your own won't you?

Counter your simplistic characterization of choice in the marketplace? Are you serious?

Good God man! You are sitting there claiming that a person has no real choice and holding this out as a serious claim or argument. I'm not even sure how to reply to that. Are you looking around you? Are you seriously suggesting that people do not have a plethora of choices? Or is it simply your contention that the marketplace really works on a Producer: "Take it or leave it" basis in which consumers have no other options?

I must confess this is a stunning argument. It's so facile (and unsupportable by simple observation) that didn't think it was actually a serious one.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #36 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I guess you've never just put down the menu and ordered. I have.

Forgive me but you are not the benchmark..the chances of you straying too far from the acceptable trumpy are on a par with me voting Conservative.

Quote:
I was merely noting some art that would have impact versus bumper stickers that don't. I can't help it if you prefer the bumper stickers and insinuating insults to actual impact.

I think Banksy has a massive impact though. Is quite well known.

Quote:
Every article I read about it called characterized it with the term mark. Making his mark, leaving his mark, etc. Easy enough to find several articles on it so I guess it is you who have missed the point along with several articles noting it. Always appreciate the laughs you provide while insulting others related to your own shortcomings though. The irony kills.

Umm...didn't think you did Irony Trump!

Quote:
Define enough. How much is an impact is it if no one knows who he is and what he does? That sounds like an impact of zero.

Depends. He has inspired many guerilla artists. Not sure about the US but there is a massive underground in the UK who get up to all sorts of things.

Quote:
You're so cute when you try to insult me and then make this about you.

I know...it's a curse, it really is!

Quote:
I could have sworn you just said no one knows who Banksy really happens to be. Couldn't he in fact be a she, or a millionaire capitalist. Couldn't he be the very release valve for those attempting to make change pacifying them with his little drawings while he reaps his millions? His mythology is part of his art. If he ends up being some banker with a sharp wit, then the whole folktale falls to pieces.

No. He has been seen in profile and has a man's voice. I don't think millionaire capitalists are much given to painting 'Fuck the State' on people's garden walls.

But, there's nothing wrong with having millions. It's what you do with them. If Banksy had millions I have great faith he would use them 'creatively' in the service of anti-Conservatism and if he didn't well...he would be just another wanker like Al Gore as you say.

But that would mean nothing - it would not mean that all such characters would sell-out. I myself have some very creative plans for if I ever find myself with the odd disposable million.

Quote:
Projection onto Banksy is exactly the point. You have a little pressure release value that simulates social change while actually providing none. Oh look how sharp the wit was that turned that no trespassing sign into a statement about Native Americans. Now we've all expressed disapproval without doing anything and can go back to our shows, pints and fish and chips. Let's see who's got talent next shall we?

I don't think you get it. I know for a fact that Banksy has radicalized quite a few people. I know at least 4 now hardcore Lefties doing some interesting things got first turned on by Banksy. I think there are many.

You are just not in tune with the underground and what's happening on the streets Trumps...

Quote:
Banksy is part of what turns you into sheep.

Your view of sheep and how people are transmuted into such is very different to mine.

When I see evidence linking Banksy to unthinking and moronic right-wing subservience then I'll be the first to publically agree with you.

You have the right idea though - many apparently 'radical' figures do serve this function; one might cite the execrable Dalai Lama, that tosser Bono and your fave Obama.

Quote:
Actually it is my strong suit for I educate them while folks like yourself give them a worldview that leaves them ignorant and declares them to be helpless victims which they then fulfill as their destiny. Really change could have occurred. I know it could if only they hadn't painted over that sharp social commentary posing as change by the likes of Banksy.

I don't know many hopeless victims Trumpy, but then you and I don't move in the same circles I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Counter your simplistic characterization of choice in the marketplace? Are you serious?

Good God man! You are sitting there claiming that a person has no real choice and holding this out as a serious claim or argument. I'm not even sure how to reply to that. Are you looking around you? Are you seriously suggesting that people do not have a plethora of choices? Or is it simply your contention that the marketplace really works on a Producer: "Take it or leave it" basis in which consumers have no other options?

I must confess this is a stunning argument. It's so facile (and unsupportable by simple observation) that didn't think it was actually a serious one.


It's worse than I thought.

I am not saying that people do not haver a plethora of choices (third time).

I am saying that the available choices are chosen for them by someone else and hence no choice at all.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I am saying that the available choices are chosen for them by someone else and hence no choice at all.

In the very short term this might be true, but longer term it most certainly is not. This should be obvious by the fact that companies go out of business and products and services fail in the marketplace. They fail because they are not providing what is wanted by customers (according to the customer's wishes, desires, needs and values), and customer directs their purchasing to other things that they do want. The entrepreneur works to discover what people want and provide that. Those who do this successfully survive and profit. Those who fail to understand what people want (and provide that) fail.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #38 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

In the very short term this might be true, but longer term it most certainly is not. This should be obvious by the fact that companies go out of business and products and services fail in the marketplace. They fail because they are not providing what is wanted by customers (according to the customer's wishes, desires, needs and values), and customer directs their purchasing to other things that they do want. The entrepreneur works to discover what people want and provide that. Those who do this successfully survive and profit. Those who fail to understand what people want (and provide that) fail.

It's more complex though.

If someone is fed a certain diet that excludes X then after a while they will have no knowledge of, taste for or desire for X.

X to all intents and purpose will not exist so it will never appear on a menu and if it did then no-one would order it. this is not choice - it is engineering choice.

So what you say is true about the market being driven by people's wants but you fail to take into account the stage before - WHY those wants exist and HOW they became implanted and are maintained.

Where I am currently living there is no bagel shop. One opened once but went out of business very quickly because no locals wanted bagels.

I want them but I am a foreigner. So for me there is no choice. This is not on the menu. It is not on the menu for the locals either but they don't care - but this is not because bagels are bad or because they would not like them....it is because they are 'X' in the example above.

Now if someone were to introduce them correctly - with the proper marketing etc - then this could be changed. But it doesn't happen yet...maybe it might one day. This sort of thing often happens in business.

My point is though that there are certain things - and certain ideas and viewpoints - that are 'X' and will NEVER be 'marketed' so as people can be introduced to them because this is against the interests of those that administer and control the system.

And it is a system.

And you'd better believe that no matter how much choice you think there is on the menu or I think there isn't, someone else is controlling it.

And we have no choice in that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's more complex though.

If someone is fed a certain diet that excludes X then after a while they will have no knowledge of, taste for or desire for X.

X to all intents and purpose will not exist so it will never appear on a menu and if it did then no-one would order it. this is not choice - it is engineering choice.

I don't deny that such a dynamic exists. But this still comes back around to the claim that sammi_jo appears to be making which amounts to assuming that people are basically mindless lemmings who have no real independent thought of their own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Where I am currently living there is no bagel shop. One opened once but went out of business very quickly because no locals wanted bagels.

I want them but I am a foreigner. So for me there is no choice. This is not on the menu. It is not on the menu for the locals either but they don't care - but this is not because bagels are bad or because they would not like them....it is because they are 'X' in the example above.

What you say is true. But your quarrel is with the fact the most people simply don't want them, for whatever reason. It might be previous conditioning (as you suggest above) or it might be that many or most of the people in the area you live simply don't like them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Now if someone were to introduce them correctly - with the proper marketing etc - then this could be changed. But it doesn't happen yet...maybe it might one day. This sort of thing often happens in business.

Maybe. Maybe not. I don't agree that you can market people into liking and wanting things they just don't want and like. There's a whole "marketing and advertising is basically brainwashing" theory out there that doesn't really ring true from what I can see. Yes, it does have an influence, I don't claim otherwise. But, fundamentally, if someone doesn't want or like something, you aren't going to con them into wanting or liking it through "proper marketing."


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

My point is though that there are certain things - and certain ideas and viewpoints - that are 'X' and will NEVER be 'marketed' so as people can be introduced to them because this is against the interests of those that administer and control the system.

Those that "administer and control the system?" Who are these?


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

And you'd better believe that no matter how much choice you think there is on the menu or I think there isn't, someone else is controlling it.

Really? Who?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #40 of 55
This thread cracks me up. As someone who's had a fair amount of experience with the Fine Arts, I just have to laugh at the whole "Look! Look how profound a statement this vagabond artist makes! I mean...it's just so interesting."

I think it's obvious, transparent, self-indulgent garbage. Wow! You painted "cancelled" over "follow your dreams." Now that's deep. Not sure I can keep up there, champ.

As one of my college professors once said: "The problem with modern music and art is that it takes no talent to create it."
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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