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Religious Thread: BEWARE! ;) (Discussion on end times) - Page 4

post #121 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

And the lord said, "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself god dammit."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Chapter? Verse? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #122 of 140
John 3:16 - And the lord said, "Go Sox!"
post #123 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>John 3:16 - And the lord said, "Go Sox!"</strong><hr></blockquote>

John 3:16-21

16Â*Â*Â*"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17Â*Â*Â*For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Â*Â*Â*Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19Â*Â*Â*This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Â*Â*Â*Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21Â*Â*Â*But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."


Seems to me you picked the wrong verse to point out if you are trying to prove your point.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #124 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

John 3:16-21

16Â*Â*Â*"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17Â*Â*Â*For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Â*Â*Â*Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19Â*Â*Â*This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Â*Â*Â*Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21Â*Â*Â*But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."


Seems to me you picked the wrong verse to point out if you are trying to prove your point.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was a joke you pretentious asshole. Take your bible and shove it up your ass for all I care. If you want to have blind faith in a corrupt system that was designed to control the ignorant masses, fine. Go right ahead. Keep it to yourself.
post #125 of 140
The fact that so many people still believe in some kind of God is just sad.
I guess I just don't understand how people can buy this crap. Maybe they have trouble dealing with the reality (you know, the fact that our lives have no purpose), but I'm fine with it. Religion is truly the people's opium and it has to be the biggest hoax of all times. Wake up, people! :eek:
I feel like an adult surrounded by kids who still believe in Santa Claus. It's fun to believe in Santa Claus for a little while, but eventually you need to grow up and face the reality. I guess we're not there yet.
post #126 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by lolo:
<strong>The fact that so many people still believe in some kind of God is just sad.
I guess I just don't understand how people can buy this crap. Maybe they have trouble dealing with the reality (you know, the fact that our lives have no purpose), but I'm fine with it. Religion is truly the people's opium and it has to be the biggest hoax of all times. Wake up, people! :eek:
I feel like an adult surrounded by kids who still believe in Santa Claus. It's fun to believe in Santa Claus for a little while, but eventually you need to grow up and face the reality. I guess we're not there yet. </strong><hr></blockquote>

It's quite sad.
post #127 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

It was a joke you pretentious asshole. Take your bible and shove it up your ass for all I care. If you want to have blind faith in a corrupt system that was designed to control the ignorant masses, fine. Go right ahead. Keep it to yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Pretentious? How so? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #128 of 140
Thread Starter 
Revelation 14 is quite interesting, but it is all about things that happen in heaven and are likely all about events that are described in the other chapters. A few good quotes that are relevant to this threads stated intent:

9Â*Â*Â*A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
10Â*Â*Â*he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11Â*Â*Â*And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
12Â*Â*Â*This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.


It is fairly clear that if one receives the mark, whatever it may be (and it will be clear when it happens that it is the mark), they will be under the judgment of God when all is said and done. There is shown no way to recant once you have taken the mark either. The only instance I can find in scripture where possibly something cannot be forgiven, or maybe once you take the mark you will not be interested in forgiveness... On this point I am very unsure.

Revelation 15 takes us into the seven last plagues that will strike the earth and all in it. These are the last and they are God's judgment of the earth in its finality.

5Â*Â*Â*After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened.
6Â*Â*Â*Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests.
7Â*Â*Â*Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
8Â*Â*Â*And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.


Which leads us into Chapter 16. The wrath of God on those that chose to worship the AntiChrist is poured out here. The Physical manifestations are described here.

Revelation 16
1Â*Â*Â*Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."
2Â*Â*Â*The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.


Boils and sores that are painful and ugly, only for those that worshipped the AntiChrist and took the mark.

3Â*Â*Â*The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.
4Â*Â*Â*The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.
5Â*Â*Â*Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged;
6Â*Â*Â*for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."


These plagues will affect the whole world, but is aimed specifically at those who martyr God's servants. It specifically points out that you will reap what you sow. If you plant death and bloodshed you will get death and bloodshed when all is said and done.

8Â*Â*Â*The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire.
9Â*Â*Â*They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify Him.


People will be so unwilling to accept that God is God that they, even in the face of all that is going on, will be unwilling to say that they were wrong and that God is who He says He is. But, they will acknowledge that God is responsible for the plagues, and will curse him for them. A strange mixture to say the least.

10Â*Â*Â*The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony
11Â*Â*Â*and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


The kingdom of the AntiChrist will be the earth, and the darkness will be so great that nothing will likely be able to break it. Not a light bulb, not the sun, not a candle. Likely it will be like the plague in Egypt where it was so dark it could be felt. And still people will refuse to acknowledge God.

12Â*Â*Â*The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.

This is leading up to the battle of Armageddon. The last battle between God and Satan. Spoiler, Satan loses.

13Â*Â*Â*Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14Â*Â*Â*They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15Â*Â*Â*"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
16Â*Â*Â*Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


The Evil spirits can be literally translated to unclean spirits which is the phrase used to describe demons throughout the bible. This seems to imply that demons will influence and possibly posess the rulers of the world and cause them to come to the battle of Armageddon to oppose God with them. The battle never happens however. It is ended by God with the next bowl. Sort of anticlimactic, but a good indicator of God's power.

17Â*Â*Â*The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
18Â*Â*Â*Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.
19Â*Â*Â*The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
20Â*Â*Â*Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.
21Â*Â*Â*From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.


In other words, God simply spoke and the world was laid to waste. A great earthquake, larger than any before, likely 10+ on the richter (sp?) scale. Every city collapsed, all of them. Hailstones of 100+ lbs fell from the sky crushing any they hit. And still they cursed God. This appears to end what will happen on earth. After that there is the judgment. But that is another topic altogether.

Let me close with this final statement. I started this thread because I was hearing a lot of people making claims that they think we are in the last days right now with all that is going on in the middle east, how technology is progressing, the Formation of the EU, and so on. This was a thread to find out what everyone here thought about how it would end. It was not to say that any of this is happening now, nor was it to say that i know when it will begin and how long it will be. It is my interpretation of a part of scripture that God never intended for anyone, not even John who wrote it, to know the time or the day.

It is something that interests me in passing and I do not spend my days brooding over it, and neither should any. We should spend our days living as if the next day will be our last, and as if Jesus were physically here with us now. I hope the thread at least entertained you if nothing more. If you have any comments you would like to make feel free. Do not expect me to remain silent if they need a response. I will respond to any that request it, or by their phrasing demand it. That is not a challenge, just a comment.

God bless all of you, truly. I have enjoyed this thread, and even if we disagree on many things I really enjoy speaking with all of you. Thank you!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #129 of 140
Hooray. It's over.
post #130 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>Hooray. It's over.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Now, was that so bad?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #131 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Noah, remember the thesis: the closer you are to god, the more your being operates on instinct and less on rational thought.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I do not think that the thesis comes to the conclusion you are drawing. In the bible we are called to be gentle as a lamb and cunning as a serpent. There are parts where you could say that we are to be instinctive with God. This however does not come at the sacrifice of higher thought, or rationality.

[quote]<strong>I also think you are confusing two issues into one. I will argue that you CAN still have free will/choice to some degree without having to display higher rational capabilities such as humans are capable of. Thus almost any creature CAN question gods will in almost the same way as we can, in that it has the capacity for limited free choice. We might not be able to discern, in some instances, rational patterns in their choices, but they are there. (Thats the premise behind science anyway). Even a creature as lowly as the amoeba makes rational choices in its basic file processes.<hr></blockquote></strong>

Rational choices? Or base instinct for survival? Hard to prove either way.

[quote]<strong>My argument is not that you lose free choice completely (and thus the ability to question god) as you move closer to god, but rather is that you lose your higher rational capacities, and the capacity to make supra rational choices or irrational choices. And thats something Im not sure I want to loose.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why would you have to lose this? Would you say in your speaking with me that you detect any loss of higher rational capacities? How about in your reading of the Wisdom of Solomon? A man who was very close to God, and yet one of the wisest men ever recorded.

The fear that most have when they hear Christianity is that they would have to give up something, something that they cannot afford to lose or are unwilling to lose. Your rational thoughts are what you are afraid you will lose. If God did not want you to have rational thought and function, why whould he give them to you to begin with. Why not just strip that part of your brain and still give you free choice, thus accomplishing the purpose of making it easier for you to accept him? That is just not how it works.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #132 of 140
quote
If God did not want you to have rational thought and function, why whould he give them to you to begin with. Why not just strip that part of your brain and still give you free choice, thus accomplishing the purpose of making it easier for you to accept him? That is just not how it works.


Because God does not have this capacity.

God is a system of thought created by men. God doesnt have any more power than the power that men ascribes to him/her. I choose not to ascribe him/her any power(s), and therefore the point is mute.

Those that do ascribe to this concept, for whatever reason, have to live with the contradictions inherent within this particular system of thought.

If you want an ethical contradiction, Ill refer you, not to king Solomon, but to his father king David. The whole sordid affair with Bat-Sheva and the murder of her husband, should be enough. But unfortunately, these kind of examples are quite numerous in all 3 of the Semitic religions.

mika.

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #133 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>quote
If God did not want you to have rational thought and function, why whould he give them to you to begin with. Why not just strip that part of your brain and still give you free choice, thus accomplishing the purpose of making it easier for you to accept him? That is just not how it works.


Because God does not have this capacity.

God is a system of thought created by men. God doesnt have any more power than the power that men ascribes to him/her. I choose not to ascribe him/her any power(s), and therefore the point is mute.

Those that do ascribe to this concept, for whatever reason, have to live with the contradictions inherent within this particular system of thought.
[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

And let us say...Amen.

The point is quite moot. *wink*

[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
post #134 of 140
Seems like Jesus is more human because He lived as human.

That why Christianity that based on Christ is great. While other who based on the rigid god or Paul teachings are in so much trouble living with others in peace.

But I have to tone down my cynicism because some of the Christians are beginning to see that their "works" should extend to those who are in need instead of such paying lip services to the word "compassion".

Let see what they will do.

With that said. I still have a lot of problem with the "preaching" type of any religion.
post #135 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Because God does not have this capacity.

God is a system of thought created by men. God doesnt have any more power than the power that men ascribes to him/her. I choose not to ascribe him/her any power(s), and therefore the point is mute.

Those that do ascribe to this concept, for whatever reason, have to live with the contradictions inherent within this particular system of thought. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, so for you God is not God. He is simply made up and has no real power or purpose except that which is created by man to keep power and morality in place?

[quote]<strong>If you want an ethical contradiction, Ill refer you, not to king Solomon, but to his father king David. The whole sordid affair with Bat-Sheva and the murder of her husband, should be enough. But unfortunately, these kind of examples are quite numerous in all 3 of the Semitic religions.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good point. However David was severely punished for his misdeeds. In fact if you follow it to the ultimate conclusion, all of Israel suffered for their kings mistakes. But yes, he made some very poor choices, some evil choices, and in the end all of his prayers and saying sorry were good for was saving his life, he lost his son, his wife, and ultimately his throne.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #136 of 140
quote:
Ok, so for you God is not God. He is simply made up and has no real power or purpose except that which is created by man to keep power and morality in place?

To me the ethereal god of Israel is no more real than the stone status the Greeks and other nations worshiped at that time. The concept of the god of Israel might have been more developed intellectually than the others, being more of an abstract idea, but that doesnt make this god any more real than the others.

quote:
Good point. However David was severely punished for his misdeeds. In fact if you follow it to the ultimate conclusion, all of Israel suffered for their kings mistakes. But yes, he made some very poor choices, some evil choices, and in the end all of his prayers and saying sorry were good for was saving his life, he lost his son, his wife, and ultimately his throne.

Really?!? How was king David punished?

And why should anyone, anyone, be punished for king Davids misdeeds other than king David? What kind of moral or ethical standard is that?!?

How would you like it if I put you on death roll because of the misdeeds your father committed? Or how about I condemned your whole family, or better yet, your whole nation, to unspeakable horrors because of the misdeeds of one individual member. Dont you think that kind of thinking is kind of silly?

mika.

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #137 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>quote:

To me the ethereal god of Israel is no more real than the stone status the Greeks and other nations worshiped at that time. The concept of the god of Israel might have been more developed intellectually than the others, being more of an abstract idea, but that doesnt make this god any more real than the others.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why does that sound awfully familiar? Oh yeah, that's what I said all along.

And let us say, Amen.
post #138 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>To me the ethereal god of Israel is no more real than the stone status the Greeks and other nations worshiped at that time. The concept of the god of Israel might have been more developed intellectually than the others, being more of an abstract idea, but that doesnt make this god any more real than the others.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, so question answered.

[quote]<strong>Really?!? How was king David punished?

And why should anyone, anyone, be punished for king Davids misdeeds other than king David? What kind of moral or ethical standard is that?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately that was the way it was done back then. King David loved his country very much. So in that respect it seems to me that since God had set his sights on not killing David that the punsihment had to fit the crime. A death for a death. The death ended up being the result of the first crime, Bathsheebas son born to David that he killed her husband over. You do not think that David could care less about that? Read the passage in 2 Samuel. Then the next punishment took his wife through his own son later on. She did not die, but shamed him and her publicly. Not to mention how his other children shamed him intheir horrible deeds. All these were connected. All started by his own evil act.

[quote]<strong>How would you like it if I put you on death roll because of the misdeeds your father committed? Or how about I condemned your whole family, or better yet, your whole nation, to unspeakable horrors because of the misdeeds of one individual member. Dont you think that kind of thinking is kind of silly?

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not silly at all, for then. For now it would be outrageous. The nation was punished because of the acts of it leader. That was how it was handled then. Things have changed now so that the rules are different for who is punished. It is written in the bible that the son will no longer be punished for the sins of the father. However, when David was king the son to the third generation was held accountable for the sins of the father.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #139 of 140
Noah, thats the problem with this kind of a system, where authority stems directly from god. There is no recourse for reform. Things are set in stone, (literally) and theres no way to change them through rational discourse. If you try, you are labeled a heretic. After all, God cant be wrong or he wouldnt be God, so the logic goes.

So what might have been considered as modern and enlightened back then is no longer so. And today it would be considered as backwards and barbaric. Just look at what's goes on in the Islamic world. A religion that was once considered the beckon of enlightenment is now shown to be the most repressive and aggressive system of thinking in our modern times. Where Communism and Fascism have crumbled, Islam still thrives. Due in large part to the fact that its followers claim authority from God for the things they do. And how can you argue with that?

But Islamicists are not the only ones we can site as an example. Jewish and Christians leaders have done their fair share too. The only difference is that our societies have had a chance to evolve past these barbarisms. Whereas Islam, being a fairly new comer has not.

mika.

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #140 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Noah, thats the problem with this kind of a system, where authority stems directly from god. There is no recourse for reform. Things are set in stone, (literally) and theres no way to change them through rational discourse. If you try, you are labeled a heretic. After all, God cant be wrong or he wouldnt be God, so the logic goes.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's called good marketing. The businessmen who designed this product (that has hurt more lives than tobacco companies) figured out a great way to get people hooked and prevent them from switching brands.
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