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Adobe releases Flash Player 10.1 for Mac - Page 5

post #161 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, they still aren't ready for Mac OS and they aren't even close to ready for Linux, so it's not really surprising that they aren't ready for mobile, and they never will be ready.

It's so odd that would make a "250M devices claim by the END of 2012" claim.

First of all, the world will end by then. Second, that gives them over 2.5 years to get their act together. I have no doubt they will be shipping Flash on all the major Mobile OSes sans iOS, but that is a long time for users to go without Flash and a long time for open standards to make inroads.

How long until the newly released EVO 4G and other Android phones get v2.2? Apparently the Moto Droid won't get Flash because it has a WVGA display thus requiring an 800MHz Cortex-A8 or better, according to Adobe's specifications sheet.

For comparison, 2.5 years ago was December 2007...
  • We only on the EDGE iPhone.
  • I think it was only being sold in a total of 5 countries.
  • Mozilla was still on Firefox 2.0.0.11.
  • Chrome was still a year away from having the first stable Beta release on Windows only.
  • Safari 3.0.4 was out, had only been released on Windows for a few months as a Beta with the firs stable Windows version to be released in March 2008.
  • The Google created Open Handset Alliance consortium had just been established, but it was still almost a year later before the first Android phone, the T-Mobile G1(?), was hitting the shelves.
  • Apple was still being laughed at pundits and CEOSs that the iPhone's initial success and then lowering of the price was proof that it was a flash in the pan and that the industry was shaken up by its effort.

A lot has changed in 2.5 years. I have to imagine things will change even more rapidly in the next.
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post #162 of 265
Steve has said before that they asked Adobe to show them an acceptable version of Flash to run on the iPhone, and Adobe was not able to do it. Some people choose to not believe this, because it supports their assertion that Apple is being completely unreasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

thanks that answers that question. So apparently Adobe showed them something,
post #163 of 265
Very good point. Adobe is taking way too long, the industry is not going to sit around waiting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It's so odd that would make a "250M devices claim by the END of 2012" claim.

For comparison, 2.5 years ago was December 2007...

A lot has changed in 2.5 years. I have to imagine things will change even more rapidly in the next.
post #164 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

No one is attempting to change the subject. You are attempting to make the subject about delivery of video and nothing else, and in the process you are entirely missing the point of Groovetube's arguments. I suggest you go back and read his posts over and over until you get it. Flash is not just about video delivery, in fact it is only relatively recently in the context of its lifetime that Flash has been able to deliver video.

For all the things that Flash does apart from video, there is (sadly) currently no big exodus from Flash. If a small business goes to a web-developing-house to buy a website, you can bet that 90% of the time they'll be given a website that uses Flash, along with all the usability problems highlighted in my post I linked to earlier.

thanks for the help. These discussions tend to go totally around in circles, I end up looking like I'm only defending adobe, which isn't my real intention, it's really to talk rationally about this. There's pros and cons to either techs and viewpoints, I think it's more useful to recognize them honestly.

The truth is, the development platform is what I like most (not the plugin, gah...) and it's hard to get that across in all this. It'll be interesting to see what happens on that front.
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post #165 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Very good point. Adobe is taking way too long, the industry is not going to sit around waiting.

what exactly, is the... "industry" gonna do though?

Adobe is indeed taking their time. My theory is they need more power on a phone to make the player run better. 1 GHz is the entry level for them perhaps. My feeling is, we won't know if flash is going to really die, until about a year from now. Maybe a bit sooner perhaps.
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post #166 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

what exactly, is the... "industry" gonna do though?.

They're going to do exactly what they've been doing for the past 6 months - creating web sites and apps that don't rely on Flash.

Maybe you missed the announcements about Youtube, Hulu, Disney, CBS, NYTimes, and Farmville? And the web sites from automakers which now run on iPhones? Have you really missed all those announcements?

Face it - the industry is rapidly leaving Flash behind.
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post #167 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

what exactly, is the... "industry" gonna do though?

Adobe is indeed taking their time. My theory is they need more power on a phone to make the player run better. 1 GHz is the entry level for them perhaps. My feeling is, we won't know if flash is going to really die, until about a year from now. Maybe a bit sooner perhaps.

Industry is a blanket term for the way companies can connect with users via the internet. That should be self evident.

I expect every mobile OS except the iOS to be shipping with Flash by their "end of 2012" date. I expect every new Android phone being released in the latter half of this year onward to be shipping with Flash.

The problem for Adobe as seen many times over in this still nascent "industry" is that being shipped with doesn't mean being used. HTML5's Canvas element is a prime example of this in modern browsers. it's just too inefficient to be useful at this time. On top of that it doesn't have a proper development platform for it, but that is another issue.

On the flip side, other aspects of HTML, CSS, JS and native apps are efficient and effective options for users over Flash. I still have yet to see a Flash demo on an Android phone be valuable enough to the average user to warrant the browser/system slowdown and power drain associated with it.

Q: How did Adobe tackle the input issue with Flash app? They have the user tap and hold in the Flash window to switch access to Flash, but what about all those Flash games people are clamouring for that require the keyboard and/or mouse pointer to navigate? Does that require retooling from the developer or have they made Flash 10.1 clever enough that they account for these with on-screen buttons as layovers, for example?
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post #168 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Plus, gotApple has either ignorantly overlooked or was just being sleazy about Flash game numbers by ignoring all the native app games and the fact that Adobe had to rewrite Flash, not just to be more efficient, but to even work on a touch-based phone.

Native iOS apps work only on iOS devices. Their number is quite limited. And always controlled by one company. Flash games on the other hand, they work on OSX, Windows, Linux, Android 2.2, and next perhaps on your TV. Just to name some of the platforms that support Flash... Adobe even gives away it's open source Flex/Flash SDK for free.

It must suck to be a loyal follower of iSteve, especially now when Flash isn't going away if iSteve puts carrots into his ears and pretends that Flash is dying.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/new...kes-mac-os.ars

OSX market share 5.1%. iSteve's opinnion doesn't count that much here. Sorry boys.

Hey, I have iPhone 3G and 3GS, iPod Touch and new 2010 MacBookPro 15". But still I'm not blind and deaf.
post #169 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They're going to do exactly what they've been doing for the past 6 months - creating web sites and apps that don't rely on Flash.

Maybe you missed the announcements about Youtube, Hulu, Disney, CBS, NYTimes, and Farmville? And the web sites from automakers which now run on iPhones? Have you really missed all those announcements?

Face it - the industry is rapidly leaving Flash behind.

Now that's a joke. Because some companies make versions of their games/apps/systems for iPhone doesn't mean they are abandoning the 95% of their markets and support only iPhone. The world will continue to use Flash for a long time. Now much Apple has foothold in China? None. Zero. Nothing. How many PCs are there in China? A lot. They can all play Flash...
post #170 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Ah no because one of the links in the "10 games" collection is actually for a collection therefore the total is roughly 16.

That being said though there are far more and the best thing is that you can also download the source code much easier than for a Flash game.

So do you think people & companies will make many games for HTML5 if everybody can rip their source code and assets in three seconds? Where's the business model? It's like comparing the number of open source games written for Linux with the number of closed source games written for Windows.
post #171 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotApple View Post

Now that's a joke. Because some companies make versions of their games/apps/systems for iPhone doesn't mean they are abandoning the 95% of their markets and support only iPhone. The world will continue to use Flash for a long time. Now much Apple has foothold in China? None. Zero. Nothing. How many PCs are there in China? A lot. They can all play Flash...

Nobody ever said otherwise.

However, Flash for mobile is essentially nonexistent (the 0.2% of smart phones running Android 2.2 and with enough power to run Flash - badly - can be ignored).
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post #172 of 265
The same as what always happens, the industry will innovate and move on. There are numerous technologies that were once dominant-stagnated-and were left behind. Its a lot easier to replace Flash than replace floppy drives.

I'm not saying Flash is going to die. I've said quite the opposite that it will go on for quite some time. It simply will not continue to have the dominating presence it has had in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

what exactly, is the... "industry" gonna do though?

Adobe is indeed taking their time. My theory is they need more power on a phone to make the player run better. 1 GHz is the entry level for them perhaps. My feeling is, we won't know if flash is going to really die, until about a year from now. Maybe a bit sooner perhaps.
post #173 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Industry is a blanket term for the way companies can connect with users via the internet. That should be self evident.

I expect every mobile OS except the iOS to be shipping with Flash by their "end of 2012" date. I expect every new Android phone being released in the latter half of this year onward to be shipping with Flash.

The problem for Adobe as seen many times over in this still nascent "industry" is that being shipped with doesn't mean being used. HTML5's Canvas element is a prime example of this in modern browsers. it's just too inefficient to be useful at this time. On top of that it doesn't have a proper development platform for it, but that is another issue.

On the flip side, other aspects of HTML, CSS, JS and native apps are efficient and effective options for users over Flash. I still have yet to see a Flash demo on an Android phone be valuable enough to the average user to warrant the browser/system slowdown and power drain associated with it.

Q: How did Adobe tackle the input issue with Flash app? They have the user tap and hold in the Flash window to switch access to Flash, but what about all those Flash games people are clamouring for that require the keyboard and/or mouse pointer to navigate? Does that require retooling from the developer or have they made Flash 10.1 clever enough that they account for these with on-screen buttons as layovers, for example?

When it comes to a mobile phone, the little screen, I'm not sold on how great flash is there. Not until I see it in action a whole lot more. However, you might be discounting, the development platform. Also, when it comes to iPad like devices, that's where flash may be, a whole more useful, and css/JS just doesn't do all flash does.

This all assumes too flash will be as it is now, for mobile. I think it has to evolve. jmo.
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post #174 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

*cough* Safari *cough*

I guess in fairness I should add Chrome, Firefox, Opera, etc. Those apps are far more complex than Flash - and almost certainly some of them do not have the amount of resources that Adobe can afford.

Well, Firefox I would really only consider a native app on Windows, and I don't use Chrome or Opera on any platform (well, ok, I sometimes use Chrome on a "test" laptop at work, but only to verify that stuff already tested in Firefox and Safari works ok) so I can't really speak to how well they are implemented across platforms. Safari isn't really a fully native app on Windows, and I don't count the iOS versions as really distinct platforms from Mac OS. But, that being said, Mozilla, at least, has certainly done a better job of supporting Windows, Mac OS and Linux than Adobe has with Flash.
post #175 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, Firefox I would really only consider a native app on Windows, and I don't use Chrome or Opera on any platform (well, ok, I sometimes use Chrome on a "test" laptop at work, but only to verify that stuff already tested in Firefox and Safari works ok) so I can't really speak to how well they are implemented across platforms. Safari isn't really a fully native app on Windows, and I don't count the iOS versions as really distinct platforms from Mac OS. But, that being said, Mozilla, at least, has certainly done a better job of supporting Windows, Mac OS and Linux than Adobe has with Flash.

a browser is far more complex than the CS5 suite?



riiiiight.
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post #176 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

They're going to do exactly what they've been doing for the past 6 months - creating web sites and apps that don't rely on Flash.

Maybe you missed the announcements about Youtube, Hulu, Disney, CBS, NYTimes, and Farmville? And the web sites from automakers which now run on iPhones? Have you really missed all those announcements?

Face it - the industry is rapidly leaving Flash behind.

you just love talking, and talking, and talking.

I haven't missed anything. But I tend to see the bigger picture a little better it seems.

The "industry", which I work in, is still creating flash sites as fast and as many as a year ago. The er, "industry", is also creating lots of non flash sites.

yawn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The same as what always happens, the industry will innovate and move on. There are numerous technologies that were once dominant-stagnated-and were left behind. Its a lot easier to replace Flash than replace floppy drives.

I'm not saying Flash is going to die. I've said quite the opposite that it will go on for quite some time. It simply will not continue to have the dominating presence it has had in the past.

I agree. Though, for floppy drives, I thought they were kinda pretty dead by the time Steve Jobs called quits on them. It was a pretty safe bet.

Flash. Hmmm. Well, it ain't gonna happen very quickly if it -did- die. But I as I said before, I see some real shifts coming in that regard.
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post #177 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

a browser is far more complex than the CS5 suite?



riiiiight.

Of course, no one ever claimed that. What he implied was that a full-blown browser is more complex than Flash - which is a true statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

you just love talking, and talking, and talking.

I haven't missed anything. But I tend to see the bigger picture a little better it seems.

The "industry", which I work in, is still creating flash sites as fast and as many as a year ago. The er, "industry", is also creating lots of non flash sites.

yawn.

Oxygen deprivation?

4 months ago, you and your ilk were insisting that Apple was wrong and that Flash was essential for the Internet - and that no mobile device would survive without Flash. You cited a bunch of examples like Farmville, Youtube, Hulu, car dealers, Disney, and so on.

Since then, most of those sites have either released or announced a way for iPhone users to access their sites.

Lacking the integrity to admit that you were wrong, you dance around like a bunch of Microsoft weenies at a store opening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I agree. Though, for floppy drives, I thought they were kinda pretty dead by the time Steve Jobs called quits on them. It was a pretty safe bet.

Really? Then would you like to explain why every single other computer being sold at the time had floppy drives if floppies were already dead?

Just more of your inane revisionism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Flash. Hmmm. Well, it ain't gonna happen very quickly if it -did- die. But I as I said before, I see some real shifts coming in that regard.

Well, gee - the first sign of your approaching the real world.
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post #178 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Of course, no one ever claimed that. What he implied was that a full-blown browser is more complex than Flash - which is a true statement.




Oxygen deprivation?

4 months ago, you and your ilk were insisting that Apple was wrong and that Flash was essential for the Internet - and that no mobile device would survive without Flash. You cited a bunch of examples like Farmville, Youtube, Hulu, car dealers, Disney, and so on.

Since then, most of those sites have either released or announced a way for iPhone users to access their sites.

Lacking the integrity to admit that you were wrong, you dance around like a bunch of Microsoft weenies at a store opening.

Really? Then would you like to explain why every single other computer being sold at the time had floppy drives if floppies were already dead?

Just more of your inane revisionism.

Well, gee - the first sign of your approaching the real world.

no it isn't. How asinine can a statement get... Try learning something about the development platform before mouthing off. When a browser has fully developed a mature powerful language on it's own completely, let me know. But what has that got to do with anything really? Nothing. Right.

4 months ago, I wasn't here. Mouthing off again.

many computers had floppies, but most people were no longer using them. Steve Jobs simply recognized the obvious.

You seem to have an inherent problem with conversation. Calm down.
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post #179 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

4 months ago, you and your ilk were insisting that Apple was wrong and that Flash was essential for the Internet - and that no mobile device would survive without Flash. You cited a bunch of examples like Farmville, Youtube, Hulu, car dealers, Disney, and so on.

Look, you've made this "point" several times. No need to repeat yourself over and over. All you're doing is demonstrating an inability or unwillingness to understand what people are telling you.

Do you develop websites for a living? Or are you otherwise involved in the web developer community?

Just because 10 websites which used Flash now have non-flash alternatives, doesn't mean Groovetube's arguments are wrong.

As I said before, you are demonstrating an awesome lack of understanding as to how big the world wide web is. 10 websites is nothing. As mstone said earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone

The companies that have financial resources to rewrite all of their code to accommodate 1% on the market are probably banking on earning it back by selling stuff to the affluent iPhone user demographic. The average small company that simply needs a web presence will not see the need to spend that much money on such a small minority.
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post #180 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

Look, you've made this "point" several times. No need to repeat yourself over and over. All you're doing is demonstrating an inability or unwillingness to understand what people are telling you.

Do you develop websites for a living? Or are you otherwise involved in the web developer community?

Just because 10 websites which used Flash now have non-flash alternatives, doesn't mean Groovetube's arguments are wrong.

As I said before, you are demonstrating an awesome lack of understanding as to how big the world wide web is. 10 websites is nothing. As mstone said earlier:

No, YOU are missing the entire point. People were arguing about how the iPhone and iPad would never catch on because Flash was so critical. They listed a bunch of sites as being critical. Almost all the sites that were cited now have Flash-free versions. All those people whining about the iPHone's pending failure were completely wrong.
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post #181 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No, YOU are missing the entire point. People were arguing about how the iPhone and iPad would never catch on because Flash was so critical. They listed a bunch of sites as being critical. Almost all the sites that were cited now have Flash-free versions. All those people whining about the iPHone's pending failure were completely wrong.

You need to check out the title of this thread. The thread is about Flash, not about the iPhone. Clearly the iPhone is a success and will continue to be so. Glad we've got that sorted.
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post #182 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

You need to check out the title of this thread. The thread is about Flash, not about the iPhone.

I realize the article was so poorly written that it's hard to get through it, but since you apparently never finished reading it:

"Mobile beta for Android

A second beta release for Android 2.2 was also released, along with the claim by Adobe that more than 250 million smartphones would be able to run Flash Player by 2012, also phrased as 53% of the 300 million smartphones it expects to be sold two years from now.

Adobe also said it plans to bring Flash Player to HP's Palm OS, Microsoft's Windows Phone 7, Nokia's Symbian OS, and RIM's BlackBerry OS at some point in the future. Apple has passed on supporting a version of Flash Player for its iOS devices, with the company's chief executive Steve Jobs saying recently that Adobe failed to ever demonstrate a version of Flash Player that could perform well enough to include on the iPhone."
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post #183 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

a browser is far more complex than the CS5 suite?
... riiiiight.

Well, it's funny you should mention that because that seems to be another area users complain about platform parity, so it seems that this is a systemic problem at Adobe, and not just restricted to Flash.

But, I don't recall ever making any comparisons between browsers and Adobe's CS apps. In the post that you quoted, I was addressing the cross platform success, in terms of native appearance and behavior on various platforms, of several browsers, and indicated that it wasn't really that great. I'm really not sure how you equated that with the content of your response.
post #184 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

I realize the article was so poorly written that it's hard to get through it, but since you apparently never finished reading it:

"Mobile beta for Android

A second beta release for Android 2.2 was also released, along with the claim by Adobe that more than 250 million smartphones would be able to run Flash Player by 2012, also phrased as 53% of the 300 million smartphones it expects to be sold two years from now.

Adobe also said it plans to bring Flash Player to HP's Palm OS, Microsoft's Windows Phone 7, Nokia's Symbian OS, and RIM's BlackBerry OS at some point in the future. Apple has passed on supporting a version of Flash Player for its iOS devices, with the company's chief executive Steve Jobs saying recently that Adobe failed to ever demonstrate a version of Flash Player that could perform well enough to include on the iPhone."

Is this somehow meant to prove that I'm wrong when I state that this thread is about Flash rather than about the iPhone? If so, you fail at logic.

This thread has never been about whether or not the iPhone is going to fail because it doesn't run Flash. It's just in the last few posts that you've attempted to change your argument when it became apparent you were talking nonsense about the demise of Flash on the web.
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post #185 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

... What he implied was that a full-blown browser is more complex than Flash - which is a true statement. ...

I did not actually mean to imply that. A browser is a complex piece of software -- rendering engine, javascript engine, etc. -- but I'm not actually sure that it's more complex than Flash, which obviously has it's own version of these things.

My point was that for anyone, writing a fully native app that runs well on multiple platforms is a daunting task. Too daunting, perhaps. And this is one of the key problems that Adobe's "Flash everywhere" strategy comes up against. They haven't demonstrated that they can do it on three "desktop" platforms, so why should anyone give any credence to the idea that Adobe can actually cover an additional, how many is it, at least 3 or 4 of significance, platforms?

They can't. That's why I referred to it as a house of cards. The whole strategy is doomed to failure and will crumble under its own weight.
post #186 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

This thread has never been about whether or not the iPhone is going to fail because it doesn't run Flash.

No. It's about how Flash for mobile devices is a fail.
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post #187 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No. It's about how Flash for mobile devices is a fail.

whatever. Anyone who's read this thread from the beginning knows that the arguments have revolved around Flash in general; and more specifically: about its performance (on the Mac and on mobile devices); about how it compares to HTML5; and about whether or not it is dying, and if so, how quickly.

On the latter point, you made several attempts to argue that it is more-or-less already dead; you are wrong.
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post #188 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Though, for floppy drives, I thought they were kinda pretty dead by the time Steve Jobs called quits on them. It was a pretty safe bet.

Flash. Hmmm. Well, it ain't gonna happen very quickly if it -did- die. But I as I said before, I see some real shifts coming in that regard.

They were far from dead, they were still included in every or nearly every PC and were still commonly used to move files between systems. What was seen is that HDDs were getting larger, networks getting faster and more common, OS and apps getting better at connecting PCs and CD coming in as the shiny future of removable media.

But we can't really compare HW to SW because SW can evolve to meet changes while HW usually can't. Ecen now with CD to DVD to Blu-ray it's still a slow, power hungry component that takes up a great deal of space for the amount of use it's typically gets. I think we'll see Apple completely remove the ODD from their netbooks before too long but I see end in sight for Apple removing Flash from Mac OS X.


PS: Factoid: Sony will finally stop producing floppy discs in March, 2011.
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post #189 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

[Floppy drives] were far from dead ...

Yes, people would hardly have been declaring Apple totally insane for dropping them if they were obviously on their death bed.
post #190 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

... On the latter point, you made several attempts to argue that it is more-or-less already dead; you are wrong.

It's not dead yet, but it is terminally ill.
post #191 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, people would hardly have been declaring Apple totally insane for dropping them if they were obviously on their death bed.

I think a lot of people were concerned at the time, not because they had dropped the floppy, but that they hadn't provided a direct alternative such as a zip drive or a super-floppy (both proprietary standards, the latter being backwards-compatible with standard floppies whilst offering up to 120 MB storage on "super-floppies" which were physically similar sized disks).

Of course, as it turned out it wasn't a problem. Also of note is that it took them a while longer to drop floppies from their other machines.
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post #192 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post

I think a lot of people were concerned at the time, not because they had dropped the floppy, but that they hadn't provided a direct alternative such as a zip drive or a super-floppy (both proprietary standards, the latter being backwards-compatible with standard floppies whilst offering up to 120 MB storage on "super-floppies" which were physically similar sized disks).

Of course, as it turned out it wasn't a problem. Also of note is that it took them a while longer to drop floppies from their other machines.

I think the only legitimate complaint was, the lack of a built-in or included option for a physcial file copy. Even when they launched the iMac with a CD-ROM drive in August 1998 they didn't even have an option for CD-RW until February 2001.

Segueing the conversation a bit, the situation now with optical drives is completely different. I don't think we'll go more than 2 more MBP revisions without the optical drive being removed. With the 13" MBP, they can't go with C2D much longer and if they do they are stuck with an Intel HD iGPU unless they make more room. Either shrink the battery or get rid of the ODD.
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post #193 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I did not actually mean to imply that. A browser is a complex piece of software -- rendering engine, javascript engine, etc. -- but I'm not actually sure that it's more complex than Flash, which obviously has it's own version of these things.

My point was that for anyone, writing a fully native app that runs well on multiple platforms is a daunting task. Too daunting, perhaps. And this is one of the key problems that Adobe's "Flash everywhere" strategy comes up against. They haven't demonstrated that they can do it on three "desktop" platforms, so why should anyone give any credence to the idea that Adobe can actually cover an additional, how many is it, at least 3 or 4 of significance, platforms?

They can't. That's why I referred to it as a house of cards. The whole strategy is doomed to failure and will crumble under its own weight.

perhaps I mistakenly quoted you as implying that. It appears it was jragosta which I guess isn't a surprise. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, people would hardly have been declaring Apple totally insane for dropping them if they were obviously on their death bed.

I don't know who those people were. But floppies was dying fast before Mr. Jobs said anything about it. There were enough alternatives (like usb floppies I believe) that if someone really wanted it they could have it. It wasn't like STeve Jobs said "you're NOt allowed to have floppies on os x!"
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post #194 of 265
It was 1998, optical media slot was still very new and expensive. The far majority of computers still had floppy drives, even though it was inevitable that floppy was over.

Apple totally abandoned floppy while it was still widely used. At the time people thought they were crazy. Its only in revision that it doesn't seem so cray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I agree. Though, for floppy drives, I thought they were kinda pretty dead by the time Steve Jobs called quits on them. It was a pretty safe bet.
post #195 of 265
I'm the one who brought up the comparison. It was more to say that its easier to get everyone en mass to adopt new software than it is to get everyone to buy new computers and adopt new hardware standards. Especially when it involves buying new peripherals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

But we can't really compare HW to SW because SW can evolve to meet changes while HW usually can't.
post #196 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Its not an argument its the reality of the situation. Do you not use the web? Are you that blind that you don't understand the vast majority of websites use Flash for streaming video and they are not using HTML5.

Besides why is it when someone says they use something, if it doesn't fit into the cookie cutter mold of what Apple wants you to use then your a troll.

Maybe you should just cut and paste becasue again you commented and said nothing.

Try using any local news or weather site and not have Flash as a plugin. See how far you get. Try using sites like VEVO or any of the other hundred that stream music without Flash.

Its not like this is something made up. For you to think Flash still doesn't totally dominate the web, you are living in a cave.

See the difference with you is you modify your behavior based on Apples rules, you play in their little arena, within the walls they create and you allow them to think for you. Which in some sick way makes you happy.

you missed the point as usual and solipsism said it best and I will leave it at that. Funny how you stopped commenting after these replies below. Reason for my comment was like Microsoft with you favourite argument point '99% marketshare' it is true, but really getting old and actually does discuss the changes that are occurring in the market. So that's why it old and crap, no new factual data.

As for the insults say again 'same old crap and same old behaviour from you, so I do not expect better'

Quote:
Originally Posted by hezetation View Post

Vast majority uses flash cause no one is forcing them to change. Remember when the vast majority of the web used ActiveX plugins? Man those were ugly times.

Companies have a lot vested in flash, it's true, but the reality is that most flash on the web is used for advertising, other services already have big plans to move into HTML5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I still don't see how your argument supports the claim that Apple made a mistake eliminating floppy drives from the iMacs... oh, wait, this is about Flash. Well, same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by masternav View Post

Unfortunately its still on my ignore list - but hey at least I can see you contribute. On the other hand perhaps the commenter you quoted doesn't spend all of their time on porn sites which is where the majority of Flash (outside of ads of course) resides on the intertubes. But you knew that. Didn't you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Sure, more sites use Flash over HTML5 for video streaming, but even in the last few months that is changing. We have some offering an option for HTML5, others that have long sense started offering an HTML5 version for smartphones or a dedicated app, and others that have stated they will offer a non-Flash version.

I don't have wait until the milk jug to be empty before I know it's time to buy more milk. I can see the trend and Flash for video streaming is losing its hold. Adobe can try to salvage the video streaming it's lost to the largest growing sector of the market, but it doesn't look good. If you want fast and efficient video streaming to a phone, then Flash is not the answer. If you're more concerned with building once and not caring about mobile user eyeballs than Flash will be just fine.

For the other aspects of Flash it'll be a long time before webcode can begin to compete any of many levels, but it seems that isn't much of an issue either. It seems Flash apps are moving to dedicated apps for mobiles. All Flash splash pages are a thing of the past (thankfully) so that pretty much leaves businesses that use a Flash page for a sexy look and feel, but these aren't using the hardcore features of Flash and can be replaced with modern webcode with relative ease. But these sites don't matter much to the web as a whole if I'm looking for a fancy restaurant I will likely never use their website, Flash-based or otherwise.

In the end, even when Flash running on every modern mobile OS (sans iOS) and is pre-installed on every smartphone phone from the factory there is still the hurdle of usefulness to overcome. Like those super feature phones" of Japan and elsewhere and video conferencing that have been on phones for many years, it's not about technically having the capability, it's about it being a viable technology for the device. Nothing I've seen tells me Adobe has tackled that problem.
post #197 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I don't know who those people were. But floppies was dying fast before Mr. Jobs said anything about it. There were enough alternatives (like usb floppies I believe) that if someone really wanted it they could have it. It wasn't like STeve Jobs said "you're NOt allowed to have floppies on os x!"

Just to indicate out how faulty your memory is on this particular issue, I will point out that the original iMac did not run OS X at release. It ran System 8, and OS X wasn't released yet.
post #198 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

Adobe is indeed taking their time. My theory is they need more power on a phone to make the player run better. 1 GHz is the entry level for them perhaps. My feeling is, we won't know if flash is going to really die, until about a year from now. Maybe a bit sooner perhaps.

Yes, I think the pinheads that run Adobe never read Herb Sutter's 'The Free Lunch is Over,' and figured that faster CPUs were going to continue to bail them out.

As they say, better late than never. And we'll see if 10.1 cements Flash long-term, or is 'too late.'

If Google can get WebM going, I think H264 will be forced to grant permanent free-license (instead of conditional) and then the HTML5 parade can actually get under way. In that case, Flash won't have video to hold it in place, and will only have their design/flexibility advantages over HTML5/CSS/JS.
post #199 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

No. It's about how Flash for mobile devices is a fail.

It has not yet been released. How can it be a fail?
post #200 of 265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post

It has not yet been released. How can it be a fail?

Because it hasn't been released?

It's been 3 years since the iPhone came out and there STILL isn't a version of Flash for mobiles. That's why the industry is rushing to find alternatives (remember all those sites I listed?). Adobe blew it - the mobile industry has moved on without them.

BTW, it's really rather funny when you Flash shills insist that Flash is available for mobile devices on one hand (citing a slow, buggy beta that has been circulating for a few months) but when it suits your purposes, you say that it's not there yet so we have to wait even longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

perhaps I mistakenly quoted you as implying that. It appears it was jragosta which I guess isn't a surprise. Sorry.

No, it's NOT a surprise that you're making up lies about me. I never said that, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube View Post

I don't know who those people were. But floppies was dying fast before Mr. Jobs said anything about it. There were enough alternatives (like usb floppies I believe) that if someone really wanted it they could have it. It wasn't like STeve Jobs said "you're NOt allowed to have floppies on os x!"

Nice revisionism-you're 100% wrong. EVERY OTHER COMPUTER VENDOR had floppies on every computer they sold when Apple launched the iMac. EVERY ONE. Do some searching and read the computer press at the time. Virtually every article labeled the iMac as a fail because of its lack of a floppy drive. Given your level of 'discourse' and your lack of knowledge of what happened even as recently as the mid-90's, I'm guessing that you're a teenager who was barely out of diapers at the time.

And, as has been pointed out, the iMac wasn't released with OS X. You really should stick to discussing topics you know something about.
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