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Nokia pokes at iPhone 4 death grip, gets called on it - Page 3

post #81 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Of interest to you then;

http://www.thebestdigital.com/nokias...-pressure.html

They are are the way down even their home market. All they post is poor guidance, and their stock is a fraction of what it was a few years ago. o one really cares about what they do. They're flailing about with OS's for their top phones, because nothing is helping.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2105...m?source=email

At their current business plan Nokia doesn't stand a chance against Apple, Android, and RIM. Nokia will end up living on their patents and licensing fees and maybe their free junk phones.
post #82 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

The disagreement was over the compilers used, Apple's favoring the G5 and Intel's favoring the PC, with both sides having what they believed to be valid points. But heck, let's not open that can of worms again.

My point was that there was at least one case I can remember that supported the poster's contention. For all I know, perhaps there are more, but that's conjecture.

Actually you're mistaken about comparative advertising in the UK. I worked there for a while and saw examples of it from time to time, mostly in retail ads. So they are allowed, as the following illustrates:

The Directive requires that the advert:

1. must not be misleading;

2. must objectively compare goods or services meeting the same needs or intended for the same purpose;

3. must objectively compare features of the goods including prices;

4. must not discredit or denigrate the trade marks or other activities or services of the competitor;

5. where it relates to products with a designation of origin, relates only to products with the same designation;

6. must not take unfair advantage of the competitors trade mark or its reputation;

7. must not present the goods or services as imitations or replicas of those bearing the trade mark; and

8. must not create confusion between the advertiser and trade mark owner.

Don't know about the rest of Europe though. Just clarifying so we can move on.

I'm aware of the droll things you mentioned. I was in advertising for years. But no one does Ads like that because people would go to sleep. Ads aren't to make dry use of numbers, they are to excite the imagination. The problem with what you're showing is why so much advertising is so boring over there. The governments don't trust people to be intelligent enough to separate the hyperbole from the more mundane parts. so you can't say something like our **** is more sleek than XXX's model. It's really in the eyes of the beholder, but it gets people looking at both products and wondering about them. But you can't say that there, even though it just silly, typical copy.
post #83 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Please state a specific lie that Apple told.

Implying that digital camera will not work with PC (or has difficulties) is, in my book, a lie. I still have operational Canon A40 camera that was released without Mac support (was not compatible with OSX Image Capture or something like that). Canon released Mac version of camera's software later on, but it is hardly a secret in early 2000's it was much easier to find camera/printer/... not working with Mac than with PC, and people were using some of those devices when above mentioned "Get a Mac" add was released. My brother, for example, is still using old HP 4L laser printer. It does the job for him. It has parallel printer port.

Quote:
The reality is that Macs are much easier to use than PCs. I know a LOT of Windows PC users who aren't able to take advantage of any of that wide range of hardware and software because of the complexity. The same people who seem to be able to use Macs without any difficulty.

There's a difference between having access to something and having it be usable.

Can't argue on this since I didn't have a chance to work on Mac yet. That little impression I picked up in Apple shops didn't make me realise OSX is any easier than W7, in fact it felt much more alien to me... but like I said, it wasn't experience long enough to really count.

I can, however, argue on something else; being easier doesn't really mean much if you can't do what you need - experience my good friend had recently. He has small VIP transport company (couple of BMWs) and was very enthusiastic when he's got his MacBook Pro... only to learn GPS tracking software for GPS devices in his cars doesn't exist on OSX. After various problem he experienced with bootcamp and virtual XP, he returned to ThinkPad T60 for work and MacBook for his own stuff, but decided having 2 laptops is a bit of an overkill and sold Mac soon after.
post #84 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

You don't get this right.

Give up, and stop embarrassing yourself.

ok, you can honestly say that Apple has never lied in any of their ads, and been found to be lieing by a government agency?

I'm not embarrassing myself, but your lust for a company is embarrassing you.
post #85 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

At their current business plan Nokia doesn't stand a chance against Apple, Android, and RIM. Nokia will end up living on their patents and licensing fees and maybe their free junk phones.

I can get an iPhone for free, must make them junk as well then?
post #86 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Similar to the article about the antennae issue from Price Mclean, this one misses the point and (I feel) is intentionally conflating two separate issues in order to downplay the problem with (a subset of?) the iPhone 4 devices.

As has been repeated a thousand times, all cellular phones --- and all RF devices --- will have their signal strength attenuated to some degree if you cover their antennae with your hands or other body parts. Consequently, many, if not most cell phones will show an increased signal strength when you set it down on a table. No one is disputing this.
In fact, this should also happen with the iPhone 4 to some degree, depending on how much you are covering the antennae portion.

On the other hand, at least some of the iPhone 4 units are experiencing a different phenomenon which is far more disruptive and can lead to a complete loss of signal. This phenomenon only occurs when the antennae is covered in a specific fashion, namely when it is held in a left-hand orientation. Based on all the reports, it almost assuredly is related to the fact that two different external antennae come together on the bottom-left corner of the device. These antennae are electrically separated by a small piece of rubber which keeps them from contacting each other. It appears that when someone holds the iPhone 4 in their left hand --- with their skin contacting both antennae --- they can act as a conductor and short the antennae together. This probably depends on local conditions, skin conductivity, etc, but appears to be widespread.

Some of the questions that immediately come up when this is discussed are:

1) How would Apple's engineers miss such a basic engineering flaw?
2) Why does this only affect certain people and not others?

Additionally, there was a rumor going around that a customer service representative told a customer that there was a manufacturing defect related to some "iPhones not receiving a coating"...

With this information, I think the most rational explanation is that the iPhone 4 was indeed designed to receive a special non-conductive, perhaps anti-corrosive, coating on the stainless-steel antennae during the manufacturing process -- and something went wrong on at least some of the assembly lines

This would easily explain the problem with how Apple's engineers wouldn't see a basic engineering problem. Similarly, coupled with the fact that signal strength is highly variable based upon local conditions/radio frequency/topography, this would also explain why many people are unable to replicate this problem. Their device may not have the manufacturing defect, or perhaps their signal strength is very high and so less affected by the antennae shorting than a device with a lower signal to begin with.

The only part of this situation that is still confusing is Apple's varied responses. I'm beginning to think that once Apple figured out how widespread this manufacturing defect could be, and in order to avoid a costly recall, they decided to downplay the issue and act like the antennae issue is normal behavior.

What do you guys think?

Bingo, you got it in one. But unfortunately pretty much no-one else has worked it out, especially all the fanbois whining about how everyone else has the same problem. Well, they don't.

And it is pretty hard to see how they can fix an antenna short in software. I wouldn't be suprised to see a replacement program for those affected. I think a free rubber Apple condom doesn't cut it.
post #87 of 168
I'd like to know why all the phone manufacturers decided to stop putting antennas on the top of the phone. Is there really a good scientific reason for putting it on the bottom where it's shielded by the user's hand and head?

Heck, if it gave me better reception I'd gladly go back to having one of those little pull out antennas that cell phones used to have.
post #88 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

The difference is that I can show you that the original iPhone can install apps sine 2008. Can you show me how Nokia solved the crappy N97 UI?!

Well for starters I don't have a N97, nor do I ever want to get one, so I can't "show you", but you could do a simple search and find for yourself.

But knowing you, you won't.
post #89 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Not too many people seem to care much about Nokia launch days. That's not just here. Maybe in Europe somewhere.

Yeah, the US lives in a little deluded world all of it own...

http://tnerd.com/2010/06/09/nokia-c3...ses-on-launch/
post #90 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Of interest to you then;

http://www.thebestdigital.com/nokias...-pressure.html

They are are the way down even their home market. All they post is poor guidance, and their stock is a fraction of what it was a few years ago. o one really cares about what they do. They're flailing about with OS's for their top phones, because nothing is helping.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2105...m?source=email

Don't forget that Apple was nearly backrupt a couple of years ago, things change.
post #91 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Well there was an ad for the G5 being the world's fastest personal computer which was taken off air in the UK because Apple couldn't substantiate the claim. 2003 if memory serves.

There was also the one about claiming the iPhone had the "full internet" and they were whacked because if not having Flash or Java.
post #92 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I'm aware of the droll things you mentioned. I was in advertising for years. But no one does Ads like that because people would go to sleep. Ads aren't to make dry use of numbers, they are to excite the imagination. The problem with what you're showing is why so much advertising is so boring over there. The governments don't trust people to be intelligent enough to separate the hyperbole from the more mundane parts. so you can't say something like our **** is more sleek than XXX's model. It's really in the eyes of the beholder, but it gets people looking at both products and wondering about them. But you can't say that there, even though it just silly, typical copy.

It's a situation that's part and parcel of their ad culture so it's not noticed by consumers or the ad industry itself. In some ways it makes ads from the UK even better because they have to be even more creative in their executions to make a point over the competition product which they don't have the luxury of dumping on directly.
post #93 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Of interest to you then;

http://www.thebestdigital.com/nokias...-pressure.html

They are are the way down even their home market. All they post is poor guidance, and their stock is a fraction of what it was a few years ago. o one really cares about what they do. They're flailing about with OS's for their top phones, because nothing is helping.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2105...m?source=email

Did you actually read that first article?!

"Although some 88.7 percent of all phones used in Finland are manufactured by Nokia." and the rest is maybe, could be under pressure. Yeah, so their market share is really down lots...
post #94 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Well for starters I don't have a N97, nor do I ever want to get one, so I can't "show you", but you could do a simple search and find for yourself.

But knowing you, you won't.

Maybe now you can stop claiming that the firmware fixes those problems.
post #95 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Don't forget that Apple was nearly backrupt a couple of years ago, things change.

A couple of years ago?!
post #96 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

Similar to the article about the antennae issue from Price Mclean, this one misses the point and (I feel) is intentionally conflating two separate issues in order to downplay the problem with (a subset of?) the iPhone 4 devices.

On AppleInsider? Tis schocking, shocking I say!
post #97 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by NanoAkron View Post

Holding your hand over the screen prevents normal function of the Retina Display

Holding your hand over the microphone makes it harder for the other person to hear you

Holding your hand over the aerial makes it harder for the phone to receive a signal.

Indeed. Unfortunately, holding facts over clownboys' heads does nothing to stop them from making asses of themselves. After this blows over, as it will, and Apple sells zillions of iPhones, as they will, the clownboy brigade will just seize upon something new to preen themselves over. They are nothing if not utterly predictable.
post #98 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

The problem with what you're showing is why so much advertising is so boring over there. The governments don't trust people to be intelligent enough to separate the hyperbole from the more mundane parts. so you can't say something like our **** is more sleek than XXX's model. It's really in the eyes of the beholder, but it gets people looking at both products and wondering about them. But you can't say that there, even though it just silly, typical copy.

The corollary, of course, is that in the markets where that is allowed, consumers expect to be fed some BS. What would you prefer?
post #99 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

Implying that digital camera will not work with PC (or has difficulties) is, in my book, a lie. I still have operational Canon A40 camera that was released without Mac support (was not compatible with OSX Image Capture or something like that). Canon released Mac version of camera's software later on, but it is hardly a secret in early 2000's it was much easier to find camera/printer/... not working with Mac than with PC, and people were using some of those devices when above mentioned "Get a Mac" add was released. My brother, for example, is still using old HP 4L laser printer. It does the job for him. It has parallel printer port.

I don't remember Apple ever saying that cameras wouldn't work with PC's. Can you show where they said that? If they implied that they were, in general, more difficult to use with PC's, they were right. They would still be right. That was my business for years. PC's were, and still are, though less so today, more difficult to set up for these sorts of things.

Quote:
I can, however, argue on something else; being easier doesn't really mean much if you can't do what you need - experience my good friend had recently. He has small VIP transport company (couple of BMWs) and was very enthusiastic when he's got his MacBook Pro... only to learn GPS tracking software for GPS devices in his cars doesn't exist on OSX. After various problem he experienced with bootcamp and virtual XP, he returned to ThinkPad T60 for work and MacBook for his own stuff, but decided having 2 laptops is a bit of an overkill and sold Mac soon after.

That was true. For a while, there wasn't any GPS tracking software for the Mac but there wasn't software for many things on the PC either. Neither platform has a monopoly on anything these days.
post #100 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

ok, you can honestly say that Apple has never lied in any of their ads, and been found to be lieing by a government agency?

I'm not embarrassing myself, but your lust for a company is embarrassing you.

I don't believe that major companies deliberately lie. They may stretch the truth, they may make mistakes. But I don't think they lie outright. That was never my experience in advertising.
post #101 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I'd like to know why all the phone manufacturers decided to stop putting antennas on the top of the phone. Is there really a good scientific reason for putting it on the bottom where it's shielded by the user's hand and head?

Heck, if it gave me better reception I'd gladly go back to having one of those little pull out antennas that cell phones used to have.

People didn't like them at first.

Then the governments began to require they put them at the bottom so that the radiation wouldn't be at the ear. Though no study has ever found a link between cell phone use and cancer or other problems.They decided to not take chances.

Perhaps, that will change.
post #102 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

Yeah, the US lives in a little deluded world all of it own...

http://tnerd.com/2010/06/09/nokia-c3...ses-on-launch/

Wow! Cheap series 40 phones, which, by the way, are NOT smartphones. They are feature phones, and before long, the way Nokia is going, will be all they will be selling.

We are, as you may have noticed, talking about REAL smartphones.
post #103 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Don't forget that Apple was nearly backrupt a couple of years ago, things change.

A couple of years ago? Maybe 13 years ago. Even then they weren't near bankruptcy. But Nokia is surely on the way down. That's one reason why they reorganized their company AGAIN.

It doesn't mean they can't right themselves, but it doesn't look to good now.
post #104 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

The disagreement was over the compilers used, Apple's favoring the G5 and Intel's favoring the PC, with both sides having what they believed to be valid points. But heck, let's not open that can of worms again.

My point was that there was at least one case I can remember that supported the poster's contention. For all I know, perhaps there are more, but that's conjecture.

Actually you're mistaken about comparative advertising in the UK. I worked there for a while and saw examples of it from time to time, mostly in retail ads. So they are allowed, as the following illustrates:

The Directive requires that the advert:

1. must not be misleading;

2. must objectively compare goods or services meeting the same needs or intended for the same purpose;

3. must objectively compare features of the goods including prices;

4. must not discredit or denigrate the trade marks or other activities or services of the competitor;

5. where it relates to products with a designation of origin, relates only to products with the same designation;

6. must not take unfair advantage of the competitors trade mark or its reputation;

7. must not present the goods or services as imitations or replicas of those bearing the trade mark; and

8. must not create confusion between the advertiser and trade mark owner.

Don't know about the rest of Europe though. Just clarifying so we can move on.

Compiler => Processor Architecture.

The PowerPC G5 RISC Architecture for Apple and the x86/x86_EM64/x86_amd64 CoreDuo/Core2Duo/etc., CISC/RISC Architecture for Intel.
post #105 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

Did you actually read that first article?!

"Although some 88.7 percent of all phones used in Finland are manufactured by Nokia." and the rest is maybe, could be under pressure. Yeah, so their market share is really down lots...

Again, we're talking about SMARTPONES Remember? You're upset because coverage isn't given to Nokia's weekend releases. Who covers releases of cheap throw-away phones?

Apple has taken 20+% of the smartphone market in Finland, and it's increasing. Suck on that for a while.
post #106 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

The corollary, of course, is that in the markets where that is allowed, consumers expect to be fed some BS. What would you prefer?

I would prefer that the government not exert censorship over every aspect of advertising, assuming that the entire public is too stupid to know what they're seeing.

Outright lies, and deception is one thing, but exaggeration is a part of marketing. We even do it in our lives, though some won't admit that. Most people can filter it out.

I remember a long time ago, when I was in advertising, when Campbell Soup was fined here for putting some marbles in the bottom of the soup bowl because when the film was shot, it didn't look like the real thing. So they used enough marbles to make it look right. But that wasn't allowed, and they got caught. I thought it was funny at the time, but they should have been allowed to show why, and the result of what they had done.

But when the rules are made, it's either or.
post #107 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

Maybe now you can stop claiming that the firmware fixes those problems.

Why would I, if you do a search for N97 firmware updates it clearly says they have UI improvements in them, if you want to live in your little dream world then that's fine by me.
post #108 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I would prefer that the government not exert censorship over every aspect of advertising, assuming that the entire public is too stupid to know what they're seeing.

Outright lies, and deception is one thing, but exaggeration is a part of marketing. We even do it in our lives, though some won't admit that. Most people can filter it out.

I remember a long time ago, when I was in advertising, when Campbell Soup was fined here for putting some marbles in the bottom of the soup bowl because when the film was shot, it didn't look like the real thing. So they used enough marbles to make it look right. But that wasn't allowed, and they got caught. I thought it was funny at the time, but they should have been allowed to show why, and the result of what they had done.

But when the rules are made, it's either or.

I guess you and and I are from different schools then. But that's what makes the world go round.
post #109 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Wow! Cheap series 40 phones, which, by the way, are NOT smartphones. They are feature phones, and before long, the way Nokia is going, will be all they will be selling.

We are, as you may have noticed, talking about REAL smartphones.

REAL smartphones?? What is the difference between a smartphone and a "REAL" smartphone?
post #110 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It doesn't mean they can't right themselves, but it doesn't look to good now.

And yet that is what people were saying about Apple at the time as well.
post #111 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jodyfanning View Post

Yeah, the US lives in a little deluded world all of it own...

http://tnerd.com/2010/06/09/nokia-c3...ses-on-launch/

There is no wonder because cellphones are sold unsubsidized in Indonesia. Shit like Nokia C3 priced about $110, while iPhone 3GS 16G is $750.
post #112 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

Compiler => Processor Architecture.

The PowerPC G5 RISC Architecture for Apple and the x86/x86_EM64/x86_amd64 CoreDuo/Core2Duo/etc., CISC/RISC Architecture for Intel.

Sorry, didn't understand exactly what you're getting at there.

Could be you're agreeing with me and expanding on what I wrote but I'm not certain.
post #113 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

REAL smartphones?? What is the difference between a smartphone and a "REAL" smartphone?

S40 phones aren't considered to be smartphones. They're feature phones. See here, and I'll give a short quote:

http://www.forum.nokia.com/Devices/Series_40/

This is an official Nokia web site. The description is from Nokia themselves.

Quote:
Series 40 6th Edition\t
Rich features, applications, and content for high end feature phones

I hope that lays this issue to rest.
post #114 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

And yet that is what people were saying about Apple at the time as well.

Are you a parrot? Can you give reasons why NOKIA can right itself? It doesn't matter what other companies have done. What matters is what Nokia can do. I don't want to see them go under the way Palm did. I don't think anyone here does. Competition is good. But they have serious problems. Problems they have admitted to, and problems which YOU don't want to admit they have.

Tell me how many links you want me to put here to show you a progression over the past year or two.

Though it is 3:30 am here, and so I'll have to continue tomorrow some time.
post #115 of 168
How do you hold your phone?

post #116 of 168
Someone asked about the Apple adverts banned from the UK. Here they are:

"All the parts of the internet are on the iPhone" declared misleading
iPhone speed exaggerated

Those are the only two that I'm aware of in recent years.

Apple's "I'm a Mac" commercials only lasted for one set of ads in the UK too. I'm not entirely sure why. Perhaps because of the bold claims, perhaps due to their choice of actors.

I'm glad that we've got a strong advertising watchdog in this country. It keeps companies honest and ultimately leads to better adverts.
post #117 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Are you a parrot? Can you give reasons why NOKIA can right itself?

I think that they're slowly turning the corner. Their Qt strategy is a smart one and the changes they've recently made to the Ovi app store are great. They've also committed themselves to producing fewer models per year.

Symbian^4 and the first release of MeeGo will be make or break for the company. If either is significantly delayed or isn't competitive then they're likely to become the next Motorola.
post #118 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I hope that lays this issue to rest.

No it doesn't, you said

Quote:
We are, as you may have noticed, talking about REAL smartphones

Again I ask you, what is the difference between a smartphone and a "REAL" smartphone (your words, not mine)
post #119 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Are you a parrot? Can you give reasons why NOKIA can right itself? It doesn't matter what other companies have done. What matters is what Nokia can do. I don't want to see them go under the way Palm did. I don't think anyone here does. Competition is good. But they have serious problems. Problems they have admitted to, and problems which YOU don't want to admit they have.

You call me a parrot, yet you are the one constantly spouting the same thing over and over again.

I know Nokia has problems, I'm not sure why you claim I don't want to admit that, but Apple have serious issues as well, they just released a phone that lacked serious testing, and then blamed their users for the way they were using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Tell me how many links you want me to put here to show you a progression over the past year or two.

Though it is 3:30 am here, and so I'll have to continue tomorrow some time.

You can post as many links you want, I will even read them, but please make sure you don't post those US centric ones, the world is very different in other regions and a lot of them don't mean much.
post #120 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I can get an iPhone for free, must make them junk as well then?

Just don't get caught.
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