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Thanks for the money, America!

post #1 of 117
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 117
You're welcome, Israel, I'm glad I can pay money out of my moth-filled pocket to fuel your murderous ways.

proud resident of a failed state
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post #3 of 117
Yes, and I can assume that for you Palestinians are purely victims here, right? Get over yourself. Everybody is dead, flat, utterly, damnably wrong over there, so get off your soap box (a very safe distance from the real tragedies I might point out). Palestinians have a right to resist Israeli occupation. Israel has the right to exist. Both sides have taken the absolute wrong approaches to their battle for existence, which of course only fuels even more evil acts. No one here is a victim. They are all wrong. They can all go to hell.
post #4 of 117
Every civilian, both israeli and palestinian, is a victim...
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post #5 of 117
Assumptions generally make someone look like an ass.
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post #6 of 117
<a href="http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wosaud132666784apr13.story?coll=ny%2Dworldnews%2Dh eadlines" target="_blank">Thanks for the money Saudi Arabia!</a>

"Riyadh, Saudi Arabia - A Saudi telethon raised more than $92 million for the Palestinians by late Friday - nearly a third of it from a prince whose donation to the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks was rejected by former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani."

Really, only one side of the story? Saudi Arabia has been financing terrorism for all of the Muslim extremists for decades...give some slack...

Oh, and yes...I do believe the world is going to sh!t. That good 'ol time religion...and the Saudi's are the scum of the Earth.

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Artman @_@ ]</p>
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post #7 of 117
Hey Oswald, Glad you could turn a Mac forum into a political arena so you can pedel your PLO propaganda!
I have only one question though. Where are the pictures of the bombing victims from Israel to show both sides of the story?
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post #8 of 117
$92 million v. the billions Israel gets from the U.S. alone... hmmm.

They're both immoral screwups, but let's not start acting like they're equals.
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post #9 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by skaione:
<strong>Hey Oswald, Glad you could turn a Mac forum into a political arena so you can pedel your PLO propaganda!
I have only one question though. Where are the pictures of the bombing victims from Israel to show both sides of the story?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought this was AppleOutsider...
post #10 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>Yes, and I can assume that for you Palestinians are purely victims here, right? Get over yourself. Everybody is dead, flat, utterly, damnably wrong over there, so get off your soap box (a very safe distance from the real tragedies I might point out). Palestinians have a right to resist Israeli occupation. Israel has the right to exist. Both sides have taken the absolute wrong approaches to their battle for existence, which of course only fuels even more evil acts. No one here is a victim. They are all wrong. They can all go to hell.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with you. I don't know anything about how the conflict started over there but I personally believe that both sides are wrong..
post #11 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>$92 million v. the billions Israel gets from the U.S. alone... hmmm.

They're both immoral screwups, but let's not start acting like they're equals.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed, but this was a telethon. I watched some of it and it was sickening. School children in Saudi Arabia making slingshots to be donated for the young "martyrs" to stone the Israeli solders in the streets? Sickening!

So I guess you're right they are both (no all, including USA) equally immoral screwups.
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post #12 of 117
Slingshots? Oh no! I'm sure the IDF lives in fear while sitting in American-made armor tanks of slingshots and rocks.

And the Palestinians are absolute morons for throwing/sling-shotting rocks at people with automatic weapons.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #13 of 117
Eh the Middle East is the most miss-guided, screwed up, miss-educated, ill-informed, ruthless, vengefull, and sick part of the whole damn world. Always has been, always will be. No one has any respect for anyone else. They just resort to massacures, and suicide bombing's. That do nothing for either side, but dig a bigger grave for their fat ignorant selves. It would be nice if we could cut all our oil imports from the middle east and cut the bastards off before their spiral of death bring's down the whole world. Earth isnt messed up, just the damn middle east. The word 'sense' has no meaning over there.
"What makes a man turn... neutral?" -Futurama
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post #14 of 117
[quote]And the Palestinians are absolute morons for throwing/sling-shotting rocks at people with automatic weapons. <hr></blockquote>

Definately. If all you have is a slingshot, don't pick a fight with a trained soldier toting an M-16A2.
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post #15 of 117
Where are all the pics of the terrorists blowing up themselves and innocent people? Has your jaded, biased media been hiding them? Do people really think that one side is better than the other?

By all means - kill yourself. Just do it alone!
post #16 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:
<strong>

I agree with you. I don't know anything about how the conflict started over there but I personally believe that both sides are wrong..</strong><hr></blockquote>

From what I've pieced together, the problems really got bad with British Mandate Palestine...Palestinians then had a land to themselves, but it was under British control...then that got revoked and The UN Partition Plan went into effect. Basically, all the West Bank, Gaza, and a few other bits and pieces were designated Palestine. The other half of the area was given to Israel. Jerusalem, completely surrounded by Palestinian territory, was designated an international area.

Israel seemed content with its share. Palestine got wound up in an Egyptian/Jordanian ploy to attack Israel...and they blindly allowed troops from those countries to enter Palestine and fight Israel 'for Palestine.'

Israel fought back and decimated Palestine, taking much of the land. Egypt and Jordan each took a piece of the pie too. Egypt was content with Gaza and Jordan had gained much of the West Bank.

In my eye, the 20th century clashes were not started by the Israelis.
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post #17 of 117
&lt;sarcasm&gt;I think both sides are evil and so is the U.S. we should all kill ourselves and save the trees while in the process. And damn those Israeli people Don't they know if they fight back then there is twice as much fighting. They should just let the suicide bombers keep killing them. Then we can all feel good about how there isn't a warzone with civilian casualties. Well except for the ones in the israeli neighborhoods. And maybe the jews dont have a right to exsist. I mean didnt they bring down Germany at one time? &lt;/sarcasm&gt;

C'mon, none of this conflict is new. Everyone knows Arabs hated Jews for centuries. Why does everyone have to pretend that they don't.

Ask yourselves this question, How do you reason or make peace with someone who wants you to die no matter what? Americans are finding themselves in the same position with other countries and even our own. After 9/11 we just don't know if our next trip to StarbucksĀ® will be the last, but it isn't even close to what Israel has to worry about

Why does everyone Sh!t on us? Who cares who made the frickin ambulances and armored cars. Hey guess where your gasoline came from, It was purchased from Saudi oil fields, with U.S. Money!. You know, the nation that held the telethon! By the way The U.S. gives a hell of a lot of foreign aid to the Palestinians too.

No one is our friend! We die alone!

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: skaione ]

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: skaione ]</p>
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post #18 of 117
[quote] I thought this was AppleOutsider...
<hr></blockquote>

Oh I'm sorry I'm not a posting pro like you! I didn't read the title of the forum I just blindly clicked on "Hey America You evil sons a bitches" or whatever it said.
There's nothing like pointing out the shortcomings of others and I hope it feels good!
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post #19 of 117
[quote]Israel seemed content with its share.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Riiiight... Israel just wants its little alotment and no more. Noble, peaceful Israel.

FYI, ~30% of pre-Israel palestine was Jewish. ~65% was Arab. What essentially happened was that one race in the area got big guns and big money and big protection and one didn't. Israel has been protected by the U.S. in its internationally condemned activities for decades.

Noble, peaceful Israel. No Zionistic tendencies influencing anything, never.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #20 of 117
[quote] I didn't read the title of the forum <hr></blockquote>

Don't read much do you. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Ok now that this has degraded into a mud-slinging flame-fest, im done.

if you want to talk go to "Violence in Israel/Palestine" and see some real views. No photos (well some about Jesus)
post #21 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by skaione:
<strong>

Oh I'm sorry I'm not a posting pro like you! I didn't read the title of the forum I just blindly clicked on "Hey America You evil sons a bitches" or whatever it said.
There's nothing like pointing out the shortcomings of others and I hope it feels good!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Your inability to recognize the forum you're posting in is a shortcoming? Well then...

Maybe if I didn't point it out, you'd still be unaware of your error. I like to think of it as community service.

Seriously though, it wasn't meant as an insult, I think others around here will know I tend not to do that. You need to relax a little if you're that high strung.
post #22 of 117
I will host a party the day the US steps out of this mess and lets the Palestinians and Israelis finish each other off.

You're all invited.
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post #23 of 117
Groverat, the land area was probably fine. In fact, the partitioning was designed to appease the Palestinians who had already settled in the area...that's why the border lines actually created so many segments.



Still, Israel didn't strike first. For all we know, they were ready to take what they got, but when they were attacked they used it as an excuse to take the land.
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post #24 of 117
Thread Starter 
[quote]C'mon, none of this conflict is new. Everyone knows Arabs hated Jews for centuries. Why does everyone have to pretend that they don't.<hr></blockquote>
Incorrect. Jews peacefully lived with Mohammedans for centuries. Indeed, they were often expelled from Christian europe into Moorish/Arab countries
post #25 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Slingshots? Oh no! I'm sure the IDF lives in fear while sitting in American-made armor tanks of slingshots and rocks.

And the Palestinians are absolute morons for throwing/sling-shotting rocks at people with automatic weapons.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Some just don't get it. I think it is sickening that the Palestinians have indoctrinated their children with their rhetoric to the point that now the children want to join the bomber-belt freaks.

The Saudi's are fostering this by sending these simple weapons as a message. That message being, "Little ones, you're not old enough, stay with your younger brothers on the "front lines" and use our "gifts" to disrupt the IDF!" The children think that they'll die and receive the blessing of Allah and also 72 virgins (ironic, they are all virgins themselves) Of course the whole idea is an idiotic and sickening religious joke.

The Saudis have been funding terrorist camps in Lebanon for years. The same ones who join the groups spread out not only in the Middle East, but in Europe, Africa, Asia, Philippines and everywhere else where there is a Saudi funded terrorist camp cloaked as an "Islamic Teaching Center".

Here's and idea. Let the Saudi's, Suddam Hussein, Libya and all the others keep funding the Palestinians. Pretty soon they will blow up all their young women and children...problem solved...

&lt;Artman puts blinders on...gets on with own life...&gt;

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: Artman @_@ ]</p>
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post #26 of 117
[quote] Still, Israel didn't strike first. For all we know, they were ready to take what they got, but when they were attacked they used it as an excuse to take the land. <hr></blockquote>

C'mon Eugene, you just have to read the statements of the isreali leaders at the time to see that they were far from happy, They actually felt betrayed by the british when the didn't get all the land. Their ultimate goal (in the beginning) was to have parts of egypt, jordan, syria and lebanon as well. (It still is for some extreem zionists). At the present the goals of "expansionistic zionist" (but not offical israeli policy), is to control all of the palestinian territories (all of the west bank and gaza). It is worth mentioning that the Likud has abandoned the idea of "greater israel" and that only a small precentage on the "far-right" among israeli political parties are opposed to giving any land to the palestinians...

Imagine how a palstinian feels about seeing maps like this all the time?


[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #27 of 117
I keep hearing this term, Zionistic. Are the jews plotting to take over the world? Oh no! heaven help us all. Seriously what does 'zionist' really mean and why shouldn't i think anyone that uses the term 'zionist' is nothing but an anti-semite just as anyone that uses the term 'towel-head' is an anti-arab?
post #28 of 117
Zionism is (as an idea) not negative in itself. It is a movement to unite the jewish people and astablish them in a common "homeland".
The movement's name is comes from Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was located. Zionism was first applied to this movement in 1890 by the Jewish philosopher Birnbaum.
you can look it up in any encyclopedia.
What has been done is history, but what you have to ask yourself is how the zionist ideas are consistent with the task of running a modern democratic country today, (with large ethnic minorities)?

[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
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post #29 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>

C'mon Eugene, you just have to read the statements of the isreali leaders at the time to see that they were far from happy, They actually felt betrayed by the british when the didn't get all the land. Their ultimate goal (in the beginning) was to have parts of egypt, jordan, syria and lebanon as well. (It still is for some extreem zionists). At the present the goals of "expansionistic zionist" (but not offical israeli policy), is to control all of the palestinian territories (all of the west bank and gaza). It is worth mentioning that the Likud has abandoned the idea of "greater israel" and that only a small precentage on the "far-right" among israeli political parties are opposed to giving any land to the palestinians...

Imagine how a palstinian feels about seeing maps like this all the time?


[ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you can find quotes from the time period, feel free to link them. The one fact remains: Israel did not strike first (in 20th Century.)

And as you say, only extreme Zionists want all the land...so do extreme Palestinians.
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post #30 of 117
Israel has struk first, in 1967 and 1982...

1982 isn't even a question, but if you have doubts about 1967, here's a good source:
Prime Minister Menachem Begin, in a speech delivered at the Israeli National Defense College, clearly stated that: "The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him" (Jerusalem Post, 20 August 1982)
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post #31 of 117
here's one:

"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936
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post #32 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Israel has struk first, in 1967 and 1982...</strong><hr></blockquote>About 1967:
1. Egypt had blockaded Israel, which is considered an act of war.
2. they had been putting troops on the border and making daily statements to the effect of "we will destroy Israel completely," "we will correct the error that is Israel," blah blah.
3. Jordan did attack Israel first, which led to the taking of the West Bank.
4. Syria also had been shelling Israel first, from the Golan heights, which Israel then also took.
5. The Arab countries had sent dozens of terrorists to attack Israel in the previous year or two before the six day war.

Let me ask you New - would you say that Israel "attacked first" in this past month's military action of Israel into the West Bank?
post #33 of 117
Israeli troop movement in 1967 does not predate the Palestinian/Arab invasion in the 1948.
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post #34 of 117
So that war went on for 19 years? interesting...

I guess that's why it's still justifiable for them to be settling territory that's not there, since the war is apparently 54 years old now.

"We are at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eurasia."

Israel is violent and aggressive. They are even settling territory that's not theirs!

It takes a blind/deaf/mentally retarded man to conclude that either side is "right".
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post #35 of 117
No matter how much you disagree with Israeli military action in the West Bank (and I happen to think that Ariel Sharon is the biggest idiot in Israeli history), it cannot be used to justify Palestinian terrorism. Walking into a Bat Mitzvah reception and blowing yourself up is not justifiable under any circumstances. In my opinion, both sides are equally to blame for the current re-ignition of the Intifadeh. Palestinian suicide bombers are at fault for obvious reasons, and the Orthodox (or should we call them fundamentalist) Jews, who don't pay taxes and don't participate in the army, keep calling on Israel to annihilate the Palestinians and expand the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. While the Orthodox Jews only comprise &lt;20% of the population, they have an inordinate influence in Israeli affairs to the nature of the Israeli electoral system.

So, what are possible solutions? First, a retooling of the Israeli electoral system, away from a proportional system like that which plagued the French 4th republic toward a British/American system of regional elections would minimize the overstated power of the religious extremists in Israel. Recent polls show that upwards of 80% of Israelis, while supporting military action, still support land-for-peace! However, the domination of the religious orthodoxy in the current system prevents any reasonable solution.

Additionally, Arafat must make statements (in Arabic!) condemning violence. I'm of the opinion that Arafat really no longer has any control over Hamas or Islamic Jihad, but until he openly criticizes them, we can't be certain of his true intentions.

This is not a situation that is as simple as weighing the impact American dollars versus Saudi telethons. The Arab states who may actually be supporting the Palestinians are actually the biggest hypocrites. As mentioned by an earlier forum poster, the Palestinians were hung out to dry by the Syrians and Egyptians in 1948 and then massacred by the Jordanians in the 1970s. They have no right to criticize Israeli action. That's my $5.02 .
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post #36 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>So that war went on for 19 years? interesting...

I guess that's why it's still justifiable for them to be settling territory that's not there, since the war is apparently 54 years old now.

"We are at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eurasia."

Israel is violent and aggressive. They are even settling territory that's not theirs!

It takes a blind/deaf/mentally retarded man to conclude that either side is "right".</strong><hr></blockquote>


What? The point is that they hadn't settled in land that wasn't designated theirs by the UN...until they were attacked...until the Palestinians decided to encroach on Israeli territory. It's common for the winning side to conquer the losing side in war, isn't it? Even if they didn't start it.

And I didn't claim either side was right. Both sides are culpable, but is it possible one side is more guilty than the other?

You hear about one side leveling cities, scouring it for rebels. You hear about the other side stoning children until they are dead and their faces are unrecognizable.
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post #37 of 117
[quote]The point is that they hadn't settled in land that wasn't designated theirs by the UN...until they were attacked...until the Palestinians decided to encroach on Israeli territory. It's common for the winning side to conquer the losing side in war, isn't it? Even if they didn't start it.<hr></blockquote>

1) Not common.
2) Against international law.

You don't settle territory that isn't yours. You can't acquire territory through force. Thems the rules, rules the Israelis have ignored for decades.

[quote]Both sides are culpable, but is it possible one side is more guilty than the other?<hr></blockquote>

It's possible, but not in this case.

[quote]You hear about one side leveling cities, scouring it for rebels. You hear about the other side stoning children until they are dead and their faces are unrecognizable.<hr></blockquote>

Both sides are monstrous. Levelling the cities involves killing women and children. Terrorist attacks involve killing women and children.

Honestly, does organized mass-murder hold any moral weight over disorganized mass-murder?
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post #38 of 117
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
1) Not common.
2) Against international law.

You don't settle territory that isn't yours. You can't acquire territory through force. Thems the rules, rules the Israelis have ignored for decades.
<hr></blockquote>

Hate to get theoretical on you, but this is my field of study. There really is no international law. Sure, there are treaties, etc, but for it to truly be a rule, there must be enforcement, and there isn't any. The chief rule in the game of international relations is that you do anything that you can do to survive. Israelis felt threatened by neighbors, they took land to ensure survival. Simple as that. Man, Waltz would be proud of me now...
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post #39 of 117
Conquest is very common, especially when you don't feel guilty because you didn't start the tussle. The US occupied Japan after WWII. We still occupy Okinawa. Had we won in Vietnam and Korea, we'd occupy them too.

[quote]Both sides are monstrous. Levelling the cities involves killing women and children. Terrorist attacks involve killing women and children.

Honestly, does organized mass-murder hold any moral weight over disorganized mass-murder?<hr></blockquote>

As in Somalia, many of these people offer themselves as human shields. how do you kill a rebel who is shooting you with his AK-47 between the legs of an 'innocent' woman?

And I would prefer death from mortar fire or a bomb blast to death from being stoned to unrecognizable and beaten into pulp.
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post #40 of 117
Like Eugene said, it's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about who is righter and who is wronger. And even THAT is a fine line.
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