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Apple laying groundwork for TRIM support in future SSD-based Macs

post #1 of 61
Thread Starter 
Apple may be laying the foundation for TRIM support in future Macs, a technology that should allow their solid state flash drives to maintain optimal performance throughout the life span of the systems.

The Mac maker's most recent 13-inch MacBook Pros display an option for TRIM support in their system profilers on SSD-equipped models, one which isn't present in either the second-generation unibody 15-inch MacBook Pros or the latest refresh sporting Intel's Core i5 and Core i7 processors.

TRIM is essentially a command that lets operating systems like Mac OS X inform SSDs of which blocks of pre-written data are no longer in use, allowing them to be wiped clean internally.

This form of garbage collection overhead prevents the slowdown in future write operations on those data blocks that would otherwise result in unanticipated progressive performance degradation of write operations on the SSD over time.

It's believed that the new Nvidia GeForce 320M chipset inside the 13-inch MacBook Pros is responsible for supporting TRIM at some level. Earlier MacBook Pros employ a previous generation Nvidia chipset that lacks the same support, as does the Intel-based chipset in the most recently released Core i5 and Core i7 models.



That said, the current Core 2 Duo-based 13-inch MacBook Pros are likely among the last Macs to adopt a Nvidia chipset given that future models will employ Intel's latest chip offerings, for which the chipmaker has forbid Nvidia from supporting through its own hardware.

Update: One AppleInsider forum member notes that the same "TRIM Support: No" showed up on his Core 2, 17-Inch MacBook Pro after he updated the firmware on his SSD to version 2CV102HD.
post #2 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

It's believed that the new Nvidia GeForce 320M chipset inside the 13-inch MacBook Pros is responsible for supporting TRIM at some level.

windows 7 TRIM is software based, i will be very disappointed if Apple makes this hardware dependent.
post #3 of 61
That same "TRIM Support: No" shows up on my Core 2, 17-Inch MacBook Pro. Happened when I update firmware on my SSD to a level that supported TRIM. I'd be a bit more than a little surprised (and upset) if TRIM support required a newer rev. of the AHCI.

I did not get my Intel SSDSA2M160G2GN from Apple and I upgraded it to firmware version 2CV102HD.
post #4 of 61
Wait....the worlds most advanced OS doesn't support this already?
post #5 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonklers View Post

windows 7 TRIM is software based, i will be very disappointed if Apple makes this hardware dependent.

Agreed - I have a Corsair RealSSD 128GB in my 2006 MacBook. Windows 7 maintains the SSD with TRIM, OS X doesn't and by the looks of it, won't even in the future.

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post #6 of 61
I was about to say... TRIM support is driver based. It's up to Apple if they want to support it or if this is a planned obsolescence of older machines. I have a MacBook unibody, I've already upgraded the HDD to a 7,200 RPM one. On one hand I'd be disappointed if Apple doesn't support this feature, on the other I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.
post #7 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Wait....the worlds most advanced OS doesn't support this already?

...on whether the file system itself was so configured and being relied upon to do the garbage clean-up and was found to not do as good a job as TRIM, or if lower level services were taking the place of TRIM functions. TRIM is a low-level stop-gap fix for data management in SSDs due to the way in which SSD manufacturers have set up how data is mapped (via pages/blocks) to the media. The problem I foresee is having different SSD manufacturers AND OS makers offering different TRIM solutions, instead of a robust universal standard. TRIM is far from a perfect solution in this case, data-mapping and maintenance on the SSD should be made more robust to begin with - but this is still new territory and the solutions are still being created.

post #8 of 61
I hope hard drives don't get removed in future Mac's just to advance the use of SSD with it's super high cost per GB.

If that does occur, I would like to see at least two case flush, spring loaded,high capacity/speed SDXC ports.

This way if the machine needs to be taken in for service, one can remove all their files very easily before some nosy tech does.
post #9 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonklers View Post

windows 7 TRIM is software based, i will be very disappointed if Apple makes this hardware dependent.

+1
Let's just say I'll be annoyed if they *FINALLY* bring TRIM support and I still can't use it!
post #10 of 61
TRIM is nice, but I'd like for Apple to offer better SSD options in their machines. Hopefully they will once TRIM is in place. Anyone have and SSD and 10.6.4 to see if it's enabled yet?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotOn View Post

I hope hard drives don't get removed in future Mac's just to advance the use of SSD with it's super high cost per GB.

If that does occur, I would like to see at least two case flush, spring loaded,high capacity/speed SDXC ports.

This way if the machine needs to be taken in for service, one can remove all their files very easily before some nosy tech does.

Um, having an SSD or HDD doesn't alter one's ability to remove personal files or the drive. In fact, using an SSD would speed up any drive reading you would need for such a task.

As for SSDs being the future, where have you been? They ARE the future. They keep increasing in capacity and the cost keeps coming down. While still pricer than HDDs you can now get more SSD capacity in the same space as a HDD platter. If you ignore height of the drive 2.5" HDDs can still hold more total capacity, but with each 50% increase even that limit is going away, as well as the price dropping per GB.

As of the last MBP update the largest drive Apple offers for their notebooks are SSDs by 512GB. They also offer more SSD options than they do HDD options. We'll already getting to the threshold of weighing cost v. performance of SSDs which take it out from being just a geeky option to a real consideration among the average user. SSDs are coming and nothing can stop them.
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post #11 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by exscape View Post

+1
Let's just say I'll be annoyed if they *FINALLY* bring TRIM support and I still can't use it!

LOL You may be asking too much.
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post #12 of 61
With the garbage collection built into later model drives/firmware, TRIM isn't necessary for great SSD performance in real-world usage.

If you're waiting for TRIM support in Mac OS X before upgrading to SSD, you're wasting your time.
post #13 of 61
Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.

It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.



Dave
post #14 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.

It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.



Dave

That may be true, but we still have to deal with whats here today.

I'm no expert, but hasn't the memory management issue of SSD (and related memory) issue be around for years? Working with some aerospace avionic geeks, this is a issue(at least similar) that has to be worked on constantly in their hardware/software. To paraphrase a previous poster - what...it has not been addressed already?

That said, not sure of the long term issue. In aerospace, they use boards for decades and run them 12 hours a day or more. Not sure how many hours a MBP will get that it may be a 'real' issue. Any one have any thoughts?
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post #15 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

TRIM is nice, but I'd like for Apple to offer better SSD options in their machines. Hopefully they will once TRIM is in place. Anyone have and SSD and 10.6.4 to see if it's enabled yet?

10.6.4, yes; TRIM support in OS, no.

I had to use an Intel firmware update from a .iso boot image they supplied to upgrade my SSD to the latest firmware.
post #16 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

10.6.4, yes; TRIM support in OS, no.

Ah, so it's unchanged since 10.6.3. Oh well.


PS: How about Open GL support? In 10.6.3 they were at 95% (22/23) for OpenGL v3.0, 12% (1/8) for v3.1, 33% (3/9) for v3.2, and 0% for v3.3 or v4.0.

OpenGL Extensions Viewer BTW, thanks for the info.

Quote:
I had to use an Intel firmware update from a .iso boot image they supplied to upgrade my SSD to the latest firmware.

For my Intel X-25 they have you burn a CD or use a floppy to boot into OpenDOS, I think it was, to check and run the update. I found that to be a bit of laugh having the most advanced drive use the most unsophisticated and old option to update it. Worked well, though, even though I had just removed my optical drive to put a HDD in it's place and had to find someone to give me a blank CD to burn.
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post #17 of 61
I sure hope apple decides to support TRIM, since most of the code is already in the OS. It would take them about 50 lines of code to fully support it. All I have to do then is to update my samsung SSD firmware somehow... This may be little off-topic but has anyone updated samsung SSD Firmware on a mac?
post #18 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

PS: How about Open GL support?


For my Intel X-25 they have you burn a CD or use a floppy to boot into OpenDOS, I think it was, to check and run the update. I found that to be a bit of laugh having the most advanced drive use the most unsophisticated and old option to update it. Worked well, though, even though I had just removed my optical drive to put a HDD in it's place and had to find someone to give me a blank CD to burn.

I used the same upgrade method. I have the X-25, 160GB sitting in what was the home of my optical drive. I picked up a kit that included an external enclosure for the Superdrive.

No change on OpenGL support.
post #19 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.

It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.

This person and several others above are correct.

SSD manufacturers should be implementing the garbage collection, not the operating system. TRIM isn't a universal standard, it's a hack.
post #20 of 61
Omg. What's with this nonstop flood of OSX news.... Have we all forgotten Apple has a cellphone dept too???
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post #21 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.

Maybe you have a beef with your manufacturer, but my OWC Extreme SSD already handles the issue internally.

Perhaps you just picked the wrong SSD

Quote:
It is unfortunate that this public and uninformed demand is likely pressuring Apple to support features not really needed in it's OS.

indeed. TRIM is an ugly hack. What is really needed is a clean drive interface that has none of the ATA baggage that has been drug forward from the first PC days

If anyone has the sales volume and influence to do it, its Apple. Hopefully it's cooking away in their labs. Hard drives and file system performance are the slowest link in the computer chain by a wide margin. Here's to hoping for a native designed for flash filesystem that goes beyond ZFS.
post #22 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Two guys above have already pointed out issues with TRIM but I will reiterate; supporting such by Apple would be a waste of time. As has been already mentioned TRIM support in SSD is a stop gap measure. Instead people should be demanding that manufactures fix their SSD.

Dave

It's not as easy as that Dave, at least not without building in large amounts of redundant space on the SSD (which some manufacturers have done). Given that you'll still play close to $500 for 160GB, there is quite a serious trade off between performance and cost right now - paying for 40GBs that you'll never be able to use when it's $7 a GB is a big ask.

Saying TRIM is a waste of time might be easy for someone to say who hasn't invested in an SSD, but when your HDD performance drops by 60 or 70% after 3 weeks, you might change your mind - especially when the same doesn't happen on some 'other' OS.

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post #23 of 61
To those that call TRIM a hack I have a question. How does a storage device or medium (of any kind) know the difference between a file you want to keep vs. one in your trash vs. a deleted file?

Call me crazy but I don't want my storage device to decide what is and isn't garbage.
post #24 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

It's not as easy as that Dave, at least not without building in large amounts of redundant space on the SSD (which some manufacturers have done). Given that you'll still play close to $500 for 160GB, there is quite a serious trade off between performance and cost right now - paying for 40GBs that you'll never be able to use when it's $7 a GB is a big ask.

160GB for $500? You definitely should not get SSDs at the apple store...
post #25 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by emulator View Post

160GB for $500? You definitely should not get SSDs at the apple store...

As an example - Newegg.com has the Intel X25-M 160GB for $449.00. Apple doesn't sell a decent 160GB.
post #26 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

As an example - Newegg.com has the Intel X25-M 160GB for $449.00. Apple doesn't sell a decent 160GB.

I just went with the 80GB Intel X-25 G2. I'm using 25GB. I moved my User folder to my internal 500GB HDD using these simple option:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...71025220746340 I'll be installing the 1TB 2.5" HDD (which does fit) as soon as I get word that the driver incompatibility issue has been resolved.
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post #27 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by emulator View Post

160GB for $500? You definitely should not get SSDs at the apple store...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

As an example - Newegg.com has the Intel X25-M 160GB for $449.00. Apple doesn't sell a decent 160GB.

$449 is "close to $500" and the X25-M is very middle of the road now performance wise anyway, so I am not sure why I got picked up for that.

You can get crappy SSDs for less, but that defeats the object really.

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post #28 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

To those that call TRIM a hack I have a question. How does a storage device or medium (of any kind) know the difference between a file you want to keep vs. one in your trash vs. a deleted file?

You assume a drive needs to know this, when it doesn't. Quality SSDs are over-provisioned--they contain significantly more memory than is necessary to provide the external, advertised storage capacity. All the drive has to do is track which blocks are being used to support the advertised capacity. Unused blocks can be prepped in the background and utilized--quickly swapped into external view--to support fast write operations, which was historically the Achilles heel of SSDs.
post #29 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

$449 is "close to $500" and the X25-M is very middle of the road now performance wise anyway, so I am not sure why I got picked up for that.

You can get crappy SSDs for less, but that defeats the object really.

Where are you finding current performance comparisons?
post #30 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

Where are you finding current performance comparisons?

AnandTech has been detailing the latest SSDs in extensive articles for a couple years now. Truly a great resource. The Intel X-25 is still a great option for the price. While the new SandForce based drives are faster they are more expensive per GB.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2829
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post #31 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The Intel X-25 is still a great option for the price.

Agreed.

Quote:
While the new SandForce based drives are faster they are more expensive per GB.

Unlike other controllers, the write performance of SandForce-based drives is very much dependent on the compressibility of the data. The extreme speeds advertised for these drives were obtained using highly compressible data.
post #32 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post

You assume a drive needs to know this, when it doesn't. Quality SSDs are over-provisioned--they contain significantly more memory than is necessary to provide the external, advertised storage capacity. All the drive has to do is track which blocks are being used to support the advertised capacity. Unused blocks can be prepped in the background and utilized--quickly swapped into external view--to support fast write operations, which was historically the Achilles heel of SSDs.

That is not true. The auto garbage collection feature that's on some OCZ and Intel SSDs requires the drive to be formatted as NTFS (or possibly FAT). The firmware on the drive understands what the OS is doing, and when it sees a file deleted in the volume directory, it can reset the memory block.

The drive does not know what blocks are in use and what blocks aren't after they have been written to by the OS. When you delete a file, the OS simply removes its entry in the volume directory and that's it, the blocks used by the file aren't erased or reset. Without the drive understanding HFS, it hasn't a clue whether the file has been deleted or not. That whole idea of TRIM is once the file is deleted the OS can tell the drive which blocks can be reset, which means the SSD manufacturer doesn't have to write in support for every filesystem.
post #33 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

AnandTech has been detailing the latest SSDs in extensive articles for a couple years now. Truly a great resource. The Intel X-25 is still a great option for the price. While the new SandForce based drives are faster they are more expensive per GB.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2829

Exactly, the Corsair I have is Sandforce based. The Intel SSDs are still excellent; light-years ahead of the 5400rpm drives that ship as standard with the MacBooks and noticably faster then anything Samsung based (i.e. the ones that come with the MBA and are on the Apple websites); they're just not the fastest anymore.

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post #34 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As of the last MBP update the largest drive Apple offers for their notebooks are SSDs by 512GB.

Just a typo I'm sure but since it is significant (changed to 512GB in above quote instead of 12GB).
post #35 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot View Post

Just a typo I'm sure but since it is significant (changed to 512GB in above quote instead of 12GB).

Fixed. Thanks.
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post #36 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristophB View Post

To those that call TRIM a hack I have a question. How does a storage device or medium (of any kind) know the difference between a file you want to keep vs. one in your trash vs. a deleted file?

For magnetic disk, it doesn't matter. For flash it's very important (as I will explain below)

Quote:
Call me crazy but I don't want my storage device to decide what is and isn't garbage.

Your not crazy, you probably just don't understand that flash is fundamentally different from magnetic disk. For flash drives, you absolutely want the drive to know what is fair game for deletion vs. what is valuable data and needs to be saved. The reason is the flash memory cells.

Flash memory cells have to be erased before they can be re-written to. And, relatively speaking, they are rather large. Also, writing to flash is slower than reading, and if you have to write to erase and then write to store the data, it's a double penalty. So, if you fill up all the empty memory cells on your SSD and go to write new data, the drive has to find a relatively empty cell, read the contents of it then write everything back. That's very slow.

TRIM let's the OS tell the drive specifically what is good and what is not (because when you delete a file, all the OS does is erase an entry in the file catalog/directory - that's why you can sometimes un-erase deleted files). The hard drive can, in idle time, re-arrange things so that it always has as many cells that are ready to write to ahead of time. It can do the read/erase/re-write shuffle when you aren't using the drive. This keeps performance high.

As someone else said, it's no fun using an SSD drive and then all the sudden have it perform worse than a floppy I had the first generation Intel in my work Windows laptop, and I hit the proverbial wall - the drive performance was so bad I went back to my old hard drive

The other way to go about it, as has been pointed out, is to have a set amount of reserve space that is hidden from the computer. The drive firmware uses that extra space to do the shuffle to ensure there are flash cells ready to be written to. The OWC Extreme SSD is the only example I know of this model, and I have one in my Mac Pro and it does work. I've been using it for months and no speed degradation - I'm very happy. I'm hoping if Apple does release TRIM support there might be a firmware update so I can get that extra space back, but if not oh well - it's a nice OS agnostic drive that will work with any device - not just computers.
post #37 of 61
God do none of you appleinsiders look up facts before stating complete nonsense. TRIM is a hack? TRIM isn't standard? TRIM is software? lol. WTF!?!
post #38 of 61
This has nothing to do with Apple doing anything new.
It just displayed the information reported by the SSD.
That's why the person gets the "No" from his Intel SSD now because he upgraded to the "HD" firmware, which started supporting TRIM.
post #39 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

For magnetic disk, it doesn't matter. For flash it's very important (as I will explain below)

I do understand what TRIM is and does. I do understand magnetic media does not suffer from writing over a block and why. The threads above mine described garbage collection in terms that sounded like the SSD just "knows" what the user and file system have discarded. That doesn't happen with HFS. My query was to ask them to think through how the SSD "knows". I don't want an SSD that has to have firmware revs every time an vendor revs/fixes the file system software.

Reserve space is a nice temp fix because it'll be used as an alternative to writing over a used block. The SSD will eventually run out of that too.
post #40 of 61
I'm surprised Apple don't have Flash as drive-caches in all their mobile products. With all but heavy file-writing using only a few GBs I'd have though including 8 or 16GB flash as standard would have brought worthwhile performance & battery-life advantages.

Maybe the addition of TRIM support is a sign they're gearing up?

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