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Religious Thread: BEWARE! ;) (Discussion on end times)

post #1 of 140
Thread Starter 
Wow, and yet you still came in and looked around. Now that you are here at least let me know what your opinion of Judeo-Christion, end times, armegeddon, end of thew world type prophecy is. Be nice, if you think it is balogna don't slap me with it, just say why and check back later, I promise to respond when I get time.

My major thrust for this thread is to gather information and just talk things out with people. If this thread soon dissapears I will know that no one cared. Simple enough.

Post links to sites that talk about end time prophecy and the like. Share your impressions/feelings. Discuss it. Have fun! I am looking for facts and theories here. This could be an interesting thread. Unlike my other thread where I wanted to know how you thought the world would actually end (or the universe for you optimists out there ) this time I want to know if you think that you know what the events are that lead up to the end. Think you know the order? Basic time frames? Read a good book on it? Post it all here, and maybe we can find out if we agree on anything, or if my interpretation of waht is fact is indeed stranger than fiction.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #2 of 140
I believe the most recent scientific observations lead to an open universe.

The universe will continue to expand, protons will decay, leaving a cold empty universe.

Of course, if I remember correctly, inflation suggests our universe is just one of many - phase transitions - and who knows, there may be collisions, leading to new universes.
http://freehenson.da.ru/ - chased out of America because he exposed the evils of Scientology. So much for freedom.
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http://freehenson.da.ru/ - chased out of America because he exposed the evils of Scientology. So much for freedom.
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post #3 of 140
I dunno... I think it would be pretty boring if we knew how the whole thing would end, kinda like reading the end of a book first.
I'm not living... I'm just killing time.
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I'm not living... I'm just killing time.
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post #4 of 140
I could make a very good prediction for you if I knew the actual amount of dark matter in the Universe.
post #5 of 140
Thread Starter 
Good start! I expected a different reply from what I have gotten so far. A bit less civil. So we have a few scientific approaches. A bit slim on figures, mostly just water-cooler talk. Got any pages with pictures and diagrams you can link to? I can already tell you that I will be posting the more religious side myself, but you already knew that.

There is room here for all speculation, religious, scientific, or otherwise. especially since none of us will likely be completely right one way or another. Lets keep the speculation going. More details is what I am after though. A supposed timeline would be good.

Still working on mine, not ready yet for a good post.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #6 of 140
well, this is just off_the_top_of_my_head_rambling, but seeing as the good Noah started a thread, I thought I'd respond.

In all likelyhood, i do not see another world war ending life on the planet. I don't think it would get to the stage where there would be MAD. It is pretty obvious though that events in the middle east could trigger some widespread war that may kill a good % of the world popuulation, but nothing to make us extinct. In any case, Is this thread about my end / the human end, or the worlds end?

I guess in Noah's scenario that the world ends on Judgement day, Q. Do you think that is the end of the physical universe, as God makes a new place for his chosen to live in?

In all likely hood, the end of the human race, I think is most likely to come from a biological disaster, I don't mean Saddam dropping anthrax on us all, but quite likely a genetic mutation of some natural bug that turns real nasty. But I don't think this could wipe out everyone, although the civilization may go back a thousand years.

Possibly an asteroid collision? could happen at any time, I guess we are overdue for one, but I expect it again would just set back life a few hundred years.

As for the end of the universe, well I'd hunch that the universe is a closed system. I cant get my head around the open model, because it poses to many unanswerable questions, like, if the universe was one time only, what existed before and what will exist after, how do you actually define after anyway, surely even if everything decays to radiation, ok, but thats still part of the one time event, so where would the radiation go? So you'd sy the end of the onetime universe is when all the radiation has gone? I like the closed model, because it is simple to visualize expansion/contraction regeneration continuous cycle thing, But that does not mean it is correct.

I think it may also be possible, that we have been put here by a more advanced species (ok stop laughing), but think, if we had the capability to reach uninhabited life sustaining planets, would we have done it. Im pretty sure we would, even if after hundreds of years of politically correct debates, some oil co decided it was going to do it anyway, deny it and then pay the govn. to keep quiet.
post #7 of 140
As for events leading up to the end, a kind of time line if you like, well, i guess thats pretty hard really, If I thought an asterioid hit was the way it all ended, I guess it could be anywhen from now to infinity. In all possibility, if a direct hit was discovered, do you think that the GOVN. would tell us anyway? Suppose a collision was discovered that wiped out the best part of the USA, and the GOVN had 2 weeks notice. How do they deal with that? Mass murder, arson, robbery, looting, rape, riots, etc, prolly better just to keep quiet, get yourself out, and let the population continue as normal until they see a bit of a dark shadow. Either way they're dead.

As for biological disaster, well I guess it would again be anytime really, but in all likelyness, we would get a few months of all the nastys I listed above, before everyone keeled over.

Isn't Jesus sposed to reapear in either 2001 of 2006? Is that on todays calender, or one of the ancient ones that we have adjusted,

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you Noah, last time we were discussing religion. At Easter, I switched the TV on halfway through a show, It was a news program, with all the regular guys, studios etc that we have in the UK. It was quite late, and I was half asleep, anyway, the reader starts talking about Jesus being reportedly seen walking along the bank of whatever that river is in palestine, then they showed footage, of literally hundreds of witnesses of 'middle eastern' origin disciples who had witnessed the events, and some other accounts of alters in churches sspontaneuous combusting etc. All the reports are genuinely in the standard style of the news channel, and set in 2002. Remember, I am really dozy at the time this was on . WOW, did I crap my pants for a few minutes, until reality finally set in of what this spoof was!!!!
post #8 of 140
Q for Noah,

do you have any theory on where GOD originated from? If Im understanding you correctly, you will say that god created the world/universe, and he dicided when it ends,

do you think God has to answer to anybody, like if there is a heirarchy of gods, perhaps he is just a lower down one? Perhaps there is more than 1 universe, and each of the gods gets to create one, and look after its contents and inhabitants.
post #9 of 140
God is dead.
No seriously, plenty of religions have had the same type of prophecies, but since they are not around any more I guess we can consider ourself safe from these predicitons.
The world/earth still will be around when the judeo-christian belifes are nothing but distant history too...

Have you read Douglas Adams? he wrote some great stuff about the end of the universe. Just comedy, but still worth the read.
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
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post #10 of 140
Let's say for example, that the world ends the same way someone thought it began. In a garden. Well, ok, began with the void, but let's at least fastforward to the angiosperms. I'm of course a fan of Nietzsche's eternal return and if my day today was to be eternally repeated that would be ok. SO I planted the flax and the zucchini and the cucumbers in the garden. I thought about compost. I read some Wendell Berry. I watched a movie (ok two--I'm not proud). Are these the end times? I would suggest that every day is its own end time. And everyday we have to ask if Nietzsche's demon would hold any special terror for us. Today, no, not for me. The question I find interesting: If these are the endtimes, would it change how you live your life? You're best off if the answer is no.

[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: Mac Freak ]</p>
post #11 of 140
I shed religious piousness a long time ago...

I am a humanist, thats it...

I dont believe the world will end (If it ever does) by any other means than the direct stupidity of man...

mini-rant...

this is what switched me to a humanist...
---

I believe god exists...

I think god exist...

The same thing right? both are basically uncertainty...

I belief, faith, I think...

All these religous "believers" seem to "know" everything... And get really when you question their "beliefs"... And they fight and argue with each other both verbally and physically... about what's what... And this can get really out of hand...

Even thou their "fiath" is based solely in uncertainty/"I belief" mentality...

Until I hear any evidence on god... the whole thing is too be held questionable...

This does not mean I am a cold hearted bast@rd... I am a very nice guy, I just believe that theories should remain theories... and be regarded as such...

and a quote:

"Even of what little bit you think you do know, You dont know the half of it..." - The Arrival

Just being a human means you can never know everything... surety is an illusion...

"question everything, rule nothing out..." - Unknown

---

[Edited: Removed this portion... before it might have gotten me into trouble...]

---
The day I became a humanist...

I went to church once when I was 20 before I had to leave for a long time... And I am a very respectfull person and give people the "benifit of the doubt"... But I could hardly keep from cracking up "out loud"... I couldnt belive people actually let this garbage thru their "reason" filters...

I large group of people sang some "whacked out" almost un-intelligible 2000BC song... not that well, I might add... SO many thee's and thou's its hard to understand a word that was uttered...

ANd then this idiot preacher started droning on-and-on about the same thing for an hour...(I am talking proffesional circular thought here people) then I guess it was "break time" and everyone got up and went over to the snack counter... after this everybody was paired up into "prayer circles"...

This was heart breaking... And at the same time, I almost had a heart attack luaghing inside...

My stupidity alarm was going off "left and right"...
these guys were pouring their hearts out in front on me... this was somewhat scary and unbelievably korny... it was like a football huddle... then it was just over and the open the door to let the people(sheep) out...

And that was the day I became a humanist...

If what I saw there was indicative of the majority of what passes for the norm... we are soo screwed... as a species...

end mini-rant

I am sorry if I have led off track here i just needed to get some stuff of my chest...

------------------------------------

© FERRO 2001-2002

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
post #12 of 140
I went from cultural-Christian to agnostic to Christian. But the thing is that I really am not a big fan of "born again" Christian hype or of prosteletyzing. (spelling?) Interestingly, I started reading some books on Buddhism, and I really saw the brilliance of the religion I once questioned (i.e. Christianity).

I'm also very scientific. I'm not going to guess how Earth will end, but by the time a force potentially capable of destroying it comes along, technology will have advanced to the point that elimination of this force should be a reasonable solution. Beyond that I'm not going to predict how the universe is going to end. I'm willing to bet that it will re-collapse, but that we just have no real gauge on the masses involved, so current approximations have no base. (The great thing is that i can't LOSE this bet)

I suppose the bottom line is that I DO believe that there is a controlling force and creator of the universe, and I do believe in an afterlife of sorts. I also believe that there's some sort of psychic connection to something out there. I've had enough prophetic dreams to convince me that there's more than coincidence.

But as far as the apocalyse goes, I don't think the state of our ancestors will be as such that we can gauge the experience they will face. The solar system alone is scheduled to last another couple billion years. In a couple billion years microbes evolved to thinking, advanced beings. Another couple billion years could yield an ancestor that defies our current imaginations.

On a related note, we tend to compare armageddon, apocalyse, judgement day, etc, to devices of our current imaginations. Perhaps the whole process will be a peaceful process, but one that our current minds just can't grasp.
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post #13 of 140
[quote]All these religous "believers" seem to "know" everything... And get really when you question their "beliefs"... And they fight and argue with each other both verbally and physically... about what's what... And this can get really out of hand... <hr></blockquote>

Wow, you really don't get it. This is a hugely general statement, and not very accurate. Many of the people you are referencing have accepted Christ on faith, not scientific fact.....that is the whole idea. Once one is willing to accept Him as the Savior, that is what makes one "saved". FAITH is the whole idea. Only man's arrogance would demand proof. In any case, I know that in my life I have all the proof I need. And so we are clear, I am not what I consider to be "religous". I am a person of faith however. There is a difference.

The rest of your post, from the "whacked out" 2000 B.C song as you call it, to the "idiot preacher", to the "stupidity alarm" for the prayer circles, just shows how incredibly ignorant you are. And I mean that in the truest sense of the word, not the just the derogatory sense. The quality of performance of the song has nothing to do with the quality of the song itself, and I really doubt it was composed in 2000 B.C, since I assume you were at CHRISTIAN church. Perhaps the preacher wasn't good.......but I wasn't there so I'll let that alone.

I am not a big fan of public worship (sometimes) either, but my feeling is that your experience made you uncomfortable and it was something you were not familiar with. You therefore called it "stupid". Your entire post shows how superior you feel to these people. Perhaps you should try some different experiences before passing judgement on "all these believers".
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #14 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by SDW2001:
<strong>

Wow, you really don't get it. This is a hugely general statement, and not very accurate. Many of the people you are referencing have accepted Christ on faith, not scientific fact.....that is the whole idea. Once one is willing to accept Him as the Savior, that is what makes one "saved". FAITH is the whole idea. Only man's arrogance would demand proof. In any case, I know that in my life I have all the proof I need. And so we are clear, I am not what I consider to be "religous". I am a person of faith however. There is a difference.

The rest of your post, from the "whacked out" 2000 B.C song as you call it, to the "idiot preacher", to the "stupidity alarm" for the prayer circles, just shows how incredibly ignorant you are. And I mean that in the truest sense of the word, not the just the derogatory sense. The quality of performance of the song has nothing to do with the quality of the song itself, and I really doubt it was composed in 2000 B.C, since I assume you were at CHRISTIAN church. Perhaps the preacher wasn't good.......but I wasn't there so I'll let that alone.

I am not a big fan of public worship (sometimes) either, but my feeling is that your experience made you uncomfortable and it was something you were not familiar with. You therefore called it "stupid". Your entire post shows how superior you feel to these people. Perhaps you should try some different experiences before passing judgement on "all these believers".</strong><hr></blockquote>

My decision to regard there activity as "Stupid" is at my sole discretion... the experience did not make me "uncomfortable"... It made me laugh my arse off all the way home, Accepting "Christ on faith" is one thing, procliaming that it is truth is a paradoxial statement... I really saw no real purpose to that gathering... They came, they sang, they went home... they accomplished nothing... Their gatherings only serve to perpetuate their inclusive belief structure thru mutual acceptance of "I believe this, you belive this... we believe this... so its must be true type of thinking...". Wether I observe this type of mentality thru personal experience or thru a medium such as tv, there is no external basis for there intricate and often contradictory thought proccesses... I give you the fact that there is an exorbitant amount of internal logic involved in these circular reasonings... but the fact remains that even if an individual claims to take something on faith... that alone does not make him/her right, it does not negate anothers view/faith or does its form its own base from which to include all other various implications or inclusions of knowledge or beliefs based solely on faith... this is why people fight soo intensly, becuase they believe "faith is the substance of things not seen"... Based on uncertainty, it is the substance of things hoped for...

People who use faith as the measure of truth and what they believe to be true are indeed only fooling themselves, this is by far the main guide by which the average person decides truth from lie, this gut feeling cannot be trusted becuase it is primarilly induced by emotions which can be very easilly fooled and co-opted to serve to facilitate the large occult organisation that feed of this method of trusting the gut for finacial and political gain... and alternatively is a mild from of mass delusion... the perpetuation of unproven thought structures held up by tradition and complacency...

I hold a much more rigid indicator of truth to what I will accept as truth... My beliefs are to be tested and until verified are just that... "beliefs", nothing more... they are to be regarded as such... they are not truth, they are beliefs...

If what you believe was the true, you wouldnt need to believe.

You would "know", you wouldnt need faith...

but you dont "know"...

So until you "know", belief is to be regarded as such...

------------------------------------

© FERRO 2001-2002

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
post #15 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by MarcUK:
<strong>Q for Noah,

do you have any theory on where GOD originated from? If Im understanding you correctly, you will say that god created the world/universe, and he dicided when it ends, </strong><hr></blockquote>

God did not origionate. God is. It says in the Bible, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." It is hard for me to think outside of time and space as that is where my reality exists. But God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, OmniPresent, et al. It is hard to wrap my mind around, but to me that should be how it is. If I can understand God completely then how could he be God? It also is said in the bible that God's ways are beyond our understanding. I would like to leave it at that, but my mind wants to understand! I am sure yours is the same.

[quote]<strong>do you think God has to answer to anybody, like if there is a heirarchy of gods, perhaps he is just a lower down one? Perhaps there is more than 1 universe, and each of the gods gets to create one, and look after its contents and inhabitants.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, I don't think so. God was very clear in the bible. There is only 1 god and He is that 1. If God had to answer to someone would he be God anymore? As far as multiple gods and multiple universes, interesting idea, but I do not think so. Even if there was, we are answerable to our God and no other.

[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #16 of 140
I can supply a less civil reply if you really need one?
IBL!
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IBL!
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post #17 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>God is dead.
No seriously, plenty of religions have had the same type of prophecies, but since they are not around any more I guess we can consider ourself safe from these predicitons.
The world/earth still will be around when the judeo-christian belifes are nothing but distant history too... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, if you are right then I lived my life and no harm, no foul. And it justifies any mode of living since there is no higher power to answer to. If you are wrong, then you will find out how right I am and how wrong you are when you die. This goes for all things, Life after death, end of the world, and the events leading up to the end. when you die, you will either cease to exist (a popular belief), or there will be an afterlife and you will know who was right and who was full of it. Pray you are right in your beliefs. Meanwhile I pray for all of you. Hope you don't mind.

[quote]<strong>Have you read Douglas Adams? he wrote some great stuff about the end of the universe. Just comedy, but still worth the read.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Hitchhikers Guide series. Who has not read that (and aren't you ashamed of yourself for not doing so )? Great book. World ends because they had to make way for a Trans-Galactic super highway if I recall correctly. Made losing his house a little easier in the end I guess. Interesting read, quite funny, but still only comedy, sarcasm, and fiction.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #18 of 140
NoahJ, trying really hard to convince yourself, eh?
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post #19 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>I can supply a less civil reply if you really need one?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you for holding back! This community still suprises me pleasantly from time to time. I like how they try not to hold one thing against you that you diagree with them about and most threads give you a clean slate. This is not always true, and some threads are interrelated, but overall it is a good place to discuss things.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #20 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>NoahJ, trying really hard to convince yourself, eh?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I need no convicing. I am convinced of everything I post. I could be a lot more assertive and try to steamroll every other opinion, but who would enjoy that? Nobody. I am interested in discussion, not me preaching to all of you and you all feeling like I am trying to be morally superior. If you disagree with me then that is your decision, I never said you had to like what I post. It is just another side in the debate for you to hear. I simply happen to believe it is the correct side.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #21 of 140
I'm a little concerned about you Noah - you seem obsessed with this topic. Maybe your parents should have named you John rather than Noah? But come to think of it, Noah was kinda apocalyptic too.


When will the world end? Really, I have no idea. I don't believe people can predict much of anything about the future. It's clear to me that financial analysts can't predict interest rates or stock performance. It's clear that psychologists can't predict behavior. Etc.

It's tough to live with uncertainty, but you get used to it after a while.

:confused: &lt;- me, trying to predict the future
post #22 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by FERRO:
<strong>I shed religious piousness a long time ago...

I am a humanist, thats it...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok

[quote]<strong>I dont believe the world will end (If it ever does) by any other means than the direct stupidity of man...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, so war, or a biological accident or some doofus mkaing a mistake with anti-matter or such then? So there is really no way to provide a timeline for this argument, could happen tomorrow, could never happen. Ok.

[quote]<strong>mini-rant...

this is what switched me to a humanist...
---

I believe god exists...

I think god exist...

The same thing right? both are basically uncertainty...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I believe the world is round. I have never been in space to see it for myself but that is what I am taught in school, all pictures on TV show it as such, and my globe on my desk is round. However I have no direct knowledge that this is the case, I take it on faith that I am not being lied to by NASA and other organizations and that it is a fact because of this.

I also have faith that when i sit down in a chair it will hold me up. Sometimes that faith is unfounded and the chair collapses under my weight, but for the most part my faith is well placed.

That is the same type of faith that I have in God. Only I trust God much more implicitly.

[quote]<strong>I belief, faith, I think...

All these religous "believers" seem to "know" everything... And get really when you question their "beliefs"... And they fight and argue with each other both verbally and physically... about what's what... And this can get really out of hand...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Many religious believers are this way. Not all. And yes there is far too much bickering in the church. This division is one main point that keeps people such as yourself from seeing the church as anything but religious factions that do not practice what they preach. This is not all churches, but it is some of the more visible ones, and it is pervasive enough that it can be found almost everywhere.

[quote]<strong>Even thou their "fiath" is based solely in uncertainty/"I belief" mentality...

Until I hear any evidence on god... the whole thing is too be held questionable...

This does not mean I am a cold hearted bast@rd... I am a very nice guy, I just believe that theories should remain theories... and be regarded as such...</strong><hr></blockquote>

All faith is there though. The evidence for God is all around you. But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. He is not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (He might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. )

Nobody says you are a cold hearted b@st@rd. Least of all me.

[quote]<strong>and a quote:

"Even of what little bit you think you do know, You dont know the half of it..." - The Arrival

Just being a human means you can never know everything... surety is an illusion...

"question everything, rule nothing out..." - Unknown</strong><hr></blockquote>

Those quotes can go both ways. I see them as pushing people to let go of their conceptions of what they think they no and to embrace the possibility (reality) that God is real and he loves them. What do you see in these quotes?

[quote]<strong>---

[Edited: Removed this portion... before it might have gotten me into trouble...]

---</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok. I would be interested to know what was so horrible, but I can live without seeing it.

[quote]<strong>The day I became a humanist...

I went to church once when I was 20 before I had to leave for a long time... And I am a very respectfull person and give people the "benifit of the doubt"... But I could hardly keep from cracking up "out loud"... I couldnt belive people actually let this garbage thru their "reason" filters...</strong><hr></blockquote>

What garbage? What was said? If it made such a huge impression on you so as to push you away from all religion you must remember some of it. Oh, and what church was it? Just curious...

[quote]<strong>I large group of people sang some "whacked out" almost un-intelligible 2000BC song... not that well, I might add... SO many thee's and thou's its hard to understand a word that was uttered...</strong><hr></blockquote>

2000 BC? Wow, a Chrsitian song from before Christ himself. Now that is prophetic!!! What song?

[quote]<strong>ANd then this idiot preacher started droning on-and-on about the same thing for an hour...(I am talking proffesional circular thought here people) then I guess it was "break time" and everyone got up and went over to the snack counter... after this everybody was paired up into "prayer circles"... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Since it was the same thing for an hour, what was he droning on and on about? This story goes nowhere without a little bit of facts.

This time is called fellowship. It is a time for you to get to know your fellow church member and to help them in their struggles. It is a basic tenet of the church for us to pray for one another and build one another up in Christ. The food helps you to relax and enjoy the toime and not think aobut how hungry you are and how you want to go home and eat. I see nothing here too outlandish.

[quote]<strong>This was heart breaking... And at the same time, I almost had a heart attack luaghing inside...

My stupidity alarm was going off "left and right"...
these guys were pouring their hearts out in front on me... this was somewhat scary and unbelievably korny... it was like a football huddle... then it was just over and the open the door to let the people(sheep) out...<hr></blockquote></strong>

Heart breaking? Like when you pour out your heart to someone and he is having a heart attack laughing about it inside while his "stupidity alarm" is going off?

BTW, how do you know it just ended there? Did you make any attempt to meet with any of these people after the time of fellowship was over? I go to barbeques with my church members at their homes sometimes. We go out to movies, river rafting, etc. When something happens that causes me real distress I can talk to my pastors about it, or any church memebers and they can comfort me and sometimes even give real help (in your eyes), beyond the prayer that is always present.

[quote]<strong>And that was the day I became a humanist...

If what I saw there was indicative of the majority of what passes for the norm... we are soo screwed... as a species...

end mini-rant

I am sorry if I have led off track here i just needed to get some stuff of my chest...</strong><hr></blockquote>

This whole post was somewhat off topic but I wanted to answer you on some things. Most of my answers were genuine curiosity. Others were merely observations. None were meant as an attack on you.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #23 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>I'm a little concerned about you Noah - you seem obsessed with this topic. Maybe your parents should have named you John rather than Noah? But come to think of it, Noah was kinda apocalyptic too.


When will the world end? Really, I have no idea. I don't believe people can predict much of anything about the future. It's clear to me that financial analysts can't predict interest rates or stock performance. It's clear that psychologists can't predict behavior. Etc.

It's tough to live with uncertainty, but you get used to it after a while.

:confused: &lt;- me, trying to predict the future</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not obsessed, intrigued. Besides, it makes for interesting conversations, and sometimes you can even find a good story or two in there that are worth thinking about and repeating later. If nothing else it gets me thinking...I am also not able to predict the future with times and dates, but I believe that there is a roadmap that has been laid out that gives a good idea of how everything will go down when it does.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #24 of 140
[quote] The evidence for God is all around you <hr></blockquote>

Now thats an open statement....

The evidence of Buhhda, Alla, gnomes and the tooth fairy is all around you... But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. they are not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (they might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. ) &lt;-- thats a bit convenient...

If your willing to suspend any logical answers and only require faith as your guide... then when I see "all" those presents under the tree at christmas...

"I have seen the evidence that santa clause exist..."

but if you look into it a little further... ... ...

---

If you want details... I cant give them too you... I dont remember what the preacher was talking about, the minute he began to overlap I began to look around the room only paying him random moments of attention to keep track...

[quote] Ok, so war, or a biological accident or some doofus making a mistake with anti-matter or such then? So there is really no way to provide a timeline for this argument, could happen tomorrow, could never happen. Ok. <hr></blockquote>

WTH... kind of logic is that?... I am sure that the people who went to work in the trade towers never thought anything like that could happen either...

Heck, nobody did...

Well, a few people did but no one listened...

[quote] Heart breaking? Like when you pour out your heart to someone and he is having a heart attack laughing about it inside while his "stupidity alarm" is going off? <hr></blockquote>

Yes it was really sad the thought proccesses and guilt trips that this religion perpetuates... the "fuzzy logic" that was being mutually accepted and reinforced by these believers was incredibly amuzing and yet very saddening...

I suggest you read this... <a href="http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/thebible.html" target="_blank">thebible.html</a>

------------------------------------

© FERRO 2001-2002

[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
post #25 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by FERRO:
<strong>Now thats an open statement....

The evidence of Buhhda, Alla, gnomes and the tooth fairy is all around you... But if you choose to not see it in that light I cannot change your mind. they are not going to appear to you tomorrow and shake your hand. (they might, but since an impure human cannot live in his presence it would be a short lived, in human form, pleasure. ) &lt;-- thats a bit convenient...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where is the evidence of the tooth fairy? Easter bunny? Gnomes? Buddha? I know where my thoughts come from.

Psalm 19
1 Psalm 19 For the director of music. A psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.


However I don't want this to become an argument thread about whether my beliefs or yours are right so I am going to answer your questions and try not to perpetuate it too far off topic.

It has been documented in ancient Israeli texts that the high priests that went into the temple of God would go in with a rope tied around their ankles. That way if they had not properly purified themselves before God and died in their encounter with Him they could be pulled out by the rope. Does not sound convenient to me.

[quote]<strong>If your willing to suspend any logical answers and only require faith as your guide... then when I see "all" those presents under the tree at christmas...

"I have seen the evidence that santa clause exist..."

but if you look into it a little further... ... ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is a big diffrence. First of all, Santa Clause did exist in one form, a long time ago as well. But there is no evidence that he could do any of what is attributed to him now. In fact, the santa we know now did not really exist until "Twas the Night Before Christams" was written. Nobody is trying to perpetuate the myth of Santa except as something for little kids to look foreward to. I am not teaching my kids that Santa is real. Sime things have no real useful purpose. Not that Santa is bad, i just don't see the use. I never believed in him, I don't feel like I missed anything.

[quote]<strong>If you want details... I cant give them too you... I dont remember what the preacher was talking about, the minute he began to overlap I began to look around the room only paying him random moments of attention to keep track...</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is too bad. Oh well.

[quote]<strong>WTH... kind of logic is that?... I am sure that the people who went to work in the trade towers never thought anything like that could happen either...<hr></blockquote></strong>

Whoa! :eek: Calm down there big guy! I was merely summing up yout point that was relevant to the topic. You do not believe the world is going to end, but if it does it will be by mens stupidity. Thus my quote that you reacted so vehemently to. Think sum up, not argument. Or did I miss your point?

[quote]<strong>Yes it was really sad the thought proccesses and guilt trips that this religion perpetuates... the "fuzzy logic" that was being mutually accepted and reinforced by these believers was incredibly amuzing and yet very saddening...

I suggest you read this... <a href="http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/thebible.html" target="_blank">thebible.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Examples? What guilt trips? Fuzzy logic? Does it tickle?

If I get time. I have a lot of other reading that is more important right now that is work related....
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #26 of 140
Thread Starter 
Read your link, at least partially. All of those things are brought up in bible as lit type courses. The unwillingness of the authour of that site to read in full context is amazing!

I will take one point. The one of the flood.

He states:
[quote]<strong>Contradictions also abound in the biblical account of a worldwide flood. Genesis 6:19-22 says that God ordered Noah to bring "of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort . . . into the ark." Genesis 7:2-3 states, however, that the Lord ordered Noah take into the ark the clean beasts and the birds by sevens and the unclean beasts by twos.

Genesis 7:17 relates that the flood lasted forty days, whereas Genesis 8:3 tells us it lasted one hundred and fifty days. Genesis 8:4 reports that, as the waters of the flood receded, Noahs ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat in the seventh month. But the very next verse asserts that the mountaintops could not even be seen until the tenth month. Genesis 8:13 states that the earth was dry on the first day of the first month; contrariwise, Genesis 8:14 reports that the earth was not dry until the twenty-seventh day of the second month.</strong><hr></blockquote>

First of all, the animal were brought in 2X2. Male and Female. The 7 animals, clean and unclean, were for food for Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives. This was going to be a long trip, were they not supposed to bring lunch?

And as for the timeline. The Rains lasted 40 days and 40 nights. The flood itself lasted 150 days when the ark rested on the top of mount Ararat. The ark was how big? Very big. A lot of that boat is going to be under water. SO it stands to reason that the top of that mountain could still be covered with water for quite a while after the boat comes to rest on it, thus not visible over the water yet.

As far as the dryness is concerned. I will let you read the verse yourself.

13 By the first day of the first month of Noah's six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.
14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.


The water was dried up by the first month. Still a bit muddy though. By the end of the second month the ground had firmed up and completely dried.

This article goes on to nitpick like this throughout. I only picked the Ark one for brevity, I will not take time to put every one of his facts straight as I have a life outside of this discussion that I could not live if I were to do that. The article is fishy at best. They have an axe they are grinding, but they are not doing it well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #27 of 140
Thread Starter 
One other easy point from that article.

[quote]<strong>The Old Testament is further contradictory as to whether the Lord commanded the Israelites to sacrifice animals to him. According to Jeremiah 7:22, God denied that he ever gave the Israelites commandments about animal sacrifices. In contrast, Exodus 29:38-42 and many other verses in the Pentateuch clearly depict God as requiring the Israelites to offer animal sacrifices.<hr></blockquote></strong>

And now for a bit of reality and reading for comprehension:

22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,
23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you.

In case you missed it I bolded the operative word, just. It does not say I did not command you to.... It says, I did not JUST command you to...

Totally different meaning which the author could not be bothered with I guess.

Did you even research any of these claims, or do you just accept them as fact because the guy wrote a page about it and it sounds good to you? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #28 of 140
I concede...

In my attempt to refute you I linked a page for reference I had only found and browsed thru recently...

And you quickly shot me down...

I waited a day to respond...

I will make sure I read what I use as a defense of my oppinions in the future.... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

Always good to have people keep you in check...

doesnt mean I agree with you...

------------------------------------

© FERRO 2001-2002

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>
post #29 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by FERRO:
<strong>I concede...

In my attempt to refute you I linked a page for reference I had only found and browsed thru recently...

And you quickly shot me down...

I waited a day to respond...

I will make sure I read what I use as a defense of my oppinions in the future.... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />

Always good to have people keep you in check...

doesnt mean I agree with you...

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't expect you to just lay down your beliefs and roll over because I say so! Thank you for not turning it into a big argument though.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #30 of 140
Thread Starter 
I will now post the start of what I see as the beginning of the end. This will begin very generically and I will flesh it out as I go on. I will also go in depth as I can if there are any questions that arise along the way. In no way am I the end all expert on such things though so as usual, do your reading and call me on the carpet if I get it wrong!

In the last days there will be a few trends that will not be very obvious as they build up slowly over time. This is why I believe that everyone believes they are in the last days for years and years. These trends have, however, been getting steadily worse and I feel that eventually they will culminate in the beginning of the end.

Some of the signs:
  • Increase of false prophets and religious compromise within the church. Jesus in Matthew 24 is speaking on the end times. This will be also valid for many of the following points. He speaks of many coming in his name claiming to be the Christ and decieving many. This is reapeated in many other NT books.
  • Increase of crime and disregard of the law God laid out. People will be oblivious to others and not care so long as their lives are fulfilled and happy. They will not care about the ten commandments or self-purity as they will have found a more enlightened form of morality that allows them greater freedom than that which is laid out for them from their forefathers.
  • You will see a marked increase in war, famine, and earthquakes. Jesus says, that "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars", and also, "Nation will rise against Nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains."
  • There will be a decrease in love and family affection.
  • The persecution of believers in Jesus as saviour will increase. This is being seen in the Sudan and many other nations. Even in America being a Christian is compared with being part of the Taliban in much of the media.

These are some of the general points that can be found in the Bible. They are quite generic and no doubt many will say, "So, that happens all the time! Is that the best you can come up with?" I will answer, no. There is much more. These are just to set the stage for why the end must come (for those who believe in God and who He is).

They may seem weak to you humanists, and athiests, and pagans, and free thinkers who don't want to be labled. That is fine. I am just putting it out so you have the evidence in front of you. Feel free to post your own thoughts and interpretations.

Verses that were read to come up with some of this:

Matthew 10:21-23; 24:1-24
Luke 17:22-29
and many more, those were just a few to get you started.

More to come as I get more time....
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #31 of 140
It is impossible for us to comprehend certain things that mystify us about the universe. We don't know why we are here. We don't know how the universe was created. We don't know what happens after we die. These are all questions that cannot be answered. I choose not to make up stories or follow someone else's stories just to make myself feel a little better. I don't know what will happen after I die (other than being worm food) and it can be scary to think about it. However, I'm not going to simply make up a story that will comfort me.

Don't worry about things you can't understand. Now, some of you will cry, "Atheist!" Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an atheist. I simply just don't give a damn whether or not a god exists. If your god is as benevolent as you claim, I don't think he'd be so insecure as to condemn me to enternal pits of fire if I, a mere mortal, don't care to believe in him.
post #32 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>It is impossible for us to comprehend certain things that mystify us about the universe. We don't know why we are here. We don't know how the universe was created. We don't know what happens after we die. These are all questions that cannot be answered. I choose not to make up stories or follow someone else's stories just to make myself feel a little better. I don't know what will happen after I die (other than being worm food) and it can be scary to think about it. However, I'm not going to simply make up a story that will comfort me.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can see your point of view here. I do not fear what happens after I die, but it definitely does intrigue me.

[quote]<strong>Don't worry about things you can't understand. Now, some of you will cry, "Atheist!" Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not an atheist. I simply just don't give a damn whether or not a god exists. If your god is as benevolent as you claim, I don't think he'd be so insecure as to condemn me to enternal pits of fire if I, a mere mortal, don't care to believe in him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

John 3:16-17
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[2] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

2 Peter 3:8-10

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

As you say, it is your choice. And in the end you are held accountable for your choices. It is not God's fault what choice you make, He gave us freedom of choice so that when we do choose Him it is out of true love, not as a programmed robot.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #33 of 140
This is off-topic, Noah, but what the heck. You've always been very open and honest about your thoughts on these topics, and so I don't want to flame you about it. But reading your thoughts is disturbing to me in a way, and reminds me of why I choose not to be religious.

Basically, that:
there is a Supreme Being who will destroy the world
this being will choose who is and isn't saved
the rules for determining who is saved boil down to whether or not you believe in the being
the evidence of the being is based on (IMO) vague hints and questionable historical events

It really seems like something out of science fiction to me, and in some ways, it seems like a cruel hoax.

Of course, just because it sounds ridiculous to me doesn't mean it's not true. But in my judgment, it's not true, and reading your thoughts about it makes me even more certain of that.

And to top it off, I really find it difficult to get into your mind and understand why someone would believe these things. It's different than political views, or tastes in music or movies - with those things I can completely understand why someone's experiences and personality lead to different opinions than mine.

But this - I just have a hard time appreciating where it comes from. It seems SO outlandish and patently ridiculous (sorry), that I just can't grasp why people believe in it.

And it's not from lack of exposure to people who believe it - I think around 95% of people believe in God, and my parents, and my entire extended family, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis. But it doesn't help. I just don't get it.

It really does feel like some weird science fiction story where everyone acts like nothing is wrong, but they're all in on it together, like they're all aliens or vampires or something, and you're the only one who doesn't know.

I have noticed, though, that when this topic comes up, most people on internet boards seem to be atheists/agnostics. Hmmm...

Again, I don't mean to flame you, but you've been honest with your views, so there are mine.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
post #34 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>This is off-topic, Noah, but what the heck. You've always been very open and honest about your thoughts on these topics, and so I don't want to flame you about it. But reading your thoughts is disturbing to me in a way, and reminds me of why I choose not to be religious.<hr></blockquote></strong>

First of all, questioning my beliefs is not flaming me, I have no problems answering questions at all. If I don't know the answer I will research it and get back later. Flaming to me is, "You're an idiot, why don't you go hang yourself from the nearest cross you homophobic bigot!" Or something of that mindset.

[quote]<strong>Basically, that:
there is a Supreme Being who will destroy the world
this being will choose who is and isn't saved
the rules for determining who is saved boil down to whether or not you believe in the being
the evidence of the being is based on (IMO) vague hints and questionable historical events</strong><hr></blockquote>

Point 1: Yes, this is a fact. This will be done because the creation became tainted and the only way to fix that is to completely destroy it an build it up again. Either that or remove free will and accept that your followers are mind numbed robots that have no choice but to follow you and do not truly love you by choice.

Point 2: Wrong. We choose to accept salvation. It is God's will that all be saved. Some point to the verse that says that only those called by God will be saved, but my further research has brought me to the conclusion that all are called by God. Only those who answer that call are saved, all others who reject the free gift of salvation are not save. Not God's choice, theirs.

Point 3: Basically, yes. If you want more on this I will be happy to expand with further questioning if I can.

Point 4: Depend on what you call vauge hints and questionable hitsorical events. I will neither concede this point nor disagree as it is far too open-ended to aswer in its present form.

[quote]<strong>It really seems like something out of science fiction to me, and in some ways, it seems like a cruel hoax.

Of course, just because it sounds ridiculous to me doesn't mean it's not true. But in my judgment, it's not true, and reading your thoughts about it makes me even more certain of that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am sorry to hear that. That was not my intention, and remember, I am not most knowlegable person, I just happen to have a bit of knowledge and am sharing said information with any who care to look.

BTW, what parts made you sure that this stance is wrong and why? I am truly interested to see if I am presenting things the way I intend to or not. It is hard to judge how others will read and interpret what I have written sometimes.

[quote]<strong>And to top it off, I really find it difficult to get into your mind and understand why someone would believe these things. It's different than political views, or tastes in music or movies - with those things I can completely understand why someone's experiences and personality lead to different opinions than mine.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can see how that would be the case. Religion is one of the biggest polarizing points in the world. That, I feel, is because religion is not just a belief, it is typically a way of life and sometimes it does not make sense to those that do not agree with it or choose not to believe in it.

[quote]<strong>But this - I just have a hard time appreciating where it comes from. It seems SO outlandish and patently ridiculous (sorry), that I just can't grasp why people believe in it.

And it's not from lack of exposure to people who believe it - I think around 95% of people believe in God, and my parents, and my entire extended family, and most of the people I interact with on a daily basis. But it doesn't help. I just don't get it. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Heck, believing in God is easy. How hard can it be for most people to believe that there is something or someone out there that is responsible for many of the unexplained mysteries that confront us day after day? When you take it one step further and define your beliefs is where people start to diverge the most. The more narrowly you define it, the more divergence.

[quote]<strong>It really does feel like some weird science fiction story where everyone acts like nothing is wrong, but they're all in on it together, like they're all aliens or vampires or something, and you're the only one who doesn't know.</strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL! Like The Twilight Zone...

[quote]<strong>I have noticed, though, that when this topic comes up, most people on internet boards seem to be atheists/agnostics. Hmmm...

Again, I don't mean to flame you, but you've been honest with your views, so there are mine.
:confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Thnank you for your sincerity. I hope I have answered your questions in such a way that you can live with. If not, feel free to ask more. If I am not clear to you, or you have a problem with any points I have made let me know. I am not trying to change your mind, just trying to put forth my viewpoint as clearly as possible so when you decide whether or not I am full of it that I am sure I put it forth clearly enough. As I have said before, I will answer what I can.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #35 of 140
Thread Starter 
The next point of the events leading up to the end is a little thing known as "The Rapture". This part of the post for me will be short as I am the least sure of this than all the rest of the things I will post later on.

For those not aware, The Rapture is when the church is removed from the earth. You can argue who the Church is, and I would be interested to see some views on that, but I will suffice it to say, those that have accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour are supposed to be Raptured sometime near the end of the world.

There are three main views on when The Rapture is to happen. Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, and Post-Tribulation.

I will get into the Tribulation in another post, but suffice it to say that this will be the hardest time in the history of man. The only paralell I can draw is the plagues on Egypt during Exodus, only global and worse.

Those who are Pre-Tribulation believe that God will pull out the Church before the Tribulation to keep them from any of the bad things that are to happen, sort of as a reward for being on the right side and sort of in protection like a father protects his children.

Those who are Mid-Tribulation believe that the Church will be pulled out in the middle of the Tribulation. The reasoning behind this is that the first part of the Tribulation will be mostly natural disasters and such, and when we get to the second and worst part of the Tribulation that will be when God pours out His wrath on a sinful world that refuses to accept Him. This for them makes sense that He would not make His Church live through this time as they would not be the objects of His wrath. This one is most reasonable to me, but I am unsure.

The last is Post-Tribulation. This is the least popular of the three. God will make everyone go through all of the Tribulation, and in the end those who stay loyal to him will be raptured. Harsh, but no one knows which is really true as the bible does not give a clear timeline on this that I can be absolutely sure I have interpreted right.

I heard of one other type that I fall squarely into. This type is called a Pan-Tribulation. This one falls under, it will all pan out in the end.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #36 of 140
The start post of this thread is so wide in scope...

re. prophecy: this is definitely a large part of 'evangelical Christianity'. Do we live in a 'free-will zone'? Every moment of every instance in time there are 6 billion conscious humans making decisions and acting upon them, and each one of these affects the timeline. The number of interactions and decisions and choices is mindbogglingly immense, and the world is subject to change at each infinitessimally tiny slice of time. Each human decision, no matter how seemingly insignificant affects the course of history; the one world in which we exist at any moment in the present is just one of an almost infinity of parallel possibilities, or worlds that are outside of our consciousness. If there really is something concrete and valid to prophecy/clairvoyance etc., then does not that mean that everything is premapped, and we don't make conscious choices, and free-will is but an illusion? Does that mean that nobody is responsible for their actions, no matter how benevolent/malevolent in intent?

I get a little uncomfortable with all those kitsch new-agey interpetations of physics (Deepak Chopra et al), but the implications of the validity of prophecy just don't seem to tally with anything we currently know about the nature of time/relativity and the (popularly portrayed) 'link' between consciousness, observation, intent and decisions and quantum mechanics. If time progresses in a linear fashion, as is perceived by the brain, then the ability to go forward in time (centuries? millennia?) to just one scenario in an infinite number of possibilities of bifurcations resulting from all those human decisions seems to cast doubt on that perceived linear nature of time. Perhaps this is all a grand illusion? Perhaps it's all a hoax? How are we to know amyway? The more we discover about the nature of things, the horizon seems to expand exponentially out in front of us, as if for each discovery, there's a hundred new mysteries.

Some native American groups such as the Hopi have 'flexible' prophecies, in that trends are seen and extrapolated into the future, and change is acknowledged and recommended concerning activities and behavior of a destructive nature.

All faiths have their own prophecies, just like all faiths have their take on 'universal truth' (argh), and each faith righteously has a "my gang is better than your gang" take. I've watched evangelical Christian versions of prophecy, and they seem to be very rigid and have a manipulative stance: like....it's all going to end at some point so why should we give a damn? There's nothing we can do about it anyway, so as long as you give yourself to Jesus and believe in him, then you will be 'saved', and if you don't you are going to 'eternal hell and damnation'. There is almost a heirarchical and military feel to the way religion and prophecy is dispensed, in that folk are demanded to have faith, always accept and never question. Prophecy is a powerful tool in the hands of a charismatic speaker, specially when addressing the uneducated and gullible.

[quote]And as for the timeline. The Rains lasted 40 days and 40 nights. The flood itself lasted 150 days when the ark rested on the top of mount Ararat. The ark was how big? Very big. A lot of that boat is going to be under water. SO it stands to reason that the top of that mountain could still be covered with water for quite a while after the boat comes to rest on it, thus not visible over the water yet.<hr></blockquote>

This one always gets me....Ararat is a huge volcano 18000 high...thats over 3 miles above current sealevel!!. Since water finds its own level, this flood, after 150 days would therefore have ended up covering the entire Earth to a depth of at least 3 miles (!?!?!?). This is more water than currently exists in all the oceans...all falling as rain in 40 days and nights?!! Where is the geological evidence that the Earth (in very recent geological times) suddenly became more than 90% covered in a cataclysmic flood 3 miles deep..and then mysteriously disappear? Some of these literal interpretations of scripture tend to stretch the limits of credulity to well beyond the absurd.



Nobody has found the ark (yet), despite Marco Polo and others for centuries saying that its up there in the snows of Ararat. Ararat is here on Earth (not on Mars) and if the ark was truly there...it would most probably have been found by now, despite the Turkish Government's recent uncooperative stance and the local conflicts. However, CIA spy satellites did take pictures of some strange-looking artifacts near the summit of Ararat inthe 70s and were instantly classified as "Top Secret" by US intelligence. Sheesh!

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #37 of 140
Noah, thanks for confirming why I will never be a christian.

I would have to lower my standards considerably,
in order to follow such an uncaring, evil god.
http://freehenson.da.ru/ - chased out of America because he exposed the evils of Scientology. So much for freedom.
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http://freehenson.da.ru/ - chased out of America because he exposed the evils of Scientology. So much for freedom.
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post #38 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by xenu:
<strong>Noah, thanks for confirming why I will never be a christian.

I would have to lower my standards considerably,
in order to follow such an uncaring, evil god.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uncaring? Evil? Explain please. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #39 of 140
Thread Starter 
SJO,

I was wondering when you would join the discussion. Good post. Good questions. I don't have the evidence you seek as I am not a geologist nor do I study geology. You are right about the depth i believe, so long as the mountain we now call Ararat is the same mountain called that then.

Some things we will have to wait till we die to find out. If when we die there is nothing, it will cease mattering anyhow. If when we die there is an afterlife then we will know (that is if we care about that anymore anyhow .)

Anyhow, your questions and such seemed very reasoned in my skimming of your long post. I will revisit it if there is any questions you brought up that you wanted me to address when I read it more thoroughly later.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #40 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

Uncaring? Evil? Explain please. :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Strange there is a huge contradiction between the god related by the old testimony : a god very rigid : follow me in the way of right or you are doomed (excuse me for this simplistic resume) and the god of Love describe by Jesus Christ.
Jesus has sacrified his life for the sake of Humankind even if this humankind was not very gratefull, and the god described by the old testimony is ready to destroy and rebuilt if the things does not go in the right way. It's seems to me it's 180 % opposite.
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