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Israel/Palestine: What we can agree on (now on a higher level)?!? - Page 3

post #81 of 248
Nowadays the UN is irrelevant. The day the US gets out ( and they will) they will have no real power and will shortly thereafter dissolved.
post #82 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:

<strong>Also, you completely evaded the actual point I made.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What point? You insist on pretending that the U.N. isnt anti-Israel. That just isnt true. What about that world conference on racism that the U.N. held just last year in Durban?

[quote]Originally posted by rashumon: Mmm Interesting so how would you explain the long string of terror and wars brought on Israel by the Arabs that happened before 1967 when the OT were not occupied ?

<strong>... That was 35+ years ago. And you should strike the word "terror" from that. Up until 1967 it was outright war against Israel by Arab nations.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In other words you just want to continue blaming Israel. Any evidence that gets in the way of this, youll just ignore. I dont get you. 35+ years ago? So what? The creation of Israel by the U.N. was over 50 years ago. You have no problem talking about that.

[quote]<strong>It's the only part of the problem that can be dealt with by simple actions. If you pull out of the territory you lessen the credibility of the Palestinian terrorists. Give them no reason to be angry and they will be as racist freaks that just want all Israelis dead. If you pull out and the terror stops then everyone has won.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As Israel has withdrawn the viloence has escalated.

[quote]<strong>... The continuing suicide bombings are evidence that it isn't effective, either.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How many suicide bombings were there when Israel occupied more of the West Bank?

[quote]<strong>When one method of keeping peace fails, try another.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats whats happening.

[quote]<strong>Until your government gives back 100% of the Palestinian's territory negotiations are pointless because they will not accept that, and rightfully so. Israel would not accept ~90% of its territory, Israelis would want 100%.

There needn't be negotiations. Give their land back. It's very simple.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It is very simple. When the terror stops the Palestinians get their homeland.

[quote]<strong>When you don't get your land back you fight for it, that's logical, that's the way the world works.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And when you are repeatedly attacked by someone, you fight back. Its logical. Thats the way the world works.

[quote]<strong>Zionism is racism. The belief that the Jews are entitled to the entire region for their nation is racist. Manifest Destiny was racist and so are Arabs who think that the entire region should be theirs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess I now know why the Durban conference wasnt on your radar screen. From Websters: Zionism n. [Zion + -ism.] Among the Jews, a theory, plan, or movement for colonizing their own race in Palestine, the land of Zion, or, if that is impracticable, elsewhere, either for religious or nationalizing purposes.

Wheres the part about being entitled to the whole region?
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post #83 of 248
rat:
How does one give that to Israel?

Get the Palestinians to stop killing people. Thats why israel was in the west bank........................
post #84 of 248
[quote]What point? You insist on pretending that the U.N. isnt anti-Israel. That just isnt true. What about that world conference on racism that the U.N. held just last year in Durban?<hr></blockquote>

What of <a href="http://www.un.org/WCAR/aconf189-1rev1.htm" target="_blank">it</a>?

[quote]In other words you just want to continue blaming Israel.<hr></blockquote>

I will blame Israel for what she is responsible for and Palestine for what she is responsible for.

Ask me if I think Palestine is morally justified or is innocent.

[quote]I dont get you. 35+ years ago? So what? The creation of Israel by the U.N. was over 50 years ago. You have no problem talking about that.<hr></blockquote>

Surely we can discuss 1967 but I fail to see how it works as any kind of justification for the present. If you can find an instance of me using a 30+ year-old action to further any of my arguments I'll gladly entertain it.

Times have changed since 1967, Arabs in the region have become far far far more open to the idea of Israel as a state that will last. Before they thought they could just get rid of it. Times have changed, pushing Israel into the sea is no longer the collective goal of Arabs.

[quote]As Israel has withdrawn the viloence has escalated.<hr></blockquote>

Specifics?

[quote]How many suicide bombings were there when Israel occupied more of the West Bank?<hr></blockquote>

I don't know, how many?

[quote]It is very simple. When the terror stops the Palestinians get their homeland.<hr></blockquote>

Terror *had* stopped (relatively) for a long while, yet Israel retained occupation. It's quite easy to justify this by asserting that the only reason for less terrorism is Israeli occupation. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

[quote]And when you are repeatedly attacked by someone, you fight back. Its logical. Thats the way the world works.<hr></blockquote>

Which is why we're at the impasse we're at now.

[quote]Wheres the part about being entitled to the whole region?<hr></blockquote>

Well, it's right in your own definition:
From Websters: Zionism n. [Zion + -ism.] Among the Jews, a theory, plan, or movement for colonizing their own race in Palestine, the land of Zion, or, if that is impracticable, elsewhere, either for religious or nationalizing purposes.

If that doesn't include having control over all their holy cities then I don't know what does.
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post #85 of 248
Times have changed since 1967, Arabs in the region have become far far far more open to the idea of Israel as a state that will last. Before they thought they could just get rid of it. Times have changed, pushing Israel into the sea is no longer the collective goal of Arabs.

And how do you know what the collective goal of the Arabs is? Is there a link you can show that states their collective goal? The TRUTH is that actions speak louder than words.
post #86 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

That was 35+ years ago. And you should strike the word "terror" from that. Up until 1967 it was outright war against Israel by Arab nations.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL .. whats the ****ing differance ?
both are means to an end ... the destruction of the state of Israel.
You really enjoy draging this debate down to never never land.... have fun dude ... i certianly am....

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
It's the only part of the problem that can be dealt with by simple actions. If you pull out of the territory you lessen the credibility of the Palestinian terrorists. Give them no reason to be angry and they will be as racist freaks that just want all Israelis dead. If you pull out and the terror stops then everyone has won.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough i pretty much agree with this ... doesn't that just gets your goat ?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Until your government gives back 100% of the Palestinian's territory negotiations are pointless because they will not accept that, and rightfully so. Israel would not accept ~90% of its territory, Israelis would want 100%.

There needn't be negotiations. Give their land back. It's very simple.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

ROFL ... you just keep getting better ....OK , regardless of weather i agree with this or not, this will never happen. if anything the US won't allow it to happen ... so if you want to maintain very light touch with reality forget about it !
NO government in the world would simply withdraw from an occupied land without negotiations and a replacement government willing to peacefully take power and assure the security and well being of both nations ! isn't that exacatly what the US did after occupying Japan and Germany ?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
When you don't get your land back you fight for it, that's logical, that's the way the world works.

And yes, I'm not 100% informed on this particular sequence, so I'm trying to learn the facts as I go along so I can get a clearer picture. If Arafat was bent on going after Israel forcefully because Israel wouldn't give 100% of the land back then that makes sense.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

What land back ? the one lost in 48 or the land occupied in 67 ? or perhaps all of what they call Palestine ? you see how complicated this is ? even resolution 242 doesn't specify any specific borders .. thats why humans invented negotiating.... to sort issues out..... offcourse you can always resort to violence .... we'll see who wins then !

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
No, it was the Israeli people. The same people who have had your Prime Ministers killed for being reasonable about the situation.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Saying this makes you a real pathetic demagogue you know that ! by that token you are guilty for JFK's death and for all the shit ...( plenty of it ) the US has done around the world.... Just for your information Barak was far more willing to give in to Palestinian demands then Rabin was , he was elected by a landslide of 57% of the vote to make peace. your ignorance is only matched by your disdain for the Israeli people.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Zionism is racism. The belief that the Jews are entitled to the entire region for their nation is racist. Manifest Destiny was racist and so are Arabs who think that the entire region should be theirs.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

How sad and ignorant can you be ? read the <a href="http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm" target="_blank">Israeli declaration of independance</a> and see for your self what Zionism is !
In case you're too lazy to click the link I paseted some relevant sections here
--------------------------------------------------
....ACCORDINGLY, WE, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assembly today, the day of the termination of the British mandate for Palestine, by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish and of the Resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations,.......
....

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be ready to cooperate with the organs and representatives of the United Nations in the implementation of the Resolution of the Assembly of November 29, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the Economic Union over the whole of Palestine.

We appeal to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building of its State and to admit Israel into the family of nations.

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in its bodies and institutions - provisional or permanent.

We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

--------------------------------------------------


[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Examples?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I just did , few monthes ago Hizbullah gurillas kidnaped and subsequently killed 3 Israeli soldiers on the Israeli Lebanese border, the UN's peace keeprs were there all the time and even cought the action on their survailance cameras , but didn't bother informing the Israeli army about any of this or trying to prevent it despite this being an ILEGAL unprovoked attack into Israeli soverign territory !
In the past 3 weeks Hizbullah has continuesly attacked Isreal from lebanon with rockets, morters light artilery and has tried to infiltarate several isareli border posts, as a result of this severl civilians were ingured and killed (most of them Israeli Arabs ) but the UN didn't lift a finger to stop the attacks the only thing that actually did convinvce the Syrians to preasure the Lebanese to get the Hizbullah to stop were direct Israeli threats and a firm warning from US secretary of state on his latest visit to Syria !

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
The UN security called for Israel's immediate withdrawal in 1981 with Resolution 497. Christ, you guys must move reeeeeaaallly slow.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, maybe a big part of the problem is that there was no one to negotiate with about giving the OT back. .. Remmeber that before the Oslo accords were signed in 93 the PLO did not accept the right of Israel to exist at all, it has constantly called for its destruction, it was busy carying that policy out and had refused to any negotiantion or compromise with 'the evil Zionist entity' as they called it .. there was literaly no one to end the occupation with....

[ 04-23-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #87 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Well, it's right in your own definition..</strong><hr></blockquote>

No it isn't. Colonization doesn't automatically mean control of an entire region. Where do you get that?
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post #88 of 248
An interesting read re all the lies and misrepresentation of the fighting in Jenin.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/04/22/jenin.fighter/index.html</a>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #89 of 248
Outsider:

[quote]The TRUTH is that actions speak louder than words.<hr></blockquote>

You're right, and I think the evidence lies in the fact that the major Arab nations are gearing up to attack Israel nor have they expressed any desire to attack Israel lately.

--

rashumon:

[quote]LOL .. whats the ****ing differance ?<hr></blockquote>

There's a big difference between war and terror. With war you could see them coming. With terror it's surprising. Terror is more cowardly.

[quote]Fair enough i pretty much agree with this ... doesn't that just gets your goat ? <hr></blockquote>

Nope, I like it when people agree and get along. We should sit 'round a campfire and sing songs of joy.

[quote]NO government in the world would simply withdraw from an occupied land without negotiations and a replacement government willing to peacefully take power and assure the security and well being of both nations ! isn't that exacatly what the US did after occupying Japan and Germany ?<hr></blockquote>

Interesting point you make and I must admit I downplayed the need for negotiations too much. 100% of the territory should be given back, at any rate, and I can only pray that Palestine gets a sane and stable government.

[quote]What land back ?<hr></blockquote>

Pre-1967 borders.

[quote]Just for your information Barak was far more willing to give in to Palestinian demands then Rabin was , he was elected by a landslide of 57% of the vote to make peace.<hr></blockquote>

So you're saying that he barely won, in which case it is unclear that the Israeli people want peace above anything else in this conflict. (Although I think electing Sharon at all indicates that peace in the region might be undesireable.)

I'm confused by that chain of events. Rabin assassinated, more peaceful Barak barely wins, Sharon beats him handily.

[quote]How sad and ignorant can you be ? read the Israeli declaration of independance and see for your self what Zionism is !<hr></blockquote>

Where am I to find Zionism in that?

Funny excerpt: "and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations." <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[quote]but the UN didn't lift a finger to stop the attacks<hr></blockquote>

And the U.N. doesn't lift a finger when the IDF shoots international journalists, so I don't see what you're complaining about.

If the U.N. comes in to stop the violence they should stop it on both sides.

[quote]Remmeber that before the Oslo accords were signed in 93 the PLO did not accept the right of Israel to exist at all, it has constantly called for its destruction, it was busy carying that policy out and had refused to any negotiantion or compromise with 'the evil Zionist entity' as they called it .. there was literaly no one to end the occupation with....<hr></blockquote>

Why wasn't it done after the formation of the Palestinian Authority?

---

Roger

[quote]No it isn't. Colonization doesn't automatically mean control of an entire region. Where do you get that?<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.poica.org/casestudies/israelization/" target="_blank">Read up</a>

It's also the current prime minister of Israel saying in 1998, "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."
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post #90 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Outsider:
There's a big difference between war and terror. With war you could see them coming. With terror it's surprising. Terror is more cowardly.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you really think i give a shit who's comming to kill me - uniformed soldiers or disguised terrorists ?
Also there were plenty of terrorist attacks by Arabs against Israelis before 67...

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Nope, I like it when people agree and get along. We should sit 'round a campfire and sing songs of joy.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Kumbaya ..... nanana kumbaya .....

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
at any rate, and I can only pray that Palestine gets a sane and stable government.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

belive me when I say I do too !

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
So you're saying that he barely won, in which case it is unclear that the Israeli people want peace above anything else in this conflict. (Although I think electing Sharon at all indicates that peace in the region might be undesireable.)

I'm confused by that chain of events. Rabin assassinated, more peaceful Barak barely wins, Sharon beats him handily.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh man, Oh boy ... how lame can you get ?
?
Wining the elections by 57% when the other opponent gets around 36 is a MEGA landslide ! name me one US elections where the margin was that big..... you can rumble on as much as you like but as elections go .... this is considered a LANDSLIDE... OK ?
Now that we got that out of the way...

You got th whole chronology wrong - read on:

1992 - Rabin ( Labor party) elected to PM

1993 - Oslo accord signed with Arafat

1995 - Rabin assasinated by an extreme right wing Israeli , this is probably the most traumatic event in Israel's history to date. Israeli people throughly shocked ! Peres ( Labor No 2 man)replaces Rabin as PM

1996 - Despite the Oslo accords progressing well a wave of suicide bombings strikes in the heart of Israel killing over 70 Israelis in the space of two weeks, In addition the Hizbullah Lebanese militias lauch a major offensive on Israel's northern border
despite Peres's attempts to cool things off his very leftie leaning is percived by most Israelis as too soft on the terrorists

1996 - In subsequent elections Likud's ( centere right party ) candidate Netanyahu wins by an incredibly slim margin over Peres and becomes PM.

1998 - Wye river accord signed with the PA , more land ceded by Israel. Netanyahu loosing support among the people for mooving too slowy towards peace !

1999 - Elections again this time moderate Barak ( Labor again) wins by a landslide (the greatest margin in Israeli politics till then) to become PM.

Aug 2000 - Barak and Clinton offer a final deal to Araft at Camp David, offering the PA 97% of the OT and a compromise on the issue of Jerusalem and Palestinian refugees, with the aim of settling the Arab Israeli conflict once and for all. Arafat rejects the deal and starts the Intefada (uprising) using the pretext of Sharon's ( the then head of the opposition Likud party) visit to the Temple mount as an excuse for initiating violence.

Dec 2000 - With the Intefada spiraling out of control and Barak's popularity droping He and Clinton attempt a last ditch attempt in getting Arafat to agree to a deal (at the Sharem al Shych summit in Egypt) , this time offering even more then what was offered in Camp David - Arafat rejects a deal again and instead intensifies the violence.

Feb 2001 - Sharon elected PM by Israelis who cannot forgive Barak for his mishandling of the crisis with the Palestinians.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Where am I to find Zionism in that?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you for real ??? or is it that you simply hit the auto reply button each time to spew more carp ?
Its in there in the bit I pasted there you sure you can actually read ? it says :

'ACCORDINGLY, WE, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assembly today........'

These are the heads of the Zionist Congress which is THE body that defines Zionism, in this document they are laying the basis for Israel ... every subsequent law created by Israel's parliament is subject to this document much in the same way as the American declaration of independance is for the US constitution !
Do you understand how this relates to what Zionism is ? need me to spell it out for you again ?

You are clearly choosing to ignore the facts...LOL.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
And the U.N. doesn't lift a finger when the IDF shoots international journalists, so I don't see what you're complaining about.

If the U.N. comes in to stop the violence they should stop it on both sides.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

The IDF doesn't shoot at journalists !
There is absolutly no comparison to be made here !
there are no UN peace keeping troops in the OT therefore the UN can't intervene in what either side does in the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

On the Israeli Lebanese border however there is a UN mandated force who's declared aim is to prevent violence on both sides .. a job which it's clearly failing to do ! this is my point - That the UN is useless in defending Israel's security ! ( Again I had to spell it out to you ... ) Get it ?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
_________________________________________________
quote:Remmeber that before the Oslo accords were signed in 93 the PLO did not accept the right of Israel to exist at all, it has constantly called for its destruction, it was busy carying that policy out and had refused to any negotiantion or compromise with 'the evil Zionist entity' as they called it .. there was literaly no one to end the occupation with....
__________________________________________________
<strong>
Why wasn't it done after the formation of the Palestinian Authority?

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Who says it wasn't being done ? as I ( and plenty of others ) have stated here before, Israel and the Palestinians were in the midst of the Oslo peace process when the current Intefada started.
Ever since the accords have been signed in 93 Israel has been gradualy withdrawing from the OT
..... the Palestinians had quite a lot going for them before they started going apeshit and bombing Israeli kids in discos .. they were gradually getting their state built, the economy was becoming more independant and less reliant on Israel, more and more Palestinians were being rulled by the PA and as I belive I had said in a previous post if they haden't started the uprising they would probably have had their state by now....
But now after all this violence and death its going to take a lot more to get Israelis to trust them
... And like it or not that has to happen for peace to become a possibility !
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #91 of 248
Its a shame none of you are bothering to respond to this last one .... especially re all the crap about Zionism being said on the other threads....

Andres I would have really wanted to know what you have to say about the last few posts since it was you who started this thread and you are obviously a reasonable person who knows a thing or two about Israel...
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #92 of 248
Well Anders , you have demonstrated here, that we cannot agree on anything concerning Israel/Palestine
post #93 of 248
[quote]Also there were plenty of terrorist attacks by Arabs against Israelis before 67...<hr></blockquote>

Violence against Israel started essentially from day 1 of Israel's formation. I know this.

[quote]belive me when I say I do too ! <hr></blockquote>

I know you hope for peace in the area, too.

[quote]Wining the elections by 57% when the other opponent gets around 36 is a MEGA landslide !<hr></blockquote>

I'm not the one who said it was a landslide.

[quote]You are clearly choosing to ignore the facts...LOL.<hr></blockquote>

I'm not naive enough to think that nations always act in accordance with their documents.


[quote]The IDF doesn't shoot at journalists !<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://tv.cbc.ca/witness/mediawar/mediasyn.htm" target="_blank">Untrue</a>


Laila Odeh, Correspondent for Abu Dhabi TV, being shot in leg by an Israeli soldier in Gaza with live ammunition.

"Look, it's a microphone terrorist, get her!"

[quote]Who says it wasn't being done ? as I ( and plenty of others ) have stated here before, Israel and the Palestinians were in the midst of the Oslo peace process when the current Intefada started.<hr></blockquote>

Palestinians say Sharon didn't come back to the meetings after he was elected. It's not as clear-cut as you would make it seem.

[quote]But now after all this violence and death its going to take a lot more to get Israelis to trust them.<hr></blockquote>

Israel has to stop the murders itself before anyone in the international community trusts them, either. It works both ways, Israel isn't inherenly right in this situation.
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post #94 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>There can be no reasonable discussion with people thinking they are entitled to land that isn't theirs and are willing to shed massive amounts of blood to get at it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why did these territories become "occupied" in the first place? Could have been because six arab countries decided to attack Israel simultaneously in an effort to destroy it? Israel somehow survived the attack and in that DEFENSIVE WAR THAT THEY DID NOT START they took the land. Spoils of a war they didn't want. Don't bitch now because the plan to destroy Israel backfired. Idiot.
post #95 of 248
[quote]Spoils of a war they didn't want.<hr></blockquote>

We've already been over this, for God's sake, you can't keep land you take in war. U.N. says no and Israel said they would uphold the U.N.'s charter.

And I'm the idiot?
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post #96 of 248
Thread Starter 
Besides Israel isn´t interested in making the West Bank and Gaza parts of Israel. That would mean accepting that Israel could loose its status of a jewish state in very few years. Unless of course they would use one of three tactics: Apartheid (which is what we in reality have right now), expulsion of innocent palestinians from the land they have lived on all their lifes or some sort of Endlösung.
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post #97 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

We've already been over this, for God's sake, you can't keep land you take in war. U.N. says no and Israel said they would uphold the U.N.'s charter.

And I'm the idiot? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes. Yes, you are......................................
post #98 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>Besides Israel isn´t interested in making the West Bank and Gaza parts of Israel. That would mean accepting that Israel could loose its status of a jewish state in very few years. Unless of course they would use one of three tactics: Apartheid (which is what we in reality have right now), expulsion of innocent palestinians from the land they have lived on all their lifes or some sort of Endlösung.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly.. which is what I was saying all along , its not only that Israel is afraid of changing its demographic structure its also that most Israelis really want peace ... you people don't realise this but the peace process has prompted an amazing economic boom in the 90's. on the flip side these days the economy is in deep recession due to the ongoing hostilities. also Israelis are fed up living in a constant state of war for over 50 years now they really just want to lead a normal life.
As have said before... polls show that over 80% of Israelis still see the only solution to the problem in the establishment of a Palestinian state within the borders of the pre 67 OT ... some border adjustments WILL need to be done( even the Palestinians recognise that ) but the basic solution is clear to all.

The problem is that by launching the Intefada the Palestinians have destroyed the trust which was slowly being built between the nations. many Israelis who used to sympathise with the Palestinian side (like me and most people I know) have hardened their opinions considerably since the violence started, many people really fear that if Israel backs down now ( under fire) terror will never stop and instead just continue until the whole of Israel is turned into a Palestinian state .... Arafat being the terrorist and the liar that he is definitely dosen't help .... and even though many people really want to get back to the negotiations they think Arafat has proven he will not stop his lies and terror until Israel is destroyed. these people think that only once the Palestinians get a new leadership then peace will become possible again.

I personally am not sure but I know for a fact that Palestinians MUST STOP THEIR VIOLENCE before negotiation can resume
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #99 of 248
May I amend a sentence of yours?

The problem is that by launching the Intefada the Palestinians and by Israel not giving their land back and electing a warhawk and war criminal for Prime Minister, both sides have destroyed the trust which was slowly being built between the nations.

And if the Israeli people really do want peace, I pray they oust Sharon with all due diligence.
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post #100 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>May I amend a sentence of yours?

The problem is that by launching the Intefada the Palestinians and by Israel not giving their land back and electing a warhawk and war criminal for Prime Minister, both sides have destroyed the trust which was slowly being built between the nations.

And if the Israeli people really do want peace, I pray they oust Sharon with all due diligence.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is getting tedious Israel has been giving land back .. Israel (including Sharon) did walk the extra mile and Sharon is NOT a war criminal ! he might be a hawk and a person who views Israel's security needs above the rights of the Palestinians but he is nowhere near as destructive as Arafat is . he is not a pathological liar and he's not sending Israeli children on suicide missions. for the current state of affairs ( war ) Sharon is probably one of the best man for the job ! he is one of Israel's brightest generals ( he had some amazing successes in the Yom-Kippur war on the Egyptian front ).
When the time would come and the Palestinians stop fighting any Israeli PM ( Sharon or other ) will make peace with them and give the land back as you love saying soo much

To use the words of your president- there has to be moral clarity here. Israel did not start the fighting, Israel has complied fully with all of the US's proposals for a ceasefire, Israel has not dragged this conflict for 19 months. this is a calculated attempt by the Palestinian leadership to pressure Israel and the US into greater concessions and to weaken Israel's economy till it reaches a braking point ... Only those who declared the Intefada can stop it, its got nothing to do with Sharon and all to do with Arafat's strategic calculation.

But please stop calling Sharon a war criminal, it just reflects badly on you...

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
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post #101 of 248
[quote]its got nothing to do with Sharon and all to do with Arafat's strategic calculation.<hr></blockquote>

And with both sides taking this idiotic "It's ALL THEIR FAULT!" attitude there will never be peace.
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post #102 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

And with both sides taking this idiotic "It's ALL THEIR FAULT!" attitude there will never be peace.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am not taking this position at all !
I fully take responsibility for Israel's stupid attachment to the OT and its inability to let go of the occupation for the past 30 years.
I think Israel should never have settled the OT, And I think that if it turns out to be impossible to get the palestinians back into dialog Israel should simply do a unilateral withdrawal out of the OT to secure borders, erect a wall and defend itself against whoever tries to go across that wall...
This however does not in anyway equates to the Palestinians incurable ability to never miss a chance to miss a chance, their basic detachment from reality when it comes to the historical facts, the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence. some people have suggested here that Palestinians see no hope and that's why they do the horrendous things they do ... well it sure as hell isn't getting them any closer to their target..... If anything they were far closer to the solution when they choose to use peaceful means for their struggle. the dream of a Palestinian state is as far away today as it ever was !

I guess that the point I'm trying to make is that Israelis are capable to face up to the mistakes they have done over the past 30 years, in fact many of Israel's greatest critics are israelis.
However i haven't seen a single post on this or any other forum or an article in the press from an Arab (let alone a Palestinian) accepting the mistakes they have done ... deploring the suicides, apologising for trying to exterminate us 3 times in the past 50 years etc... untill this happens how can we ever have a just peace ?
Its like the Palestinians are somehow locked in a loop of self pitty and denial.

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
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post #103 of 248
I belive your wrong.
A palestinian state is actually a hotter topic today than ever. The US has for the first time supported it. The UN has never been more resolved to do something about the situation, and the world has in many ways seen the occupation for what it is, (an occupation).
Even though the events have been dramatic. They have in many ways shown the need for a lasting solution better than the endless talks of the last decade has...

Having said that, the election of Sharon was probably the single worst thing that ever happend to the peace process...
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post #104 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>

Having said that, the election of Sharon was probably the single worst thing that ever happend to the peace process...</strong><hr></blockquote>

are you mad ? you think it was worse then the brakedown of the talks and the launching of the Intefada ?
So human lives are nothing to you ?
if the Palestinians get their land is the only imporatant thing ? even if its at the price of endless destruction on both sides ?


[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
I belive your wrong.
A palestinian state is actually a hotter topic today than ever. The US has for the first time supported it. The UN has never been more resolved to do something about the situation, and the world has in many ways seen the occupation for what it is, (an occupation).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats not true .. the most important thing is for the two sides to accept each other's right to live in peace and prosperity next tot he other, the recent violence has made it far more difficult.
From having something which was very nearly their own state in sep2000 the palestinians now have a destroyed economy, the PA is gone, the (rotten) infrastructure they had is very much destroyed and so is any sense of civility and social order. their land is again occupied by israeli troops (this time they are far more pissed off and dangerous then ever before). and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit. so what was the point of all this ? to get Norwegian like you interested ?
believe me if Israel simply contains the situation like it is now .. and we don't have more of the extreme violence we had a month ago this issue will slowly be forgotten from the international agenda and then who will remember the Palestinian's problems ? even now its only being used by Arab leaders as a tool against the US action planed in Iraq ...once thats over no one's gone care ...it's sad but true ...
Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO !
so what's the big deal about the Palestinians that's going to make this story last ?
In reality the stories of these other nations are far more brutal and sad then the Palestinian story but still they get pushed back to the sideline because no one has an interest to keep them in western minds !
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post #105 of 248
<a href="http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60" target="_blank">http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60</a>

but you lot will just say its government lies.....


BTW I just had a talk with a friend ( a paratrooper) who just came back from being called up to do reserve duty in Jenin. the guy is a leftie BTW and is not in anyway a militant Israeli.
He was saying that the lies and misinformation spread by the Media, Palestinians and the UN are unbelievable. he was saying that they were constantly risking their lives in order not to endanger civilians. He was saying that they are ordered by commanders to clean any house they go into to search for militants once they leave the premises. and that they can get court martiald for appearing to be rude to Palestinians or Journalists.
Again I just know grovrat and New will not believe my word on this becasue they can't resist demonizing Israel but this guy is totally reliable in my eyes and i totally believe his first hand testimony.
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post #106 of 248
[quote] the fact they always choose violence as the first option, and more then anything the fact that THEY destroyed the dialog that was taking place by starting the violence.<hr></blockquote>

The famous saying, "Like a pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind...



Sorry, what were you saying again?

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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post #107 of 248
Groverat, you like posting these snapshots of one little action here or there, but one thing you never do is set them in perspective.

"Little old palestinian lady, moments before being beaten senseless by israeli children" for example.

Or is it, "israeli children lash out at first palestinian moments after a bomb rocked their neighborhood wounding their parents and relatives"?

Taken out of context a picture can mean whatever the person wants it to. It proves nothing, it makes no real standing point...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #108 of 248
I think attacking an old Palestinian woman isn't justifiable unless she's done something.

Taking out your anger on another race because someone from their same race did something bad is not justified legally or morally.

[edit]

That's why a guy here in Texas is going to get the needle prick instead of a hero's welcome for shooting a Muslim after 9/11.

Aren't we supposed to be shocked and outraged when we see Palestinian kids with fake explosives wrapped around them?

"Oh, hate is such a terrible thing, I can't believe those naughty Palestinians are so hate filled!" we cry at our televisions.

But this, oh no, completely different. This is fully justified. That old woman is obviously a terrorist!

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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post #109 of 248
[quote] So human lives are nothing to you ? <hr></blockquote>
Come on, I came over to this thread in the hope to find a more serious discussion.
[quote] and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit. <hr></blockquote>
Well the deal will have to be better if peace is to be achived. The Saudi purposal is the plan on the table now, and Sharon is gonna have to do better than just blowing it off...
[quote] Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO ! <hr></blockquote>
I don't know about you, but I discuss these topics quite often. We concern ourselves with the palestinians now because the recent developments in the conflict have been so dramatic. But hopefully we'll have some threads on the other conflicts on later. I've considered starting a thread on Timor several times, but there are only so many hours I can spend on AI...
Rashumon, I would never call your friend a lier. But there are always more than one side to the story. I've seen the pictures. I've also seen the numbers tha 600 homes have been destroyed, and 200 more made unlivable in.
I've seen the Red Cross statistics that til now, they've recover 60 bodies, amog them old people and children. And the job is not nearly finished. So maybe your friend doesn't know everything.
The fact remains that against international law, journalist and helpworkers where keept out for eleven days. This can't be justified.
And Israel is losing face from events like this.
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post #110 of 248
[quote]Do we talk about the Kurdish problem in turkey, Iraq and Syria ? or about Chechniya ? or about Tibet ? NO !<hr></blockquote>

Start a thread about those. This thread is called "Israel/Palestine...".

If you don't want to talk about Israel/Palestine, don't go into threads with that subject. Simple.

And what do those pictures prove?
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post #111 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

The famous saying, "Like a pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind...



Sorry, what were you saying again?

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

This such a pathetic response to the points I was making ... so what does this picture prove ?
that some Israelis are shitheads ? did I ever dispute this ? this has nothing to do with the points I was making which were far broader, I could have easily posted some gory pic of Israeli victims .. would that do much for our debate ?

I DO accept responsibility for Israel's mistakes and barbarous actions. but I haven't seen a Palestinian or an Arab doing likewise here or anywhere else. all you ever hear from them is:

Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
Holocaust = a fairytale invented to justify Israeli massacres against Arabs.
Solution = Israel must withdraw Immediately under fire to borders Arabs will define as legal ( even the UN hasn't drawn these yet), Israel has NO right to defend itself against Arab/Palestinian attacks/terror, Israel should roll over and give in to all demands Arabs make to it or else.........and last but not least Israel should accept the right of whoever Arab claims to be the son of a guy who once knew a man who used to live in the same house with a guy who's cousin owned a goat in Palestine before 1948 .. to allow the Immediate right to come back to his (alleged) ancestral home home and claim a right to israeli sovereign land ( there are about 4 million claimants for this BTW....)

And besides of all of that, when you really press them to get the real opinions from under the surface they will say that Israel doesn't really have a right to exist at all and that what it really is, is a EVIL attempt by Europe to deal with its Jewish problem on the back of the Arabs and a tool for the Americans to control oil with.....

Where are the moderates ?
Why don't we see a single real denunciation of Palestinian violence from any Arab state ?
Why is this constantly ( in the media, in the UN, in our discussions) always about Israel this and Israel that..... where is the Arab world's meddling in this ?
Where is the UN denunciation for the PA's orchestrated campaign of terror ? Why do we still have people like New willing to defend Arafat but denounce Sharon even though Arafat's involvement in terrorism has been proven so many times ?
Can you answer this in an Intelligent way .... or will i get some more one liners and silly photos from you ?


I'm getting a little fed up with your inability to discuss the actual facts and relate to real life issues , all you constantly seem to do is spell out how dreadful Israel's occupation of the OT is (I never said it wasn't) and dismiss any real concerns I and others raise about real security problems. I know its easy for you to simply blame it all on the occupation but the truth is the reality and history of this conflict are far more complicated then how you stubbornly choose to portray it...

Let me ask you and New and whoever wants to answer this a simple question.

What would you do to insure Israel's security and well being in case of an Israeli withdrawal from the OT ? what would you propose be the steps if Palestinians continue their self destructive violence even after an Israeli withdrawal ?

BTW... Anders I still think your basic first post was really poignant and interesting and would really want to know your opinions on these issues.....
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post #112 of 248
I can see how this is emotional for everyone involved, I still think your last post is a bit over the top, and for the record: I never said any of those things you wrote above. When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw. The most difficult issue here is maybe Jerusalem, but it will have to be solved. The question of individual security for israelis cannot be held higher than the palestinians right to freedom and equality.
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post #113 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, but no US troops. I know how that sounds, but we will, as before, become the targets of the Arab terrorists if we go there, and things will just get worse.
post #114 of 248
And how are you gonna get Israel to agree to any force without a US presence? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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post #115 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong> When it comes to israeli security, I agree that this is an important issue, and I tried to adress it in the other thread by suggesting an international task-force should be put in place while the israelis withdraw. The most difficult issue here is maybe Jerusalem, but it will have to be solved. The question of individual security for israelis cannot be held higher than the palestinians right to freedom and equality.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And how exactly will this ensure Israeli security ?
International forces have proved to be totaly useles in lebanon they might simply turn into shields for the terrorists or even worse targets in the case of US troops..... this is a no go option I think....

[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>

I can see how this is emotional for everyone involved, I still think your last post is a bit over the top, and for the record: I never said any of those things you wrote above.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why was it over the top ? what's over the top about it ? and all i said about you is that you insist defending Arafat but constantly rebuke Sharon which to me seems ludicrous what did I say about you that you didn't say ?...
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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post #116 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
_____________________________________________
quote: and the most important thing to remember is that even if we do get a settlement it will never be better then something like the deal offered by the US and Barak in Dec2000 in the Sharem summit.
______________________________________________

Well the deal will have to be better if peace is to be achived. The Saudi purposal is the plan on the table now, and Sharon is gonna have to do better than just blowing it off...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Looks good....

<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156567&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156567&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0</a>

sound good... we'll see what happens...
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post #117 of 248
I think this was over the top:
[quote] Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
Holocaust = a fairytale invented to justify Israeli massacres against Arabs.
Solution = Israel must withdraw Immediately under fire to borders Arabs will define as legal ( even the UN hasn't drawn these yet), Israel has NO right to defend itself against Arab/Palestinian attacks/terror, Israel should roll over and give in to all demands Arabs make to it or else.........and last but not least Israel should accept the right of whoever Arab claims to be the son of a guy who once knew a man who used to live in the same house with a guy who's cousin owned a goat in Palestine before 1948 .. to allow the Immediate right to come back to his (alleged) ancestral home home and claim a right to israeli sovereign land ( there are about 4 million claimants for this BTW....)

And besides of all of that, when you really press them to get the real opinions from under the surface they will say that Israel doesn't really have a right to exist at all and that what it really is, is a EVIL attempt by Europe to deal with its Jewish problem on the back of the Arabs and a tool for the Americans to control oil with..... <hr></blockquote>
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post #118 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>I think this was over the top:

Zionism = Fascism and racism (bullocks !).
Israel = Evil aggressors and child murderers.
Israelis = Imperialist US backed evil ZOG conspirators against Islam and Arabs.
..........
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Really ?

Have you ever read some Islamic or Palestinian web sites ?
Have you ever seen Al-Jazira TV ?
Have you read some of what the most prominent muslim leaders of the Arab world have to say about the suicide bombings ?
A few days ago I was watching Jeremy Paxman interview Amro Musa ( the Arab league's chairman) here on BBC 2 newsnight, whatever Paxman tried to do he couldn't get Mr Musa to simply condemn suicide bombings against Israelis, every time he was asked about it he just started rambling on about the occupation like it was some mantra ...


<a href="http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=214" target="_blank">http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=214</a>

<a href="http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020328-95079327.htm" target="_blank">http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020328-95079327.htm</a>


The Palestinian National Charter
Please compare this with Israel's declaration of independance ...

<a href="http://www.ict.org.il/documents/documentdet.cfm?docid=13" target="_blank">http://www.ict.org.il/documents/documentdet.cfm?docid=13</a>

<a href="http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story419.html" target="_blank">http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story419.html</a>

Check this site out a little.. its a typical example of that Palestinian self pity and denial loop I was relating to in previous posts .... no reference to Arab errors or evil action at all only a meticulous script explaining how israel is responsible for all of the Palestinian's problems......no sober self assesments or any sign of a reasonable pragmatic path to a solution offered there...

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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post #119 of 248
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>I think this was over the top:
</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes, that is over the top. But it's also an accurate depiction of the beliefs of the side you've chosen, New.
post #120 of 248
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