Yankees vs. Red Sox

Roger is the one over there with the World Series ring.

Fran, a few points:

1) Roger did not weasel out...that is the most tired Boston-we hate losing and we cling to anything to feel good about our miserable selves-bs....Roger has proven his worth. Give it a rest (and yeah, he's had his moments, but nothing justifying the disingenuousness of Red Sox fans).

2) "If Pedro can hold up tomorrow, he should be all right for the season." Hello? Has he ever broken down that early in the season? No, it always has been towards the All-Star break. Again, naive Red Sox, hope-spring eternal nonsense.

3) The Yankeees' have plenty more momentum...all the way back to 1918.

-Jennings

yanks take 3 of 4

actually I think they'll sweep but I'll be conservative

Bah...I hate baseball today.

Today was very frustrating...A Giants fan turned a catchable Dodgers deep fly into a home run...Dodgers won 4-3.

Yanks will take 3 out of 4.

Besides for Mets-Braves, this is definately a great rivalry.

I think I'm going to hang my "Red Sox Suck" banner outside my window this weekend It should solicit exciting reaction since I live right next to Fenway Park

RED SOX win 3 of 4

Remember folks, it is not yet the time of year for them to fold.

THIS IS THE YEAR!

Mandricard
AppleOutsider

Fran, I think those two World Series rings make it difficult for him to pitch sometimes. Luckily the Red Sox haven't hindered their players with such obstacles. Those rings are quite large, after all.

[quote]Originally posted by jra55:
<strong>Fran, a few points:

1) Roger did not weasel out...that is the most tired Boston-we hate losing and we cling to anything to feel good about our miserable selves-bs....Roger has proven his worth. Give it a rest (and yeah, he's had his moments, but nothing justifying the disingenuousness of Red Sox fans).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, Roger has proven his worth to the Yankees. That's one reason why Red Sox fans hate him so much. His last years in Boston he seemed to resent the idea that he needed to prove his worth to the Red Sox. His last 4 years in Boston he had a 40-39 record - not very impressive. Only one of those years (1994) was his poor record due to a lack of run support. In 2 of those years his ERA was over 4 runs per game! Moreover, he was not a "money" pitcher in Boston. His best post season ERA in Boston is over a run larger than his worst post season ERA in New York. Try and talk your way around these stats all you want. They don't lie and there's nothing disingenuous about them.

Make that a 4-game losing streak.
:cool:

[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Yeah, Roger has proven his worth to the Yankees. That's one reason why Red Sox fans hate him so much. His last years in Boston he seemed to resent the idea that he needed to prove his worth to the Red Sox. His last 4 years in Boston he had a 40-39 record - not very impressive. Only one of those years (1994) was his poor record due to a lack of run support. In 2 of those years his ERA was over 4 runs per game! Moreover, he was not a "money" pitcher in Boston. His best post season ERA in Boston is over a run larger than his worst post season ERA in New York. Try and talk your way around these stats all you want. They don't lie and there's nothing disingenuous about them.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I guess you could say the same thing about Curt Shilling as well huh. He must have just hated Philly. You know, considering he's pitching so much better in Arizona.



The Yankees have played ugly the last few games. Bad pitching and poor clutch hitting <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>
I guess you could say the same thing about Curt Shilling as well huh. He must have just hated Philly. You know, considering he's pitching so much better in Arizona.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Really? <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/playoff/8052_playoff.htm" target="_blank">How so</a>? Schilling's postseason numbers last year were the stuff legends are made of but he produced for Philly too. You can't say the same for Roger in Boston. He just never came through for us when October came around.

Also, the difference between Schilling's <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_8052.htm" target="_blank">regular season stats</a> from Philly to Arizona isn't nearly as great as <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_7520.htm" target="_blank">Roger's</a> when he went from Boston to Toronto.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Really? <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/playoff/8052_playoff.htm" target="_blank">How so</a>? Schilling's postseason numbers last year were the stuff legends are made of but he produced for Philly too. You can't say the same for Roger in Boston. He just never came through for us when October came around.

Also, the difference between Schilling's <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_8052.htm" target="_blank">regular season stats</a> from Philly to Arizona isn't nearly as great as <a href="http://www.sportsline.com/u/baseball/mlb/players/player_7520.htm" target="_blank">Roger's</a> when he went from Boston to Toronto.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

what are you talking about? October never comes around for you guys


And don't say Roger didn't do extremely well for the Red Sox because he did. A the end he may have had a few "poor" years but who doesn't.

BTW, Pedro looks horrible. He held the Yankees down but all that was special about him appears to be lost. Such a shame <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>BTW, Pedro looks horrible.</strong><hr></blockquote>

He was throwing 95 mph heat. If that's horrible, I'd take that anytime.

If you want to talk about horrible, let's talk about Yankee fielding and relief pitching. Bernie Williams missed a fly ball in center field that hit him in the glove. Mendoza and Rivera were awful.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: jesperas ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>
what are you talking about? October never comes around for you guys
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm talking about how in '86 it was Bruce Hurst who carried the BoSox into the World Series. I'm talking about later years when they'd win the division and then lose to Oakland. Dave Stewart owned Clemens back then.

[quote]<strong>And don't say Roger didn't do extremely well for the Red Sox because he did. A the end he may have had a few "poor" years but who doesn't. </strong><hr></blockquote>

He never produced for the Sox in the postseason. And I can accept someone having a few bad years but why did he think he deserved a raise after that long dry spell? His pride was hurt because a lot of people were beginning to think he was past his prime back in 1995. It's not like the numbers backed him up. In 1997 he went out and proved his doubters wrong. Good for him. That still doesn't change the fact that for the 4 years prior to that he pitched nowhere near that level. Oh and guess what. None of his paychecks bounced during those 4 years.

[quote]Originally posted by jesperas:
<strong>

He was throwing 95 mph heat. If that's horrible, I'd take that anytime.

If you want to talk about horrible, let's talk about Yankee fielding and relief pitching. Bernie Williams missed a fly ball in center field that hit him in the glove. Mendoza and Rivera were awful.

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: jesperas ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

he threw a handful of pitches above at around 94 MPH. So I wouldn't say he was throwing 95 mph heat.

Horrible fielding? Three of the best guys at what they do screw up and all of a sudden they are horrible. great.

Rivera threw one bad pitch that got over the strikezone. It happens aout 3 times a year. Enjoy because it won't happen next time.

[quote]It's all a matter of perspective. Actually, most people here would say that Pedro didn't look bad at all, especially from coming off rotator cuff surgery. After opening day, a lot of people thought he was finished, but he's looking very good right now, all things considered.<hr></blockquote>

give me a break. he doesn't look good. believe what you want because he's your only hope but he doesn't have the overpowering fastball anymore and the thing that made him special, movement on the ball, is nothing anymore.

[quote] Are you saying the last two innings he pitched weren't typical of the 'healthy' Pedro Martinez? Other than the first inning when he was still really warming up, he looked fine to me.<hr></blockquote>

again, you're in denial. you know damn well that he is pitching no where near like he was only a year ago.

[quote]He never produced for the Sox in the postseason. And I can accept someone having a few bad years but why did he think he deserved a raise after that long dry spell?<hr></blockquote>

because he was still one of the premier pitchers in the league and everyone else was getting more money.

[quote]In 1997 he went out and proved his doubters wrong. Good for him. That still doesn't change the fact that for the 4 years prior to that he pitched nowhere near that level. Oh and guess what. None of his paychecks bounced during those 4 years.<hr></blockquote>

you sox fans are big babies man. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:

He never produced for the Sox in the postseason. And I can accept someone having a few bad years but why did he think he deserved a raise after that long dry spell?

<strong>because he was still one of the premier pitchers in the league...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Back then he wasn't. Or at least he wasn't performing like one for the Red Sox anymore. That's just a fact. Talk your way around it all you want. His record is his record.

I've been in Boston for about three years now, and every year it's the same thing: This is the year the Sox will win it all! Reverse the curse, rah rah rah! Usually accompanied by fighting anyone wearing anything remotely promoting any New York sports team.

It's a humorous rivalry when you step back from it all, but I just can't take Red Sox fans seriously anymore There's always a good excuse for why they haven't won a world series in decades

[quote]Originally posted by M3D Jack:
<strong>
It's a humorous rivalry when you step back from it all, but I just can't take Red Sox fans seriously anymore There's always a good excuse for why they haven't won a world series in decades</strong><hr></blockquote>

No there isn't. And my complaints about Roger shouldn't be taken that way. If McNamara had substituted Stapleton for Buckner as a defensive replacement late in the game - just like he did all season long - it wouldn't have mattered that Clemens' performance in that series wasn't that impressive. If the front office hadn't traded Sparky Lyle, the '75 series would have been different too. And I always thought that the Sox lost the pennant in '78 when they traded Cecil Cooper for George Scott. None of this takes away anything from the achievements of the teams that beat my team. (The '78 Yankee team and the '75 Reds were great teams.) The Sox should have won those years anyway. I don't know why they didn't. But I sometimes wonder about the other guys: there's something about defeating a worthy opponent that makes the victory greater. After the 6th game of the '75 Series Pete Rose was in some kind of "zone". The Reds had lost the game but he kept going on about what an honor it was to have been a part of something like that. The Yankees have a tradition of greatness but near the top of that tradition would have to be the '78 pennant race and playoff game. These kinds of discussions are part of what being a fan is all about. How many Oakland Raider fans will ever get over that call in last years' playoffs?

One more thing: my biggest problem with the Yankees is Clemens. The rest of the team I like a lot. What's not to like about guys like Giambi, Jeter, Williams, Mussina, Posada, Spencer, Soriano, Rivera and Torre? When the Yanks decided to cut Tino loose I was hoping the Sox would make a play for him. Guys like Ralph Houk and David Cone (and before my time, Elston Howard) brought a lot of professionalism when they came to Boston. But you know, I'm kind of glad Clemens is with the Yankees these days. I needed a good reason to hate them.

[ 04-15-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Fran441:
<strong>The Red Sox take the series and first place from the Yankee with their 4-3 win today.

Derek Lowe pitched a great game, setting a personal career high of strikeouts. El Guapo needs to gain some weight, and fast, as he gave up a few runs in the 8th, but Urbina came in and saved the game.

Shea Hillenbrand had another great game as well, getting some big hits and knocking in a few runs.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Lowe and Hillenbrand were great but Garces and Urbina were awfully shaky again. I don't know what the deal is with El Guapo. He's been consistently good for the Sox the last few years. Urbina, I just don't know. He's better as a stopper than Lowe was last year but just about anybody would be. Good victory, though. Long season ahead.

Just my observations.

Pedro's getting better. His pinpoint control isn't back yet, but his velocity and movement on his fastball is up, and he looks a lot less sloppy. I don't know if he'll return to his form of a couple of years ago, but I doubt he's washed up.

What's up with the Yankee's defense? On Saturday they looked terrible. They're getting almost as bad as the Sox when it comes to turning a double play...


I'm a Sox fan, but this isn't the year. I think they're as strong or stronger in the field and at the plate than ever, but their pitching doesn't measure up to either Yankess or Oakland. I don't trust Derek Lowe (although he's pitching fantastically right now), and their only star is a questionable Pedro.

[quote]Originally posted by Mandricard:

RED SOX win 3 of 4

...THIS IS THE YEAR!
<hr></blockquote>

Thank you, thank you. No applause, just send cash.

Mandricard
AppleOutsider

[quote]Originally posted by Bozo the Clown:
<strong>What's up with the Yankee's defense? On Saturday they looked terrible. They're getting almost as bad as the Sox when it comes to turning a double play....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, their defense definitely sucked. But the Sox can turn a double-play now, seeing as how Jose Awfulhands (Offerman) is no longer the everyday 2b.

[quote]<strong>
I'm a Sox fan, but this isn't the year. I think they're as strong or stronger in the field and at the plate than ever, but their pitching doesn't measure up to either Yankess or Oakland. I don't trust Derek Lowe (although he's pitching fantastically right now), and their only star is a questionable Pedro.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i disagree with that assessment of Lowe. Lowe still had 24 saves last year, and blew a few less than Isringhausen did. Some of them were adventures, but 100% of Oogie's saves have been hair-raising so far. And he has had 7 opportunities! The big question about Lowe is whether or not he can hold up to the extra work. As for Pedro, only time will tell, but remember that Burkett and Hermanson (hey, he looked great in that one inning!) will be back, too, and Wakefield's had a great start also. From the beginning, we had to assume that the pitching would be iffy. So far it's been superb, and anything beyond adequate is going to make a huge difference this year.

[quote]Originally posted by calamar1:
<strong>
i disagree with that assessment of Lowe. Lowe still had 24 saves last year, and blew a few less than Isringhausen did. Some of them were adventures, but 100% of Oogie's saves have been hair-raising so far.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No question that something's wrong with Oogie. Maybe that's why Little had Garces close last night. That said, Oogie's ineffectiveness doesn't make Lowe into a closer. From the moment he came to the Sox, Lowe wanted to start. He's finally being used in a way that best utilizes his talent. The problem with Lowe as closer is that he's a contact pitcher. He doesn't blow anybody away. He relies on a sinkerball and puts the ball in play. Nothing wrong with that when the bases are clear. But closers often don't come in in situations like that.

Back to Oogie. He's not throwing very hard anymore. Against the Yankees on Patriot's Day he threw a lot of off-speed pitches. That's not the way he's succeeded in the past. I don't know if he's currently having arm problems or the loss of velocity is a consequence of all that surgery. (He's had three of them.) Whatever the reason, I think Little needs a new closer. He's taking a look at Garces. I think he should also consider Arojo.

[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>