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Apple manufacturer Foxconn may relocate some Chinese factories - Page 2

post #41 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post


Fair trade...not free trade! The US should start tariffs on all goods not produced in countries with a similar wage structure, similar pollution controls, and similar trade practices. That would bring the jobs home.

Do that and watch how quickly US export markets dry up.

While a case can be made for labour conditions, pollution controls, etc. it's very difficult to argue that wages should be the same in every country and the US should only trade with countries who have similar wage levels.

Wages are a competitive advantage. Get over it. Some countries have oil. And some have people who can work for $10 per day.

By the way, you might want to start by equalizing wages across the entire USA first. See how well that goes down in those 'Right to Work' states.
post #42 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by primedetailer View Post

You have to be kidding. Do you have any idea what the American workers in this country are going through. Yes, I would pay considerably more if products were made in this country and there would be a lot more who could afford to make products made in this country if they weren't making minimum wage. What in the world do you think the people are doing now that used to work in our factories? Do you think everyone has become a computer consultant or programmer?

Why the hell should I have to pay 3-4 times more for an Apple product just so a couple of Americans can have a job?
post #43 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by masternav View Post



Go ahead and be the first in line for products that cost double or triple their current costs. Also let's leave the poorer countries to fend for themselves and not give them an opportunity to build better economies for themselves.

And yeah, there's all kinds of corruption and exploitation happening in these countries, I know. Old news. Time to take off the US-centric blinders and see the world for what it is. My Fortune 50 company has to support operations globally, so I get to see this first hand. Once you get out a bit and actually see what the world is really like - then we can talk.

Who says you have to increase the cost of the unit/product? You could just keep the price the same and just cut into the profit margin.
post #44 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Suicide rates at Foxconn are lower than the average for China -- unless SJ was lying in his ATD interview with Mossberg.

Yes that is true, I think the issue though is that the suicides foxconn are having are most likely all work related, not other issues such as personal life but all work related stresses.
post #45 of 68
I think apple should make some products here (assembly!, not mobos, RAM, etc) and just charge a higher price for them. There would gladly be many that would pay. I would. They could use it for marketing how they're helping out American workers.

I'm surprised that airlines in the US don't use where their maintenance is performed as a marketing ploy. You should fly with us because we have our maintenance done in the US not China or Dominican Republic, etc.
post #46 of 68
Bring those factories to California. We are so desperate for jobs, that $293 a month will do a lot of good. You know, like pay mortgage on our million dollar homes, send our children to private schools since the Republicans are decimating our public school system. And don't forget we need to buy an iPhone too. And if $293/month can do all that, it must 1610 not 2010.

But then, we Californians don't want to live like the poor Chinese. And we sure don't want to work like them. So no Apple factory for us. Damn!!
post #47 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

Who says you have to increase the cost of the unit/product? You could just keep the price the same and just cut into the profit margin.

This.

Apple's profit margins are obscene and they have over $40 billion dollars in the bank. They could earn a tremendous amount of good will and positive press by reopening assembly factories here and the US and reaping $10-20 less gravy from each item they sell. Truly a great way to gain some untapped mindshare.

But they won't.
post #48 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveTurkey View Post

This.

Apple's profit margins are obscene and they have over $40 billion dollars in the bank. They could earn a tremendous amount of good will and positive press by reopening assembly factories here and the US and reaping $10-20 less gravy from each item they sell. Truly a great way to gain some untapped mindshare.

But they won't.

Think it would be positive press? Think again. All of the groups that give a voice to the interests of those in developing countries would quickly highlight how unconscionable a move it is to take away jobs from those in China who work hard and valued their job. Press will run those comments widely. Then we'll hear about a renewed commitment to a pegged yuan and so on...
post #49 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Suicide rates at Foxconn are lower than the average for China -- unless SJ was lying in his ATD interview with Mossberg.

Suicide rates at Foxconn are lower than suicide rates in the United States of America.
post #50 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noliving View Post

Yes that is true, I think the issue though is that the suicides foxconn are having are most likely all work related, not other issues such as personal life but all work related stresses.

This is not true. Read the Bloomberg article.

Quote:
Common problems are homesickness, financial woes, lovers quarrels and spats with co-workers, Geng said.

Pretty much the same reasons for suicide anywhere.
post #51 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24 View Post

Seems to me that Foxconn, not the Chinese people, are the problem. If they treated their workers better, made them work reasonable shifts, and paid better, maybe this wouldn't be an issue.

Have you ever worked in the orient? Some countries, China, Korea treat workers like they are slaves. Others, the culture won't tolerate this type of management. Foxcon is about as Chinese as you can get. That's not going to change and the countries they mention won't put up with their management style.

I agree with another comment, this is all smoke and pr. There's too much available labor in China and it's suited to Foxcon's management style.
post #52 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is not true. Read the Bloomberg article.



Pretty much the same reasons for suicide anywhere.

To be pulled away from your family to survive (family cannot follow, no housing), be subjected to 12 hour work days, being treated like a slave, being lied to and cheated at every turn and being paid a pittance for this, you think it's not all job related?

The Chinese are using the same labor pool that built our railroads. And employ the same management style. Perhaps its the evolution of industrial society. What ever it is, it's not pretty.

While it's good to see economic progress in China, the transition is filled with consequences. A Walmart mentality in this country is one of the leading causes and a leading cause in our own problems with money management and no manufacturing jobs.
post #53 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye Forget View Post

Foxcon is about as Chinese as you can get.

It's a Taiwanese company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye Forget View Post


While it's good to see economic progress in China, the transition is filled with consequences. A Walmart mentality in this country is one of the leading causes and a leading cause in our own problems with money management and no manufacturing jobs.

A reduction in local manufacturing is actually a sign of the country's progress in that it's moving up the transformation curve. Where it occurs it also has harsh transitional effects but it's a positive in that it shows that the things that create jobs in the first place (investment) are being actively managed to pursue more fast growing business thus creating new jobs.
post #54 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is not true. Read the Bloomberg article.



Pretty much the same reasons for suicide anywhere.

If you actually read the article you just proved my point. It is all work related that is why there is so much press because although the suicide rate is low they are all pretty much killing themselves over the same reason and that is work.

Quote:
“Life is meaningless,” said Ah Wei, his fingernails stained black with the dust from the hundreds of mobile phones he has burnished over the course of a 12-hour overnight shift. “Everyday, I repeat the same thing I did yesterday. We get yelled at all the time. It’s very tough around here.”

That sounds work related to me.

Quote:
“It’s hard to make friends because you aren’t allowed to chat with your colleagues during work,” Liu said at Shenzhen Kang Ning Hospital where he was seeking help for insomnia. “Most of us have little education and have no skills so we have no choice but to do this kind of job. I feel no sense of achievement and I’ve become a machine.”

That sounds work related to me.

Quote:
Tian Yu fit Geng’s description. Tian, 18, left her parents and a life of growing sweet corn and rice in Hubei province, central China, to find a job in Shenzhen after graduating from high school, her father, Tian Jiandang, said. She was isolated and without friends at work, the elder Tian said. She worked at Foxconn for about a year.

On March 17, she jumped from the fourth story of her dormitory in the Longhua complex. She survived and was in a coma for almost two months. Her father still doesn’t know why she jumped and is afraid to ask because he thinks it will upset her, he said in an interview by her hospital bed. Foxconn is paying for her medical care.


Man I wonder why she jumped, you know I think it sounds work related, not being able to socialize working 12 hour shifts a minimum of 72 hours a week, never going home because you work to many hours so you can't go home. You know I wonder why she felt isolated at place that has thousands of people. I mean don't you think it is a little strange that she could feel isolated and without friends with that many people there at the factory she works?

Come on dude I think it is a little obvious in the article that the problems people are killing themselves over has to do with working conditions, in fact the entire article you cited and which I'm quoting basically says it's because of working conditions.

Quote:
The additional money may not be enough to stem the suicides, according to Xiao Qi, a college graduate who works at Foxconn in product development. He earns 2,000 yuan a month, yet gets no joy from his job, he said.

“I do the same thing every day; I feel empty inside,” said Xiao, who said he has considered suicide. “I have no future.”
post #55 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwik View Post

Do you really think an American would last 5 minutes doing a job that makes young Chinese workers kill themselves? Just sayin'. Think before you post.

BULLSHIT WE COULD AS AMERICANS RUN ANY COMPUTER PLANT AS WELL AS ANYONE ELSE ;

sadly in the usa we protect our workers in many ways to sunday..

in red china coal worker.s die by the thousands
in the usa they die by the dozen
i wonder why????

and red china still kills its dissenting voices
they even mail a bill for the bullet to the family

as good as apple is there is blood on its hands
slave labor is slave labor


one dollar a day is the wage in red commie china

shame on all of us

shame


9
give some jobs back to americans
level the playing field with workers rights
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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post #56 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveTurkey View Post

This.

Apple's profit margins are obscene and they have over $40 billion dollars in the bank. They could earn a tremendous amount of good will and positive press by reopening assembly factories here and the US and reaping $10-20 less gravy from each item they sell. Truly a great way to gain some untapped mindshare.

But they won't.


no nononjonono

theyw ill
they will

they will

green peace slap steve around a bit and presto apple is so goddamn green now i wanna puke

so appl will wake and move its factories around
i hope


peace

9
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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beatles
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post #57 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post

Hey, Apple! How about moving the manufacturing HOME to the UNITED STATES! Gee, ever thought of that? We have people who need JOBS here, morons!

Sure, Foxconn would be happy to relocate 800,000 Chinese to the US.

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post #58 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwatson View Post

You are aware that Foxconn's suicide rate is below that of the Chinese national average?

"Attention Foxconn employees, we are upping our quota of mandatory suicides to be more in line with national averages. Have a nice day." \

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post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

I am curious about a few things.

Sure the suicide rate at Foxconn is lower than the Chinese average. But is the suicide rate lower than industry average for example?

I don't think the outcry is unusual. Walmart's got something like a million employees in the US. If they had this many suicides in so short a timeframe, you can bet the media and government would be all over it. Nobody would be suggesting it's okay just because the suicide rate was lower than average. It's still highly unusual for one employer to have that many suicides, even if the rate is lower than average.

Anyway, maybe taking away the financial incentives will help them curb the suicide rate.

As for moving, India would be a great place for them to move. Though I doubt they'd get away with the same working conditions there. India is a democracy after all. And unions are fairly active there. At the same time though, India does tend to have large numbers of skilled workers available and Apple is one of the few IT companies not to have a significant presence in India. It would make sense to set up shop in what will some day be the largest consumer market in the world.

I think the outcry over working conditions is more indicative of growing workers rights issues and a clear indicator that the global economy is having a deleterious effect on Chinese employment.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

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post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I think the outcry over working conditions is more indicative of growing workers rights issues and a clear indicator that the global economy is having a deleterious effect on Chinese employment.

Deleterious only from the point of the employer. Beneficial from the perspective of the worker. Of course as a free-market economist, I could have expected you to see it as a net negative.
post #61 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by benice;

It's a Taiwanese company.

Check your history books or read a newspaper. It was China, it's inhabited by Chineese and it will again be part of China. Don't confuse political divisions with culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benice;

A reduction in local manufacturing is actually a sign of the country's progress in that it's moving up the transformation curve. Where it occurs it also has harsh transitional effects but it's a positive in that it shows that the things that create jobs in the first place (investment) are being actively managed to pursue more fast growing business thus creating new jobs.

Where is the proof? Let's look at two societies with uncompetitive labor rates, Europe and the US. Both have high unemployment rates and large fiscal deficits. In our case, we have three employment pools. The government, construction and service businesses. Take a look at construction and service to get an idea how much value they add and how employment is doing. Take away credit availability from consumers and both of these businesses suffer. Without manufacturing -- creation of value people are willing to invest in -- you have an unsustainable economy.
post #62 of 68
What is happening at Foxconn is just one example of a culture that is now institutionalized throughout China. This is a country that can bulldoze entire neighbourhoods literally overnight to make way for roads, buildings, etc. This is a country where the government does not allow any dissenting voices - period.

The only reason why stories come out from Foxconn, is because of more intense scrutiny on Foxconn because of its massive relationship with Apple. If you dig deep into literally any facet of China, you will see similar things happening - and in a lot of cases, it will not be suicides - a lot worse. Former communist Europeans might have forgotten the dreaded midnight knock, but such things still happen in China, even today.

This is the ugly side of the marvel that is Chinese growth - if you are willing to ignore how growth is achieved, it looks good. But when you look at the whole picture you start to think if this is all worth it.

Sometimes, when I think about China and India, I am impressed a lot more by the India story. India has pathetic infrastructure compared to China. Companies in India have to make arrangements for EVERYTHING, starting from Power Supply, Water Supply, Commuting arrangements for employees, etc. Absolutely nothing provided by the government is of acceptable standard for business. Workers are organized into unions, and manage to extract better working conditions and wages under threat of strikes. Land acquisition for any project is a nightmare in India. Politically, there is always a lot of uncertainty. Despite all these hindrances, India comes close to Chinese growth already, and even surpasses China on some parameters. I wonder what India is capable of, if better infrastructure is in place! Even today, some Indian companies are able to successfully compete with the Chinese.

In a lot of ways, the China and India story is similar to the hare and tortoise story. The more China grows economically, its economic model gets incompatible with its political and social model. This is bound to create friction that will be difficult to manage. On the other hand, the more India grows economically, it is likely to reduce friction politically and socially. In the long run, India's model is more sustainable than China's.

Of course, this is not to say that everything is hunky dory in India. India also has its share of issues do deal with - just that India's issues look more manageable over a period of time than China's.
post #63 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Deleterious only from the point of the employer. Beneficial from the perspective of the worker. Of course as a free-market economist, I could have expected you to see it as a net negative.

Deleterious from the point of view of both employer and employee. How are fewer/no jobs a good thing? As a function of a free market, jobs must reduce or disappear if there is no demand. No one enjoys unemployment, but without the ability to respond to market demand, you have... well... our current economy.

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post #64 of 68
[QUOTE=Eye Forget;1651858]

Check your history books or read a newspaper. It was China, it's inhabited by Chineese and it will again be part of China. Don't confuse political divisions with culture.





Taiwan was briefly part of China, but the colonization by Japan was much longer, although primarily, it was colonized by the Dutch. Yes, the former Dutch colony of Formosa is heavily Chinese (as many places are, including parts of New York and California). That does not mean it is in China. Will Taiwan join China someday, yes I believe so. But it's because of future ties, not past ties.
post #65 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye Forget View Post



Where is the proof? Let's look at two societies with uncompetitive labor rates, Europe and the US. Both have high unemployment rates and large fiscal deficits. In our case, we have three employment pools. The government, construction and service businesses. Take a look at construction and service to get an idea how much value they add and how employment is doing. Take away credit availability from consumers and both of these businesses suffer. Without manufacturing -- creation of value people are willing to invest in -- you have an unsustainable economy.

I agree that a reduction in money affects all economic activity (including construction and services). You say though an economy is unsustainable without manufacturing and yet this very quick chart shows that services are adding more and more value. Jobs lost in manufacturing are often created here.

post #66 of 68
I suggest that everyone checks out this discussion at the NYT about this issue from experts in the field. It isn't as great as many of you seem to believe as evidenced by your overplayed "the suicide rates are lower" quotes.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.c...er=rss&emc=rss
post #67 of 68
Quote:
Facing increasing scrutiny from the media and general public over a rash of employee suicides, Apple manufacturing partner Foxconn is rumored to be plotting an exodus from mainland China sometime in the future.

The Chinese-language ON.CC broke the news (translation) earlier this week, citing sources who attended the annual shareholders meeting of parent company Hon Hai. Those claims remain largely unverified, however.

Nevertheless, the report cited Hon Hai chairman Terry Gou as saying his firm was in the midst of planning a restructuring that would uproot its mainland China operations in favor of peppering them throughout other regions in Far Eastern such as Taiwan, Vietnam, and India.


Is slavery still legal outside of China???

And, presumably, large consumer oriented Western companies like Apple, Dell and HP would jump at the opportunity to make even more money for the sole benefit of their CEOs? I hope not.

Consumers will have the last word with companies who have no moral compass. Thankfully, there are still free media to report on working conditions in far away places.


post #68 of 68
These things are Chicom slave camps!
When are you people gonna stop enslaving people?
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