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Wireless experts weigh in on iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 6

post #201 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson View Post

Has anyone bothered to include the height & weight of the testers in their results of iPhone4 signal testing? Or maybe Body Mass Index? It seems like the density and thickness of any surface obstructing the wireless signals may affect the results. Skeletor Steve Jobs may never have any signal loss since he is so thin & frail, but your average American fatty might see problems, and a sumo wrestler might not get any signal at all.

You might actually be on to something here, but I doubt the stats you are talking about would be very useful. I think this is really going to have more to do with the physiology and composition of the hands involved rather than physical fitness. Looking at the results from the Anand piece though, I would guess that you are going to get proportionate results regardless of the makeup of any specific hand. Some NBA star is generally going to create more attenuation than say a 5'2" 110 lbs woman, that's simply the nature of the problem. However, the proportional difference from phone to phone should be relatively the same regardless of who's paws you use.
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post #202 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

If Apple can't resolve the problem by a software fix, mechanically modifying or replacing the antenna, they will recall and replace the product, or refund it accordingly.

But Apple is claiming there is no issue. They claim this is normal for a cell phone. And no warranty work will be done for this issue. So why do they need to resolve anything ?
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post #203 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple is claiming there is no issue. This is normal for a cell phone. And no warranty work will be done for this issue. So why do they need to resolve anything ?

Oh, give it a break. Yes, there are some real issues, but there's no reason for this continual nonsense posting. Give them a chance to determine what exactly the issues are and see what they do. One week isn't enough time.

Continual posting like this indicates that you are either in the midst of a psychotic break over the issue, or that your only purpose is to slam Apple on any pretense available. It certainly doesn't contribute anything to understanding or resolving the issue.

By the way, do you actually even own an iPhone 4? What exactly is the root of your frenzied anger on the subject?
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post #204 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Sorry! But, I quoted your post for a reason-- not that you suggested firings, but you suggested that "fired" employees wouldn't sue or blog!



You are, likely, correct that fired employees wouldn't sue or blog in a very competitive job market!

However, these are relatively specialized "expert" jobs in a small tightly-knit, networked, technical community with several back-channels! Any former Apple Engineers coming available would surely be noticed... Like the Palm employees leaving HP.

.

There are wrongful lawsuits filed by Palm employees?

Except for one, I haven't heard of anybody being fired at BP in the last few months and I am sure a lot of folks are monitoring them by the second.
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post #205 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

make a case to sell for $29 that will pull a fast one over each and every customer. That is absurd!

Apple has already stated that the customer should buy a case if they have this issue. Don't you think Apple should be including these covers for free with the iPhone ? It's obvious this phone has an issue.
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post #206 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I mentioned this in another thread,
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...&postcount=204 but I think it's worth mentioning it again here.

Some of the "dropped call" issues may have nothing to do with the antenna, but may be related to the known issues with the proximity sensor.

I haven't experienced any problems with the proximity sensor. I can take the phone away from my ear quickly and move it back quickly with no issues. When my calls fail "call failed" pops up on the screen. My home landline also disconnects the call right before my iPhone which then a few seconds later goes to "no service". Others may well have had issues, but luckily not me. Thanks for pointing it out though.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #207 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Oh, give it a break. Yes, there are some real issues, but there's no reason for this continual nonsense posting. Give them a chance to determine what exactly the issues are and see what they do. One week isn't enough time.

But Apple is not saying they are investigating any issues. Or just remaining quiet. They say there are no issues. That's the issue that is pissing people off.
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post #208 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Apple has already stated that the customer should buy a case if they have this issue. Don't you think Apple should be including these covers for free with the iPhone ? It's obvious this phone has an issue.

Yes they should and it's outrageous they haven't.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #209 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple is claiming there is no issue. They claim this is normal for a cell phone. And no warranty work will be done for this issue. So why do they need to resolve anything ?

I ask again, show me the evidence were it implicitly show that Apple claimed "there is no issue." Or that no warranty work will be done.

If it is an antenna issue, Apple will be required to go back to the Government FCC approved laboratories and retest the iPHone before submission or face a government forced recall. And until Apple is able to hone in on the problem specifically, there can't resolve it.

Is it a design, materials, manufacturing, packaging, firmware or software problem? Is it the antenna itself? Is it the proximity sensor? Or is it something that is attached to it? Who knows? Certainly nobody here or anybody else at this point.

And anybody that thinks that Apple doesn't care is an idiot.
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post #210 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple is not saying they are investigating any issues. Or just remaining quiet. They say there are no issues. That's the issue that is pissing people off.

They aren't saying that they aren't investigating any issues, and if they were, but hadn't reached conclusions, one would expect them to remain quiet until they do. And they have not said there are no issues either. You're hysterical. You're getting more hysterical by the moment. And your assertions are getting wilder by the moment too.

Is there someone there with you? Just ask them to slap you really hard across the face. Maybe that will snap you back to reality.
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post #211 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

I ask again, show me the evidence were it implicitly show that Apple claimed "there is no issue." Or that no warranty work will be done.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...reception.html
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post #212 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

And they have not said there are no issues either.

What does this imply ?

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ng-procedures/
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post #213 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Or that no warranty work will be done.

Apple have made it completely clear to me, almost text book to what that leaked memo to staff read, that they will not replace the phone over antenna issues caused by holding the phone in the usual manner. I guess I could go 50 plus miles to the nearest Apple store and see what happens but on the phone they stated that position clearly as did their technician in level 2.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #214 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...reception.html

Sorry, that's not an official Apple press release. That's AI saying they heard a rumor that someone said...

See, your capacity to make reasoned judgments is already gone. You'll be trying to hurt yourself shortly.
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post #215 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

We don't know if a coating will solve the issue. Nor do we know about the durability of a coating. If a coating will truly solve the issue, and be durable, Apple should be doing this right now !!! Why aren't they doing it now then ?

It would be an admission of a flaw. A coating would probably help, might wear off eventually for some rough handling cases. Most people are expected to get a bumper/case anyway and many are in a high signal strength location where it is a not-issue.

Some people say that they can make calls where they used to be unable to. If you know how to hold the phone for optimal reception, when in a marginal situation and need to make a call, just hold it lightly. When in a high signal zone hold it any way you like.

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post #216 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:56pm
Anand the shrimp is far from an expert when it doesn't come to the shrimp fest. He's a kid with lots of time on his hands.

Regardless of this, I think apple did mess this phone up big time. My most important worry is a health one, that is that when the signal degrades that equates with more S.A.R., at lest that's my uninoformed opinion. Even if this is not the case apple has a stunning device with the best and most mature mobile os. It's a shame about the shitty antenna (or whatever combination of factors) design but we must accept the fact that even apple is not infallible despite the great talent working for them and the impecable leadership.

This to me is a test they were bound to be put in eventually and they should fix this, quickly, even if it means a partial product recall. Being good at something, means overcoming the hurdles too, and anyway we cut it this is a big hurdle. But if they handle this properly they could even strengthen their reputation.
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post #217 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Sorry, that's not an official Apple press release. That's AI saying they heard a rumor that someone said...

See, your capacity to make reasoned judgments is already gone. You'll be trying to hurt yourself shortly.

Hmmm, So I guess all the new reports from customers that state Apple now refuses to replace their phone because Apple says it's a normal issue, is rumor and false too ? Could be false. Believe what you want to believe.
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post #218 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Pissed at what? That sounds a lot like you are saying the iPhone 4 is flawed by design (despite not affecting all users) and that it was the antenna designers that forced Apple to make the antenna external. Does any of that really seem likely to you?

I'm with you on this. I'd be surprised if the antenna designers had not pointed out the fact that there will be attenuation when the antenna is held, and I suspect Apple decided that the benefits of the case being the antenna (and the data that this article is based on shows there is a benefit to the iPhone 4 design, except when held in a certain way) outweighed the negatives of people holding it in a certain way having problems. Maybe they did create the bumper to get around the problem, but I and everyone else here doesn't know for sure.

However, we're definitely adding 2+2 and getting 7 if we think the fact that Apple are hiring antenna designers means they have just fired the ones they have. Apple are a company both in the wireless industry and growing in the wireless industry. I'd be amazed if they are not always on the look out for good antenna guys.

I bet they have some jobs posted for OS programmers as well - any speculation that they have just sacked all their OS people?
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post #219 of 376
6/30/10 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

Yes but the test pretty much prove Apples point . . .

Perfectly valid points. My heart is with you, but my head gets in the way a bit.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #220 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Wow. I am not sure what side you are on. But the way you sound,

I would argue with you vehemently that no one at Apple was aware of any antenna issues other than what was known about the state of the art at that time. Or that the bumpers were designed to address that issue.

Perhaps one should become a little more familiar with the FCC filing regulations. Such knowledge at the time of submission would require that Apple falsify the findings submitted by Federal Government approved laboratories; which would be a criminal offense.

It is unbelievable some of the comments inferring that Apple knew about the issue before they were brought to market, are purposely attempting to hide to problem or placing the blame on the consumer. There are laws against that to, especially as governed by a Federal agency.

If Apple can't resolve the problem by a software fix, mechanically modifying or replacing the antenna, they will recall and replace the product, or refund it accordingly.

Thank heavens that has been their policy for years, and one that has relegated Apple to such high levels of consumer confidence for their products, as well as their service and support.

Their is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

I am really not on a "side".

I was [unsuccessfully] trying to illustrate that how ridiculous the OP was: suggesting that Apple fired the engineers (on the spot) when the problem became public, and immediately served up some job openings.

Quote:
If apple is savvy they:

1) would have fired the non-performing engineers months ago when they first detected the problem (when they decided to sell a bumper case)

I am aware of the FCC regulations, lead-times, and ramifications of falsifying or withholding evidence-- it can cost executives their jobs.

I was trying to refute the OPs assertions with a few logical reasons and think that the issues you bring up, while correct, would have complicated the discussion (IMO).


I have personally owned at least one of every Apple product since 1978, except Lisa and Newton.

I have done business with Apple as:
-- A Customer;
-- A Dealer (we owned some computer stores);
-- A Supplier- we sold/installed a lot of products to Apple at all levels CEO on down, and varying levels of complexity (LANS ca 1980);
-- A Developer on a joint project: POST (Point Of Sale Terminal) software using Mac.

Apple has always treated my/us fairly and honorably, and I suspect they always will.

Apple makes excellent products and they support what they make... as well as anyone in the industry (whom I've dealt with).

I admire what Apple does and how they do it-- the are an inspiration to much of what I hold dear.

I think enough of AAPL that they are a significant part of my portfolio.

So, yeah, I am an Apple Fan... but I'm on my side-- for selfish reasons.

.
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– Alan Kay –
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post #221 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

I ask again, show me the evidence were it implicitly show that Apple claimed "there is no issue." Or that no warranty work will be done.

If it is an antenna issue, Apple will be required to go back to the Government FCC approved laboratories and retest the iPHone before submission or face a government forced recall. And until Apple is able to hone in on the problem specifically, there can't resolve it.

Is it a design, materials, manufacturing, packaging, firmware or software problem? Is it the antenna itself? Is it the proximity sensor? Or is it something that is attached to it? Who knows? Certainly nobody here or anybody else at this point.

And anybody that thinks that Apple doesn't care is an idiot.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=110976

They do not care. Steve Jobs is a douche. *CONFIRMED*

Their secrecy has finally screwed them. I hope they stop being so friggin' secret but I somehow doubt it.

Jobs has claimed there is no issue. In writing. Didn't you hear about his e-mail? It was on CNN.

Also, people here DO know what is wrong. A lot of electrical engineers are also Mac users and have posted insights. On a positive note, All of us that are following this issue are getting RF 101. There is a reason no one else has an antenna designed like iPhone 4. Because exposing it and allowing people to touch it is stupid.

iPhone 4 seems like a complete clusterf*ck. I was absolutely ready to buy. Now I might just wait another 6 months for a VZW iPhone or get an Android. Proximity sensor issues, spots, ugh. Has almost as many issues as my new MBP i5. WTF with Apple QA/QC, we pay enough for good QA with Apple products. \
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post #222 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


What is even more interesting is your history on AI:

Join Date
06-30-2010
Total Posts
2

.

Out of curiosity what's the number of posts required before somebody has standing credibility at AI?
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post #223 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

I'm with you on this. I'd be surprised if the antenna designers had not pointed out the fact that there will be attenuation when the antenna is held, and I suspect Apple decided that the benefits of the case being the antenna (and the data that this article is based on shows there is a benefit to the iPhone 4 design, except when held in a certain way) outweighed the negatives of people holding it in a certain way having problems.

I think the antenna got pushed outside. They wanted it thinner, with a larger battery, so the antenna no longer fit inside. The whole design is a series of compromises. They weighed the pluses and minuses and arrived at their conclusion. In many situations the reception is better than it was before, and others, possibly worse.

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post #224 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

they could even strengthen their reputation.

Steve Jobs is on the way to ruining Apple's reputation for quality. Between iPhone 4 and other recent hardware issues (eg new MBPs). But with mistakes like these it's more how you handle the issue than the issue itself. His e-mails were a really, really huge mistake. Blame the customer. Oops.

This may approach the scale of Toyota. Will Apple go out of business? No. But their reputation will take a hit, if only for a while. Apple and Steve Jobs either have to do a 180 on this and give out free bumpers or a credit to a case, and also get on the ball with a permanent fix, or AAPL's reputation will take the hit. I'm disappointed and surprised so far at how this is being handled.
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post #225 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

... Believe what you want to believe.

That does seem to be your credo.

Sorry, but hysterical whining is not going to resolve anything. So just settle down and come back to earth.
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post #226 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

That does seem to be your credo.

Sorry, but hysterical whining is not going to resolve anything. So just settle down and come back to earth.

Oh, so no valid logical response ? Except to try to put me down ? Hmm
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post #227 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

What does this imply ?

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ng-procedures/

Nothing.

Until Apple can unequivocally determine the cause, if one, I would doubt that Apple would unilaterally offer fixes that may be construed by the FCC as a placative or cosmetic solution.

There are laws. It is as simple as that.
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post #228 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Hmmm, So I guess all the new reports from customers that state Apple now refuses to replace their phone because Apple says it's a normal issue, is rumor and false too ? Could be false. Believe what you want to believe.

Apple is not denying the issue, they just don't define the issue the same way you do. They see it differently. I know that's upsetting. With so many phones out there the truth will out. Getting overly worked up in the meantime won't help.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #229 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Oh, so no valid logical response ? Except to try to put me down ? Hmm

Yes, there is no logical response to hysterical ranting.
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post #230 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yes, there is no logical response to hysterical ranting.

So I guess there is also no logical response for someone as blind as you.
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post #231 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

So I guess there is also no logical response to someone so blind as you.

Oh stop it you two. It's getting childish.
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post #232 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

So Apple is going to hire more people when they already hired people who worked on the new antenna system?

Exactly how many people should work on an antenna? I'm sure it's a coincidencethat it's a tipoff especially when the dates coincide with the public acknowledgment of the antenna problems.

Knowing Jobs I'm sure he's the type to keep people around after they failed at their responsibilities.

Emphasis mine! Do you know Steve Jobs? Have you ever met Steve Jobs? Do you know what type Steve Jobs is? Do you know how Steve Jobs treats employees that fail at their responsibilities?

I have met Steve Jobs on several occasions. I do not know Steve Jobs. I have heard a lot of stories about Steve Jobs that may, or may not, be true,

Here's one opinion I have of Steve Jobs: IMO, Steve Jobs has done 3 great things at Apple:

1) Starting Apple with WOZ and Mike Markkula
2) Leaving Apple
3) Returning to Apple

Here's another opinion: Steve Jobs has set the standard for attracting and retaining top quality people and exploiting their creativity to the benefit of all!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #233 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

Out of curiosity what's the number of posts required before somebody has standing credibility at AI?

Anywhere between 1 and 10 000. It depends entirely on the tone and the content of the posts. If you post illiterate, ignorant, shit stirring crap and still make it to 10 000 you get credibility for endurance, tenaciousness and a little for just managing to stay stupid for so long. But post intelligent commentary you get credibility right off the bat.
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post #234 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:31pm
Yet, you made a conclusion on the basis of that limited testing i.e. that NO OTHER phone models exhibit this behaviour.

Which I'm sorry to say is rather poor science.

In an area of low reception a 17.7dB drop, as was shown in the Nexus, could quite easily drop a network connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardGaywood View Post

Ouch. I did what I could with the tools that I had, and (in my defence) I was upfront that my testing was limited and what those limits were.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #235 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:32pm
I've had an iPhone 4 for nearly a week. Yes, touching the magic spot causes the bars to decrease, steadily. I never had the patience to take that all the way to No Service. That was fun, but then I put the phone into the Pixelskin case I'd used with the 3G. Don't want my $300 phone turning into a $700 phone when it falls out of my pocket.

While waiting in The Line, I noticed that all the iPhones around me were in cases.

Does no one remember the reception issues with the 3G? I do. I remember holding my phone beside the iPhone of a friend, who had full bars of 3G while I had no service. That convinced me it was a hardware defect. Shows what I know. A later update completely cured my phone. Maybe that's what will happen here. For me, it doesn't matter, as my phone (in a case) works absolutely great.
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post #236 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Well that's it folks. Plagen says there isn't a problem! Time to pack it up and move on!

thatz not what he said at all, don't strawman him...
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post #237 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz View Post

...and here's the expert testimony needed for that lawsuit.

I'd suggest that Apple start "appeasing" those that complain with free bumpers now and foregoing the revenue before that lawsuit takes off and they are forced to give up free bumpers and compensate those that had to pay contract termination fees and now want out of their current AT&T/iPhone contract.

That would be exactly the wrong thing to do, unless they knowingly and deliberately broke the law.

If they did nothing wrong, appeasement is counter-productive.

If you have ever run a business, you should understand this!

I'm talking about Corporate policy here, not the discretionary decision by a Apple Store manager to give a free bumper to an individual customer for whatever reason he see as valid.

Unfortunately, lawsuits are a cost of doing business! Just as Apple has Engineers to design antennas, they have Lawyers to protect their interests... Let the lawyers earn their pay!

,
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #238 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here's another opinion: Steve Jobs has set the standard for attracting and retaining top quality people and exploiting their creativity to the benefit of all!

.

He also set the standard for repelling top quality people. While Apple products are quite awesome, that work culture at Apple is very unattractive.
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post #239 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by galore View Post

He also set the standard for repelling top quality people. While Apple products are quite awesome, that work culture at Apple is very unattractive.

Um, how do you figure this? What top-quality people has Apple "repelled" recently?

People can have differences of opinions and go their separate ways, not everyone is going to get along with everyone swimmingly. If Apple were "repelling" top quality people, they wouldn't be a leader in technology, and Apple would have gone bankrupt by now.
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post #240 of 376
6/30/10 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple is not saying they are investigating any issues. Or just remaining quiet. They say there are no issues. That's the issue that is pissing people off.

What do you think "Stay Tuned" means?

I infer that means: We understand there is an issue-- we don't have an answer, yet... but we're working on it!

Be patient! We are less than 7 days into the release of the product... even God got more time than that!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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