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An Atheist Manifesto - Page 4

post #121 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

segovius, you've said a lot of sensible things in this thread, but this is not one of them. Setting aside the specific issue (i.e., "someone is gay") how can you categorically claim "it is impossible that A God who created the Universe could care" about X and dismiss such an idea as "nonsense?" In fact, isn't the opposite argument more likely (i.e., that a god that created the universe would care about what goes on in it, even to what might seem like inconsequential (to you or I) details)?

Because things like homophobia, racism, general stupidity etc are human weaknesses - I do not consider it possible that a being capable of creating a universe that contains gay people would be a homophobe.

Put another way: all powerful racist homophobic God would not create ethnic minorities or gays.

But this raises other issues.... the state of 'being gay' does not exist apart from life or creation, therefore God would not know he was homophobic until he created humanity and discovered it there. It's not very rational is it? And God if He exists would not be irrational....because the universe is not irrational.

Another issue; if God could feel being gay was a sin say (as the Fundies believe) then this calls up issues of Good and Evil....essentially it would mean that things were reversed.

The 'good' people would be Robertson, Falwell etc...

The 'bad' people would be people like the compassionate guy round the corner who has not a drop of hate in him but who just happens to be gay.

I don't believe it is possible but if it turns out to be the way it is then in the hereafter I shall not have the slightest hesitation when standing before this God in

a) Pledging allegiance to Satan
b) Begging forgiveness for all the bad things I ever said against Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and all the rest of the dancing bears
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #122 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Because things like homophobia, racism, general stupidity etc are human weaknesses - I do not consider it possible that a being capable of creating a universe that contains gay people would be a homophobe.

Put another way: all powerful racist homophobic God would not create ethnic minorities or gays.

But this raises other issues.... the state of 'being gay' does not exist apart from life or creation, therefore God would not know he was homophobic until he created humanity and discovered it there. It's not very rational is it? And God if He exists would not be irrational....because the universe is not irrational.

Another issue; if God could feel being gay was a sin say (as the Fundies believe) then this calls up issues of Good and Evil....essentially it would mean that things were reversed.

But in saying these things aren't you essentially "inventing God in your own image" or layering your own ideas and perceptions of what god would or would not think or do onto whoever or whatever that god is?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #123 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Because things like homophobia, racism, general stupidity etc are human weaknesses - I do not consider it possible that a being capable of creating a universe that contains gay people would be a homophobe.

Put another way: all powerful racist homophobic God would not create ethnic minorities or gays.

But this raises other issues.... the state of 'being gay' does not exist apart from life or creation, therefore God would not know he was homophobic until he created humanity and discovered it there. It's not very rational is it? And God if He exists would not be irrational....because the universe is not irrational.

Another issue; if God could feel being gay was a sin say (as the Fundies believe) then this calls up issues of Good and Evil....essentially it would mean that things were reversed.

The 'good' people would be Robertson, Falwell etc...

The 'bad' people would be people like the compassionate guy round the corner who has not a drop of hate in him but who just happens to be gay.

I don't believe it is possible but if it turns out to be the way it is then in the hereafter I shall not have the slightest hesitation when standing before this God in

a) Pledging allegiance to Satan
b) Begging forgiveness for all the bad things I ever said against Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and all the rest of the dancing bears

If God does not believe as you do and you find that you disagree with him you are going to hitch your wagon to the polar opposite? Nice to have a God that you have absolutely no allegiance to and do not respect the authority of enough to allow for the fact that there might be something he believes that would not agree with you. Your view of God is very self-centered if this is how you approach how you would deal with possible disagreements...

"I cannot possibly be wrong, even if God said so to my face I would turn on him in a hot second."
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #124 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

But in saying these things aren't you essentially "inventing God in your own image" or layering your own ideas and perceptions of what god would or would not think or do onto whoever or whatever that god is?

It depends doesn't it?

Maybe the guy who hates gays and is busy beating them up and torching gay-bars is just expressing his point of view. I would argue that such a person would be lacking in what we might call 'spirituality'.

I would also argue that 'God' could not lack such a spiritual quality. Conceptions of God are often wrapped up in ideas about 'good and 'bad' and this is because, regardless of what you think about God's possible existence, we know for sure that 'good' and 'bad' exist. Or 'right' and 'wrong' if you prefer. They'll continue to exist even if it is proved that God doesn't. Which is why atheists are right when they say they don't need religion to make moral choices.

I agree with atheists on this: the sick twisted hating God is a product of sick twisted hating minds. He is a pure myth and their own creation - existing solely to enable and justify their own psychopathic depravity. There is no possibility the universe is the product of a psychopathic twisted fuck-up is there?

That's what happens to humans and we've all seen examples of that from the Spanish Inquisition to raping choirboys. Just don't tell me that the sort of mind capable of those things - no matter how they excuse them - is capable of anything good at all.

There is of course the possibility that the twisted sickos who actually worship a hating God like that are right and that such a being DOES exist. I don't deny that, just look around at the world. My argument would be in this case that this being still is not God and that perhaps Satan is the 'good guy'.

In fact this is a common thread in Gnostic religion - that 'God' is a kind of deranged maniac who has stolen the world from someone else (the real God) and usurped creation to spread his deranged hate - hence the killing and genocide of the Old Testament.

It is a logical and appealing view. Satanists also have a far more rational conception: that 'God' is really evil (witness his hatred of all the good and normal things like sex and fun as well as his murderous nature) and that Satan is a being that loves freedom and has been lied about by God and his pitiful sniveling sheep-like worshippers.

Another view with which it is impossible not to find huge sympathy with after only a little exposure to Xian 'morality'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #125 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It depends doesn't it?

Maybe the guy who hates gays and is busy beating them up and torching gay-bars is just expressing his point of view. I would argue that such a person would be lacking in what we might call 'spirituality'.

I would also argue that 'God' could not lack such a spiritual quality. Conceptions of God are often wrapped up in ideas about 'good and 'bad' and this is because, regardless of what you think about God's possible existence, we know for sure that 'good' and 'bad' exist. Or 'right' and 'wrong' if you prefer. They'll continue to exist even if it is proved that God doesn't. Which is why atheists are right when they say they don't need religion to make moral choices.

I agree with atheists on this: the sick twisted hating God is a product of sick twisted hating minds. He is a pure myth and their own creation - existing solely to enable and justify their own psychopathic depravity. There is no possibility the universe is the product of a psychopathic twisted fuck-up is there?

That's what happens to humans and we've all seen examples of that from the Spanish Inquisition to raping choirboys. Just don't tell me that the sort of mind capable of those things - no matter how they excuse them - is capable of anything good at all.

There is of course the possibility that the twisted sickos who actually worship a hating God like that are right and that such a being DOES exist. I don't deny that, just look around at the world. My argument would be in this case that this being still is not God and that perhaps Satan is the 'good guy'.

In fact this is a common thread in Gnostic religion - that 'God' is a kind of deranged maniac who has stolen the world from someone else (the real God) and usurped creation to spread his deranged hate - hence the killing and genocide of the Old Testament.

It is a logical and appealing view. Satanists also have a far more rational conception: that 'God' is really evil (witness his hatred of all the good and normal things like sex and fun as well as his murderous nature) and that Satan is a being that loves freedom and has been lied about by God and his pitiful sniveling sheep-like worshippers.

Another view with which it is impossible not to find huge sympathy with after only a little exposure to Xian 'morality'.

I suppose the issue I would take here is the assumption that if God were to actually have a problem with homosexuality, that he would be a racist homophobe who wanted nothing but death, or a good beating, for those who opposed him. You are creating a false choice for which only your view can be right.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #126 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

If you are a jew or a christian you are accepting the word of god (or the guy who's name may not be uttered). If you do so you also accept the responsibility to masterfully care for god's creation. It is very clear that jews and christians have not done so.



Really...clear to whom? How and why? Which Jews and Christians? All of them? Most? Some?

Quote:

Quote:
Therefore the bible and Torah have been purposely misinterpreted to allow for atrocities against gods creation.

Yes, by some people. That is true.

Quote:

God includes humans in "creatures" but clergy has conveniently separated us from the animal and plant kingdom. The result is hell.

How do you know God doesn't make that distinction? Secondly, if you consider the plant kingdom inextricably linked with the animal kingdom, didn't God give us dominion over the plants, too? If we are to "masterfully care" for ALL of God's creations...and this includes plants...I assume we are not to consume animals OR plants? Or wait...if we can "use" animals in the spirit of masterful care, then are we also not allowed to use the Earth's resources?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #127 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

... while not a single person on the earth currently has ever seen Saturn directly...

I have.
So have many thousands of others.
It certainly requires some magnification, but photons that have bounced of the surface of Saturn have then traveled directly to my retina. It doesn't take a very powerful telescope to clearly see the rings around Saturn.... Or even the great spot on Jupiter.
You could argue that the use of RADIO telescopes would not be direct observation, but optical telescopes would certainly qualify as direct observation.

I have not ever seen evidence of a person "experiencing" God. Certainly people have claimed to... But always in situations where it could easily be explained by some other phenomenon. And if one could come up with a rational explanation, why would you even consider rejecting that in favor of a belief in the supernatural?

I can stand in Times Square pointing at the sky. I will soon have hundreds (well, dozens at least) of other people looking up there with me, but that doesn't mean there's anything there!
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #128 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

atheism is NOT a belief system. It's the default, the zero state, that exists before one fills in the gaps of his or her knowledge with fairy tales.

Would you not agree that agnostic views as compared to atheist views would be a more accurate representation of this "zero state" that you speak of "before one fills in the gaps" etc.

I would add this visual to understand my point:

Believer in God +1

Agnostic Zero

Athiest -1

I think your dead on center reading of "athiest" is simply out of callibration.

I can rationally agree to agree that Agnostic is a far far far more unbiased and true reading of this "zero state" you mention.

Am I wrong here?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #129 of 295
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Would you not agree that agnostic views as compared to atheist views would be a more accurate representation of this "zero state" that you speak of "before one fills in the gaps" etc.

I would add this visual to understand my point:

Believer in God +1

Agnostic Zero

Athiest -1

I think your dead on center reading of "athiest" is simply out of callibration.

I can rationally agree to agree that Agnostic is a far far far more unbiased and true reading of this "zero state" you mention.

Am I wrong here?

Fellows

An atheist who says "there is no god, never will be a possibility whatsoever of one existing in any form at all" is pushing into the negatives and going into a land of unsupportable claims. However, the atheist who says "I don't believe there's a god based on the lack of any shred of evidence whatsoever--however, if you present to me some evidence at some point in the future, I will reevaluate my position" is rather reasonable and is at that zero state.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #130 of 295
I am always surprised how people limit themselves with their ideas of God.

It is not surprising that religionist Fundies do this (not all religious people do) because they are more often than not very limited and biased people - which is why they are Fundamentalists of whatever religion - but it always surprises me atheists do. It shouldn't I guess....people are pretty much average.

But I still struggle to get it. It always goes like this:

1) Irrational religionists make up a fictitious God to echo their own bias and fear.

2) Atheists rightly point out this is irrational, limiting and false

3) Atheists then go on to ACCEPT the claim at #1 in the sense they view it in the same way: that this is what God is and all He is or could be in order to deny it.

That is they NEVER say God as evinced in #1 is false and wrong BUT there could be other manifestations of God.

They say instead: because #1 is demonstrably false then ALL conceptions of God are false.

That's irrational.

I want to also say something about this ideé fixe of 'evidence'.

I do not accept that evidence is needed in the sense that religion clearly is based around faith. This may well be incorrect (ie not true) but that is not the point: many religions clearly states that faith is the bedrock. So why not judge them by there own terms instead of bringing your own?

I can't go into a University and say "I want to study Christianity but I believe it is based on Devil Worship so I'll write a thesis on that". I have to judge it by what it claims...not what I personally hold to be my own opinions if they conflict.

In fact there are many (all?) religions that do not require 'evidence' at all.

My personal perspective is an Islamic one and Islam requires neither faith nor evidence. In fact, in one reading only God exists so nothing exists that is not God.

Dawkins, Harris and BR are aspects of God and their opinions are aspects of God.

It causes a conflict and a struggle to understand the paradox...in fact it can never be understood but that is not the point. The point is that there is essentially no division except in our minds and the 'religious path' is therefore to come to terms with that.

It avoids conceptions of God as some old guy on a cloud dishing out thunderbolts and it negates the need for proof or evidence.

I am the proof. You are the proof. BR and Harris are the proof.

The fact that billions of years ago there was nothing and we all came out of some primeval soup to sit at keyboards swaggering our bollocks and shouting at each other on the internets is the evidence.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #131 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I have.So have many thousands of others.

Millions have experienced God directly; most of the world's population believe in some sort of deity and practice their faith of belief - of these many believe in Christianity and God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

I have not ever seen evidence of a person "experiencing" God.

People experience their belief everywhere but celebrate it in their center of faith. Look around in your town for a wooden or brick building with the word "Church" or "Mosque" or "Synagogue" on it... chances are you'll see some evidence within unless sight or first person witness is a distinct problem for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Certainly people have claimed to... But always in situations where it could easily be explained by some other phenomenon. And if one could come up with a rational explanation, why would you even consider rejecting that in favor of a belief in the supernatural?

There are no atheists in foxholes either! Man is weak and when times are good he abandons his belief in God; as soon as difficulty is encountered man turns back to God and extends his belief. All this discussion is about is the phenomena of atheists attempting to justify their weakness; sad but in the end a pathetic statement upon man's weakness.
post #132 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


My personal perspective is an Islamic one and Islam requires neither faith nor evidence. In fact, in one reading only God exists so nothing exists that is not God.

Dawkins, Harris and BR are aspects of God and their opinions are aspects of God.

It causes a conflict and a struggle to understand the paradox...in fact it can never be understood but that is not the point. The point is that there is essentially no division except in our minds and the 'religious path' is therefore to come to terms with that.

It avoids conceptions of God as some old guy on a cloud dishing out thunderbolts and it negates the need for proof or evidence.

I am the proof. You are the proof. BR and Harris are the proof.

The fact that billions of years ago there was nothing and we all came out of some primeval soup to sit at keyboards swaggering our bollocks and shouting at each other on the internets is the evidence.

Of course I have to submit the following reading:

http://www.theresurgence.com/7_ways_...s_antithetical

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #133 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Of course I have to submit the following reading:

http://www.theresurgence.com/7_ways_...s_antithetical

Fellows

Hehe...I'd expect nothing less!!

Without getting into a theological discussion which is probably beyond the scope of this thread, the fact that there is considered thought on both these positions (as the article says - even some Christian teachers approach this idea but I would deny it is Pantheism but that's for another day) is a demonstration of the laziness of atheism when it approaches religion.

The issue is in fact a philosophical one and has been debated by philosophers since Plato and before....Christianity solves the issue in one way and Islam in another and other religions in yet other ways.

All these positions are carefully thought about and debated over centuries.

Atheists don't seem to care about that - all is just lumped into one bin and dismissed. Christianity and Islam vary widely on this? Who cares - it's all 'religion'.

They have evolved differing positions through writing, debate and thought over centuries? Who cares about that effort...it cannot be worth anything..it is 'religion'.

And then they will talk about it all 'as an expert'.

It is not an honourable position nor one which can be respected and it does not contribute anything to the debate.

You and I disagree on this (and many other things) Fellows but you offer this to the debate and it's a contribution. I respect that. Maybe someone else will read it and feel 'yes, this is for me'....God bless them if so.

That's what gets me about atheism - it does not really contribute...it just takes the position of denying and then sitting back asking for 'proof'. It is passive-aggressive.

We are all on our own search for truth....if it were not so then religion and atheism would not exist. And given that we all find truths that fit our natures. Of course objectively in the final analysis one might be proved 'right' or 'wrong' but that it's not up to US to prove it.

Imo one finds one's truth, whether atheism, Islam, Christianity whatever, tries to live it sincerely and to do one's best and then at the end of it all God, if He exists, will have the last word. Or not if the atheists are correct.

You pays your money and you takes your choice!!

Meantime I have no interest in 'proving' anything to anyone and I think you feel the same which I respect.

Atheism though is looking more and more like some sort of cult looking for members to me.

BTW: tried to resist this but failed (all too human): those points in that article are wildly erroneous in places..... of course 'One-ism' (not happy with that term either) makes distinction between religions and gender...that's a bit silly. It's far more involved than that..One book explaining the doctrine from the Middle Ages spans 20 volumes!!!! It's a massively complex issue and the theology behind it - called Wahdat al-Wujud - has been debated for centuries with reference to all existing philosophical connections. It's not possible to address it in simplistic terms but those in that article do not apply to Islam but may to other religions, I don't know.

One-ism is really Pantheism. This doctrine is more properly Panentheism which is a doctrine that Islam and Eastern Christianity held in common.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #134 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Hehe...I'd expect nothing less!!

Without getting into a theological discussion which is probably beyond the scope of this thread .

I knew as I was posting that link that I was stepping a bit off the path of this thread but you know I had to tease you seg!

I know you and I don't always agree but that is the beauty of it all. I can give you a hard time or I can laugh with you and even agree with you sometimes (don't tell anyone) and the good news is that each of us has something to share and something to discuss be it a matter where we agree or not!

I think sometimes to meet people where they are and to try to make an attempt to understand them and their views is a worthy and productive venture. Agreement or not.

You, BR and I may have different ways that we frame the world that we each experience but I count it good for us all to reach beyond our own nose to see what the other is saying.

Stay well Seg!

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #135 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If God does not believe as you do ....

God believes..?????

Isn't he/she/it all knowing? Knowing all negates any need to believe. Believing is NOT KNOWING. You believe in a god who "belives".

Another blatant example of how religion causes confusion and is reserved for people of low reasoning ability.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #136 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I knew as I was posting that link that I was stepping a bit off the path of this thread but you know I had to tease you seg!

I know you and I don't always agree but that is the beauty of it all. I can give you a hard time or I can laugh with you and even agree with you sometimes (don't tell anyone) and the good news is that each of us has something to share and something to discuss be it a matter where we agree or not!

I think sometimes to meet people where they are and to try to make an attempt to understand them and their views is a worthy and productive venture. Agreement or not.

You, BR and I may have different ways that we frame the world that we each experience but I count it good for us all to reach beyond our own nose to see what the other is saying.

Stay well Seg!

Fellows

Thanks Fellows!! We're all ingredients in the same broth aren't we!! Hope life is treating you well!!

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #137 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


Meantime I have no interest in 'proving' anything to anyone and I think you feel the same which I respect.

Agreed here!
Quote:
BTW: tried to resist this but failed (all too human): those points in that article are wildly erroneous in places..... of course 'One-ism' (not happy with that term either) makes distinction between religions and gender...that's a bit silly. It's far more involved than that..One book explaining the doctrine from the Middle Ages spans 20 volumes!!!! It's a massively complex issue and the theology behind it - called Wahdat al-Wujud - has been debated for centuries with reference to all existing philosophical connections. It's not possible to address it in simplistic terms but those in that article do not apply to Islam but may to other religions, I don't know.

One-ism is really Pantheism. This doctrine is more properly Panentheism which is a doctrine that Islam and Eastern Christianity held in common.

You know we do have to agree from time to time

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #138 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

God believes..?????

Isn't he/she/it all knowing? Knowing all negates any need to believe. Believing is NOT KNOWING. You believe in a god who "belives".

Another blatant example of how religion causes confusion and is reserved for people of low reasoning ability.

Actually this is a better way of saying what I've been trying to say and failing all thread!!

If someone knows something then they do not believe it. They KNOW it.

If someone does not know - particularly if the thing in question is unknowable - then BELIEF is fine.

Therefore a believer's faith is valid as is an atheists position. Both cannot be right but that is where BELIEF comes in. You believe what your life-path makes most sensible to you at any time.

Which is why Atheists should admit their position is a belief also. Because they cannot know that God does not exist any more than someone else can know He does. It's really quite simple.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #139 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually this is a better way of saying what I've been trying to say and failing all thread!!

If someone knows something then they do not believe it. They KNOW it.

If someone does not know - particularly if the thing in question is unknowable - then BELIEF is fine.

Therefore a believer's faith is valid as is an atheists position. Both cannot be right but that is where BELIEF comes in. You believe what your life-path makes most sensible to you at any time.

Which is why Atheists should admit their position is a belief also. Because they cannot know that God does not exist any more than someone else can know He does. It's really quite simple.

However there is a lot more evidence in opposition of god's existence than in support of it.

God is irrelevant to believers but not to atheists since they share his/her/it's religion which is clearly atheism.

Atheism saves!
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #140 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

However there is a lot more evidence in opposition of god's existence than in support of it.

Did you get out your evidence scale and weigh all the pro/con to determine that lovely assumption? More than 2.5 billion worldwide practice Christianity and believe in God - that is not to even cite other faiths where God is likewise worshiped; as reasonable evidence for believing in God increases the followers of God is likewise enhanced, making Christianity the largest religion, as has been the case for the last thousand years or more...
post #141 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

However there is a lot more evidence in opposition of god's existence than in support of it.

God is irrelevant to believers but not to atheists since they share his/her/it's religion which is clearly atheism.

Atheism saves!

I don't personally think there is any evidence pro or against God per se as a concept.

There is evidence against specific Gods and gods, ie: Jehovah, Zeus or whoever but even if you could eliminate every God from every religion that ever existed then there would still be the concept of 'A GOD' in the abstract.

The evidence is neither pro or against this conception.

But then atheists mean one of the Gods from myth or religious tradition when they talk of God and do not refer to a philosophical abstraction or possibility - that's another massive dishonesty btw.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #142 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

However there is a lot more evidence in opposition of god's existence than in support of it.

God is irrelevant to believers but not to atheists since they share his/her/it's religion which is clearly atheism.

Atheism saves!


OK, let me bite. So, God doesn't believe in....himself?


Thanks and have a nice day.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #143 of 295
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't personally think there is any evidence pro or against God per se as a concept.

There is evidence against specific Gods and gods, ie: Jehovah, Zeus or whoever but even if you could eliminate every God from every religion that ever existed then there would still be the concept of 'A GOD' in the abstract.

The evidence is neither pro or against this conception.

But then atheists mean one of the Gods from myth or religious tradition when they talk of God and do not refer to a philosophical abstraction or possibility - that's another massive dishonesty btw.

As usual you are calling atheists dishonest but failing to recognize the myriad of times in this thread that a true, rational atheist will reconsider the position granted that new evidence comes to light. Show me the money. That's all I ask. I'm still waiting.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #144 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

OK, let me bite. So, God doesn't believe in....himself?


Thanks and have a nice day.

Your god has insecurities? He needs to believe in.... himself

You are ascribing some petty human concepts like "belief" and awareness of weaknesses to god. Your god is obviously the, let's say, less developed under the gods.
God is supernatural remember?
If anything he/she/it KNOWS HIMSELF.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #145 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Did you get out your evidence scale and weigh all the pro/con to determine that lovely assumption? More than 2.5 billion worldwide practice Christianity and believe in God - that is not to even cite other faiths where God is likewise worshiped; as reasonable evidence for believing in God increases the followers of God is likewise enhanced, making Christianity the largest religion, as has been the case for the last thousand years or more...

If you get off on looking at and praying to Roman execution technology, this if for you.


If your Christian god is so cool why do people worship on "sun" -day not on "god" -day? It couldn't get it's own week day, poor baby.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #146 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

As usual you are calling atheists dishonest but failing to recognize the myriad of times in this thread that a true, rational atheist will reconsider the position granted that new evidence comes to light. Show me the money. That's all I ask. I'm still waiting.

I am not a religionist but let's pretend I am...

I would say to you the same...show me the money. PROVE God does not exist.

You can't. But that's ok...because you have different rules to the religionist because you are right.

Which if you bothered to study religion at all you would know that that's exactly what THEY say.

Now as myself I would say this (yet again):

I see no difference between you and the religionists at all. It's very sad..they have an excuse (they are irrational) but you...you should do much, much better.

It's just lazy...and lazy without recourse to the excuse that it's ok because you're stupid.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #147 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

If you get off on looking at and praying to Roman execution technology, this if for you.


If your Christian god is so cool why do people worship on "sun" -day not on "god" -day? It could get it's own week day, poor baby.

It's pretty difficult to sink the atheist argument lower but I think you've managed it...

It's kind of like football when you;re losing10-0 and are so pissed off you start kicking the ball into your own net isn't it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #148 of 295
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I am not a religionist but let's pretend I am...

I would say to you the same...show me the money. PROVE God does not exist.

You can't. But that's ok...because you have different rules to the religionist because you are right.

Which if you bothered to study religion at all you would know that that's exactly what THEY say.

Now as myself I would say this (yet again):

I see no difference between you and the religionists at all. It's very sad..they have an excuse (they are irrational) but you...you should do much, much better.

It's just lazy...and lazy without recourse to the excuse that it's ok because you're stupid.

Again, and again, and again...you do not have to prove the negative. It is the religionist that makes the assertion. It is the religionist who must back it up. The burden of approve is on them, not the atheist who is waiting for said evidence to show up and reserving judgment until such a time arrives.


Why is it that in ANY other arena someone must back up their claims EXCEPT when it comes to religion?


I think the economy is run by invisible sentient ladybugs in an underground lair growing to epic proportions feasting on the tears of those who lose their 401ks. GO AHEAD, ANTILADYBUGIST, PROVE OUR HIDDEN INSECT OVERLORDS DON'T EXIST!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #149 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Again, and again, and again...you do not have to prove the negative. It is the religionist that makes the assertion. It is the religionist who must back it up. The burden of approve is on them, not the atheist who is waiting for said evidence to show up and reserving judgment until such a time arrives.

Obfuscation.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #150 of 295
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Obfuscation.

I, the atheist, am making no assertions. I say I do not know what caused the universe to come into being, whether it always existed, or whether a magical old man farted it out after having too much galactic pizza. I'm interested in knowing the answers to these questions. I'm just waiting to pass judgment until someone comes up with some real evidence. Not some hokey pokey drugged up nonsense like "Uhhh, well, maybe we're, like, all god so like, you prove that we're not, and dude, you can't so uhh you've like shown just how wrong you are by just existing. Far out, man."

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #151 of 295
Thread Starter 
Come on, in any other arena of life, you have to back up your claims. Can you go to your boss and say you have a great idea for making money but provide no real details as to how it actually works? Are you supposed to tell your boss, upon questioning you for more details, that you have faith your scheme will work and that's all you need to prove it's true. And after further questioning from the boss, do you get to tell him "Well, why don't you just prove that it won't work!?"

It's not up to the boss to disprove your theory. You proposed it. You back it up. Otherwise, you are not to be taken seriously.

Why does this standard of intellectual conversation DIE when it comes to religion? Oh yeah, we let the tards get away with this lazy pseudo-intellectual bullshit for far too fucking long.

No, no, dear. It would be impolite to question why Mr. Johnson believes Jesus came to America and his story was written on gold plates that could only be seen or deciphered by one con artist. Mr. Johnson BELIEVES it. And his opinion, no matter how detached from reality it is, is just as valid as yours, little Billy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #152 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I, the atheist, am making no assertions. I say I do not know what caused the universe to come into being, whether it always existed, or whether a magical old man farted it out after having too much galactic pizza. I'

snip

aybe we're, like, all god so like, you prove that we're not, and dude, you can't so uhh you've like shown just how wrong you are by just existing. Far out, man."

Exactly.

Is there any evidence that there is a god?

No.

None? None at all?

No. None. There is no evidence.

Not even a little?

No. There is no evidence that there is a god. At all.

But... that means... it's not up to me to prove ANYTHING. Since there is NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND, it is up to the people who believe that there is a god, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND, to make the case.

I will be over here, reading fascinating books about anthropology and neuroscience. I do not have to prove anything. I am waiting for someone to make their case. I do not have anything to prove. I will have a cup of tea and re-read some Sanskrit poems, listening to Tallis and admiring Russian icons.

Come and find me and make a case.
post #153 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I, the atheist, am making no assertions. I say I do not know what caused the universe to come into being, whether it always existed, or whether a magical old man farted it out after having too much galactic pizza. I'm interested in knowing the answers to these questions. I'm just waiting to pass judgment until someone comes up with some real evidence. Not some hokey pokey drugged up nonsense like "Uhhh, well, maybe we're, like, all god so like, you prove that we're not, and dude, you can't so uhh you've like shown just how wrong you are by just existing. Far out, man."

You say you make no assertions yet you start a thread saying this verbatim - which one cannot help but notice, is a series of (questionable and subjective) assertions:

Quote:
Five years ago Sam Harris wrote this piece and it is just as relevant today, if not more so given the escalation of religious violence worldwide. I am tired of being treated like a second class citizen because I do not subscribe to belief without reason. In Harris's article, he goes on to eloquently define atheism, expose the hypocrisy of "liberal piety" from religious moderates, demonstrate how good societies do not need a religious foundation, and show that the primary source of political violence in this world is rooted in religion and unreason.

So, leaving to one side the assertions that you are unaware of making, there is a secondary problem: if you are telling the truth with that statement we know certain things:

1) We know that your definition of atheism corresponds to Harris's (we can analyse this more later if necessary)

2) We know that you are tired of being treated like a 2nd class citizen

3) We know that you THINK you do not subscribe to belief without reason (though perhaps what you think is somewhat discordant with the reality..just perhaps)

4) We know you think political violence is rooted in religion.

Several of these points are mutually exclusive and the fourth in particular is either dishonest, ignorant or irrational. Have not pared it down exactly, need more data.

None of them are acknowledged as facts yet you state them as if they are. There are other issues too but that will do for now.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #154 of 295
Thread Starter 
So you are claiming my logic is flawed in some places, therefore atheists have to disprove god.

That makes perfect sense. Got it. I'll be with Mumbo waiting for some evidence enjoying the Hubble Deep Field View, playing guitar, reading amazing science fiction, and trying to make the best little life for myself here and now--the entirety of the evidence, up until now, says that this life is all that I've got.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #155 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Come on, in any other arena of life, you have to back up your claims. Can you go to your boss and say you have a great idea for making money but provide no real details as to how it actually works? Are you supposed to tell your boss, upon questioning you for more details, that you have faith your scheme will work and that's all you need to prove it's true. And after further questioning from the boss, do you get to tell him "Well, why don't you just prove that it won't work!?"

It's not up to the boss to disprove your theory. You proposed it. You back it up. Otherwise, you are not to be taken seriously.

Why does this standard of intellectual conversation DIE when it comes to religion? Oh yeah, we let the tards get away with this lazy pseudo-intellectual bullshit for far too fucking long.

No, no, dear. It would be impolite to question why Mr. Johnson believes Jesus came to America and his story was written on gold plates that could only be seen or deciphered by one con artist. Mr. Johnson BELIEVES it. And his opinion, no matter how detached from reality it is, is just as valid as yours, little Billy.

I have explained my position - though I don't actually have to, that is I don't HAVE To conform to your dictats any more than I have to do what anyone else tells me to do - and you refuse to accept it.

I can explain it again in simpler terms....I do not need proof or evidence for myself or you because my belief is that all is God.

Therefore an atheist to me IS God and therefore my evidence. It is not your evidence but your conception of God is different to mine.

I think that's fine.

It is YOU who demands I confirm to YOUR position and provide proof for YOU on YOUR terms.

Which is why to me you are just another fundie...and you know what? That's fine too!!

Meanwhile, I have some questions about your irrationality which is troubling me. Hopefully you can clear it up and set my mind at rest...alternatively feel free to ignore it and avoid it by talking about something else entirely.

The first problem I have is this:

You seem to agree somehow with Harris. Fair enough.

You seem to dislike or object to violence - viz this statement:

Quote:
....show that the primary source of political violence in this world is rooted in religion and unreason

From this I take it that you believe violence is religious in nature. I also assume you think this violence is wrong...I could be wrong myself here so if I am is ok - just tell me you think violence is ok and it is just religious violence you object to.

So the problem is this...Harris is on record as saying this about Muslims:

Quote:
"some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them"

Would you regard this as violence? The actual ethical killing I mean?

If not why not? Because they are Muslims? If so then is Harris religious? He is advocating violence after all and you claim most violence is religious?

This seems irrational to me. Please clarify.

Also you never addressed Harris's belief in reincarnation.

Do you think reincarnation is irrational? Is it religious? If not why not? Do you believe in it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #156 of 295
Thread Starter 
Sam Harris - I am not he. If you were to draw a venn diagram, many of our beliefs would align. Some would not. The violent aspects wouldn't.

Everything is god - Proof? Or, call it something else because you're completely confusing the discourse with very esoteric twists of the g-word.

Reincarnation - Proof? More silly speculation until I see some evidence.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #157 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So you are claiming my logic is flawed in some places, therefore atheists have to disprove god.

I am claiming that you are irrational.

That's ok...we all are at times. It's part of being human. But perhaps if you did not claim to be so rational no-one would care.

Quote:
That makes perfect sense. Got it. I'll be with Mumbo waiting for some evidence enjoying the Hubble Deep Field View, playing guitar, reading amazing science fiction, and trying to make the best little life for myself here and now--the entirety of the evidence, up until now, says that this life is all that I've got.

I'd enjoy doing all those things too. Presumably not with you and Mumbo but I do them nonetheless...I have a major collection of 50s/60s Pulp science fiction paperbacks though admittedly I can't read them as they are too rare but the cover art is cool.

I can play guitar too but I don't happen to think this life is all we've got but if I did it wouldn't make any difference because both would be just a belief, neither would entitle me to claim I had the edge on anyone else and why would I want to?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #158 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Sam Harris - I am not he. If you were to draw a venn diagram, many of our beliefs would align. Some would not. The violent aspects wouldn't.

Everything is god - Proof? Or, call it something else because you're completely confusing the discourse with very esoteric twists of the g-word.

Reincarnation - Proof? More silly speculation until I see some evidence.

I don't require proof - you do.

I don't believe in reincarnation - Sam Harris does.

The last bit is disturbing:

You claim now it is 'silly speculation' but imply that you would accept it if there is evidence.

This can only mean one of the following:

1) That in your opinion it is 'silly speculation' but if it was proved it would stop being 'silly speculation'.

This is irrational. It would not change at all. It would merely be proved..it could not stop being 'silly' just because it is proved.

2) You do not really think it could ever be proved and that's why to you it is 'silly speculation' - ie you have already made up your mind it is impossible and the 'evidence' schtick is just lip-service
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #159 of 295
Thread Starter 
It's silly because it's not even a hypothesis. It's a wild assed guess.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #160 of 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's pretty difficult to sink the atheist argument lower but I think you've managed it...

It's kind of like football when you;re losing10-0 and are so pissed off you start kicking the ball into your own net isn't it?

What's football?
I am a good Christian.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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