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Religious Thread: BEWARE! ;) (Discussion on end times) - Page 3

post #81 of 140
Thread Starter 
For those who feel that they know who God is and what he stands for and still think he is an evil God I have a long post for you.

Here is one statement about God that I agree with.

This is a definition from Eastons Bible Dictionary:

[quote]<strong>God - (A.S. and Dutch God; Dan. Gud; Ger. Gott), the name of the Divine Being. It is the rendering (1) of the Hebrew 'El, from a word meaning to be strong; (2) of 'Eloah_, plural _'Elohim. The singular form, Eloah, is used only in poetry. The plural form is more commonly used in all parts of the Bible, The Hebrew word Jehovah (q.v.), the only other word generally employed to denote the Supreme Being, is uniformly rendered in the Authorized Version by "LORD," printed in small capitals. The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Ps. 14:1).

The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of the being of God are:

(1.) The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.

(2.) The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are,

(a) The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.

(b) The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.

(c) The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that "verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth."

The attributes of God are set forth in order by Moses in Ex. 34:6,7. (see also Deut. 6:4; 10:17; Num. 16:22; Ex. 15:11; 33:19; Isa. 44:6; Hab. 3:6; Ps. 102:26; Job 34:12.) They are also systematically classified in Rev. 5:12 and 7:12.

God's attributes are spoken of by some as absolute, i.e., such as belong to his essence as Jehovah, Jah, etc.; and relative, i.e., such as are ascribed to him with relation to his creatures. Others distinguish them into communicable, i.e., those which can be imparted in degree to his creatures: goodness, holiness, wisdom, etc.; and incommunicable, which cannot be so imparted: independence, immutability, immensity, and eternity. They are by some also divided into natural attributes, eternity, immensity, etc.; and moral, holiness, goodness, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Also, a study I have read on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant sheds some light on this issue of a loving God vs. an evil god. All of my sources come from the bible as the bible is the revelation of God's self to His people. You cannot give me any other book where this is done that is not based on the bible, thus it has to be the authoritative source.

In Hebrews 8 you read:

1Â*Â*Â*The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
2Â*Â*Â*and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
3Â*Â*Â*Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.
4Â*Â*Â*If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
5Â*Â*Â*They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
6Â*Â*Â*But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7Â*Â*Â*For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8Â*Â*Â*But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9Â*Â*Â*It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10Â*Â*Â*This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11Â*Â*Â*No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
12Â*Â*Â*For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
13Â*Â*Â*By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


So you already see that the old covenant that was there has been replaced with a new covenant. The old covenant had many different aspects. Under this old covenant, salvation and a right relationship with God came through a faith expressed by obedience to His law and its sacrificial system. The sacrifices in the OT had 3 main purposes:
  • To teach God's people the gravity of sin. Sin separated sinners from a holy God, and they could be reconciled to God and find forgiveness only through the shedding of blood. [This was covered in my previous posts quite extensively]
  • They provided a way for Israel to come to God through faith, obedience, and love.
  • They pointed to or foreshadowed Christ's perfect sacrifice for the sins of the human race.

Jeremiah prophesied that at some time in the future God would make a new covenant, a better one, with is people. (Jeremiah 31:31-34) It is better than the old covenant because it completely forgives the sins of the repentant, makes them children of God, gives them a new heart and nature (spiritually) so they can spontaneously love and obey God, brings them into an intimate personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the Father, and provides a greater experience in the Holy Spirit.

(MORE TO COME)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #82 of 140
[quote]God - (A.S. and Dutch God; Dan. Gud; Ger. Gott), the name of the Divine Being. It is the rendering (1) of the Hebrew 'El, from a word meaning to be strong; (2) of 'Eloah_, plural _'Elohim <hr></blockquote>

There are numerous references to "Elohim" throughout the O.T. That implies a plurality, ie GodS, despite the monotheistic basis of Moses' teachings, and the monotheistic basis of it's offshoots in modern Judaism and Christianity.

I have recently read biblical scholar/detective Zacharia Sitchin's series of books and he has some interesting takes on the whole history of that region during those times. Some of the evidence he cites points to the possibility of early civilizations with technology. (He's not talking about "ancient astronauts" like the discredited Erich von Daniken). For two obvious examples amongst many, firstly the Sodom and Gomorrah episode might have been some variety of nuclear device considering the anomalous radiation readings in the area by the Dead Sea (which is where S and G were supposed to have been located). Secondly in Egypt, the geological as opposed to archaeologicalfindings by John West and others have put the age of the Sphinx and other monuments and artifacts in the area as maybe more than 10000 years instead of 4500 according to classic Egyptology.

Perhaps the references to "God/s" in the stories of the ancient Israelites were referring to an (oppressive) society with more advanced technological capabilities. Imagine someone from 1850 in Victorian times with horses and carts, no running water, and suddenly being transported into the modern age with spacecraft, jet fighters, plastic, radio and the internet etc...it would be looked as "magic" or he work of "God/s". 150 years to come so far technically is a very small timeslice in comparison to the thousands of years involved in the ancient history of the Middle East. Maybe the 'burning bush', the visions of Ezekiel, the destruction at Sodom and Gomorrah and other unexplained incidents of the O.T. were not so much "Gods'" deeds (whatever that means) but something far more mundane and human in origin, hence the plural references to Elohim instead of Eloah.

That line may sound wacky to some....and has a 'laugh factor' that has alienates less courageous researchers ....but is it any more wacky than what the teachings of conventional Judeo-Christian thought which credits everything to the "work of God/s"....whatever God/s may be?

I just don't get the "anthropomorphization" and "genderization" of "God/s"...which is endemic in Christian teaching. But perhaps that also points to the human, rather than deific origin of the OT stories.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
Reply
post #83 of 140
Thread Starter 
The following is what remains of my previous post... As Jesus is the one who instituted the new covenant in it you find an agreement, a promise, last will and testament, and a statement of intention to bestow divine grace and blessing on those who respond to God in obedient faith. Specifically, it is a covenant of promise for those who through faith accept Christ as God's son, receive His promises, and commit themselves personally to him and to obligations of the new covenant.

Let's pause there for a second and look. In many of my previous posts similar things were said. Let's recap. Who is called to God? Everyone. Who is asked to follow God in obedience. Everyone. Who is forced to do so? Nobody. This is all based on free will, not divine arm twisting. So far, what is not gotten by anyone is not gotten through a conscious decision not to accept that thing. No evil so far, unless holding a personal accountable for their own free decisions is evil. Let's continue.

Jesus Christ's position as mediator of the new covenant is based on his sacrificial death. The promises and obligations of this new covenant are embodied in the entire New Testament. Its purpose is to save from guilt and condemnation all those who believe in Christ and commit their lives to the truths and obligations of his covenant, and to form then into a people who are God's very own.

Jesus' sacrifice is a better one than the sacrifice of the old covenant because it was a voluntary ond obedient sacrifice of a righteous person (Jesus Christ) rather than the involuntary sacrifice of an animal. Jesus' sacrifice and fulfillment of God's will were perfect and thus opened the way for complete forgiveness, reconciliation, and sanctification.

The new covenant can be called teh new covenant of the Spirit, for it is the Holy Spirit who ministers life and power to those who accept God's covenant. All who participate in the new covenant through Jesus Christ receive its blessings and salvation only as they persevere in faith and obedience. The faithless (those who accept it then turn away from it and reject it later) are excluded from its blessings.

With the coming of the new covenant through Christ, the old covenant became obsolete. In doing so, however, the new covenant does not render the entire old testament obsolete, but only the Mosaic (remember Moses?) covenant whereby salvation was gained by obedience to the law and its sacrificial system. The Old testament is not obsolete; much of its Revelation points toward Christ and, as God's inspired Word, is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.
[*]Most of this text is from the Full Life Study Bible NIV. The article is called "The old covenant and the new covenant". I have edited some of it slightly to reduce the theological jargon (I could not eliminate it completely, sorry). I have also taken time and interspersed my own opinions into portions of the text.

This (the covenant and Atonement) was one major point that was being used to show how God is evil. Where is the evil here? An answer of "because" will not do, you set the rules now live by them. Show me what parts are evil to you. I will do my best to answer them if the need any answers or clarification that I can offer. Otherwise, I am dropping this point and moving on with the stated intent of the thread. Thanks!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #84 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>

There are numerous references to "Elohim" throughout the O.T. That implies a plurality, ie GodS, despite the monotheistic basis of Moses' teachings, and the monotheistic basis of it's offshoots in modern Judaism and Christianity.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My understanding of the Hebrew language is that the use of the plural form of a word does not necessarily mean that there is more than one of the said word, although it could. Quite often it is used to emphasize the importance of the word. God would be a very important being thus the use of plural to emphasize that fact.

It is clearly stated that there is only One God throughout the Bible. The only divergence is not really, and that is when you consider the Holy Trinity, or the three in one concept.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #85 of 140
Thread Starter 
Some backup for this thought found here: <a href="http://www.netwaysglobal.com/hebrew/intro.html" target="_blank">http://www.netwaysglobal.com/hebrew/intro.html</a>

[quote]By examining the meaning of the word "Elohim" you will understand the use of the words "we", "they", and "us" in so many places in Genesis and in particular during the Creation and Garden stories as they pertain to Deity.Â* All Hebrew words ending in "im" or "eem" (Yodh-Mem)Â*are PLURAL.Â* "Elohim" literally refers to "Gods" or as we understand it, the "Godhead" consisting of the Father (sometimes referred to as just "Elohim" as the plural ending CAN denote a magnification of a singular meaning the "Almighty God"), the Son or "Jehovah Elohim" who is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit or "Rauch Elohim".Â* You will also notice that shortly after the fall of Adam () God is rarely ever referred to as just "Elohim", but, instead man begins dealing explicitly with the member of the Godhead known by the name-title "Jehovah"<hr></blockquote>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #86 of 140
Thread Starter 
And now for your regularly scheduled thread:

With the information SJO has presented she may have unwittingly changed one important point of this thread. The rapture point.

Sure she meant to at least make me think, but I doubt she thought that I would actually change my mind even slightly. Well, the link she posted has put enough doubt in my mind about my previous stance that I will add one more possibility to the rapture point and for now I will plant my flag there.

The rapture is none of what was previously posted. The refrence to meeting Jesus in the air and of one being left behind is not of a physical sense, but of a spiritual sense. Read the link from a previous post for the full story. We may have the issue of a pretty big mis-translation of the origional texts in this case. I am not positive, as it has been translated many times this way, but the evidence put forth is very compelling. Worth a read. <a href="http://www.ricter.com/wordline/rapture.htm" target="_blank">Link for those too lazy to look for it. </a>

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #87 of 140
Thread Starter 
The next step in this thread speaks of a terrible time for mankind that is to come. This time is well known as the Tribulation. For the most part I look at the tribulation as one big event, but recently I have seen it split into two events. The Tribulation and The Great Tribulation. Since the post would be very long if I put all the events that are supposed to happen in one big post I will split it this way.

First of all let me begin with a big disclaimer so there is no doubt in anyones mind here. I do not know when this will happen, if the order is correct, whther my timeline is absolutely correct, and whether or not any here will live to see it. The tribulation will be horrible, and there will be a lot of people dying and many will have great sorrow. I will not be interspersing sad faces throughout to emphasize the point as it should be unneccesary. If the event seems to you to be terrible, it likely will seem that way to all reading. That being said, here are the events as laid out. The list may not go in order and there will be some skipping around but I will try to keep it clear.

2 Thessalonians has a letter from Paul to the Thessalonian church. He covers what will be seen to make us sure that the Tribulation has begun. Chapter 2 goes into this point directly. <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2THES+2&language=english&version=NIV " target="_blank">Full text here.</a>

The main points seem to say that three significant events will occur that will make people know with some certainly that the Tribulation is about to begin.
  • People who had previously turned to Jesus and accepted him will begin to turn away and reject the teachings they previously believed in. This will happen on a very large scale and many will be decieved by "The man of lawlessness" or the Antichrist because of this.
  • God will lift his restraint against evil. (vs 6-8) This is where things will really start to go sour.
  • The Antichrist will be reavealed and many will believe that he is the Messiah due to miracles he will be able to perform.

There will also be less religious things that have to happen before the Tribulation can begin.
  • Israel will become a state again. (already happened)
  • They will become a "stubling block" to the entire world. (Read, a big pain that everyone wishes would just go away, like a stone that is always causing you to trip but you cannot seem to get rid of.)
  • A 7 year peace treaty will be signed guranteeing peace to Israel in exchange for land and other concessions.
  • The temple will be rebuilt on its origional site.
  • At some point Isreael will have foreign troops guarding her from her enemies.

These events may happen before The Tribulation, or during it.

The Tribulation is described in Revelation through the picture of Seals, Trumpets, Plagues and Bowls. I will get into that in my next post.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #88 of 140
Thread Starter 
The first four seals (Revelation 6:1-8) will be opened and this is where the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse originated. The first seal releases the White Horse which represents conquest. Some feel that this horse represents the antichrist, and I am not sure if this is the case or not. Whatever the case may be, There will be a major conquest that happens, and it will likely occur without a major war as the next Seal (Horse) is the one that unleashes war.

The second seal releases the Red Horse. This horse represents War and was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men kill one another. There will be a marked increase in wars and violent death not necessarily involved in war as well (murder for example).

The third seal releases the Black Horse. This horse represents a terrible time of famine. Hunger will be widespread and luxury items will become scarce as the basic necessities of life will become very expensive.

The fourth seal releases the Pale or White Horse. This one they actually named the rider as Death and said that Hades followed close behind. The bible specifically states that this time 1/4 of the earth was put under its power to "kill by the sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." This seems to say that the previous famines and such will intensify greatly at this time and as a result a full quarter of the worlds population will be wiped out.

The fifth seal reveals something that we will not notice on earth. It shows the martyrs that were killed for the Word of God. It depicts the religious martyrs killed for their faith and them being killed for their faith during this time. What I get from this is that you will see a surge of persection of "true Christians" during this time frame and many will be killed for their beliefs. Possibly because they will be held responsible for the terrible things that are heppening when people figure out that what is going on follows existing biblical prophecy.

I will post the verse for the sixth seal as it is stated quite plainly what will happen:

Revelation 6:12-14
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.


What I get from this can be seen many ways. Either just as it is stated, a supernatural judgement includinga huge earthquake, cosmic upheaval, and darkness and terror for those still alive on earth. Or you can look at it in modern day equivalents, possibly atomic war. You can get this image with the greath eartquake (bombs exploding causing the earth to shake heavily), the sun turning black (from the dust turned up by all the bombs going off), the moon turning blood red (through the same effect), the stars falling (could be ICBMs or MIRVs falling to earth), the sky receding like a scroll rolling up (mushroom clouds?), and mountains and islands removed from their place (H-Bombs have already been shown capable of completly obliterating entire islands so that nothing is left). Either way it will be terrible, and the bible states that:

Revelation 6:15-17

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


I am undecided which I believe. God has been shown throughout the bible as using nations to punish other nations. He could do so again if he wanted.

Then there is a pause where God marks his followers with his seal on their foreheads. I am not sure if this will be a visible mark, like in the Left Behind Series, or something that only the Spirit realm will see. It gives an exact number of 144,000 sealed, but I do not know if this signified anything more or if it is to be interpreted literally. Some feel that there will be 144,000 sealed and they will preach the Gospel during the remaining Tribulation.

When the seventh seal is opened it speak about heaven going silent for half of an hour. Some say this in recognition that things are about to get really bad, so they are silent in sadness and horror about what mankind is about to go through. And angel is depicted at this time as filling up a golden censer full of incense to offer along with the prayers of the saints on tha alter of God. The angel then casts the contents of the censer to the earth:

Revelation 8:5

5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the alter, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightening and an earthquake.

The seventh seal also initiates The seven trumpets which will be the topic of the next post...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #89 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>The first four seals (Revelation 6:1-8) will be opened and this is where the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse originated. The first seal releases the White Horse which represents conquest. Some feel that this horse represents the antichrist, and I am not sure if this is the case or not. Whatever the case may be, There will be a major conquest that happens, and it will likely occur without a major war as the next Seal (Horse) is the one that unleashes war.

The second seal releases the Red Horse. This horse represents War and was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men kill one another. There will be a marked increase in wars and violent death not necessarily involved in war as well (murder for example).

The third seal releases the Black Horse. This horse represents a terrible time of famine. Hunger will be widespread and luxury items will become scarce as the basic necessities of life will become very expensive.

The fourth seal releases the Pale or White Horse. This one they actually named the rider as Death and said that Hades followed close behind. The bible specifically states that this time 1/4 of the earth was put under its power to "kill by the sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." This seems to say that the previous famines and such will intensify greatly at this time and as a result a full quarter of the worlds population will be wiped out.

The fifth seal reveals something that we will not notice on earth. It shows the martyrs that were killed for the Word of God. It depicts the religious martyrs killed for their faith and them being killed for their faith during this time. What I get from this is that you will see a surge of persection of "true Christians" during this time frame and many will be killed for their beliefs. Possibly because they will be held responsible for the terrible things that are heppening when people figure out that what is going on follows existing biblical prophecy.

I will post the verse for the sixth seal as it is stated quite plainly what will happen:

Revelation 6:12-14
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.


What I get from this can be seen many ways. Either just as it is stated, a supernatural judgement includinga huge earthquake, cosmic upheaval, and darkness and terror for those still alive on earth. Or you can look at it in modern day equivalents, possibly atomic war. You can get this image with the greath eartquake (bombs exploding causing the earth to shake heavily), the sun turning black (from the dust turned up by all the bombs going off), the moon turning blood red (through the same effect), the stars falling (could be ICBMs or MIRVs falling to earth), the sky receding like a scroll rolling up (mushroom clouds?), and mountains and islands removed from their place (H-Bombs have already been shown capable of completly obliterating entire islands so that nothing is left). Either way it will be terrible, and the bible states that:

Revelation 6:15-17

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


I am undecided which I believe. God has been shown throughout the bible as using nations to punish other nations. He could do so again if he wanted.

Then there is a pause where God marks his followers with his seal on their foreheads. I am not sure if this will be a visible mark, like in the Left Behind Series, or something that only the Spirit realm will see. It gives an exact number of 144,000 sealed, but I do not know if this signified anything more or if it is to be interpreted literally. Some feel that there will be 144,000 sealed and they will preach the Gospel during the remaining Tribulation.

When the seventh seal is opened it speak about heaven going silent for half of an hour. Some say this in recognition that things are about to get really bad, so they are silent in sadness and horror about what mankind is about to go through. And angel is depicted at this time as filling up a golden censer full of incense to offer along with the prayers of the saints on tha alter of God. The angel then casts the contents of the censer to the earth:

Revelation 8:5

5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the alter, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightening and an earthquake.

The seventh seal also initiates The seven trumpets which will be the topic of the next post...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why are you quoting the bible? It's not a reliable source.

Why is the bible holy?

It's god's words.

How do we know it's god's words?

It's in the bible.

But why is the bible holy?

It's god's words.

But how do we know it's god's words?

It's in the bible.

Sorry, it's a circular argument. It doesn't work. It would be analogous to completly making up a research paper and the only thing in your works cited list is that very research paper. It doesn't work.
post #90 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

Why are you quoting the bible? It's not a reliable source.

Why is the bible holy?

It's god's words.

How do we know it's god's words?

It's in the bible.

But why is the bible holy?

It's god's words.

But how do we know it's god's words?

It's in the bible.

Sorry, it's a circular argument. It doesn't work. It would be analogous to completly making up a research paper and the only thing in your works cited list is that very research paper. It doesn't work.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't like it, don't read it. Or even better, post your own input to the thread. I have already stated that my portion of the thread will come from the bibles perspective. Go ahead and give yours if you have one. If you have none, then just read on or go away. It doesn't hurt my feelings either way. Have a nice day!
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #91 of 140
The world has supposedly been coming to an end for several thousand years now. All of the so called end time references have been around as long as mankind..famine, war, poverty etc. this is not new here folks. It is just more dominate now due to the many ways we have to exchange info..ie internet, newprint, magazines, tv etc.
The wars in the middle east are definetly not new!
This pissing match has been going on long before any of us here today so accept it. We will be saying a hundred years from now (well I won't be here) that the end is near..kind of a vicious cycle that may long continue.
"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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"Blessed is the rebel..for without him there would be no progress"
Hugh Hefner
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post #92 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Robertp:
<strong>The world has supposedly been coming to an end for several thousand years now. All of the so called end time references have been around as long as mankind..famine, war, poverty etc. this is not new here folks. It is just more dominate now due to the many ways we have to exchange info..ie internet, newprint, magazines, tv etc.
The wars in the middle east are definetly not new!
This pissing match has been going on long before any of us here today so accept it. We will be saying a hundred years from now (well I won't be here) that the end is near..kind of a vicious cycle that may long continue.</strong><hr></blockquote>

RobertP, near the beginning of this thread I addressed this view pretty clearly.

[quote]<strong>In the last days there will be a few trends that will not be very obvious as they build up slowly over time. This is why I believe that everyone believes they are in the last days for years and years. These trends have, however, been getting steadily worse and I feel that eventually they will culminate in the beginning of the end.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sure, you say that war and fmaine and such have been around a long time, and the only reason we know more about it is because we are in the information age. However, I think that part of this knowlege and such is that sometimes perception is reality. Also, knowing that a war is occuring in the Middle East has more effect now than it did before due to all the information received about it through media outlets.

I think that when a small skirmish starts the fact that everyone can know about it right away could cause there to be a larger war to follow much moreso now than before. Sure there are many checks in place to try and prevent this, but sometimes this just does not work. Besides, not all the events are generic, some you can look to and say, that can only happen one way, like the re-emergence of Israel as a nation for one. When they start to rebuild the temple that will be another one. When they sign a 7 year peace treaty with land for security, that will be another one. The other parts mixed in will only make it more clear what is going on when viewed in context.

And to restate once more, I have no new insite or vision regarding this, I just thought it would make an interesting discussion where people could talk it over in a civil manner and post their views and beliefs. This could be years and years from now, or it could be set in motion next week. God only knows, and he isn't telling anyone.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #93 of 140
Thread Starter 
By this time in the Tribulation things have begun to really get bad. There has been a terrible amount of death and destruction and it is not over yet. This begins the time of the seven trumpet judgments. Strap yourselves in, it will be a bumpy, and terrible, ride.

Revelation 8

7Â*Â*Â*The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

This trumpet basically chars the earth horribly. 1/3 of the trees, 1/3 of the earth and all the grass, wiped out. If this happens literally it could look just like fire and brimstone that everyone claims to hear about from the pulpit (I actually never have, must attend the wrong churches ).

Revelation 8

8Â*Â*Â*The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood,
9Â*Â*Â*a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.


This looks like a meteor strike of some kind. I doubt this one will be able to be missed by anyone.

Revelation 8

10Â*Â*Â*The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--
11Â*Â*Â*the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.


So we now have something that happens to the worlds water supply where 1/3 of all the water turns bitter and many die from drinking it. As an interesting sidenote, the name Chernobyl in Russian is the same as WormWood. Does this have any impact on this passage, or is it just coincidence? I am not sure, but if you do a Google search on Chernobyl and wormwood together you will get a wide variety of hits that try to draw lines between them, or to show how they are not related at all. An interesting one to say the least, but I have more questions than answers. Moving on...

Revelation 8

12Â*Â*Â*The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

This could be any number of things, but it hints at a supernatural occurance, as 1/3 of the light frm the sun, moon and stars is simply just gone. Or, it could be a cloud of some kind that simply filters a third of the light, but this does not seem in line with what I am reading.

By this time it should be very clear to people that things are not right, and that this is not just a string of bad luck incidents. However as things move on it will be more and more clear that this is less of a natural disaster and more of a divine punishment. And many will become angry with God, even more so than they are today.

There are still three trumpets to go, but tis post is long enough and I am sure that some will have a replies to this one and some previous. Also, if you have not yet put in your opinion on events you see leading to the end of the world, go ahead! I have much more to go, and it only gets worse from here.

So far though it looks like some of your ideas are found in the biblical prophecies, at least in my interpretation of them. Meteor strikes, nuclear wars, possibly trying to use a nuclear device to fend off a second meteor unsuccessfully (Wormwood).
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #94 of 140
[quote] The world has supposedly been coming to an end for several thousand years now. All of the so called end time references have been around as long as mankind..famine, war, poverty etc. this is not new here folks. It is just more dominate now due to the many ways we have to exchange info..ie internet, newprint, magazines, tv etc.
The wars in the middle east are definetly not new!<hr></blockquote>

absolutely, in fact I read a very good book by the theologian Thomas JJ Altizer called Biblical Eschatology and Oreintal Mysticism (i think that was the title) that basically reads Christ's message as being the same form of eschatology as traditional prophetic Judiasm except that he believed that the end times were, like, three days from whenever he said anything, just around the bend . . . this accounts for his (Jesus' ) radical reading of judaism.

Anyway altizer, a presbitarian theologian, felt that he discerned a progression of time in relation to the eschaton (the final time) from far off with Danial to very close with John the baptist and to very very close; 'any minute now' with Jesus, and he felt that it was really meant to be seen (as with Buddhist mystical thought) as not some distant future event but a perpetual event in the present of the moment . . . (hence the whole rebirth motif in that song)
so he was trying to revitalize Christian thought by showing that it was not about some event in time but about the escchaton in the instant: in every instant. as with the blinding full/emptiness of Shunyata in Buddhism.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #95 of 140
Just to clarify a little.

Altizer, a theologian and priest, came to see that Christianity was founded on an understanding of the eschaton (ending event) that saw it coming in the next few days which did NOT happen. and he found that the real message was not of a linear-temporal form of future end time but one of immediacy: therefor he looked at what he called Oriental Mysticism (Buddhism) and saw in that a kind of understanding of the end time which was eternally present and continouos.

He felt that unless Christianity understood this and looked in the direction of such mysticism i would remain immature and unable to account for obviouse inconsistencies (the least of it of course)
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #96 of 140
Thread Starter 
When I last posted we were in the middle of the trumpet judgements. We now move on to Revelation 9 and the final trumpets. These are quite different than the other judgements as they are called the "3 woes". Special attention is paid to these three judgements and they all seem to be heavily spiritually oriented, rather than scientifically.

Here is the fifth trumpet listed out. I am considering doing the last 3 trumpets as separate posts as they are long and may require quite a bit of looking at and people can discuss them separately if they like. We'll see how long this post is and decide from there.

Revelation 9

1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.


As I said, this judgement does not seem to stem from the natural world overall. It is possible that the star that had fallen could be one of two different things, a fallen angel with the keys to the Abyss, and it is finally allowed to open the shaft letting out this judgement. Or you could interpret it as another large meteor strike that visciously opens the Abyss and thus you get the smoke and the sky being darkened and such.

Then it speaks of a mass of creatures of some kind coming out of the smoke of the Abyss. They are described at first as locusts maybe referring to their sheer numbers and physical size. But later on there is a more vivid description of them. In many books I have read these are seen as being demonic beings that are sent out to torture any non-beleivers, as they are instructed:

4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.


It also talks about how many will seek death in that time but will not find it. This has been described in some books as a time where God supernaturally does not allow any to die (like through suicide and such), so that they get the full force of the judgement against them. I do not know if I believe this or not. I actually doubt it for the most part. This time frame is specifically set to be five months. One of the few times in Revelation that the length of time is given specifically rather than in terms that could be interpreted one way or another.

I do not beleive these creatures are natural insects or animals due to the description given of them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces.
8 Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle.
10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.


So to pick out a few of the items listed.
  • The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. (horses wearing armour maybe?)
  • On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. (The crowns of gold and human faces on this body lead me to believe they are going to be demons)
  • They have long hair, and big, sharp, teeth. (womens hair, and lions teeth)
  • They had breastplates like breastplates of iron... (so they are shown as armored once more, so likely this points to the fact that they will be dificult to kill, if not impossible?)
  • the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle (likely this is due to the sheer number of them once again.)
  • They had tails and stings like scorpions. (Definately not sounding like a natural being here.)

And lastly:

11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.

Abaddon and Apollyon both mean destroyer as a rough translation. Another link pointing to them being less of a natural creature and more of a spiritual creature, demonic so to speak.

Anyone have a different interpretation of this particular passage? Heard anything different that you would like to toss in for the sake of conversation? I will let this part sit a while before moving on to the next trumpet.

{edit]fixed some major spelling flaws. <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #97 of 140
Hi Noah,

Well, the way I see religion is as just another system of thought. Different religions are based of different system of thought. But they all have some internal logic, and all try to "solve" a particular set of problems or questions. The success of the results varies depending on intellectual rigor invested.

Having a Jewish background, one thing that bothered me about that system of thought, is the role that angels play. Apparently, there is a hierarchy of angels. And the closer you are to god, the more your being operates on instinct and less on rational thought. This always struck me as very paradoxical and quite disturbing.

Noah, what do think about this? It does kinda tie into the end of time question, and how we will all end up...

mika.
post #98 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Hi Noah,

Well, the way I see religion is as just another system of thought. Different religions are based of different system of thought. But they all have some internal logic, and all try to "solve" a particular set of problems or questions. The success of the results varies depending on intellectual rigor invested.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Welcome mika! Thank you for visiting my thread, hope it makes you think like it does me.

I think that yes, different religions are based on different systems of thought. And I also agree that each religion in itself has the propensity to attempt to solve particular types of human issues in their own ways. And I also agree that the more you put into said religion, the more likley you are to get something out of it. Here is the part that always gets me into trouble though with the watchdogs on this board. If you invest in the wrong religion, you may find that what you got out of it was not what you intended or expected. I cannot say what religions are the right ones as per all the denominations and names and titles overall, but I have seen people so tied up in the whole religion angle and the title they put on themselves that theymiss the boat entirely as to what they are suppsoed to do in the religion they chose to follow. Surely there are those out there who agree with that?

[quote]<strong>Having a Jewish background, one thing that bothered me about that system of thought, is the role that angels play. Apparently, there is a hierarchy of angels. And the closer you are to god, the more your being operates on instinct and less on rational thought. This always struck me as very paradoxical and quite disturbing.

Noah, what do think about this? It does kinda tie into the end of time question, and how we will all end up...

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Being of a Jewish background are you orthodox? Maybe that is the wrong question, I am still not entirely sure if that matters to the next part of the question. Do you also read the New Testament as scripture? Or is it entirely the Old Testament we are speaking of?

I have seen what you are speaking of. And I do not know for sure that there is a problem or a paradox. I feel that the closer you are to God, the closer your instincts are to God's. There is definately a heirarchy of angels in my reading of the scriptures. And a classification, such as warrior angels with Michael being their leader and so on.

Can you give me any examples of where you see this happening? It would help me to see exactly where the question stems from and to better give my perspective.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #99 of 140
No. Im not religious at all. And my very rudimentary knowledge is confined to just the Old Testament. Religious trappings never appealed to me, so I never pursued any kind of religious education. Although I do believe (I guess this is the most appropriate term) that events described in the bible have strong historical validity. I know some people say you cannot yet prove this or that happened, and I take the tact that you can also not yet disprove that such and such happened. So I do subscribe to the notion the bible is somewhat autobiographical of the Jewish people at a particular period of time. And you can probably add the New Testament to that too.

Anyway, I asked the question because I wasnt sure how Christianity dealt with this question, but it seems from your answer that both share the same thoughts on this.

As I see it, there are many problems with this on many different levels. But lets for a start limit our discussion to one or two. I never had the opportunity to actually form a logical argument on this, so you youll have to forgive me if some of what I say seems cryptic. My initial objection(s) to this issue was more visceral than anything else. Like I said, I never gave this much thought, being that Im not particularly attracted to that model of thinking to begin with.

Ok. So here is the first argument. Satan, as we know was a fallen angel. As I understand it, in Jewish thought, Satan is not an evil personality per say, but rather acts as a provocateur or a questioner or a kind of prosecutor that questions God. This is essentially what human beings are. This is really what differentiates us from the amoeba. Yet on the scale described, the amoeba is a great deal closer to God than humans are. In fact, in our rational capacity we are as far away from God, as any of Gods creations (that I am aware of). Given this logic, Im not sure I want to come any closer to God than I am right now. In fact, I much more closely identify and sympathize with Satan than I do with God.

mika.
post #100 of 140
Mika, I woder if you have read any Harold Bloom. He is a litereary critic that calls himself a Jewish Gnostic. He writes about nothing but Shakespeare, Freud and the Hebrew Bible (after years and years of writing abuot all sorts of other literature) he chose those three areas of study because they "encompass teh most consciosness". he has also written a book on angelology and one on "the American Religion" which is an anaolysis of the over-all American tendency towards self-reliance in religion wh ich he likens to a kind of wild gnosticism.

also, just a note: if you use the terms "New Atestement" and "Old Testement" it implies that the new is better and a replacement for the old. That is why many thoughtfull writers (such as Bloom) use the terms Hebrew Bible and Christian gospels.

[quote] If you invest in the wrong religion, you may find that what you got out of it was not what you intended or expected.<hr></blockquote>

I think this is well said NoahJ, and is something that everyone should reflect upon. After all, as I said in a previose post (all of which have been ignored) the question posed by religion is that of the most imortant importance . . . so, be productive and reflective while asking that question.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #101 of 140
As far as the locust creatures: think about how A-10 are adorned: they pretty much fit the description&gt; think aircraft, or hellicopters.

"Lord of the air" think George Bush

Or better, out of the smoke comes the locusts prompted by a falling star:

missile fire from underground tubes (abyss) responding to a previouse strike, and think biohazard that fails to kill. speculatin some more.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #102 of 140
[quote] The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

. . .
By this time it should be very clear to people that things are not right <hr></blockquote>

do you think it would be just getting clear


also NoahJ: I wonder where you were able to read these signs that you posted:
[quote]
*\tIsrael will become a state again. (already happened)
*\tThey will become a "stubling block" to the entire world. (Read, a big pain that everyone wishes would just go away, like a stone that is always causing you to trip but you cannot seem to get rid of.)
*\tA 7 year peace treaty will be signed guranteeing peace to Israel in exchange for land and other concessions.
*\tThe temple will be rebuilt on its origional site.
*\tAt some point Isreael will have foreign troops guarding her from her enemies. <hr></blockquote>

maybe you could post a reference.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #103 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>do you think it would be just getting clear<hr></blockquote></strong>

I bet there will be those that deny it as it is going on. But it will be very hard to deny.
[quote]<strong>maybe you could post a reference.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Israel As A Stumbling Block:

Zechariah 12
1Â*Â*Â*This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:
2Â*Â*Â*"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.
3Â*Â*Â*On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.
4Â*Â*Â*On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the LORD. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations.


A 7 year peace treaty will be signed guaranteeing peace to Israel in exchange for land and other concessions.

and

The temple will be rebuilt on its origional site.

Daniel 9 (the angel Gabriel is speaking)
23Â*Â*Â*As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24Â*Â*Â*"Seventy `sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
25Â*Â*Â*"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven `sevens,' and sixty-two `sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
26Â*Â*Â*After the sixty-two `sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27Â*Â*Â*He will confirm a covenant with many for one `seven.' In the middle of the `seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him


At some point Isreael will have foreign troops guarding her from her enemies.

Working on this one, they are all over the place.


One site on the web that I found while I was doing a quick search for what others have written is <a href="http://www.jelm.net/endtimes1c.html" target="_blank">This one.</a> Very interesting. I do not necessarily agree with all of it, but it matches much of what I have said.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #104 of 140
of course noah, I don't believe this, but it makes for very interesting reading. Sadly I can't contribute to this thread, as its all gone way over the head of this non-believer, but Im trying to read your posts with an open mind and draw some conclusions. Its a shame that most of the bible, (at least, what you're quoting) was written in such a way that its taken over 2000 years of reading to come up with answers that no one can agree on entirely or understand completely.

Q. what do you think will happen to all the people who have already died before these events take place?

I think that whoever wrote the bible (And I don't necessassarily *!spelling* think it was by the people whose names appear in it ie Mark, matthew etc) must have had an untold understanding of the psychology of humans. Recently I read a large 'middle_of_the_road' psychology book, and would like to say that the methods of 'the big sell' in the bible, like the ones you quoted have been scientifically proven as very efficient ways of converting and coercing oppinion. Though im finding it hard to express exactly what i mean.

Q. Who actually wrote the Bible? Especially the old testament? I know some parts come from Mark etc. but what about the rest? Who actually told the 'writer' of these events? And as christianity has only existed for apx 2000 years, how do we know that events such as genesis, the bad_apple thing and noah-and-the-ark took place, and how do we verify their validity? Who wrote the 'end-bits' you've been describing, and how and where did they get this information from?

Anyway, thanks for the posts, I, if no-one else am prepared to listen openmindedly, and respect for continuing when 'repeatedly bashed'.

'marc the antichrist'
post #105 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by MarcUK:
<strong>of course noah, I don't believe this, but it makes for very interesting reading. Sadly I can't contribute to this thread, as its all gone way over the head of this non-believer, but Im trying to read your posts with an open mind and draw some conclusions. Its a shame that most of the bible, (at least, what you're quoting) was written in such a way that its taken over 2000 years of reading to come up with answers that no one can agree on entirely or understand completely.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There are many points in the bible that are agreed upon overall. However, and I should have stated this at the beginning of this thread, God never intended for us to know beyond a shadow of a doubt when the end of the world was coming and what all of the events in precise order would be. I believe he gave us enough information so that we could see that we were in the end times and be vaguely aware of what was going to happen next. This could be to serve two purposes. Keeps the church on its toes (no man knows that hour or the day), and when it does happen gives non-believers a pre-existing text to look at that has been around for thousands of years and to see that it was indeed true and not just made up fairytales. Of course, not being God, I am not fully aware of the whole purpose behind it.

[quote]<strong>Q. what do you think will happen to all the people who have already died before these events take place?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not sure which events you mean? The tribulation? Jesus's death on the cross? The writing of the bible? It would help me answer your questions better if I understood the question better.

[quote]<strong>I think that whoever wrote the bible (And I don't necessassarily *!spelling* think it was by the people whose names appear in it ie Mark, matthew etc) must have had an untold understanding of the psychology of humans. Recently I read a large 'middle_of_the_road' psychology book, and would like to say that the methods of 'the big sell' in the bible, like the ones you quoted have been scientifically proven as very efficient ways of converting and coercing oppinion. Though im finding it hard to express exactly what i mean.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I see what you are getting at. Basically, was the bible written by people who understand what people need so that hey would be drawn to it because of how it was written, not necessarily because it is the truth?

If that is what you mean, then no, I don't think so in that vein. I think people are drawn to it because it holds answers to questions that everyone has. I also think since it is inspired by God he would want it to be written in a fashion that would draw a reader in, not push them away and confuse them.

[quote]<strong>Q. Who actually wrote the Bible? Especially the old testament? I know some parts come from Mark etc. but what about the rest? Who actually told the 'writer' of these events? And as christianity has only existed for apx 2000 years, how do we know that events such as genesis, the bad_apple thing and noah-and-the-ark took place, and how do we verify their validity? Who wrote the 'end-bits' you've been describing, and how and where did they get this information from?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The bible was written by may different authors. You will get some people disagreeing on a few texts, but overall most scholars agree on who wrote what.

My bible is a study bible and therefore has some of the answers you are looking for.

The end bits were written by a couple different authors depending on what book you are in. For example, Revelation is written by John, as stated in the beginning verses.

Revelation 1
1Â*Â*Â*The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2Â*Â*Â*who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.


and

Revelation 1
9Â*Â*Â*I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10Â*Â*Â*On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet


Daniel was written by Daniel himself, a very educated man. He received his visions from Gabriel, one of only two angels of God actually named in the bible. (Outside of Satan and a few of his cohorts)

Genesis is thought to have been written by Moses. The reason that they believe it was Moses is in the rest of the bible it is written that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, or the first five books of the bible. How he would know what went on in the flood, or the garden of Eden and such is likely through two ways. Stories passed down through generations and divine inspiration. There were 10 generations from Adam to Noah. It says that Adam lived 930 years before he died so nearly all of those 10 generations all happened during his lifespan. He died 100 years or so before Noah was born But his son Seth would have survived to Noah and his son Enosh lived well into Noahs life so this would be second-hand knowledge at worst, not fables.

Then after the flood you have to trace it from Noah to Moses. The life spans start to shorten dramatically, but from Noah to Abram was a total of 390 years, and his Son Shem lived 500 years, he had his son at 100 years old and lived to see the birth of Abram. So that is one jump there, so now we are third or fourth hand at worst. As you can see it traces out pretty well. You can follow the bloodlines very closely. Also, it shows that old men did not go senile in the end, they stayed sharp until they day their bodies gave out. Hope that helps without being too boring...

[quote]<strong>Anyway, thanks for the posts, I, if no-one else am prepared to listen openmindedly, and respect for continuing when 'repeatedly bashed'.

'marc the antichrist'</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for posting. I appreciate your questions and hope I answered some of them. If you have more, ask. I will do my best to answer. If anyone sees anything wrong in what I have written let me know, I will correct any obvious mistakes.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #106 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Ok. So here is the first argument. Satan, as we know was a fallen angel. As I understand it, in Jewish thought, Satan is not an evil personality per say, but rather acts as a provocateur or a questioner or a kind of prosecutor that questions God. This is essentially what human beings are. This is really what differentiates us from the amoeba. Yet on the scale described, the amoeba is a great deal closer to God than humans are. In fact, in our rational capacity we are as far away from God, as any of Gods creations (that I am aware of). Given this logic, Im not sure I want to come any closer to God than I am right now. In fact, I much more closely identify and sympathize with Satan than I do with God.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Interesting question, and one I have heard before. I would agree partially that Satan is "a provocateur or a questioner or a kind of prosecutor that questions God." If I have heard correctly his name translates roughly to the adversary, or the opposer. But that is not all. Satan is after the big prize. The throne of God. That is what got him kicked out inthe first place and that is what he is after even still today. In Gods book that is evil. Thinking that you are a better god than God is one of the worst, if not the worst things you could think.

Also, Satan is described as the great liar, the deceiver, and the father of lies. So that would make him a good attorney , but not evil? It also states that he will be disguised as an angel of light and that many will be deceived and follow him instead of God.

The part that I really have trouble with is this thought:

In fact, in our rational capacity we are as far away from God, as any of Gods creations (that I am aware of). Given this logic, Im not sure I want to come any closer to God than I am right now. In fact, I much more closely identify and sympathize with Satan than I do with God.

I am having difficulty with the logic that led you here. Since the amoeba cannot question God's will he is closer to God then one that can question God? Is that how we arrived here? Because if so I have an answer for you on that.

Genesis 18
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [5]
23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [6] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it?
25 Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [7] of all the earth do right?"
26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes,
28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?" "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?" He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?" He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?" He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.


Abraham was one who walked with God and none would argue that God loved greatly. He questioned God like this frequently. There is nothing wrong with questioning God. The problems come when the spirit you question with is one of rebellion and deceit. God is a merciful God, he is a loving God, and he is a just God. He does not disallow questions, but he knows the heart and can tell what your true goal is when asking them.

If that is not your line of questioning, then please ask again, and I will attempt to answer.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #107 of 140
Thread Starter 
I am still working on the next trumpet judgement, or the second woe. Things are just a bit busy right now. I will post it today or tomorrow I hope.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #108 of 140
quote:
am having difficulty with the logic that led you here. Since the amoeba cannot question God's will he is closer to God then one that can question God? Is that how we arrived here? Because if so I have an answer for you on that.

Noah, remember the thesis: the closer you are to god, the more your being operates on instinct and less on rational thought.

I also think you are confusing two issues into one. I will argue that you CAN still have free will/choice to some degree without having to display higher rational capabilities such as humans are capable of. Thus almost any creature CAN question gods will in almost the same way as we can, in that it has the capacity for limited free choice. We might not be able to discern, in some instances, rational patterns in their choices, but they are there. (Thats the premise behind science anyway). Even a creature as lowly as the amoeba makes rational choices in its basic file processes.

My argument is not that you lose free choice completely (and thus the ability to question god) as you move closer to god, but rather is that you lose your higher rational capacities, and the capacity to make supra rational choices or irrational choices. And thats something Im not sure I want to loose.

mika.

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #109 of 140
quote:
Mika, I woder if you have read any Harold Bloom.

No. But I will try to look him up.

quote:
also, just a note: if you use the terms "New Atestement" and "Old Testement" it implies that the new is better and a replacement for the old.

Yes, I agree. A less competitive terminology would be useful. But until now I wasnt aware of such. Thanks for pointing it out.

mika.
post #110 of 140
Thread Starter 
On we go...

Revelation 9
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns [or projections] of the golden altar that is before God.
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."
15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
16 The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.
18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.


The passage kicks off with the angel blowing the trumpet and then a voice coming fromthe alter of God commanding the release of the 4 angels boound in the river Euphrates. First of all, let me say that the angels are likely fallen angels as angels of God are never shown as being bound in the bible. This would technically make them demons (which are fallen angels.)

Also the place where they are bound, the great river Euphrates, is often used to depict as a beginning for wars. So this passage is often interpreted in two ways that I have heard. Literally, with there being demons released on the earth and allowed to kill 1/3 of mankind thorugh Fire, Sulfur and Smoke (ala the left behind book series). But it is also interpreted as this being a representation of a literal army and a great war happening that wipes out 1/3 of mankind. Possibly with a return of holocaust tactics where people are killed in gas chambers and the bodies burned.

The book of Revelation starts showing why God is pouring out his judgement on the earth. Giving direct reasons:

20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.


It then moves into a description of something supernatural that occurs in his vision. I will get into that in the next post.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #111 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>On we go...

Revelation 9
13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns [or projections] of the golden altar that is before God.
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."
15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
16 The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.
18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.
19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.


The passage kicks off with the angel blowing the trumpet and then a voice coming fromthe alter of God commanding the release of the 4 angels boound in the river Euphrates. First of all, let me say that the angels are likely fallen angels as angels of God are never shown as being bound in the bible. This would technically make them demons (which are fallen angels.)

Also the place where they are bound, the great river Euphrates, is often used to depict as a beginning for wars. So this passage is often interpreted in two ways that I have heard. Literally, with there being demons released on the earth and allowed to kill 1/3 of mankind thorugh Fire, Sulfur and Smoke (ala the left behind book series). But it is also interpreted as this being a representation of a literal army and a great war happening that wipes out 1/3 of mankind. Possibly with a return of holocaust tactics where people are killed in gas chambers and the bodies burned.

The book of Revelation starts showing why God is pouring out his judgement on the earth. Giving direct reasons:

20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.


It then moves into a description of something supernatural that occurs in his vision. I will get into that in the next post.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And we are supposed to believe this to be truth for what reason again? It is arrogant of you to assume that the religion that you were born into is the correct one out of the hundreds (or maybe thousands) of religions that exist on this planet.
post #112 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

And we are supposed to believe this to be truth for what reason again? It is arrogant of you to assume that the religion that you were born into is the correct one out of the hundreds (or maybe thousands) of religions that exist on this planet.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I did not ask you to believe it. I suggest you start at the begining of this thread and do a bit of reading to get the gist of what this thread is about. After you have done that come back and post in the thread, ON TOPIC. If you cannot stay on topic here, go back to the other thread (you konw which one) and continue posting there. The topic is borad enough that it is hard for you to go off topic. Thank you.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #113 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

I did not ask you to believe it. I suggest you start at the begining of this thread and do a bit of reading to get the gist of what this thread is about. After you have done that come back and post in the thread, ON TOPIC. If you cannot stay on topic here, go back to the other thread (you konw which one) and continue posting there. The topic is borad enough that it is hard for you to go off topic. Thank you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmm, your topic is entitled "discussion on end of times." Well, saying your sources are flawed is relevant because it would affect such a conversation. I am quite on topic. Oh, and here is a quote from your first post.

[quote]if you think it is balogna don't slap me with it, just say why and check back later<hr></blockquote>

Note where you say "say why." I think it is crap and I said why. I am on topic. Sounds like someone is a bit biased against me. What a great christian you are.
post #114 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

Note where you say "say why." I think it is crap and I said why. I am on topic. Sounds like someone is a bit biased against me. What a great christian you are.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I didn't hurt your feelings did I?

Not biased against you, more like bitten by you, multiple times.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #115 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
I didn't hurt your feelings did I?<hr></blockquote>

Get off your high horse. I'll just keep calling you an ignorant toad as long as you feel the need to keep up these hostilities.
post #116 of 140
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>

Get off your high horse. I'll just keep calling you an ignorant toad as long as you feel the need to keep up these hostilities.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thank you for proving my point for me. Hostilities? Look in the mirror. I merely answer your questions and then you attack my views with extreme hostility. Perhaps if this is too "hostile" a subject for you, you should refrain from reading it or posting to it?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #117 of 140
Thread Starter 
Revelation 10 is sort of an interlude between actul events that are occuring in the vision that Paul is having.

The informaiton in it is good, and I suggest reading it, but for this thread it goes a bit outside of my stated intent, which was to tell you what events on earth would lead up to the end of the world.

If you want to read it, by all means do!

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=REV+10&language=english&version=NIV& showfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">Revelation 10.</a>

Revelation 11 moves us back to events on Earth.

Revelation 11
1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.


This seems to depict God summing up the spiritual condition of the Jewsish people. How many are following God and how many are simply living life their own way.

The trampling of the holy city and Israel probably means that Israel will be oppressed by the "Gentiles". Usually in the NT this means non-beleivers in general.

3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.


This part I believe is a what it sounds like. There will be 2 prophets that appear in the world. They will call for worldwide repentance,a nd show a great many signs and wonders to backup their claims of being from God.

In fact, if you look at what the two witnesses are cpable of doing and you look at the first 4 trumpet judgements there are some parallels that can be drawn.

In one study I read they put it thus:

The echoes of the first four trumpets suggest that John's prophecy of the witnesses be read as a conscious transformation of the entire trumpet series.

The two men will be invincible for 3.5 years. However, 1260 days into their ministry they will be killed by "the beast that comes up from the Abyss". At this point "the beast" has not been identified. Later on he is identified as the AntiChrist, but some also interpret this beast as being Abaddon. In the same study it is explained this way.

The transformation of the fifth trumpet and the first part of the sixth comes in verses 7-13. The two witnesses are invincible during the time they are prophesying (v. 6), but when the 1,260 days are over, they become vulnerable to attack by the beast that comes up from the Abyss (v. 7). John speaks of the beast as if it has been mentioned before, but this is not the case. We will hear more of him in chapters 13 and 17, but the reference here is very abrupt, unless we recall the king of the locusts under the fifth trumpet, "the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon" (9:11). Whether or not John has consciously transformed Apollyon into the beast from the Abyss, the terminology of the fifth and sixth trumpets is echoed in John's references to the beast's making "war" (v. 7, NRSV; compare 9:7, 9) against the two witnesses and "killing" them (v. 7; compare 9:15, 18, 20). The deadly war of invading locusts and cavalry against the earth's inhabitants is here transformed into a war of the beast that comes up from the Abyss against God's people and their prophets.

They will be left out in the street in full view of the public for 3.5 days. My understanding is that for a Jew this is the worst thing that could happen to a dead person. And at this point the world rejoices that they have died and have celebrations. They will obviously blame these two men for much of what has gone on and think that now they are dead things will go back to normal. But after 3.5 days they will come back to life and ascend to heaven in full view of everyone. This will cause many to repent and give glory to God. In other words, they will finally "get it" and see what is going on for what it is.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.


This all ends with a major earthquake and much of the city they are in collapsing. Which city is somewhat unclear, but I think that it will be in Israel near Golgotha. If anyone is still reading, in the next post we move on to the third woe and the 7th trumpet.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #118 of 140
Thread Starter 
The 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.


This trumpet appears to split the book of Revelation in half. Once more we are back in heaven and in the vision the elders are worshipping at the throne of God.

I will once more quote the study that I have been reading recently:

The first four trumpets might easily have left the impression that God was destroying the creation with fire from heaven, but by now the trumpet series has been transformed. Responsibility for the damage rests not with God, but with those who provoked God's anger. We have met them briefly, as the beast from the Abyss (11:7) or as "the great city . . . called Sodom and Egypt" (11:8). We will meet them again in varied forms in later chapters. The concluding reference to destroying those who destroy the earth (v. 18) is strangely similar to Paul's solemn warning to the Corinthians: "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple" (1 Cor 3:16-17). Here in Revelation, it is as if the whole earth is God's temple, the "outer court" of his sanctuary in heaven (compare 11:2), given over to the Gentiles--or nations--for a limited time, but now holy once again and ready to be reclaimed.

It seems to sum up the first half very well. We here have a respite in what is going on and this last Trumpet brings us into the last part of revelation. Most scholars agree that the next chapter, 12, covers past history and future events all in one.

The chapter can be read <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=REV+12&language=english&version=NIV& showfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">here.</a> The refrences to Jesus' birth and life and asenscion to haven are obvious, but many agree that all prophecies usually have two meanings. One that either had happened or would soon happen, and one that would happen at the end of time.

The different signs can mean many things but the interpretaiton I have of makes sense to me.

1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


The woman could be Israel, renewed, a new nation. The 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel. She is pregnant and about to give birth. This could refer to the fullness of time. Like the mention of when the almond tree blossums, or the emergence of the new generation of Israelites in the new land. (Let us just stop a moment and say that I have received no vision from God on this. This is just my interpretation.)

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.


The red dragon appears to be Satan. The obvious reference to his tail sweeping 1/3 of the stars from the heavens is one main point that brings me to this conclusion. He has 7 heads, 10 horns and 7 crowns on his heads. A read through <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=DAN+7&language=english&version=NIV&s howfn=on&showxref=on" target="_blank">Daniel</a> shows some interpretation and similarities to what is written in Revelation. I am unsure why 7 heads, I will have to do some more research, but the 10 horn could easily be the 10 kings mentioned in Daniel. The world will fall under one government as the end draws near and the anti-christ will be the one in charge. Under him will be 10 rulers and the world will be divided among them.

As we move on we find more refrence to Satans war in heaven and being cast down to Earth. Whether this means there will be another or if it is just emphasis on the fact that he was cast down I am unsure. However the vision goes on to speak of how the Accuser has been cast down from heaven and is now on Earth and is furious because he knows his time is short. So Satan no longer has access to the throne of God to accuse man, and thus he tries instead to deceive man and lead them away from God.

It shows that Satan being cast down persued the woman who gave birth to the male child. Israel in my interpretation. And sought to destroy her. He was foiled on every effort. This can be shown in past history, holocaust, and will ilkely happen again, except this time Israel will be somehow spared. Then it will be the christians turn to be oppressed greatly.

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The religious will become even more important as time goes on. But for now the next installment speaks of the rise of the anti-christ. Hope to see you there...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #119 of 140
Thread Starter 
Revelation 13
1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

The dragon is understood to be Satan, the beast is understood to be the antichrist. The symbolism of the beast coming out of the sea is usually interpreted as him coming out of a large body of people.

2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.


Some interpret this to mean that the antichrist will be killed during his reign and be raised from the dead, an obvious ploy at trying to become the "antimessiah" and to wrest followers from Jesus. Later on it speaks of the beast being wounded by the sword leading some to believe that he will be wounded in the head bya sword and will die because of it. Then Satan will posess him and raise him from the dead. It makes for a frightening thought, but I do not know if it is completely correct or not.

4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"

This seems to imply that people will worship satan because the antichrist will be given authority by him and show signs and wonders that are derived from satanic forces, not godly forces. It is also likely that the beast will have many victories under his belt and so people will see him as somehow invincible.

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.


This seems to speak of a religious system that will be put in place in the last days. The system will be blasphemous against God. It will be setup against the teachings of Jesus and will try to show how God is evil and not worthy to be followed alone, and will likely profane heaven itself and it inhabitants.

7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.


It seems that this will be a time of trial for those that choose Jesus as their savior. There will be a one world governmanet with him as a leader. And any who choose Christ during that time will be persecuted and likley killed (martyred) for their beliefs. Any who are not saved will worship the beast (antichrist) as god.

9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


This seems to say that what is going to happen, will happen, all we can do is be patient and keep our faith strong during these times.

11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.


The antichrist will have another man as his false prophet. This man will speak on behalf of the antichrist and will setup a religion based on him alone. He will have the power to kill on command, bringing "fire from heaven". This would seem to be shown as a miraculous sign of power that will be used to kill those who refuse to worship the antichrist.

16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


The mark of the beast is the one thing for sure that no believer can do and expect salvation afterwards. If you freely accept the mark of the beast you will be rejecting God and no amount of repentance later will save you. This is the only thing that I can find in the bible where God will not forgive you. Take the mark, and you have sealed your fate forever. This warning is very stark and for all to see. Any who do this will do so in full knowlege of what they are doing and by their own free will. It is likely that refusal to take the mark will doom you to death, by beheading. This is spoken of later on. So it will be the ultimate choice. Choose God and be physically killed, or choose the antichrist and by proxy Satan and be spiritually killed.

I pray that I never see that day. Ever.

The next installment coming soon. If you have any questions or wish to refute any points made, feel free to do so.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #120 of 140
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
If you have any questions or wish to refute any points made, feel free to do so.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>

And the lord said, "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself god dammit."
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