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Death Grip hysteria may end Monday with iOS 4.01 - Page 10

post #361 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Was the finger wet? Did he lick it first? Was it hot in the room, causing him to sweat?

Does it fucking matter? He put his finger on the side of the phone and we could no longer hear his voice. That's a fucked up phone.
Citing unnamed sources with limited but direct knowledge of the rumoured device - Comedy Insider (Feb 2014)
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post #362 of 604
Interesting. People are reporting that if you disable the 3G radio, the signal strength issues disappear regardless of what you do with your hands on the phone.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/.../t-948900.html
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post #363 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Does it fucking matter? He put his finger on the side of the phone and we could no longer hear his voice. That's a fucked up phone.

And how do we know he's not an android fan faking the results? It's youtube, not a reputable source. I believe that's the point Chillin is trying to make.

Engadget is reporting a single finger doesn't interfere in any significant way. Who's to be believed?
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post #364 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Skin touching is a separate issue, as he did say. Engadget even mentioned that. You're talking about attenuation of reception, like Steve said. They are two separate issues.

The videos shown it being reproduced on older iPhones, and i can do it on mine, require abnormal crowding of the phone. You can bring the iPhone 4 to it's knees with the touch of one finger on the side of the phone. Which just so happens to be where the phone is naturally held.

Now do you get it?

Ah, yes, I thank you, I see it now. The iPhone 4 is not defective. It merely has inferior reception. Well, I see now why everyone is pissed off at Apple.

No, I really don't see. I see them as precisely the same issue, with a slight difference of measure. Touching with the skin causes the attenuation issue, I know. But it's the same attenuation issue that is created when you are crowding the phone. The iPhone 4 isn't doing anything new in this regard. It's the same, with a difference of degree, that can be demonstrated on all cell phones, even if you can't actually touch the antenna.
post #365 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Interesting. People are reporting that if you disable the 3G radio, the signal strength issues disappear regardless of what you do with your hands on the phone.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/.../t-948900.html

But what if you want to use the Nation's Fastest 3G Network?



Actually, this phone is really good at that with this extra feature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIXDW...layer_embedded
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post #366 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Does it fucking matter? He put his finger on the side of the phone and we could no longer hear his voice. That's a fucked up phone.

And how do we know he's not an android fan faking the results? It's youtube, not a reputable source. I believe that's the point Chillin is trying to make.

Engadget is reporting a single finger bridging the gap doesn't interfere in any significant way. Who's to be believed?
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post #367 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillin View Post

Touching with the skin causes the attenuation issue, I know. But it's the same attenuation issue that is created when you are crowding the phone. The iPhone 4 isn't doing anything new in this regard. It's the same, with a difference of degree, that can be demonstrated on all cell phones, even if you can't actually touch the antenna.

Touching a tiny sliver of the phone with a single finger is not "crowding the phone".
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post #368 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

The control was in the hand placement which stayed constant throughout the entire experiment, which showed intact voice quality. The variable was the extra finger moving down the side until it came into contact with the insulator portion. The observation was that once the finger progressed to the insulator portion, the reception/transmission was cut.

That's an experiment.

nice try. But that isn't a control. Are you testing the phone, or your hand? With a single phone you can not do any science that says anything about any other individual phone. With one phone you are isolated and can only make statements about that one single phone.
post #369 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Touching a tiny sliver of the phone with a single finger is not "crowding the phone".

right... it's touching with the skin... causing the attenuation issue. Think you can avoid touching that spot with your single finger when you're making calls in areas of weak cell reception? I'm not usually a betting man... but I bet you can.
post #370 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillin View Post

nice try. But that isn't a control. Are you testing the phone, or your hand?

Anyone with a high school education should know that is a proper control in this experiment.
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post #371 of 604
Another interesting story. It claims that iOS4 changed the antenna priority behavior from the 'Strongest Possible Signal' to the 'Most Reliable Signal'.

http://www.electronista.com/articles...rly.next.week/

A software origin for the hand position bug, nicknamed the "death grip" for its tendency to kill the cellular signal if the antennas are bridged, would explain how some have replicated the problem on the iPhone 3G and the 3GS. As iOS 4 changed the antenna's priority from the strongest possible signal to the most reliable, it may have changed that behavior for all phones, not just the iPhone 4.

Owners of the 3G MicroCell also support this through their lack of trouble; since the femtocell is always the most powerful cellular signal when nearby, iPhones always stay connected. The same behavior may likewise explain why some without MicroCells haven't had success replicating the problem, as any attenuation of the signal might not be enough to confuse the phone if the user is close to a good cell site.

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post #372 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Anyone with a high school education should know that is a proper control in this experiment.

The experiment, and I use the word loosely, won't tell you much. No matter how rigorously you test with one phone, you still have one phone, and can say nothing about any other phone. The experiment is a sham. It tells us nothing useful.
post #373 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Interesting. People are reporting that if you disable the 3G radio, the signal strength issues disappear regardless of what you do with your hands on the phone.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/.../t-948900.html

I haven't read the link yet but I switched off 3G (I'm not actually in a 3G area) and went from 3 bars, with internet, to "no service" in about 5 seconds. I then put the phone down on my desk, just 2 or 3 inches from where I had just held it, and signal returned fully in 5-10 seconds. I then repeated it and exactly the same happened.
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post #374 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Engadget is reporting a single finger doesn't interfere in any significant way. Who's to be believed?

A single finger on mine, that definitely has death grip, makes no discernible difference whatsoever.
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post #375 of 604
Well for what its worth G4 TV the gaming/tech/geek cable TV station did a review which aired yesterday which included the mention of the bad reception holding the phone the wrong way. The reviewers said that they had absolutely NO PROBLEM with the phones reception unless the tried for a half hour to try and replicate the results.

I am not saying the phone might have reception problems when holding the phone in a certain way for some people, what I am saying is that this whole orchestration by the android bots has blown this WAY out of Proportion. Way out of Proportion. Not just that but I would say that Gizmodo's report fueled an android geek-a-thon to alarming proportions.

I am not saying Mr. Jobs should have choose his words more carefully because he should.

I am just saying that rumors spread faster then wildfire on the internet especially if there are certain agendas behind the words of the spoken.

Thank you very much.

Good night.
post #376 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

A single finger on mine, that definitely has death grip, makes no discernible difference whatsoever.

Mine drops 1-2 bars without the cover on and the lower left corner covered with my palm. I haven't experienced anything drastic as of yet. I'm going to sit pat and see what happens. With the cover on I actually get a stronger signal on my iPhone 4 than my 3G or 3GS phones. With it off, it varies to a bar less to a bar more, depending on where I hold it.
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post #377 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Mine drops 1-2 bars without the cover on and the lower left corner covered with my palm. I haven't experienced anything drastic as of yet. I'm going to sit pat and see what happens. With the cover on I actually get a stronger signal on my iPhone 4 than my 3G or 3GS phones. With it off, it varies to a bar less to a bar more, depending on where I hold it.

I have a friend who's got an iPhone either 3G or 3GS and is on the same, Vodafone, network as me. I will do some comparing and I'm guessing that the iPhone 4 will have stronger signal given just how strong out here in the sticks the signal has been when I'm not touching the lower left of it and also reports I've read about that like you are getting better or much better reception.
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post #378 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I have a friend who's got an iPhone either 3G or 3GS and is on the same, Vodafone, network as me. I will do some comparing and I'm guessing that the iPhone 4 will have stronger signal given just how strong out here in the sticks the signal has been when I'm not touching the lower left of it and also reports I've read about that like you are getting better or much better reception.

Well here's hoping the rumore antenna priority switch in iOS4 are true. It would explain a lot. I'm of two minds if they should just change it back to the iOS3.x method or find some happy medium between the two. The call quality I'm getting is actually better on the iPhone 4 than it is on my 3GS. Could be due to the additional Mic, the external antennas (with cover), or some other variable. Too many hardware changes from 3GS to 4.
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post #379 of 604
I upgraded from a 3GS to a 4 and couldn't be more pleased. Two hours of Pandora on my 3GS would drain my battery and I would lose the signal numerous times. I have spent about four hours on Pandora today with zero dropped signal and my battery is still at 70%. Mixed in with Pandora I have also downloaded from iTunes and made several phone calls. It's been flawless. I have death gripped the two bottom corners and can't get the reduced band effect. I eve drove to an area where I usually can't get a signal and while the bars are very low, the phone worked perfectly. I don't work for Apple and am noy denying other people's issues but my experience has been terrific. It's a great phone and a huge improvement.
post #380 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

As an addendum to the original post, you don't need to be under a tower to know you have full strength on the phone. That's what 5 bars means on an iPhone 4, unless you are claiming that Apple falsely represents signal strength in its software.

From the iPhone manual, "The more bars, the stronger the signal."

It does not say that five bars is "full strength". It could be that five bars is enough for good reception but not necessarily "full". I can get five bars at home with weak RF and five solid bars on the freeway with perfect reception. Signal strength of a digital signal affects the carrier-to-noise ratio. As long as the ratio is above the minimum, it will work fine. If it goes below the minimum, you will drop the call. It also affects data. The weaker the signal, the lower the CNR and the less data you can push.

Where did you read that five bars means "full strength"?
post #381 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park Seward View Post

From the iPhone manual, "The more bars, the stronger the signal."

It does not say that five bars is "full strength". It could be that five bars is enough for good reception but not necessarily "full". I can get five bars at home with weak RF and five solid bars on the freeway with perfect reception. Signal strength of a digital signal affects the carrier-to-noise ratio. As long as the ratio is above the minimum, it will work fine. If it goes below the minimum, you will drop the call. It also affects data. The weaker the signal, the lower the CNR and the less data you can push.

Where did you read that five bars means "full strength"?

Sorry about that. 6 bars means full strength, but 5 bars means only 90% full strength.



OF COURSE FIVE BARS MEANS FULL STRENGTH. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE??
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post #382 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Wow! You really want to go on record with that asinine comment? Okay then, g3pro states that any phone representing their max bars has a direct correlation with maximum decibel strength that can possibly be represented and anything less the 100% percentile, even if just 99% or 95%, will result in the bars dropping.

Really, it's kinder for me to think you people have an agenda with your lack of critical thinking and inability to think objectively, but it's posts like yours that makes realize there are a lot of not so bright people around, and that makes me sad.

If you can show me a standard iPhone which displays more than 5 bars, I will give you $20.

This is not difficult to understand. When a phone has 5/5 bars, it means that it has the greatest signal strength relative to 1 bar. Relative to 2 bars. Relative to 3 bars. Relative to 4 bars.

Again, this is not difficult to understand.

5 bars is better than 4 bars, 3 bars, 2 bars, or 1 bar, or zero bars.



Unless you are seriously saying that 4 bars is better than 5 bars? Or there is a 6 bars that is possible?
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post #383 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

If you can show me a standard iPhone which displays more than 5 bars, I will give you $20.

This is not difficult to understand. When a phone has 5/5 bars, it means that it has the greatest signal strength relative to 1 bar. Relative to 2 bars. Relative to 3 bars. Relative to 4 bars.

Again, this is not difficult to understand.

5 bars is better than 4 bars, 3 bars, 2 bars, or 1 bar, or zero bars.



Unless you are seriously saying that 4 bars is better than 5 bars? Or there is a 6 bars that is possible?

I'll try one last time:

It's not possible to have more than 5 bars on an iPhone. By definition, that means 5 bars is full strength. 4 bars would be less than full strength.
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post #384 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

If you can show me a standard iPhone which displays more than 5 bars, I will give you $20.

This is not difficult to understand. When a phone has 5/5 bars, it means that it has the greatest signal strength relative to 1 bar. Relative to 2 bars. Relative to 3 bars. Relative to 4 bars.

Again, this is not difficult to understand.

5 bars is better than 4 bars, 3 bars, 2 bars, or 1 bar, or zero bars.

Unless you are seriously saying that 4 bars is better than 5 bars? Or there is a 6 bars that is possible?

Either you still don't understand the difference between full strength and full bars or you are you backpedaling, yet again. Have a little self respect and admit that you didn't understand Park Seward's comment then move on. It's not that hard.


edit: Now he's responding to himself. WTF is wrong with people?!
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post #385 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

No, science today is "I saw it on the internet so it must be true." You're so last century.

post #386 of 604
Meanwhile... after hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of replies, bantering back and forth on the various blogs,news sites, rumor sites... the media has moved on.

Get your damn phone replaced if you think it's a dud... you and the 500 or so other people.

Move along nothing to see here.
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post #387 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

...Really, it's kinder for me to think you people have an agenda with your lack of critical thinking and inability to think objectively, but it's posts like yours that makes realize there are a lot of not so bright people around, and that makes me sad.

Don't be sad, this is AppleInsider forums. Keep expectations real low.
post #388 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

I'll try one last time:
It's not possible to have more than 5 bars on an iPhone. By definition, that means 5 bars is full strength. 4 bars would be less than full strength.

I was going to type out a reply, but, no offense, I'm giving up. Bottom line is yes, the iPhone will only SHOW you 5 bars, but "full strength" is not something you can measure very easily, it's not like say pixel sizes.
post #389 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Don't be sad, this is AppleInsider forums. Keep expectations real low.

Thanks for the best advice I've read so far.
post #390 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

I'll try one last time:

It's not possible to have more than 5 bars on an iPhone. By definition, that means 5 bars is full strength. 4 bars would be less than full strength.

3gpro, you are misunderstanding the meaning (or lack of meaning) represented by the bars on a cell phone. Cell phone technology (or specifically) GSM, is a multi-path technology, meaning it will receive various signals at different sources (towers), refracted off of surfaces, and generally being bombarded from all directions with a cell signal. The strongest signal, may not be the most usable one, but the bars will only reflect the strongest signal being received, even though your phone may not be using that specific signal.

Just because you are showing 5 bars does not mean you are using a full strength signal (strength being relative). It doesn't take into account the signal to noise ratio, mean you could have an very powerful signal, that was far too noisy to be useful.

Think if it as piping a 500 watt sound out of a 5 watt capable speaker, or piping a 5 watt sound out of a 500 watt capable speaker. Signal to noise. The 5 watt sound would sound perfectly clear, and the 500 watt sound would sound like crap. Bad analogy, but you get the idea.

Signal Strength just doesn't mean a whole lot for a cell phone. It's the quality of the signal that's important.
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post #391 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

There is obviously more going on here than just the external physical location of the antennas. The phones don't look physically different, yet some iPhone 4's exhibit symptoms and some do not (including 3G and 3GS), which don't have external antennas..

Everyone keeps missing one simple fact. I've reported it several times, but no one is apparently paying attention:

1. The normal degradation of signal when a hand is placed near or over the antenna. Every phone has this and it is controlled by the laws of physics. Apple can not change it. Even the Droid manual mentions it. This is the issue that Jobs suggested that people might hold their phones differently if it bothers them. Since Apple can't override the laws of physics, I don't know what else they could do. I suppose they could increase the signal power by an order of magnitude, but the FCC won't let them - and all the whiners would be complaining that Apple was frying peoples' brains.

2. The abnormal degradation of signal if you touch the antennas at the spacer. As someone else pointed out, this is apparently due to a capacitance issue (like the lamps that turn on or off when you touch the base). Mossberg reported this in his review and the response from Apple was that it was a software problem and they would be fixing it. (There is a rumor of an iOS 4.0.1 coming out this week). This problem appears to be related to the quality of the signal - look at the tests in SF-some locations showed the problem and others didn't. I'm guessing that you can thank your friends at Gizmodo for reducing the number of iPhones in field testing.

Now, if the software fix solves problem #2, then there's no issue. If the software fix doesn't solve problem #2, then Apple will have to do something else. Apple has consistently fixed customer problems throughout its history and there's no reason to think that they won't solve it this time.

For the record, I have an iPhone 4. Problem #1 is no better or worse than the 3G I used to have. Problem #2 exists, but I was able to patch it by putting a small piece of electrical tape over the joint and have ordered a case from Belkin which is a little less gaudy than the bumpers. I'm not suggesting that this will work for everyone, nor is it an acceptable solution, but if the software patch fixes the problem as well as the electrical tape, then this is a fantastic phone.
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post #392 of 604
If you search for "iPhone 4" in Google News search the first article I get is from the Daily Mail in the UK.

It leads to a dead link but the preview in Google says this...

Apple iPhone 4 may be recalled, says Steve Jobs
Daily Mail - 4 hours ago
The much-vaunted new iPhone 4 may be recalled, Apple boss Steve Jobs revealed last night. Posting a message on the social networking site ...
post #393 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brawnr View Post

If you search for "iPhone 4" in Google News search the first article I get is from the Daily Mail in the UK.

It leads to a dead link but the preview in Google says this...

Apple iPhone 4 may be recalled, says Steve Jobs
Daily Mail - 4 hours ago
The much-vaunted new iPhone 4 may be recalled, Apple boss Steve Jobs revealed last night. Posting a message on the social networking site ...

"Phony iPhone 4 antenna controversy spreads to phony Steve Jobs Twitter" -- http://www.beatweek.com/news/6645-ph...-jobs-twitter/
post #394 of 604
This is the only cross-posting I'm going to do, I promise.

You guys and gals should really watch these videos... I'm Walt Mossberg, and you should watch me.... and... SHUT UP!

http://www.youtube.com/user/mrhogg#p/a/u/1/k6IHZBXmixY



post #395 of 604
I can replicate the issue every time with my phone in a strong 3G reception area. If I hold the phone in my left hand with the pad of my palm below my thumb on the bridge area, my signal slowly goes from five bars to none, then "Searching ..." and then "No Signal." I sincerely hope this is primarily a software issue, although it's hard for me to believe. If not, I may avail my self of the 30-day return policy and either try another phone or wait for iPhone 4a or 5.
post #396 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Either you still don't understand the difference between full strength and full bars or you are you backpedaling, yet again. Have a little self respect and admit that you didn't understand Park Seward's comment then move on. It's not that hard.

Did you miss what the iPhone manual says? The more bars, the stronger the signal.

The iPhone actually shows this perfectly well with the progressive downgrade of bars represented. When the finger touches the antenna insulator, the phone will go from 5 bars to 3 bars to 1 bar to no bars over a period of time.

The iOS is AVERAGING the signal strength, meaning that it takes into account interference and periodic strength degradation and represents the cumulative value in the number of bars.

It's why the bars don't go from 5 to 0 in one or two seconds but rather takes time.
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post #397 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

3gpro, you are misunderstanding the meaning (or lack of meaning) represented by the bars on a cell phone. Cell phone technology (or specifically) GSM, is a multi-path technology, meaning it will receive various signals at different sources (towers), refracted off of surfaces, and generally being bombarded from all directions with a cell signal. The strongest signal, may not be the most usable one, but the bars will only reflect the strongest signal being received, even though your phone may not be using that specific signal.

Just because you are showing 5 bars does not mean you are using a full strength signal (strength being relative). It doesn't take into account the signal to noise ratio, mean you could have an very powerful signal, that was far too noisy to be useful.

Think if it as piping a 500 watt sound out of a 5 watt capable speaker, or piping a 5 watt sound out of a 500 watt capable speaker. Signal to noise. The 5 watt sound would sound perfectly clear, and the 500 watt sound would sound like crap. Bad analogy, but you get the idea.

Signal Strength just doesn't mean a whole lot for a cell phone. It's the quality of the signal that's important.

Actually, the phone takes into account signal quality and interference with an averaging algorithm when it comes to displaying the signal strength as bars.

If you have a consistent 5 bar reception, the phone is telling you that you have better reception than 4 or 3 or 2 or 1 or no bars. ON AVERAGE.


There are variations, of course, and the larger variations in signal strength and quality you have, the lower bars you will have.

For example, if you are in an area with high noise to signal ratio, there are times when you will have good signal strength and quality and other times when it is bad signal quality. However the phone averages this out and displays 3 bars. Or 2 bars.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #398 of 604
I said this earlier... it also depends on where you are. In my home area, I can reproduce the problem with covering the antenna gap, but at my parents house, I can cover the gap all day long and still get a perfectly good signal and fast loading web pages.

Also, in Portland Maine, I saw no issues with covering the antenna.

Both were done with 3G on and Wifi off.

Maybe the people who aren't having the problem do not have "flawless" phones, but instead live in an area that is like my parent's area.

There is definitely something weird going on, but I think it may be possible to fix with a software update. Perhaps there's an integer screwed up somewhere that is telling the phone to do what it shouldn't be. I'm not a software engineer, so I'm only making guesses here. I'm also not saying that my results are the definitive answer either. It's just an observation.

Has anyone else experienced this on their iPhone 4?
post #399 of 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Did you miss what the iPhone manual says? The more bars, the stronger the signal.

The iPhone actually shows this perfectly well with the progressive downgrade of bars represented. When the finger touches the antenna insulator, the phone will go from 5 bars to 3 bars to 1 bar to no bars over a period of time.

The iOS is AVERAGING the signal strength, meaning that it takes into account interference and periodic strength degradation and represents the cumulative value in the number of bars.

It's why the bars don't go from 5 to 0 in one or two seconds but rather takes time.

Wow! So you're still saying that 5 bars equates to the maximum Decibel level one can achieve on the device and not simply a more powerful signal than less bars. Fricken amazing!

Pro Tip: You could get some respect by letting go your hubris and simply staing...

"My bad,

Park Seward. I was looking at it in a completely diffferent way. You're right, there is no way to tell what full strength is based on the bars shown, all we deduce is 5 bars represents a more powerful signal than less than 5 bars." Instead you're just reinforce what everyone already thinks about you. If you can't admit being wrong online how can you do it in your every day life. Not good, g3pro, not good.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #400 of 604
In dead zones, despite close proximity to a tower, the phone will register zero bars. There is no "5 bars but no call quality" non-sense.

Are you actually going to tell me that 1 bar is better than 5 bars?

And please, please don't get into non-sense about analog transmission, ok? Networks these days are digital only. There is no need to make comparisons to the Vietnam war and analog radios.
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
Reply
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