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Apple says any mobile phone has reception issues when held wrong - Page 6

post #201 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamoses66 View Post

I dont get it either, are we the only people on the planet without this problem...you'd think it was everyone, but I can hold my phone the "wrong way" and see no bar drop off...maybe it depends on what cell band the phone is locked onto?

Looks that way. I know two people with a new phone and BOTH have this issues. Bothe live in two separate states. That is 100%
post #202 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by karajabola View Post

The last 3 phones I've owned (all non-apple, and all non-smart) have included specific verbage in the manual on how to hold the phone in relation to the antenna, and one even had a sticker on it essentially saying "don't touch here". Its too bad Apple is getting so much negative press about it.


Which phones were those? I am sure I could look up the manuals. I have never seen this type of verbiage before.
post #203 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

Exactly. That's why "shorting" with a 1kOms of your hand does not do anything. The capacitive impedance, on the other hand can be essential, especially at high frequencies.

Is my multi meter broken? Because when I measure the resistance across my finger I get around 4M ohms.
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post #204 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell View Post

If you are in an area with a strong signal, it won't happen.

So they must be the ones AT$T talks about getting 5 bars, ahhhhhh. What about the rest of us that live in crap AT$T coverage land?
post #205 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

The conductivity of you hand does not matter.

One can put a thin scotch tape over the bridge and effect will be the same. Obviously, it's a capacitive coupling. The bumper (or a case) just physically separates your hand from the antenna, thus decreasing the coupling.

A small separation should be enough for the iPhone antenna and a thin piece of scotch tape does seem to work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GanfYUPaXH0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland

What are you going to say when Apple does actually fix this issue?

They may be able to issue a software fix but if it's hardware, I'd say they can change production to just inset the antenna from the edge a bit further and on current models, exchange them if people have an issue.
post #206 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Can't you wage this debate without the name calling?

What are trying to say anyway? That my reaction is chicken little?

This is a huge problem no matter whether the effected percentage of consumers is 10% or 90%.

Are you not famliar with the fable?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_Is_Falling_(fable) The term quite nice compared to what I'd likely say in person to someone jumping to erroneous conclusions and running around claiming imminent doom based on anecdotal evidence or other very, very limited data.

There is no evidence to support a HUGE problem. There is proof that people have held their iPhones in a certain way and the bars dropped. There is also proof this has occurred with previous iPhones and other cellphones.

Now you have Ireland and SpotOn making it their mission in life to talk people out of buying new iPhones because have experienced an issue. They are saying it's a design flaw affecting all phones. You don't think that's an acorn falling being touted as the apocalypse?

The only HUGE problem we've seen so far and has always and will always affect every product ever made is if your device doesn't work as expected you are an unsatisfied customer. If my iPhone 4 would lose bars and drop calls from holding it in my left hand (the hand I hold it in) I would take it to Apple to get a new one. It's really that simple. To expect there will be no production issues with mass-produced CE is simply unrealistic and ignorant.

PS: Apple engineers say it's better to lose iPhone bars than to lose an iPhone in bars.
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post #207 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Which goes against the trolls claim that it's a design flaw shorting out the antennas.

MANY reports not ALL reports. Wow. Considering AT$T has such lousy service it will only get worse. Lets see take one crappy carrier, add one phone with major design issues what do you get CRAP.
post #208 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by karajabola View Post

The last 3 phones I've owned (all non-apple, and all non-smart) have included specific verbage in the manual on how to hold the phone in relation to the antenna, and one even had a sticker on it essentially saying "don't touch here". Its too bad Apple is getting so much negative press about it.

Yeah, and I suppose all those areas were where you hand naturally held the device? The iPhone 4 is flawed, the only field tests Apple did were with cases. They missed the issue.
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post #209 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

This again? Someone said they saw the video showed the bar drop from 5 to zero suggesting the problem can happen even when you got strong signal. Then someone posted the picture of his holding the phone "the wrong way" with 5 bars intact or when someone said they didn't have the problem, there's always this "that's because you got strong signal" excuse. If you have no clue about the situation then why won't wait until you have a clear idea?


Signal bars are relative. Do you think a phone with 5 bars, 1 mile from a cell tower, will have the same signal strength as a phone with 5 bars, 100 ft from a tower?

If a phone is close enough to a tower, an antenna's poor performance becomes less of an issue.

Now who's the one that doesn't have a clue?


I'm not trying to defend Steve Jobs or Apple. I'm just trying to point out why it's not happening to all phones. I do think there is a fundamental flaw with the phone.

No matter what type of media...movies, music, books, photos and web pages

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No matter what type of media...movies, music, books, photos and web pages

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post #210 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

The problem with this guys article is that he was approached by a reporter and asked about the iPhone loosing some signal bars. He launched into his whole analysis about attenuation. I buy that. If the reporter had said instead "talk to me about the iPhone going from 5 bars to no service in 20 seconds when you pick it up or touch it in a certain spot" then he would be relevant.

So if you buy his explanation, then why do think he isn't relevant? He pretty much sums up what's going on, why it's going on, and why nobody has done anything different.

Plus by the end of the article, after all he says about the design of the new iPhone and how it could affect the signal, he says he's buying one!

If you don't like the explanation, then don't buy one. If you already did and are unsatisfied, take it back and get a refund and buy what you think will get better reception.

I don't like the explanation either, but i'm not going to shoot the messenger.
post #211 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Now you have Ireland and SpotOn making it their mission in life to talk people out of buying new iPhones because have experienced an issue. They are saying it's a design flaw affecting all phones. You don't think that's an acorn falling being touted as the apocalypse?

Maybe they are just doing that so they don't have to wait in line when they go to get one.
post #212 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

Not really. Signal strength doesn't affect it. And to tell right-handed people not to hold a touch-only phone in their left hand is absurd.

Not my experience. In a strong signal strength area, no change in data download speeds no matter how I held the iPhone 4. In a weak area, I did see a difference.
post #213 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

The fact that you'd still recommended the phone to a friend is precisely why Jobs has the balls to say these kinds of things. If more decent, honest guys like you said no, it's time to take a stand, Apple would have less of leverage when it came to things like this. As for me I'm telling anyone who's buying a new phone to steer clear of the iPhone 4, until a legitimate fix is issued.

I don't like Apple's response. But it is also reasonable to advise people that reception isn't a problem if they are planning on using a case anyway. If they wouldn't be using a case, I'd advise them to choose a different phone.

As for taking a stand. Picking one's battles is always important because there are so many things that we could be upset about in life. If I were to take a consumer empowerment stand, this would be pretty far down my list of priorities. If the phone doesn't work for people, simply returning it seems sufficient.
post #214 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBillyGoatGruff View Post

Maybe they are just doing that so they don't have to wait in line when they go to get one.

Or maybe if they can stop all the blind fanbois from running out and writing Stevie blank checks he may do something about the problem. Right now Stevie has no incentive to do so because people will blindly give him money.
post #215 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post

The test needs to be redone so that the phone is not moved or rotated when held in different ways. Otherwise the test says nothing about the way it is held.

That's already been done. It's a real problem. Get over it.
post #216 of 444
Well, the antenna is a SNAFU that should never have happened.

But, moving forward...

Electrical tape in the lower left hand corner, going down to NEAR the plug and extending up well over the junction is a PARTIAL FIX.



However, take a wild guess where your microphone is? Yup, lower left hand corner of the phone, near the Apple jack - so don't cover it; or you will get a good coverage connection but your friend on the other end of the line won't hear a word you are saying.

That said; the other part of the partial fix is to cover the same section of the metal on the lower right hand portion of the phone. You see, the antennae in question is a 'U' shaped piece of metal on the bottom of the phone. If you short it, you lose bars. So, we need to isolate this 'U' antennae - the problem is this antenna has holes cut in it for a microphone and the Apple connector.

If you opt not to tape the lower right hand signal, then you will likely short it when you use the phone - to hold the phone, this antennae is positioned to be a key grasping area - despite what Stevie says.
post #217 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

...the only field tests Apple did were with cases.

How do you know that for certain?
post #218 of 444
This is not about signal "attenuation." This is about signal LOSS. I've run Speed Test three times in a row now.

1. When I place my iPhone 4 on my desk here in my office, I get 5 bars on the 3G network, and my download speed averages 2870 kbps, upload speed averages 1328 kbps.

2. When I hold the phone in my left hand in the exact same orientation, the signal drops to one bar in ~10 secs. Running Speed Test, I got 110 kbps download speed on one of the three tries, on the other two download and all of the upload tries I got zero.

I've tried the same thing on my wife's original 2G iPhone, and my old 3G iPhone. There is no significant speed difference on either of those phones when I run the same test.

So let's please stop with the "oh, all cell phones do that," and "it's a non-issue, just don't hold it that way" blather. When I hold this phone in my left hand in a way any ordinary human might do, it becomes a brick. It's no longer a useable phone.

And for the record, I'm not an Apple hater nor a troll. I bought the original 128K Mac back in February of 1984, and have been buying and using Apple products ever since.

There is a major problem with my iPhone 4, and no one can reasonably deny it.
post #219 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

Yeah but didn't you shout to high heaven for six months about no wifi on your phone?

Yes, I did. But it's jailbreak so no comeback.
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post #220 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell View Post

Signal bars are relative. Do you think a phone with 5 bars, 1 mile from a cell tower, will have the same signal strength as a phone with 5 bars, 100 ft from a tower?

I agree with you. It's just that when someone, like you, said the problem won't happen if you're in the strong area, people will come and tell you it doesn't matter because the video shows 5 bars droped to zero (look at post in the first page). Then someone posted the picture of his phone holding death grip with 5 bars intact another person will come and tell us that's because you live in the strong area. In short, nobody has a clue. I'm sorry for using "you", I should use "everybody" instead.
post #221 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellacool View Post

Right now Stevie has no incentive to do so because people will blindly give him money.

Sure he does ... it's called "Class Action lawsuit". If you continue to sell a product, after being made aware of a design defect - you are committing fraud. In fact, each and every phone Apple sells further increases the damages that will be accessed.

Thus, it is in Apple's best interests to fix this problem post haste.
post #222 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

In a nutshell, the FCC doesn't test the phones by actually holding them up to someone's head and making calls, they test the phone flat with nothing touching it. Now this doesn't let Apple off the hook for the design, but it does explain why its easy to block the antenna, and why is it there in the first place. Take a look.

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...-antennas.html

Gruber pushing his agenda.
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post #223 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

Sure he does ... it's called "Class Action lawsuit". If you continue to sell a product, after being made aware of a design defect - you are committing fraud. In fact, each and every phone Apple sells further increases the damages that will be accessed.

Thus, it is in Apple's best interests to fix this problem post haste.

That would be a funny. Apple is starting to feel the pain of being a large company, hard to hide in the shadows when you have grown this big this fast.
post #224 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell View Post

Signal bars are relative. Do you think a phone with 5 bars, 1 mile from a cell tower, will have the same signal strength as a phone with 5 bars, 100 ft from a tower?

If a phone is close enough to a tower, an antenna's poor performance becomes less of an issue.

Now who's the one that doesn't have a clue?


I'm not trying to defend Steve Jobs or Apple. I'm just trying to point out why it's not happening to all phones. I do think there is a fundamental flaw with the phone.

I think the issue is made worse due to the signal being GSM and 3G. I've had issues in the past with GSM, back all the way since AT&T left TDMA and went GSM. It didn't matter what phone I had: Sony Ericcson, Nokia, Palm (ugh), and Motorola. They all had issues with signal loss. Worse than TDMA.
The only place where my phone worked beautifully was in Seattle, and that's because the original AT&T headquarters was there.

I still have the original iPhone and it's ok as far as signal goes, but compared to my girlfriends 3G, mine is better in receiving calls unless she drops the 3G and goes 2G. My brother who uses a BB, also has issues with 3G. His phone sounds like he's underwater, and replacing it hasn't done much to the call quality.

Now Apple has done some further changes to the new iPhone in the way it connects to the network, according to what they told Walt Mossberg. I think that this new way, coupled with the antenna design, and AT&T being what it is, makes this issue amplified. The other thing to consider is how long was this phone being tested and where. Where, being more important.

It's going to be a challenge to fix this issue, but it still won't make me go Android or BB.
post #225 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamoses66 View Post

I dont get it either, are we the only people on the planet without this problem...you'd think it was everyone, but I can hold my phone the "wrong way" and see no bar drop off...

Ditto, no change for me regardless of how I hold the phone. I have four bars to start with, but others posting here say they see a drop "from five to zero" bars.

I'm also failing to see how this is a conspiracy against left-handed people. Whether I hold the phone in my right or left hand, my fingers end up wrapping around and "connecting" all three parts of the outer case anyway. This would make more sense if the claim is that the hand blocks the antenna signal, because in that case I have more "meat" on the left side than on the right side. But I don't see how this can be a conductivity problem. Not on my phone, anyway. I watched a YouTube video where the guy was really gripping it tight, cupping his palm all the way around the left side, so I could imagine that's a blocking rather than a conductivity problem.

Anyway, does this phone use the headphone cable as an extension of the antenna as other phones do? I wonder if anyone who sees the problem on their phone has tried with headphones attached?
post #226 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Are you not famliar with the fable?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_Is_Falling_(fable) The term quite nice compared to what I'd likely say in person to someone jumping to erroneous conclusions and running around claiming imminent doom based on anecdotal evidence or other very, very limited data.

There is no evidence to support a HUGE problem. There is proof that people have held their iPhones in a certain way and the bars dropped. There is also proof this has occurred with previous iPhones and other cellphones.

Now you have Ireland and SpotOn making it their mission in life to talk people out of buying new iPhones because have experienced an issue. They are saying it's a design flaw affecting all phones. You don't think that's an acorn falling being touted as the apocalypse?

The only HUGE problem we've seen so far and has always and will always affect every product ever made is if your device doesn't work as expected you are an unsatisfied customer. If my iPhone 4 would lose bars and drop calls from holding it in my left hand (the hand I hold it in) I would take it to Apple to get a new one. It's really that simple. To expect there will be no production issues with mass-produced CE is simply unrealistic and ignorant.

PS: Apple engineers say it's better to lose iPhone bars than to lose an iPhone in bars.

You seem to be lumping all of your opponents into a single category. Sure, some people who disagree with you are doing so in an ill-informed or trollish manner. But that doesn't mean that you can write everyone off with a single brush stroke. In fact, you've rudely and incorrectly characterized my point, and then proceeded to rail against that incorrect characterization.

With no empirical data to consider, all any of have to go on are the anecdotes we've personally observed or seen on the internet. Certainly, there is always a tendency for problems to be over-represented in the news and on forums. So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
post #227 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward View Post

How do you know that for certain?

Does it matter. No.
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post #228 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward View Post

How do you know that for certain?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees these absolute statements based on limited information as absurd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorks View Post

There is a major problem with my iPhone 4, and no one can reasonably deny it.

Now that is a reasonable post. Personally, I would return it for another device.
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post #229 of 444
Err, what? Gruber? He isn't even mentioned in that article. This guy is an engineer named Spencer Webb, who was asked by PC magazine about the issue.

Nice try. Try reading first before shooting your mouth off, Ireland.
post #230 of 444
I just got my hands on one a few minutes ago. Girl in the office pre ordered one. I tested the antenna issue and here is my experience.

If I hold it normally with the left palm touching the area of concern it dropped from 5 bars to 4 after about 10-15 seconds. I was holding it gently not pressing hard into my palm. However if I pressed my thumb quite firmly across the seam it would drop the bars down to 2. I found that with normal use where you touch the sensitive location somewhat off and on during a call you should be ok, but if you are applying a lot of pressure as to make full skin contact for a sustained length of time you may affect the reception.

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post #231 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

With no empirical data to consider, all any of have to go on are the anecdotes we've personally observed or seen on the internet. Certainly, there is always a tendency for problems to be over-represented in the news and on forums. So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?

If Steve said it then he couldn't deny it. Steve isn't saying it, 'cause he knows there's an army there for him.
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post #232 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

This is turning into a very ugly product introduction and it really exposes a fundamental flaw at Apple concerning real-world testing... they simply don't know how to do it!

I think they know HOW to do it, but I think they don't do enough real-world testing because they have become so ridiculously paranoid about new models being leaked.

A phone that sells 600,000 in its first day and presumably 10,000,000 in a year should probably have been tested by at least 1000 people. I'd bet Apple didn't test the phone with 100 people.

I love Apple but their arrogance is going to turn the perception of Apple from something unique into "just another typical cruddy manufacturer" in the long term.

As for this particular problem, assuming it's real, if Apple had been aware of the problem, it seems to me it could have been easily solved by placing the breaks in the antenna either at the very top or the very bottom of the phone. But they probably weren't aware of the problem because they didn't do enough testing.

And, I'm right handed, but I hold the phone in my left hand because I type with my right, except when I'm on a call, when I hold the phone in my right hand. I don't know if this is typical for right-handed people or not. From the videos I've seen, I'm not sure why the hand you hold the phone in should make any difference. Isn't the antenna break on both sides of the phone in the same location? So whether you hold it left- or right-handed, isn't it likely for the edge of one's palm to cover that spot?
post #233 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

So if you buy his explanation, then why do think he isn't relevant?

I do buy his explanation about internal antenna placement and attenuation when occluded. He alludes that every phone suffers what the iPhone 4 does which is false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

He pretty much sums up what's going on, why it's going on, and why nobody has done anything different.

Except that halfway through his article he starts to change his tune, he even says that it was a design decision by Apple and could not be fixed, which is a nice way of saying it has a design flaw. Yes it is a design flaw because they chose a thinner enclose that forbade an internal (non touchable) antenna.

So after equating other phones that lose a few bars when their antennas are occluded to the iPhone which goes out of service if simply touched in the wrong spot he goes on to link to a youtube video. This video shows an iPhone losing service by placing the iPhone 4 on it's side and laying a key across the antenna gap. That is plain bs, where is a SINGLE video of ANY OTHER PHONE completely going from full strength to no signal by laying a key on it. All it takes is one, just one and then he can say that all phones are affected this way.

So yes I do buy his explanation of antenna attenuation by hand occlusion in all phones, but I flatly refuse to believe that all phone are affected the way the iPhone 4 is by holding it, touching it or laying a key on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

Plus by the end of the article, after all he says about the design of the new iPhone and how it could affect the signal, he says he's buying one!

Yeah that made me wonder about his motivations in the whole thing. First he tries to muddy the water by saying all phones do that, then he claims he is going to buy one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

If you don't like the explanation, then don't buy one. If you already did and are unsatisfied, take it back and get a refund and buy what you think will get better reception.

I don't like the explanation either, but i'm not going to shoot the messenger.

I did pre-order my iPhone 4, received it Wednesday, returned it to the Apple Store in Greensboro, NC this morning just waiting now on AT&T to cancel my contract upgrade. If I didn't have hundreds invested in iOS software then I would switch to a different platform.
post #234 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

I just got my hands on one a few minutes ago. Girl in the office pre ordered one. I tested the antenna issue and here is my experience.

If I hold it normally with the left palm touching the area of concern it dropped from 5 bars to 4 after about 10-15 seconds. I was holding it gently not pressing hard into my palm. However if I pressed my thumb quite firmly across the seam it would drop the bars down to 2. I found that with normal use where you touch the sensitive location somewhat off and on during a call you should be ok, but if you are applying a lot of pressure as to make full skin contact for a sustained length of time you may affect the reception.

Does it affect the call, have you tried calling her phone from a land line while performing those tests? Is it possible that you can have her test the phone calls while doing that? This way, it can confirm whether or not doing so will make you loose calls or have the quality drop.
post #235 of 444
This antenna thing is an Apple Basher trick. My IPhone 4 works great. If you have sweaty hands, and are out on the edge of a Wi-Fi network range, it might make a difference. I have tried and it just doesn't happen. AT&T dropped down to Edge coverage briefly yesterday, due to the system overload they experinced. It came back to 5 Bars of 3G by late afternoon. This is a non-issue, and should not be blown up into a genuine problem. It Isn"t1
post #236 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?

I don't think you can until there is some formal report stating it as such. We can theorize that it's significant to all devices sold and hypothesize as to what the cause is and what the resolution will be, but to we cannot reasonably claim that it's a "design flaw" that affects everyone while standing on an anti-Apple soapbox without looking like crazy people on the street spouting Revelations and prophesying the end of the world.
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post #237 of 444
Question: has anyone tried a Belkin or Griffin Technology iPhone protective case and see it THAT cures the problem? If it does, that tells me there's a physical problem with the iPhone 4 itself--too much sensitivity to the electrical charge from a human body transmitted through the skin of your hand. I'm surprised Apple didn't catch this issue during final testing.
post #238 of 444
you know what else happens when you hold the iPhone 4 the wrong way.. you can't see the screen. what a huge mistake.
post #239 of 444
Ok, just got off the phone with Steve Jobs, it is not a design flaw at all, it is actually the key combination to turn your iPhone 4 into an iPod Touch 4. So you see you are getting TWO devices for the price of one, and you are getting a yet released device on top of it. I am so happy Steve does so much for us. All you fanbois can get back inline, Apple will take care of you.
post #240 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

Does it affect the call, have you tried calling her phone from a land line while performing those tests? Is it possible that you can have her test the phone calls while doing that? This way, it can confirm whether or not doing so will make you loose calls or have the quality drop.


I called my iPhone while holding it gently but I can't say that I evaluated the sound quality. It did not drop but then again we had at probably 4 bars on hers and 4-5 on my 3Gs.

I think my conclusion is that I am no longer concerned and will eventually buy one, but my contract is not up until next year.

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