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Law firm exploring class action suit over iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 7

post #241 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Could someone supply a reference that Apple said is caused by holding the device improperly?

An hour and a half later and nobody has shown any evidence that Apple stated that the cause was holding the device improperly.

The problem we have here is that most of the comments are hearsay. In fact, most of the complaints here are made by people who don't have an iPhone 4, including two of the most vocal anti-Apple members who have posted over 1/8 of the 240 blogs.

Perhaps an easier question:

Does anybody have any evidence that Apple will not fix the problem if there is one? Or for a company that continues to lead the industry in customer support and satisfaction, what historical evidence do you have to suggest that Apple will not make good on this issue?
post #242 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

An hour and a half later and nobody has shown and evidence that Apple stated that the cause was holding the device improperly.

The problem we have here is that most of the comments are hearsay. In fact, most of the complaints here are made by people who don't have an iPhone 4, including two of the most vocal anti-Apple members who have posted over 1/8 of the 240 blogs.

Here's one of many sources of the statement from Apple:

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15380442

Quote:
The Cupertino company issued a more expansive statement to the one Jobs fired off: "Gripping any mobile phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance, with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases
post #243 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by stedwick View Post

Plus, what the hell is so hard to understand about, "If you don't like it, just return it for a full refund"? Why on Earth do lawyers need to be involved? You can't sue a company into making products to meet your specifications.

Agreed. I don't know how the other carriers handle it, but AT&T has a 30-day grace period on all phones. Since the iPhone 4 has been out for less than a week, every U.S. owner is still eligible to return theirs.

FWIW, we have two in my household now (mine arrived yesterday!) and neither is affected by hand placement as far as I can tell.
post #244 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

Please supply a link.
post #245 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Please supply a link.

See post 245 that has a link. That is pure denial. Please provide us a link from Apple that shows otherwise.
post #246 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Please supply a link.

I didn't past that. I was quoting ski1 from his post #227 here:

"If this was merely a a simple manufacturing defect, I would have expected Apple to have a response to this issue a long time ago. And Apple customer support is now telling customers a replacement phone will not fix their issue. It's obvious to me this issue is not a simple manufacturing defect, it's instead either a hardware (which I believe), or software flaw.

But whatever the case, Apple's denial an issue exists is very troublesome.

I think this iPhone shortage is a blessing in disguise. It will give potential iPhone 4 customers more time to absorb and become knowledgeable about this issue before making a purchase when they are finally widely available again."

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post #247 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Here's one of many sources of the statement from Apple:

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15380442

It doesn't say that it was because it was held IMPROPERLY

It was as statement of possible cause as evidenced by other similar devices, not of blame.

FWIW, here is another perspective that makes more sense that what is being said here.

FAQ: The iPhone 4 antenna flap http://www.macworld.com/article/1523...tenna_faq.html
post #248 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

It doesn't say that it was because it was held IMPROPERLY

It was as statement of possible cause as evidenced by other similar devices, not of blame.

Did you miss the below part ?

Quote:
avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band

Which is a place many people naturally hold the phone.
post #249 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

I did take mine back, now what do I do with the several hundred iOS only apps that I bought? Live with my 3GS? Just bite the bullet and move on to a different platform? Blindly praise Apple? Just what exactly?

Is your 3GS not working? Is it no longer being supported by Apple?

Sorry, Apple (or any company) has no obligation to force you use the latest version of their products.
post #250 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

I'm not a lawyer; but this could be a case of false advertizing. I paid a penalty to leave Verizon (early temination) to switch to what a rational person would presume to be a fully functional cell phone. I now have a cell phone that does not function as a cell phone at my place of business - whereas my Verizon phone functioned perfectly.

Thus, my damages not only include missed phone and missed business opportunties, but my early termination fees (which I cannot recover) from Verizon. So, simply giving me my money back still leaves me financially punished. Hence, class action lawsuit.

You want Apple to pay your Verizon early termination fee? Sorry, this seems weird to me. You chose to break that contract. Also, you could have tested your iPhone for a few days before canceling your previous contract ... that's what I'm doing now, before saying goodbye to T-Mobile.
post #251 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by kresh View Post

I did take mine back, now what do I do with the several hundred iOS only apps that I bought? Live with my 3GS? Just bite the bullet and move on to a different platform? Blindly praise Apple? Just what exactly?

Hyperbole won't get you anywhere. Several hundred apps??? I call bullshit.

Now to answer as if you reasonable said a couple dozen apps: If you move platforms, you move platforms. Anyone that has moved from Windows to OS X or Linux has had the same problem. It's a known hazard in technology. Was I pissed when Commodore quit making C64s and 128's? No, even though my software was not useful on any new machines.

So go back to your 3GS and deal, you were happy with the phone previously, it's just as good as it was before Steve announced the 4G.
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post #252 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by arlomedia View Post

You want Apple to pay your Verizon early termination fee? Sorry, this seems weird to me. You chose to break that contract. Also, you could have tested your iPhone for a few days before canceling your previous contract ... that's what I'm doing now, before saying goodbye to T-Mobile.

I opted to keep my phone number, and simply port it over. When you are married with grandkids - it's far wiser to port your number rather than send a flurry of emails out (that never get read) and then have the kids wonder why they can't get ahold of you.

When you port; you have no option to 'try out' the iPhone - you switch and within minutes, the old phone is dead.
post #253 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

It is not all that obvious. We know that the white version is delayed because of manufacturing
problems. We also know that many phones shipped with the screen bonding substance insufficiently cured, causing yellowish blotches on some screens. We don't know how many lots of black iPhones were rejected, because of spot checks. We don't know how extensive and well designed the final tests were. Finally, a certain portion of all manufacturing runs makes it out the door with defects. We don't have accurate statistics on the prevalence of the issue for iPhones, so
we can't say with certainty that it is excessive.

I guess being a genius has it's drawbacks.

When you make a non-conductive finish, the out-going test would be a resistance measurement step prior to going into final assembly. You NEVER ever (EVER!) allow something like a human's 'opinion' ("Gee, it looks like it had that step taken") bypass a test. No, you scan the Serial Number and measure the resistance on a go/nogo basis. Measure resistance, if less than 100K ohms = fail.

That way, you now only KNOW that the bezels are coated, you know the measured value of the resistance and to some measure, the quality of the coating. If a passing value is 101 Kohms and you are consistently reading 500K - 1 Meg ohm - well, then you know you have a good insulation. If you consistently read 102K; then you know your process is marginal.

Pretty simple stuff, actually.
post #254 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

It was as statement of possible cause as evidenced by other similar devices, not of blame.

BTW, how many phones do you know that can drop connections, lower voice quality, and drastically lower data download speeds by simply touching one small spot on the phone with just one small fingertip ? And this small spot is where many people naturally hold a phone. It's because you are detuning the iPhone 4 cellular antenna by touching the wi-fi antenna at the same time. I believe this is a first for a cell phone due to Apple's antenna's design. It's not antenna attenuation that Apple wants us to believe.

The below article is very informative:

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...like-this.html
post #255 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

apple is doomed
its mbp are pieces of recycled dell junk
its ipads are weak copies of kidle
its ipods never were as good as the zune // rio empire

and now a whole country has attacked apple
ireland o ireland
peace at any cost

9

F me brucep is in fine, fine form this past few days. I want that shit he's smoking, man. I want it bad.
post #256 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

F me brucep is in fine, fine form this past few days. I want that shit he's smoking, man. I want it bad.

Seriously. For a while I thought he was going mad, but now I realize it must be the pain killers.
post #257 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

I opted to keep my phone number, and simply port it over. When you are married with grandkids - it's far wiser to port your number rather than send a flurry of emails out (that never get read) and then have the kids wonder why they can't get ahold of you.

Understood, but you don't have to port the number right away. I still have my old number on my T-Mobile phone, and a new (temporary) number on the new iPhone. When I'm comfortable with the new service, I can port my old number over and cancel the T-Mobile account.

It may even be possible to port the number right away, but keep the old account open, in which case the number could be ported back again if the new phone doesn't work out. I did that once before, but I would check with the carrier first to see how they would handle it.

Well anyway, I hope this is helpful to others who haven't switched yet.
post #258 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

You live with 3GS or lose your iOS apps. That's your options if you don't trust Apple to fix the problem. ITunes being a closed shop has always carried the risk that Apple could drop the ball down the line. You have gambled and lost.

Alternatively, you and everyone else who are having this problem (and if you read some message boards, I assume it's millions of people!) should take back your phones and wait. There is not a company in the world wont react quickly to falling profits.

Please explain how this is "millions of people" when Apple recently stated that they have only sold 1.7 million phones. Assuming they have sold another few 100k phones since that announcement, we have to then assume that every single phone user has complained to someone posting on the message boards. This is purely ridiculous. Could it be tens of thousands of users? Sure. Maybe even a couple 100k, but millions? Get real, and at least give your exaggeration a bit of a reality check first.
post #259 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

I opted to keep my phone number, and simply port it over. When you are married with grandkids - it's far wiser to port your number rather than send a flurry of emails out (that never get read) and then have the kids wonder why they can't get ahold of you.

When you port; you have no option to 'try out' the iPhone - you switch and within minutes, the old phone is dead.

You don't have to port your number immediately. You get a number assigned to your new phone. When you want to port the number from your old phone to your new phone, you tell your new carrier to do it and they do it then.
post #260 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

BTW, how many phones do you know that can drop connections, lower voice quality, and drastically lower data download speeds by simply touching one small spot on the phone with just one small fingertip ? And this small spot is where many people naturally hold a phone. It's because you are detuning the iPhone 4 cellular antenna by touching the wi-fi antenna at the same time. I believe this is a first for a cell phone due to Apple's antenna's design. It's not antenna attenuation that Apple wants us to believe.

The below article is very informative:

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...like-this.html

Did you bother to read it yourself.

Perhaps we should all sit back take some expert, although not with the new iPhone until the author gets one, advice:
Quote:
Now I want to rant a bit about the "experimental method" people have been using. The iPhone 4 has been out for roughly 24 hours before people were publishing the results of "tests" proving that it had inferior performance. At my company, when I get to hook my fancy laboratory gear up to my client's equipment in very controlled circumstances I can't do it that fast. Folks, there are a couple of reasons that you need to give this product some time before jumping to conclusions.


And that is only what I have been saying all along.
post #261 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Did you bother to read it yourself.

Perhaps we should all sit back take some expert, although not with the new iPhone until the author gets one, advice:
And that is only what I have been saying all along.

Oh, I read it. Several times in fact. The problem is Apple's denial a problem exists. In fact in a sense, they acknowledge the issue by saying avoid touching this spot or get a case.
post #262 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

BTW, how many phones do you know that can drop connections, lower voice quality, and drastically lower data download speeds by simply touching one small spot on the phone with just one small fingertip ? And this small spot is where many people naturally hold a phone. It's because you are detuning the iPhone 4 cellular antenna by touching the wi-fi antenna at the same time. I believe this is a first for a cell phone due to Apple's antenna's design. It's not antenna attenuation that Apple wants us to believe.

The below article is very informative:

http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...like-this.html

OK! I found the fix! I found the fix for 4G signal loss! Here is the way to use the phone so you don't "hold it wrong" Straight from Apple Discussions!
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....4921&tstart=15

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post #263 of 317
Looks like Apple is taking the "Bad Cop" approach:



http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ng-procedures/
post #264 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post


The problem we have here is that most of the comments are hearsay. In fact, most of the complaints here are made by people who don't have an iPhone 4, including two of the most vocal anti-Apple members who have posted over 1/8 of the 240 blogs.

That's an odd statement. I can reproduce the problem easily. I just have to stand in a place with slightly imperfect reception (inside any building, for the most part). Start a call, hold an index finger in the right place. Voice will begin to break up immediately, and the call will drop 10-15 seconds later.

Data does the same thing.

A case fixes it.

This isn't just a software bar scaling issue, it is a critically nasty design flaw with a fairly simple (although I've yet to find an iphone 4 case I like). They MIGHT be able to fix it in software via some kind of algorithm that detects the issue and adjusts the radios to compensate. Maybe.
post #265 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Looks like Apple is taking the "Bad Cop" approach:



http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ng-procedures/

I like how they added:

Quote:
c. If you are experiencing this on your iPhone 3GS, avoid covering the bottom-right side with your hand.

Sweet touch. They want to make it appear this is a common issue in many phones. Trouble is, it appears the iPhone 4 is the only phone where one simple fingertip touch in one small spot will wreck complete havoc on the antennas. I don't believe the iPhone 3GS (which I own) or any other phone is anywhere near that sensitive. Why ? Because the iPhone 4 is the only phone that has two external antennas that can be touched together when naturally holding the phone.
post #266 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by moofrank View Post

That's an odd statement. I can reproduce the problem easily. I just have to stand in a place with slightly imperfect reception (inside any building, for the most part). Start a call, hold an index finger in the right place. Voice will begin to break up immediately, and the call will drop 10-15 seconds later.

Data does the same thing.

A case fixes it.

This isn't just a software bar scaling issue, it is a critically nasty design flaw with a fairly simple (although I've yet to find an iphone 4 case I like). They MIGHT be able to fix it in software via some kind of algorithm that detects the issue and adjusts the radios to compensate. Maybe.

I never ever said it doesn't happen!

The issue is that the same assholes, i.e., they don't have the device, profess to be experts. They highjack the thread and anybody that says anything contrary to their tripe is defiled.

Take a look at the list of people on the site at anyone time. You are lucky if more that a dozen or so are there. How can one determine the extent of the problem or consider it a problem when the same, or even two, dozen or so souls who actually have the iPhone are actually reporting it.

Just because you can produce appears not to represent the norm. And certainly one can't judge by the people that visit here.
post #267 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Oh, I read it. Several times in fact. The problem is Apple's denial a problem exists. In fact in a sense, they acknowledge the issue by saying avoid touching this spot or get a case.

Not such thing. Jobs or no one else from Apple has denied or confirmed anything.
post #268 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Not such thing. Jobs or no one else from Apple has denied or confirmed anything.

Hmmm, so Apple's official response of avoid touching that spot or buy a case isn't confirming there is an issue with touching that spot ? No other phone is that sensitive to a simple touch of one fingertip.
post #269 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

It is not all that obvious. We know that the white version is delayed because of manufacturing
problems. We also know that many phones shipped with the screen bonding substance insufficiently cured, causing yellowish blotches on some screens. We don't know how many lots of black iPhones were rejected, because of spot checks. We don't know how extensive and well designed the final tests were. Finally, a certain portion of all manufacturing runs makes it out the door with defects. We don't have accurate statistics on the prevalence of the issue for iPhones, so
we can't say with certainty that it is excessive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

I guess being a genius has it's drawbacks.

When you make a non-conductive finish, the out-going test would be a resistance measurement step prior to going into final assembly. You NEVER ever (EVER!) allow something like a human's 'opinion' ("Gee, it looks like it had that step taken") bypass a test. No, you scan the Serial Number and measure the resistance on a go/nogo basis. Measure resistance, if less than 100K ohms = fail.

That way, you now only KNOW that the bezels are coated, you know the measured value of the resistance and to some measure, the quality of the coating. If a passing value is 101 Kohms and you are consistently reading 500K - 1 Meg ohm - well, then you know you have a good insulation. If you consistently read 102K; then you know your process is marginal.

Pretty simple stuff, actually.

And how does any of that refute anything of quinney's? He never said anything about human testing. Are you positive that your automated conductance test has to be completed on fully cured bonding? Or is it that the far more likely case, the automated lot testing is done after a specified time where the electrical and adhesive properties have adequately set even though the VOCs haven't all evaporated?

It is not uncommon for manufacturing processes to pass testing with some pre-known cosmetic changes still in process, such as off gassing and final adhesive curing. Many epoxies pass strength and hardness tests within minutes, yet continue to cure for days and display minor cosmetic changes in that time which have no effect on the passing rate during the testing.

It's far more likely some production engineer under-estimated the storage and shipping time that would be available for the bonding substance to clear up. So production got pushed to the consumer a couple days faster than the necessary cosmetic curing time. Not first string varsity work, but not end of the world either.
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post #270 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Hmmm, so Apple's official response of avoid touching that spot or buy a case isn't confirming there is an issue with touching that spot ? No other phone is that sensitive to a simple touch of one fingertip.

Actually at my desk my 3GS. Signal strength inside sucks. It will register data, but not calls when it is in my pocket, get data and calls when sitting on my desk - until I touch the black part on the back. I've had the problem for almost two years and have always known it's a combination of signal strength and body contact. Anyone that has ever adjusted TV rabbit ears or a portable radio antenna knows this implicitly, why on Earth would it have changed with phones?
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post #271 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Actually at my desk my 3GS. Signal strength inside sucks. It will register data, but not calls when it is in my pocket, get data and calls when sitting on my desk - until I touch the black part on the back. I've had the problem for almost two years and have always known it's a combination of signal strength and body contact. Anyone that has ever adjusted TV rabbit ears or a portable radio antenna knows this implicitly, why on Earth would it have changed with phones?

Problem is you already stated your signal sucks at your location. And of course putting it in your pocket, next to your entire body makes it even worse. That's true of most any cell phone. But when you have a good signal, a simple touch of one fingertip in one critical spot does not wreck havoc on a 3GS. At least it doesn't on my 3GS, or any other phone I owned. A completely different scenario then the iPhone 4 issue.
post #272 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Hmmm, so Apple's official response of avoid touching that spot or buy a case isn't confirming there is an issue with touching that spot ? No other phone is that sensitive to a simple touch of one fingertip.

So if the answer to your question is yes, then they weren't denying it.

Like every issue that is raised on Apple's products, they immediately go into investigate mode. If you think that Apple is not sensitive to what is being purported you really have a lot to learn. Heck, you never get satisfaction rates in the upper 90's by not doing so.

What Apple doesn't do is rush in at the drop of a hat. If there is an issue, they look for the root cause. They will fix it or replace it and virtually in every case I have seen since 1984, the only people that still complain are those that never had the problem or those who wished they had the product to get the problem.

How anybody can listen to a few jerks keep telling what the problem is and how to fix it while disregarding the experts who say they can't without more information is beyond me.
post #273 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

So if the answer to your question is yes, then they weren't denying it.

Like every issue that is raised on Apple's products, they immediately go into investigate mode. If you think that Apple is not sensitive to what is being purported you really have a lot to learn. Heck, you never get satisfaction rates in the upper 90's by not doing so.

What Apple doesn't do is rush in at the drop of a hat. If there is an issue, they look for the root cause. They will fix it or replace it and virtually in every case I have seen since 1984, the only people that still complain are those that never had the problem or those who wished they had the product to get the problem.

How anybody can listen to a few jerks keep telling what the problem is and how to fix it while disregarding the experts who say they can't without more information is beyond me.

Apple is already telling their support they won't fix it. They are telling their customers to avoid touching that spot or buy a case. That it's a normal condition. That's their official stance. No fix. No warranty service. Did you not see the leaked Apple memo to it's employees ?
post #274 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Problem is you already stated your signal sucks. And of course putting it in your pocket, next to your entire body makes it even worse. But when you have a good signal, a simple touch of one fingertip in one critical spot does not wreck havoc on a 3GS. At least it doesn't on mine. A completely different scenario then the iPhone 4 issue.

I agree....My 3GS never had a problem......I could hold it anyway I wanted and never lost a signal or dropped a call.
I can hold my 4G in my hand EXACTLY like Steve Jobs demonstrated in his keynote presentation and the 4G will gradually loose bars then go to "No Service".
I didn't have this problem with my 3GS or my sons 3G only on the 4G.

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post #275 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Apple is already telling their support they won't fix it. They are telling their customers to avoid touching that spot or buy a case. That it's a normal condition. That's their official stance. No fix. No warranty service. Did you not see the leaked Apple memo to it's employees ?

hold on...wait a minute.
Do you know for sure what Apple's Official stance is?
How do you know? Did they have a press release with that info?
Is it on their website? Do you have official Apple documentation proving it?
How do you know the memo that was posted was real?
Beacsue someone posted on a blog that they got it from an apple support person?
That does not make it offcial! :-) That makes it very dubious.......

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post #276 of 317
Please excuse if someone else has already posted this:

http://www.networkworld.com/news/201...p.html?hpg1=bn

It's from a neutral party. Anyone and everyone who has either had problems or is concerned about them should read this before doing any more posting on the subject. It is a fine overview with links for those who want geeky detail. Not all of it is new to this discussion, but it does pull it all together authoritatively IMHO.

If, after reading it, you think I am overstating its relevance and usefulness, please post a response so that others may benefit from your take on it, and perhaps not waste their time going to it.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #277 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekdad View Post

hold on...wait a minute.
Do you know for sure what Apple's Official stance is?
How do you know? Did they have a press release with that info?
Is it on their website? Do you have official Apple documentation proving it?
How do you know the memo that was posted was real?
Beacsue someone posted on a blog that they got it from an apple support person?
That does not make it offcial! :-) That makes it very dubious.......

So now you are claiming that memo is not real. Fair enough, possible. But go the official apple forums. Their customers are claiming they are receiving the exact same response from Apple as stated in this memo. Made up stories and posts too ? Possible. But there is enough writing on the wall for me.
post #278 of 317
When I came back from lunch today, my screen saver word was "punitive".

Is this a sign of things to come?
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #279 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

F me brucep is in fine, fine form this past few days. I want that shit he's smoking, man. I want it bad.

Me too! brucep, stop bogarting! Pass it around, dude!
Pity the agnostic dyslectic. They spend all their time contemplating the existence of dog.
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post #280 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

So now you are claiming that memo is not real. Fair enough, possible. But go the official apple forums. Their customers are claiming they are receiving the exact same response as stated in this memo. Made up stories and posts too ? Possible. But there is enough writing on the wall for me.

That is great that that is enough for you.........
I too experience the signal loss issue with my 4G. BUT based on what is coming from Apple I have no idea what their "official" stance is...no one does. They have not announced it. We can't proclaim to know what Apple's offcial stance is until they announce it......

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