Israel/Palestine: What we can agree on (now on a higher level)?!?

I agree with everything you said however, in reference to #3, Sharon would never have moved into Palestinian areas if there were no homicide bombers sent against Israeli citizens. I feel Israel had a right to respond and move in to weed out the bomb making materials and terrorists but they should not have been so destructive to property and should not have banned the media from the area.............................................. .

Thanx for a constructive post Anders! Let's try to keep this thread forward thinking and solution oriented, instead of digging ourselves into the trenches of historical discussions...

my take:
[1]Agreed, but there should also be no more confiscation of palestinian property within Israel, an then there is the question of Jerusalem of course...
[2]Agree, but what about military targets? Do the palestinians have a right to strike against them, an if so, in which manner (since the don't have any tanks themselves)...?
[3]Agree, but Sharon is not a one man army... he has much support for his actions...

(not to anal is it? )

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).<hr></blockquote>

Overall I agree. Not too sure about the financial compensation, but sounds good so far.

[quote]2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.<hr></blockquote>

Agree. And as far as what New had to say, take those bombs, take them off of the men and out of the civlian areas and attack military targets, if you are at war with said country. I believe that the point is to end the war though.

[quote]3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.<hr></blockquote>

Not sure at this point. Leaning towards agree on the civilian side and disagree on the fact that Israel has been striking civilians at random like you seem to be stating. No civilians should be attacked by a military presence. If they are throwing rocks or bottles of flaming liquids at military soldiers, they are not innocent bystanders. If they are shooting guns, they are not innocent bystanders. If they are running to get out of the way and hiding behind things or just walking by and observing only they are innocent bystanders.

That may be too nitpicky for you though.

[2]Agree, but what about military targets? Do the palestinians have a right to strike against them, an if so, in which manner (since the don't have any tanks themselves)...?

You seriously thing other Arab nations will not help fortify their (Palestinian) military to the point where they will feel confident enough to war against Israel? Sadam will be the first in line to offer support.

I disagree with you on all your points.

Point #1] If the Arabs want to create another state for themselves let them do it on their own lands, NOT ours. And frankly your call to dismantle or abandon settlement is racist pure and simple. If you want to go that route than you should also be calling for the uprooting of Arabs from cities and villages in Israel. And if compensation is to be paid, it should also be paid to those Jews and Israelis forced to leave their homes in Arab states during the years of the conflict.

Point #2] War crimes have been committed. By the Arabs. Those responsible need to be held accountable. Period.

Point #3] I cant understand the distinction youre trying to make from point #2.


I know youd like to settle this politically, but until there is a consensus (and right now there isnt) between the Arabs and the Jews as to what belong to whom, everything else is just an exercise in futility.


mika.

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

so, pc_killa, you're essentially saying that Palestine shouldn't be allowed it's allotted territory?

PC^, in your view, what is going on in the occupied territories now? Is it a clean antiseptic raid as the media in Israel is reporting or is it the butchery that the world is seeing? Israel is doing some awful things right now to the people of palestine and they don't want people to see.

[quote]1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).<hr></blockquote>

Agreed, that is step one. But once there is a unified contiguous Palestinian territory (as opposed to a randomly spread and divided "Swiss Cheese" collection of bits and pieces), there a whole new slew of problems waiting: First, they will have to assemble a group of administrators/politicians/whatever with the skills to run an independent (and hopefully democratic) state. They have no track record of doing this. Then, what will Palestine be geographically? Can and will it ever be an economically viable state? What natural resources, agricultural land, industry is there, or can there be? Tourism as opposed to terrorism? If not viable economically, then it will become a drain in the region; Israel cannot be expected to support them, and the rest of the Arab world, if history is anything to go on, will not care; those oil-rich states nearby aren't going to lift a finger to help.

What about the terrorists of Hamas, Hezbollah and al Aqsa? Those people aren't going to want to peaceful solution because it means that the object of their irrational hatred, Israel, will still be there. The suicide bombers are just the most public figures in these organizations and their other members get *paid* to do their dirty work, and receive funds from other sources. Just because there is suddenly an independent Palestinian state, this isn't going to stop the extremists in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and the future Palestine, whose goal is to *eliminate* Israel and they won't stop their terrorist tactics until that happens. Look what the Saudis have just done: rather than raise $100 million to help rebuild the devastation inflicted by the IDF in the occupied territories, bury the dead and buy food and medical supplies, instead they intend on funding more violence and suicide bombers.

Then there's Israels' intent. United Nations Resolutions are so much waste paper in Sharon's eyes; he obviously doesn't want a free independent Palestine co-existing in peace with Israel. Since he came to power, the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and villages together with building settlements in disputed areas and occupied territories has accelerated. Sharon is a professional military man, and not stupid; he knew exactly what the results of those policies would be.

[quote]2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.<hr></blockquote>

Agreed. But when extreme religion (gross distortion of original teachings) enters the picture, all hell breaks loose by default. How can those maniacs be somehow re-educated that terror tactics are anti-Islamic?

[quote]3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.<hr></blockquote>

Since terrorism is a major part of the equation re. the Israel-Paelstinian conflict, and the term has been thrown around in the media like so much confetti, here is the Department of Defense definition of terrorism:

"The calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious or ideological".

According to this U.S. definition, both the Palestine extremist organizations *and* Israeli military are guilty of terrorism. When it comes to terrorism, there must not be any double standards; it only goes to shoot in the foot our own mission to rid the world of terror. The Palestine suicide bombers are terrorists and funded by shadowy parties in the Arab world. The Israeli military have used terrorist tactics against Palestinian civilians on a large scale, supplied and funded by U.S. money and weapons. "Moral clarity" is a phrase that has been used over and over by Bush since 9-11. Moral clarity means in this case "fighting terrorism wherever and whenever it occurs". It seems that our "moral clarity" isn't quite so clear as it could, or should be..

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>

SJO, I am unsure why I read your posts, I never agree with you and I usually end up wondering how you believe what you believe. It is like watching a train wreck, I just can't look away.

However this time you did not loose me completely until the end. I still believe that desperate times call for desperate measures. Israel is in desperate times. Palestine is also because they cannot seem to keep their bombs out of Israel's population...

Heheh Noah you just stole my post.

The first and second paragraphs were almost there, after that it went down hill. But many points Samantha raised show a psychological insight that many here fail to see, or failed to admit to. The Brits and the French are not stupid. Theres a reason why they achieved what they achieved on the worlds geopolitical stage. Anyway, I guess what Im trying to say is that, the whole division of the land the way it has, was a non-starter from day one. The Arabs knew/know it, and so did/do the Jews. The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life. Its an all or nothing affair. Sorry to say this. I wish it was different, but this game was rigged from the beginning.

Anyone who thinks different is just kidding themselves. There might be interim solutions but they will all collapse from their inherent contradictions.

mika.

P.S. thentro, YOU might think your comments are cute theyre not.

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

Good points !

[quote]1: The ultimate goal must be a free Palestine in the occupied areas. The settlements must be abandonned. The palestineans that originate from Israel must accept that they can´t return but get a compensation for the confiscated property (almost the same as resolution 242).
<hr></blockquote>


As an Israeli I will agree with this completely !


[quote]2: Suicide bombs are terrorism and is NOT acceptable despite whatever situation that lead people to do such things. The Palestinian organisations that organize the suicide missions doesn´t want a solution to the conflict and use the suicide bombers for their own end.
<hr></blockquote>

Agree here as well , I would also add to this the fact that not only the extreme groups take part in terror . Threads from this mess lead all the way up to Arafat himself.
He is basically trying to use terror as a tool for pressuring Israel into political concessions.

[quote]3: The warfare against civilian palestinians is NOT acceptable despite what higher purpose it serves. Sharon have never wanted anything like the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians and use the current war/conflict to make his recentment against Oslo all of Israels.
<hr></blockquote>

Read this well ,THERE IS NO ISRAELI WAR AGAINST PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS !
Israel is defending itself ! quite a few Israeli soldiers have died because the IDF tries to be so surgical in its operations. I mean compare this with the huge number of civilian casualties the US and NATO have caused in Kosovo and Afghanistan ..... but its easy to pick on the IDF isn't it ? its not like they have anything like the propaganda machine that NATO/US have...

Also remember that many of those buildings you saw destroyed in Jenin have been destroyed as a result of the Palestinian militants booby traping them and trying to explode them on top of Israeli soldiers

Its not Israel's fault that these people choose to hide in the most dense and heavily populated places in the west bank ...

Remember that before the current incursions began there was a serious attempt by Sharon to get a ceasefire agreed on, Anthony Zini was doing his best to get the sides talking and Israel withdrew all its forces back and stopped all aggressive actions against the Palestinians, The Palestinian response was dozens of suicide bombings resulting in the death of more then 150 Israelis.
Since the current operation began there have been 2 suicide attacks, that's 2 in 3 weeks now you can say what you like but Israel's strategy is working at lest in achieving the most important thing to Israelis and that's restoring security.

[quote]The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life.<hr></blockquote>

So the group that's killed the most has the most respect for the sanctity of human life? Interesting logic, that.

You're an unabashed racist.

Self-defense by settling and occupation, wonderful idea.

We all agree that we all hate one another. Sort of like agreeing to disagree.

I don't belive it.

It's no wonder that there isn't peace in the middleeast. With so many people that are not interested to take a critical look at one self.

I'm lacking words - I just don't belive it.

Shame on you.

How about this for something we can all agree on:

Both Hamas/PLO and the Sharon government need to be ousted and replaced by people who aren't terrorists for the mutual benefit of the Israeli and Palestinian people.

[quote]SJO, I am unsure why I read your posts, I never agree with you and I usually end up wondering how you believe what you believe. It is like watching a train wreck, I just can't look away.<hr></blockquote>

Whatever, Noah. Can you be a bit more specific in your arrogance?

[quote]However this time you did not loose me completely until the end. I still believe that desperate times call for desperate measures. Israel is in desperate times. Palestine is also because they cannot seem to keep their bombs out of Israel's population...<hr></blockquote>

Why did I lose you at the end? That last paragraph was most specific, in that I was quoting words that were uttered by President Bush, who I am sure you support, from reading your posts. Or are you saying that you support terrorism by those with whom you sympathise? Or are you so in denial that you feel that the USA is always morally uninpeachable in its actions? Or are you saying that it is impossible for Israel to commit acts of terrorism, no matter what they do?

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>

quote:
You're an unabashed racist.

Why am I a racist? Because I disagree with you as to what I believe belongs to the Jews and I think belongs to the Arabs?

I think Israel is one of the most diverse society on earth that I know of. Ive been to many places, and rarely have I seen the diversity of peoples that exists in Israel. When the Ethiopians arrived to Israel in the airlift operations Moses and Solomon I literally wept.

I have friends in Israel from every possible nationality you can think of. Many of then also disagree with me. Some even called my views radical. Thats fine. I dont think we as Jews ever renounced our claims to our lands no matter what. And Im certainly not going to start now because some Arabs got it into their heads that Israel belongs to them.

Like I said before, after the fall of Judea to the Romans all the peoples who ruled of our land were basically thieves who stole from thieves who stole from thieves and just because a stolen property has been passed around many times, does not make it any less of a stolen property.

mika.

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

Both Hamas/PLO and the Sharon government need to be ousted and replaced by people who aren't terrorists for the mutual benefit of the Israeli and Palestinian people.

How do you oust Hamas? Seriously. They are an oganization devoted to terrorism. Wait let me explain that in a language people here will understand: hamas are innocent freedom fighters!

You can't attack the country Hamas is based in... because they are spread out all over the place. Like Al Queda you need the cooperation of many other countries. but in this case since it is to help the jews, i don't think we'll see the support we saw when we were rooting out Al Queda.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>How about this for something we can all agree on:

Both Hamas/PLO and the Sharon government need to be ousted and replaced by people who aren't terrorists for the mutual benefit of the Israeli and Palestinian people.</strong><hr></blockquote>

all pessimistic exasperation aside, this I completely agree with. It's exactly what needs to happen. Truth is, I bet most of the people being killed on either side can get along just fine with one another. It's their so-called leadership that is doing the most damage. The "leaders" breed these situations.

[quote]Because I disagree with you as to what I believe belongs to the Jews and I think belongs to the Arabs?<hr></blockquote>

No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.

3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.

Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.

3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.

Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

And with this post the well-intentioned, moderate thread degenerates like all the others.

mithras,

yer a sissy and ain't long fer this world.

toughen up,

cuss

There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good. Then we agree.

And groverat, Re your second last statements: I understand this can get emotional. I was really on the verge of losing my cool with you too. But I just think you are totally clueless. No offence. You dont have an inkling of the kind of people Israel is forced to deal with.

Israelis know and can empathize more than most with your loss as a result of 9/11. But think about what those terrorists would have done had they had a nuclear bomb. If it wasnt for Israel, thats the exactly the situation you would have been facing today.

mika.

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>

[quote]If it wasnt for Israel, thats exactly the situation you would have been facing.<hr></blockquote>

That is an absolute joke.

Israel is powered by the United States, what makes you think that Israel is capable of something the United States isn't?

The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens. If your government would pull back to your own lands then maybe our people wouldn't have to die for your cause. Apparently $3 - $5 billion per year in aid isn't enough for Sharon and his cohorts, you want American blood to pay for your imperialism as well.

Newsflash for you, mika. That area isn't all for Israel. You had no real claim to ANY of it until it was given to you by powerful Western nations.

If you think that some ancient religion entitles you to the land then I fail to see how you are any different from a Palestinian extremist who thinks Israel shouldn't be there.

You obviously don't think Arabs belong in the region so what's the difference between you and a supporter of Hamas?

--

I cannot believe that you actually think that Israel is entitled to the entire area. That just blows my mind to think that BOTH sides are so ignorant and full of hatred.

Your religious beliefs blind you to the realities of international law. There is no dealing with religious zealots like the Israelis and Palestinians, I suppose.

quote:
That is an absolute joke.

Not at all. The Reagan administration was NOT prepared to pay the price diplomatically. They even rebuked Israel publicly for this to appease the Arab world. While privately of-course it was a different story. Israel was left caring the diplomatic burden all on its own shoulders.

quote:
The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens.

Saudi Arabia is the one you want to thank. They bank roll these guys.

quote:
If you think that some ancient religion entitles you to the land

Israel was independent state. Religion has almost nothing to do with it.

quote:
Newsflash for you, mika.

Newsflash for you, groverat. Im NOT religious. Never have been. Never will be.

quote:
You obviously don't think Arabs belong in the region so what's the difference between you and a supporter of Hamas?

The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life

I dont think killing anyone is the way to go here. (Read my previous posts). What I want is complete political, social, economic, and physical separation. If it means withdrawal to the 1967 lines, Im all for it in principle. Without hate for Israel these people will wither and die.

mika.

[quote]Not at all. The Reagan administration was NOT prepared to pay the price diplomatically. They even rebuked Israel publicly for this to appease the Arab world. While privately of-course it was a different story. Israel was left caring the diplomatic burden all on its own shoulders.

[quote]Saudi Arabia is the one you want to thank. They bank roll these guys.<hr></blockquote>

They bankroll them and your nation makes them hate us.

[quote]Israel was independent state. Religion has almost nothing to do with it.<hr></blockquote>

Israel was created for the Jewish people by powerful Western nations on land once belonging to England. Part was marked off for Israel, part was marked off for Palestine. You are saying that all of it should be Israel.

[quote]Newsflash for you, groverat. Im NOT religious. Never have been. Never will be.<hr></blockquote>

That nation you are in most certainly is.

[quote]The only difference between the two groups being the cultural respect for the sanctity of human life<hr></blockquote>

More Palestinians are killed than Israelis, what does that tell you about sanctity of human life? How is Jenin an example of the IDF holding human life above all else?

[quote]I dont think killing anyone is the way to go here. (Read my previous posts). What I want is complete political, social, economic, and physical separation. If it means withdrawal to the 1967 lines, Im all for it in principle.<hr></blockquote>

Interesting, you just said something completely different above. Which is it?

[quote]Without hate for Israel these people will wither and die.<hr></blockquote>

They were around before Israel was a state and will be around for a long long time.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.

3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.

Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wow, this comment is so moronic i'm embarrassed that you're an American. The terrorist attacks on 9/11 occurred because we have troops based in Saudi Arabia to guard against Iraq. It had NOTHING to do with Israel. Good God, don't you even read a newspaper or watch the news?

So now we abandon an ally because some violent ****head Arabs kill innocent Americans? And then you feel compelled to take their side!? Are for real!? Why don't you move to Europe since you seem to have lost your spine. Was Israel supposed to sit there and watch their people get blown to bits so asswipes like you won't get upset when they retaliate? Would any country do nothing? Israel was in the middle of talking peace while the palestinians were happily killing civilians. As JJ Walker said on Politically Incorrect last night-"The Arabs are our enemies-period!" Right now they are the fomentors of unmitigated violence in this world. And don't give me any shit about Palestinians-the Arabs couldn't give 2 ****ing shits about the Palestinians. They are being used as pawns by Arab dictators and despots to take the focus of their people off themselves. Arab oil money=rich leaders, poor citizens, and uneducated fools who happen to be religious zealots and will do whatever some crazed 'mullah' tells them to.

Get your head out of your ass............................

Groverat, Im sorry you feel the way you do about Israel. And I really dont want to pick a fight with you. Unless you are another thentro - an Arab pretending to be Jewish, then pretending to Christian, than pretending to be anything at all.

I lived in Toronto Canada, for six years. Ive been to the States many times. I love America, and I love Americans. You have a great country with great people. Your country is the most admired and envied in the world. Israelis try to emulate everything American.

Its true that more Arabs than Israelis have died in this conflict, but thats because Israel has a more superior military. That doesnt tell you who initiates these confrontations. Israel gets sucked into these confrontations and the results are what they are.

As far as Jenin, what you see on television is mostly self-inflicted. They booby-trapped many of those building and tried to bring them down as the IDF was conducting house-to-house searches.

There is no inconsistency in my arguments. I think Israel should make a tactical, unilateral withdrawal. Israel should separate itself from the Arabs by all means available. Israel should withhold diplomatic relations with them all, until they recognize our rights to our land. And if after that, Israel is still harassed, I'd reassess my stand on non-violence.

mika.

[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
Whatever, Noah. Can you be a bit more specific in your arrogance<hr></blockquote>

Not without slides... All of your posts are so over the line of reason most times that I am just left wondering how you came to the conclusions you did. And as for arrogance, you may want to take a long look in the mirror there Samantha Joanne Ollendale. You are usually very haughty in your posts, and overbearing for the most part. Even you name for posting the forums speaks volumes. Why the full huge name and not something short and sweet? You may say, well it is my name and that's it, but it seems to be part and parcel with the rest of your posting. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike you, heck, I don't even know much about you outside of this board, you might be a very kind person. But here in this forum and others you can be a bit much.

[quote]Why did I lose you at the end? That last paragraph was most specific, in that I was quoting words that were uttered by President Bush, who I am sure you support, from reading your posts. Or are you saying that you support terrorism by those with whom you sympathise? Or are you so in denial that you feel that the USA is always morally uninpeachable in its actions? Or are you saying that it is impossible for Israel to commit acts of terrorism, no matter what they do?<hr></blockquote>

Any words uttered out of context can be made to stand for that which they were not intended. Someone so down on "christians" that do that with scripture should be able to see the parallel quite quickly. However, it suits your definition of terrorism and you can make it look as though Israel is the bad guy picking on poor Palestine using that quote in your chosen context. I disagree with the premise of your post at the end, that Israel is the terrorist nation for defending itself against terrorism that is so rampant that it is a DAILY event most weeks. Put it in context of what they have to deal with, day in and day out and if you still believe that they are wrong in their actions then move over there and be a suicide bomber, become a martyr and you too can have your face on a t-shirt and win the $25,000 jackpot for your family. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

(was that too far over the line? I bet it was....)

[quote]It had NOTHING to do with Israel.<hr></blockquote>

Bin Laden said quite a few times in his taped propaganda speeches that our helping Israel occupy and settle Palestinian land while killing Palestinians was definitely part of the motive.

And I keep up with the news. I'm a journalism major, after all.

[quote]So now we abandon an ally because some violent ****head Arabs kill innocent Americans?<hr></blockquote>

No, we should abandon our allies if our allies refuse to act in a peaceful manner and if they violently occupy other people's lands.

I don't have anything against Israel or Israelis inherently, but the current actions of the IDF are abhorrent.

[quote]Was Israel supposed to sit there and watch their people get blown to bits so asswipes like you won't get upset when they retaliate?<hr></blockquote>

Their violent incursions into Palestinian territory and occupation of Palestinian lands (including the demolition of Palestinion neighborhoods) haven't stopped the suicide attacks and they've been trying this for 30+ years.
They need to pull out so Palestinians no longer have a reason to blow themselves up at an Israeli discotheque.

I'll leave the rest of your racist diatribe alone.

--

PC-Killa:

[quote]Groverat, Im sorry you feel the way you do about Israel.<hr></blockquote>

Always the way, isn't it?

If something disagrees with how Israel is handling itself, they MUST be an anti-Semite.

I'm not Arab or Jewish or Christian. I'm Texan.

[quote]Its true that more Arabs than Israelis have died in this conflict, but thats because Israel has a more superior military. That doesnt tell you who initiates these confrontations. Israel gets sucked into these confrontations and the results are what they are.<hr></blockquote>

Interesting... what made the IDF go on a murderous rampage in Jenin?

Someone suicide bombs a bus in Israel and that somehow compels the IDF to flatten a Palestinian village with bulldozers?

The longer your military stays in Palestinian territory the longer these attacks on your civilians will continue. Your nation is violating international law and will not reach a peaceful state until they withdraw to their proper borders.

[quote]I think Israel should make a tactical, unilateral withdrawal.<hr></blockquote>

You said above that the Palestinians should go to Saudi Arabia for land and help and the land in that area should be left for Palestine.

You have changed your stance, but you have come around at the end.

Israel pulls out to their proper territory and compensates Palestinians for destroyed territory (pride stands in the way of this vital step just as pride causes Israel to maintain her violent aggressions).
If, after that, organizations make violent movements towards Israel those organizations should be dealt swift death by international forces.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

No, because you ignorantly think that Arabs have no value for the sanctity of human life, because you think your religious group has an inherent right to *all* the land in that area and that Arabs should really have no say in the matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Since when did Jews become a religious group? Judaism is a religion. Jew is a race. You are sounding like a racist and a bigot. Check your definitions.

[quote]<strong>3,000 of our citizens died last year because of warhawk racist ****s like Ariel Sharon and his Zionist policies completely destroy what flimsy peace process was ongoing. We have stuck behind your aggressive and violent settlement tactics for decades and now OUR people are dying for it, not just yours. WE are dying for you and Sharon is an ungrateful sack of shit who won't even listen to us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:eek: You can't possibly believe this? Do you? That happened because of many reasons, Israel was a small part, and I feel that they were only thrown into the reasons so that more Muslims would get fired up and join in the cause against America. This is Anti-semitism at it's worst...

[quote]<strong>Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago. The IDF kills more Palestinians than any Arab terrorist organizations have killed Israelis. Of course, those are just "some Arabs", right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You lost any credibility you had with me with this post. Look at the situation over there. From the safety of our homes it is easy to say, they are bad, stop that you bad people. But they are trying to stop terrorists from killing Israeli citizens on a daily basis. I cannot believe you actually posted the pure garbage you just laid out!

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Bin Laden said quite a few times in his taped propaganda speeches that our helping Israel occupy and settle Palestinian land while killing Palestinians was definitely part of the motive.

And I keep up with the news. I'm a journalism major, after all.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I covered this in my previous post to you.

And you being a journalism major, is that supposed to prove your unbiased nature? Laughable at best.

[quote]<strong>No, we should abandon our allies if our allies refuse to act in a peaceful manner and if they violently occupy other people's lands.

I don't have anything against Israel or Israelis inherently, but the current actions of the IDF are abhorrent.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's not how it looks from here. You have a major problem with Israelis.

• The only thing we have to thank Israel for is 3,000 dead citizens
• Apparently $3 - $5 billion per year in aid isn't enough for Sharon and his cohorts, you want American blood to pay for your imperialism as well.
• There is no dealing with religious zealots like the Israelis and Palestinians, I suppose.
• They bankroll them and your nation makes them hate us.
• Israel lost all claim to moral superiority a long time ago.
• There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.

Sounds like a reasonable person who is just paying fair and unbiased journalist to me...

[quote]<strong>Their violent incursions into Palestinian territory and occupation of Palestinian lands (including the demolition of Palestinion neighborhoods) haven't stopped the suicide attacks and they've been trying this for 30+ years.
They need to pull out so Palestinians no longer have a reason to blow themselves up at an Israeli discotheque.

I'll leave the rest of your racist diatribe alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No they have not stopped them, but they have slowed them down considerably. However, whey they do pull back it only increases the frequency and intensity of the attacks. But being a journalist in training this has not escaped your watchful eye.

[quote]<strong>Always the way, isn't it?

If something disagrees with how Israel is handling itself, they MUST be an anti-Semite.
I'm not Arab or Jewish or Christian. I'm Texan.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And a Journalist too. Un-impeachable credentials. Not all who disagree with how Israel handles itself is anti-semite. But when they do it by spewing what you have been spewing, it sure gives that impression.

[quote]<strong>Interesting... what made the IDF go on a murderous rampage in Jenin?

Someone suicide bombs a bus in Israel and that somehow compels the IDF to flatten a Palestinian village with bulldozers?

The longer your military stays in Palestinian territory the longer these attacks on your civilians will continue. Your nation is violating international law and will not reach a peaceful state until they withdraw to their proper borders.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Interesting. All it was is just one suicide bomb against one bus. There was no conflict before then. No suicide bombs days, or even possibly hours before on many occasions. This has not been culminating over time. How this has escaped your journalistic eagle eye I am unsure...

And now you are a judge too. I can even hear the gavel. "GUILTY! You are hereby fined and shall be confined to your country until you can abide by international law. And don't hurt those poor Palestinians anymore. After all, they have a few more Israelis to go before you guys are even..."

[quote]<strong>If, after that, organizations make violent movements towards Israel those organizations should be dealt swift death by international forces.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Like they have before? Oh wait, nobody did anything but "Tsk, tsk, tsk." Why should Israel not be allowed to defend itself? Is it incapable? Obviously not. You seem to think that they do not merit this basic national right. How can you believe this? It is ok for international forces to deal "Swift death" to these terrorists, but not Israel? Don't look now, your bias is showing again...

[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>

More Palestinians than Jews have died in this conflict, that's a fact, how does that make me racist?

How does a semantic quibble over the word "Jew" make me racist?

How does knowing that Israel is violating international laws make me racist?

I have no strong love for Palestinians. I am still angry about those ****ing bastards that celebrated in the streets after the 9/11 attacks.

---

[quote]And you being a journalism major, is that supposed to prove your unbiased nature? Laughable at best.<hr></blockquote>

Where did I say that I was unbiased? All I said with relation to my field of study was that I kept up with the news.

[quote]*my own blah blah stuff*
Sounds like a reasonable person who is just paying fair and unbiased journalist to me<hr></blockquote>

What the hell are you talking about?
Is this an article for a newspaper I'm writing? Am I not allowed to have personal opinions?

If you find me saying that kind of stuff in a publication in a non-editorial section then fine, but as it stands now I'm expressing an opinion on an internet message board, not the New York Times front page.

[quote]However, whey they do pull back it only increases the frequency and intensity of the attacks. But being a journalist in training this has not escaped your watchful eye.<hr></blockquote>

Do you remember a few years back when things weren't as bad as they are now? Remember how this latest Intifada started? Sure you do.

(*<a href="http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/16ec5d0cfab45921852569ae00502c5e!OpenDocument" target="_blank">hint</a>* - it involves Ariel Sharon, over 1,000 Israeli troops and al-Haram ash-Sharif)

Not that things were peaceful before, but they were better than they are now.

[quote]All it was is just one suicide bomb against one bus. There was no conflict before then. No suicide bombs days, or even possibly hours before on many occasions. This has not been culminating over time.<hr></blockquote>

That was merely an example.

Of course this has been going on for years. If it makes you feel better I'll say, "Palestinians blow up some busses so the IDF flattens some villages."

There, I pluralized those two words, feel better?

[quote]And now you are a judge too. I can even hear the gavel.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't been the judge, I just know the ruling.
The U.N. was the judge.

[quote]It is ok for international forces to deal "Swift death" to these terrorists, but not Israel? Don't look now, your bias is showing again...<hr></blockquote>

Israel doesn't deal swift death to these organizations. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory for over 30 years. If that fits under your definition of swift then I don't know what to tell you.

If you want an example of something that could be considered swift (compared to what Israel is doing now) look at the U.S. & Co's actions in Afghanistan. The really violent and widespread conflict didn't last more than a week or so.

Forget it Groverat, can't see it when it is pointed out to you rather bluntly.

Your integrity counts whether you are on a PC message board or writing an article in the NYT. You may regret your posts here if it is linked to you some years later and spread all over the internet to discredit your opinions and "unbiased journalistic opinions".

*Update*



Israeli forces have just pulled out of Jenin after what looks like a fairly large massacre.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1938000/1938582.stm" target="_blank">The pullout began on Thursday, as a UN envoy visiting the camp described the situation there as "horrific beyond belief".</a>

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Israel doesn't deal swift death to these organizations. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory for over 30 years. If that fits under your definition of swift then I don't know what to tell you.

If you want an example of something that could be considered swift (compared to what Israel is doing now) look at the U.S. & Co's actions in Afghanistan. The really violent and widespread conflict didn't last more than a week or so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Umm, Al Quaeda still exists and is now pulling the same thing the Palestinians are pulling. Hide out in civilian areas and attack from there. We just did what we would not let Israel do. Wiped out the head of Al Queda and the major following as well. They hid in populated areas, so some innocents got hurt. And guess what? We were labeled as terrorists by them and the international community as well in many instances. One difference, we put a new government in place and they will get to fight the 30 year feud to keep power. I will not be surprised if they start resorting to suicide bombings or attacks against us to make a point. Oh wait, WTC attacks... But that was before Afghanistan so we are truly safe now.

Bad analogy on my part, perhaps, but it wasn't meant to mirror the situation exactly (since finding a perfect analogy for the Israel/Palestine conflict isn't easy).

Also, I don't remember Israel ever fighting a proper war with Palestine, so I don't think that Israel has to fight them for "power". Wasn't this just about terrorism, or IS it really about control of the area?

I remember there being war with a bunch of other Arab nations, though, so why isn't Israel setting up shop in Egypt, Syria, etc... if it's really about keeping their wartime enemies at bay?