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Yankees vs. Red Sox

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Ok, who's excited about this 4 game series? It should be a good one. Both teams are coming off two game losing 'streaks', so no one really has more momentum.

As predicted by many people from around New England, Roger Clemens managed to weasal out of pitching against Pedro Martinez again, getting moved up in the rotation by one day so he doesn't have to pitch against Boston at all.

Hehe. Maybe tomorrow they should get the 'Game 3' chant going again. "Where is Roger? ...... Where is Roger?........"

Any way, the Red Sox starting pitcher has been great so far this season, which is a huge relief to the fans. If Pedro can hold up tomorrow, he should be all right for the season.

As for the series itself, it features a game tomorrow night, a game Saturday afternoon, a game Sunday afternoon, and a game Monday morning. The game starts on Monday morning because it is Patriots Day, and while not a 'national holiday', it's a big deal in MA due to Lexington and Concord, etc. As a result, there is no school, lots of businesses are closed and they run the Boston marathon. They start the game early so when the fans are leaving, they can catch the end of the race in Boston. It's a pretty cool idea.

Any way, it's a new year of baseball and looks to be an interesting weekend of two big rivals (even if it still is only April).
post #2 of 31
Roger is the one over there with the World Series ring.
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post #3 of 31
Fran, a few points:

1) Roger did not weasel out...that is the most tired Boston-we hate losing and we cling to anything to feel good about our miserable selves-bs....Roger has proven his worth. Give it a rest (and yeah, he's had his moments, but nothing justifying the disingenuousness of Red Sox fans).

2) "If Pedro can hold up tomorrow, he should be all right for the season." Hello? Has he ever broken down that early in the season? No, it always has been towards the All-Star break. Again, naive Red Sox, hope-spring eternal nonsense.

3) The Yankeees' have plenty more momentum...all the way back to 1918.

-Jennings
post #4 of 31
yanks take 3 of 4

actually I think they'll sweep but I'll be conservative
post #5 of 31
Bah...I hate baseball today.

Today was very frustrating...A Giants fan turned a catchable Dodgers deep fly into a home run...Dodgers won 4-3.
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post #6 of 31
Yanks will take 3 out of 4.

Besides for Mets-Braves, this is definately a great rivalry.
post #7 of 31
I think I'm going to hang my "Red Sox Suck" banner outside my window this weekend It should solicit exciting reaction since I live right next to Fenway Park
post #8 of 31
Thread Starter 
[quote]Hello? Has he ever broken down that early in the season?<hr></blockquote>

Did you see the Opening Day game or know anything about it? He pitched horribly, and every Red Sox fan was worried about his future. He only pitched until the third inning and gave up tons of runs. Then he pitched very well in his last start. He figured out what he was doing wrong. So my point was that if he pitches 'well' today (pitches through 6 innings), he's all right.

[quote]Roger did not weasel out...that is the most tired Boston-we hate losing and we cling to anything to feel good about our miserable selves-bs....Roger has proven his worth.<hr></blockquote>

Hehehe. I love this one. Roger asked to be moved up in the rotation yesterday so he would not have to pitch against the Red Sox in Fenway Park. Historically, since he has been with the Yankees, the only times he has been 'hurt' has been when he had to face the Red Sox at home. He makes up 'phantom injuries', and its actually well documented. He'd do anything to get out of pitching.

The only reason that he pitched in the 1999 ALCS Game 3 at Fenway Park was because it was an important playoff game. His performance at that game was so embarassing that he was literally heckled out of the park! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[quote]Again, naive Red Sox, hope-spring eternal nonsense. <hr></blockquote>

Wait a minute, are you already counting the Red Sox out in April? Considering all of the progress they've made since they have made since the end of last year (new owners, ousting of Everett, the signing of Tony Clark, and healthy players), it's way to early to say that they are done. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #9 of 31
RED SOX win 3 of 4

Remember folks, it is not yet the time of year for them to fold.

THIS IS THE YEAR!

Mandricard
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post #10 of 31
Fran, I think those two World Series rings make it difficult for him to pitch sometimes. Luckily the Red Sox haven't hindered their players with such obstacles. Those rings are quite large, after all.
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post #11 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by jra55:
<strong>Fran, a few points:

1) Roger did not weasel out...that is the most tired Boston-we hate losing and we cling to anything to feel good about our miserable selves-bs....Roger has proven his worth. Give it a rest (and yeah, he's had his moments, but nothing justifying the disingenuousness of Red Sox fans).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, Roger has proven his worth to the Yankees. That's one reason why Red Sox fans hate him so much. His last years in Boston he seemed to resent the idea that he needed to prove his worth to the Red Sox. His last 4 years in Boston he had a 40-39 record - not very impressive. Only one of those years (1994) was his poor record due to a lack of run support. In 2 of those years his ERA was over 4 runs per game! Moreover, he was not a "money" pitcher in Boston. His best post season ERA in Boston is over a run larger than his worst post season ERA in New York. Try and talk your way around these stats all you want. They don't lie and there's nothing disingenuous about them.
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post #12 of 31
Thread Starter 
Boston wins the first game of the series 3-2 with some great pitching from Darren Oliver. If Urbina lasts much longer as the closer, though, I'm sure people will go nuts.

So the Yankees now have one of those 'rare' 3 game losing streaks. I bet the boss won't be happy about that!
post #13 of 31
Make that a 4-game losing streak.
:cool:
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post #14 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Yeah, Roger has proven his worth to the Yankees. That's one reason why Red Sox fans hate him so much. His last years in Boston he seemed to resent the idea that he needed to prove his worth to the Red Sox. His last 4 years in Boston he had a 40-39 record - not very impressive. Only one of those years (1994) was his poor record due to a lack of run support. In 2 of those years his ERA was over 4 runs per game! Moreover, he was not a "money" pitcher in Boston. His best post season ERA in Boston is over a run larger than his worst post season ERA in New York. Try and talk your way around these stats all you want. They don't lie and there's nothing disingenuous about them.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I guess you could say the same thing about Curt Shilling as well huh. He must have just hated Philly. You know, considering he's pitching so much better in Arizona.



The Yankees have played ugly the last few games. Bad pitching and poor clutch hitting <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #15 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>
I guess you could say the same thing about Curt Shilling as well huh. He must have just hated Philly. You know, considering he's pitching so much better in Arizona.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Really? <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/playoff/8052_playoff.htm" target="_blank">How so</a>? Schilling's postseason numbers last year were the stuff legends are made of but he produced for Philly too. You can't say the same for Roger in Boston. He just never came through for us when October came around.

Also, the difference between Schilling's <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_8052.htm" target="_blank">regular season stats</a> from Philly to Arizona isn't nearly as great as <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_7520.htm" target="_blank">Roger's</a> when he went from Boston to Toronto.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #16 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Really? <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/playoff/8052_playoff.htm" target="_blank">How so</a>? Schilling's postseason numbers last year were the stuff legends are made of but he produced for Philly too. You can't say the same for Roger in Boston. He just never came through for us when October came around.

Also, the difference between Schilling's <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_8052.htm" target="_blank">regular season stats</a> from Philly to Arizona isn't nearly as great as <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_7520.htm" target="_blank">Roger's</a> when he went from Boston to Toronto.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

what are you talking about? October never comes around for you guys


And don't say Roger didn't do extremely well for the Red Sox because he did. A the end he may have had a few "poor" years but who doesn't.

BTW, Pedro looks horrible. He held the Yankees down but all that was special about him appears to be lost. Such a shame <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
post #17 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>BTW, Pedro looks horrible.</strong><hr></blockquote>

He was throwing 95 mph heat. If that's horrible, I'd take that anytime.

If you want to talk about horrible, let's talk about Yankee fielding and relief pitching. Bernie Williams missed a fly ball in center field that hit him in the glove. Mendoza and Rivera were awful.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: jesperas ]</p>
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post #18 of 31
Thread Starter 
[quote]BTW, Pedro looks horrible. He held the Yankees down but all that was special about him appears to be lost. Such a shame <hr></blockquote>

It's all a matter of perspective. Actually, most people here would say that Pedro didn't look bad at all, especially from coming off rotator cuff surgery. After opening day, a lot of people thought he was finished, but he's looking very good right now, all things considered.

Considering that he's making progress every day and getting back into his rhythm every time he pitches, I don't see how you can count him out already. Are you saying the last two innings he pitched weren't typical of the 'healthy' Pedro Martinez? Other than the first inning when he was still really warming up, he looked fine to me.

The thing that really lost the game for the Yankees was their inability to turn a double play. If they had turned those two double plays earlier in the game, especially the one that Giambi bobbled, you might have seen a different outcome.
post #19 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>
what are you talking about? October never comes around for you guys
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm talking about how in '86 it was Bruce Hurst who carried the BoSox into the World Series. I'm talking about later years when they'd win the division and then lose to Oakland. Dave Stewart owned Clemens back then.

[quote]<strong>And don't say Roger didn't do extremely well for the Red Sox because he did. A the end he may have had a few "poor" years but who doesn't. </strong><hr></blockquote>

He never produced for the Sox in the postseason. And I can accept someone having a few bad years but why did he think he deserved a raise after that long dry spell? His pride was hurt because a lot of people were beginning to think he was past his prime back in 1995. It's not like the numbers backed him up. In 1997 he went out and proved his doubters wrong. Good for him. That still doesn't change the fact that for the 4 years prior to that he pitched nowhere near that level. Oh and guess what. None of his paychecks bounced during those 4 years.
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post #20 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by jesperas:
<strong>

He was throwing 95 mph heat. If that's horrible, I'd take that anytime.

If you want to talk about horrible, let's talk about Yankee fielding and relief pitching. Bernie Williams missed a fly ball in center field that hit him in the glove. Mendoza and Rivera were awful.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: jesperas ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

he threw a handful of pitches above at around 94 MPH. So I wouldn't say he was throwing 95 mph heat.

Horrible fielding? Three of the best guys at what they do screw up and all of a sudden they are horrible. great.

Rivera threw one bad pitch that got over the strikezone. It happens aout 3 times a year. Enjoy because it won't happen next time.

[quote]It's all a matter of perspective. Actually, most people here would say that Pedro didn't look bad at all, especially from coming off rotator cuff surgery. After opening day, a lot of people thought he was finished, but he's looking very good right now, all things considered.<hr></blockquote>

give me a break. he doesn't look good. believe what you want because he's your only hope but he doesn't have the overpowering fastball anymore and the thing that made him special, movement on the ball, is nothing anymore.

[quote] Are you saying the last two innings he pitched weren't typical of the 'healthy' Pedro Martinez? Other than the first inning when he was still really warming up, he looked fine to me.<hr></blockquote>

again, you're in denial. you know damn well that he is pitching no where near like he was only a year ago.

[quote]He never produced for the Sox in the postseason. And I can accept someone having a few bad years but why did he think he deserved a raise after that long dry spell?<hr></blockquote>

because he was still one of the premier pitchers in the league and everyone else was getting more money.

[quote]In 1997 he went out and proved his doubters wrong. Good for him. That still doesn't change the fact that for the 4 years prior to that he pitched nowhere near that level. Oh and guess what. None of his paychecks bounced during those 4 years.<hr></blockquote>

you sox fans are big babies man. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
post #21 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by applenut:

He never produced for the Sox in the postseason. And I can accept someone having a few bad years but why did he think he deserved a raise after that long dry spell?

<strong>because he was still one of the premier pitchers in the league...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Back then he wasn't. Or at least he wasn't performing like one for the Red Sox anymore. That's just a fact. Talk your way around it all you want. His record is his record.
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post #22 of 31
Thread Starter 
[quote]you sox fans are big babies man. <hr></blockquote>

Oh, resorting to name calling. That's a sure sign that you know what you're talking about. What, you can't back up your statements with facts?

Here is the fact that's important: Roger Clemens cannot succesfully pitch in Fenway Park during the postseason. It just doesn't happen. He chokes in the big games in Boston.

Plus, the fact that he showed up to spring training the year before he left so overweight that he resembled El Guapo (Rich Garces) in midseason form shows that he really didn't care about pitching in Boston, and that's what really got people angry at him. He signed a contract to play Major League Baseball and pitch in big league games, and he didn't even try and keep himself in good form during the offseason. This is when a lot of people counted him out for good. But after he realized what he had done to himself, he got back into shape and has been pitching well.

Even ESPN had this to say about Clemens

[quote]Earlier in his career, Clemens looked inept in the field and unsure of himself in the stretch.<hr></blockquote>

That would be when he was with the Red Sox. You're experience with Clemens is his time on the Yankees, so I know you're biased, but this guy is no prince by any means. In Boston, he was a detriment to the locker room and some even thought he was a little crazy. Take for example his obsession with 'K'. He lives in Katy (sp?), Texas and he even named his children all with the first letter 'K'.

Any way, back to the topic at hand:
So far, the Red Sox are up in the series 2-1, but the Yankees are back in first place. Tomorrow's game is in the morning at 11 AM.

If you really want to know more about the mindset of the Boston fans right now, you should read Peter Gammon's latest article on ESPN.com:
<a href="http://espn.go.com/gammons/s/2002/0414/1368459.html" target="_blank">http://espn.go.com/gammons/s/2002/0414/1368459.html</a>

Yankee fans are used to winning over the past decade, almost spoiled.

But even despite all of this, despite having not won a World Series since 1918, despite battling it out with the Yankees every year, and despite always having something go wrong, hope reigns eternal here in New England.
post #23 of 31
I've been in Boston for about three years now, and every year it's the same thing: This is the year the Sox will win it all! Reverse the curse, rah rah rah! Usually accompanied by fighting anyone wearing anything remotely promoting any New York sports team.

It's a humorous rivalry when you step back from it all, but I just can't take Red Sox fans seriously anymore There's always a good excuse for why they haven't won a world series in decades
post #24 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by M3D Jack:
<strong>
It's a humorous rivalry when you step back from it all, but I just can't take Red Sox fans seriously anymore There's always a good excuse for why they haven't won a world series in decades</strong><hr></blockquote>

No there isn't. And my complaints about Roger shouldn't be taken that way. If McNamara had substituted Stapleton for Buckner as a defensive replacement late in the game - just like he did all season long - it wouldn't have mattered that Clemens' performance in that series wasn't that impressive. If the front office hadn't traded Sparky Lyle, the '75 series would have been different too. And I always thought that the Sox lost the pennant in '78 when they traded Cecil Cooper for George Scott. None of this takes away anything from the achievements of the teams that beat my team. (The '78 Yankee team and the '75 Reds were great teams.) The Sox should have won those years anyway. I don't know why they didn't. But I sometimes wonder about the other guys: there's something about defeating a worthy opponent that makes the victory greater. After the 6th game of the '75 Series Pete Rose was in some kind of "zone". The Reds had lost the game but he kept going on about what an honor it was to have been a part of something like that. The Yankees have a tradition of greatness but near the top of that tradition would have to be the '78 pennant race and playoff game. These kinds of discussions are part of what being a fan is all about. How many Oakland Raider fans will ever get over that call in last years' playoffs?

One more thing: my biggest problem with the Yankees is Clemens. The rest of the team I like a lot. What's not to like about guys like Giambi, Jeter, Williams, Mussina, Posada, Spencer, Soriano, Rivera and Torre? When the Yanks decided to cut Tino loose I was hoping the Sox would make a play for him. Guys like Ralph Houk and David Cone (and before my time, Elston Howard) brought a lot of professionalism when they came to Boston. But you know, I'm kind of glad Clemens is with the Yankees these days. I needed a good reason to hate them.

[ 04-15-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
The Red Sox take the series and first place from the Yankee with their 4-3 win today.

Derek Lowe pitched a great game, setting a personal career high of strikeouts. El Guapo needs to gain some weight, and fast, as he gave up a few runs in the 8th, but Urbina came in and saved the game.

Shea Hillenbrand had another great game as well, getting some big hits and knocking in a few runs.

So the Red Sox take the series 3-1, and they will face off again in May when NY will be back at Fenway (I'm going to the game on May 25. )

Series like these are what make baseball fun.
post #26 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>The Red Sox take the series and first place from the Yankee with their 4-3 win today.

Derek Lowe pitched a great game, setting a personal career high of strikeouts. El Guapo needs to gain some weight, and fast, as he gave up a few runs in the 8th, but Urbina came in and saved the game.

Shea Hillenbrand had another great game as well, getting some big hits and knocking in a few runs.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lowe and Hillenbrand were great but Garces and Urbina were awfully shaky again. I don't know what the deal is with El Guapo. He's been consistently good for the Sox the last few years. Urbina, I just don't know. He's better as a stopper than Lowe was last year but just about anybody would be. Good victory, though. Long season ahead.
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post #27 of 31
Just my observations.

Pedro's getting better. His pinpoint control isn't back yet, but his velocity and movement on his fastball is up, and he looks a lot less sloppy. I don't know if he'll return to his form of a couple of years ago, but I doubt he's washed up.

What's up with the Yankee's defense? On Saturday they looked terrible. They're getting almost as bad as the Sox when it comes to turning a double play...


I'm a Sox fan, but this isn't the year. I think they're as strong or stronger in the field and at the plate than ever, but their pitching doesn't measure up to either Yankess or Oakland. I don't trust Derek Lowe (although he's pitching fantastically right now), and their only star is a questionable Pedro.
post #28 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by Mandricard:

RED SOX win 3 of 4

...THIS IS THE YEAR!
<hr></blockquote>

Thank you, thank you. No applause, just send cash.

Mandricard
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post #29 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by Bozo the Clown:
<strong>What's up with the Yankee's defense? On Saturday they looked terrible. They're getting almost as bad as the Sox when it comes to turning a double play....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, their defense definitely sucked. But the Sox can turn a double-play now, seeing as how Jose Awfulhands (Offerman) is no longer the everyday 2b.

[quote]<strong>
I'm a Sox fan, but this isn't the year. I think they're as strong or stronger in the field and at the plate than ever, but their pitching doesn't measure up to either Yankess or Oakland. I don't trust Derek Lowe (although he's pitching fantastically right now), and their only star is a questionable Pedro.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i disagree with that assessment of Lowe. Lowe still had 24 saves last year, and blew a few less than Isringhausen did. Some of them were adventures, but 100% of Oogie's saves have been hair-raising so far. And he has had 7 opportunities! The big question about Lowe is whether or not he can hold up to the extra work. As for Pedro, only time will tell, but remember that Burkett and Hermanson (hey, he looked great in that one inning!) will be back, too, and Wakefield's had a great start also. From the beginning, we had to assume that the pitching would be iffy. So far it's been superb, and anything beyond adequate is going to make a huge difference this year.
post #30 of 31
Thread Starter 
I had to come back and post this after Pedro's excellent game last night. This should prove to a lot of the skeptics that he is returning to his old form. He threw 8 innings, giving up 1 hit, striking out 6, and walking no one. It was an excellent performance, and his velocity was terrific.

<a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=220419107" target="_blank">http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=220419107</a>
post #31 of 31
[quote]Originally posted by calamar1:
<strong>
i disagree with that assessment of Lowe. Lowe still had 24 saves last year, and blew a few less than Isringhausen did. Some of them were adventures, but 100% of Oogie's saves have been hair-raising so far.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No question that something's wrong with Oogie. Maybe that's why Little had Garces close last night. That said, Oogie's ineffectiveness doesn't make Lowe into a closer. From the moment he came to the Sox, Lowe wanted to start. He's finally being used in a way that best utilizes his talent. The problem with Lowe as closer is that he's a contact pitcher. He doesn't blow anybody away. He relies on a sinkerball and puts the ball in play. Nothing wrong with that when the bases are clear. But closers often don't come in in situations like that.

Back to Oogie. He's not throwing very hard anymore. Against the Yankees on Patriot's Day he threw a lot of off-speed pitches. That's not the way he's succeeded in the past. I don't know if he's currently having arm problems or the loss of velocity is a consequence of all that surgery. (He's had three of them.) Whatever the reason, I think Little needs a new closer. He's taking a look at Garces. I think he should also consider Arojo.

[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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