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Wireless experts weigh in on iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 8

post #281 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

It doesn't say that anywhere? Maybe you missed:

"From my day of testing, I've determined that the iPhone 4 performs much better than the 3GS in situations where signal is very low, at -113 dBm (1 bar). Previously, dropping this low all but guaranteed that calls would drop, fail to be placed, and data would no longer be transacted at all. I can honestly say that I've never held onto so many calls and data simultaneously on 1 bar at -113 dBm as I have with the iPhone 4, so it's readily apparent that the new baseband hardware is much more sensitive compared to what was in the 3GS. The difference is that reception is massively better on the iPhone 4 in actual use."

Hmmm, there's no question the iPhone 4 antenna performs better then the iPhone 3GS. Until you factor in the massive antenna attenuation if you touch the wrong spot. Did you not see their chart ? That is the issue.

Also in his next paragraph, he refers to using the bumper during this day in testing. Which of course fixes this issue.

Clearly you are not understanding the entire article. The below paragraph that was in their final wrapup of the review, gives a better picture of their opinion -
Quote:
The main downside to the iPhone 4 is the obvious lapse in Apple's engineering judgment. The fact that Apple didn't have the foresight to coat the stainless steel antenna band with even a fraction of an ounce worth of non-conductive material either tells us that Apple doesn't care or that it simply doesn't test thoroughly enough. The latter is a message we've seen a few times before with OS X issues, the iPhone 4 simply reinforces it. At the bare minimum Apple should give away its bumper case with every iPhone 4 sold. The best scenario is for Apple to coat the antenna and replace all existing phones with a revised model.The ideal situation is very costly for Apple but it is the right thing to do. Plus it's not like Apple doesn't have the resources to take care of its customers.
post #282 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes but the customers are taking the hit. That's wrong, and simply on a PR level it's bad for Apple. The issues are too severe to play games with. Apple could have saved some face if it at least had offered to help those experiencing issues by offering them a free case to help reduce the problem. I'm sure SJ and his lawyers understand that but they're taking the harder approach. They are betraying their customers, period. This is the first time I personally have experienced bad customer service from Apple all the other times they were all too happy to help.

Yeah, I hear you on this... except customers are lining up to take the hit! I believe if Apple thought they could make it better with a free case they would do it.

But, as this forum (and several others) suggest, a free case could, easily, make it worse! (and the bumper cases are backordered).

I think we need to let Apple decide what's best for Apple (the company), Apple shareholders, Apple Dealers, and Apple customers. Likely, there are a lot of lawyers, regulators and bloggers just waiting to pounce!

This ain't easy!

.
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post #283 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So, instead, you think that Apple should scurry around throwing out useless 'fixes' every time one of the first 1.7 MILLION iPhone users complains about something?

No. Did I write that somewhere? Show me.

You make much of the "hysteria" of those who think this is a real issue, but maybe you could pause for a moment and analyse the strident nature of your own responses.

But I'm sure you'll just make some personal attack on me and hopefully add me to your ignore list.
post #284 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

The Apple memo says -

That implies to me that they know there is an issue touching the black strip. A spot many people touch when they naturally hold the phone. That is the issue and the flaw.



Here's your post:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1

What does this imply ?

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...ng-procedures/

Don't you understand the English language and the way the world works:

The title of the article on the site you reference says: "Leaked: Apple’s internal iPhone 4 antenna troubleshooting procedures"

Where is there any proof of that? That the memo exists? That it was issued by Apple?

Just because you read something in a newspaper or on the web, do you believe that it is true? Don't you ever question that assertions without substantiation are not facts-- only assertions?

Is there anyone out there that would gain from the iPhone 4 getting some bad press?

Who might they be?

How can they maximize the effect of this bad press?

Do you ever consider that the publisher of the article/site might have an agenda?


Even my 14-year-old granddaughter is wiser than that?

.
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post #285 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here's your post:




Don't you understand the English language and the way the world works:

The title of the article on the site you reference says: "Leaked: Apples internal iPhone 4 antenna troubleshooting procedures"

Where is there any proof of that? That the memo exists? That it was issued by Apple?

Just because you read something in a newspaper or on the web, do you believe that it is true? Don't you ever question that assertions without substantiation are not facts-- only assertions?

Is there anyone out there that would gain from the iPhone 4 getting some bad press?

Who might they be?

How can they maximize the effect of this bad press?

Do you ever consider that the publisher of the article/site might have an agenda?


Even my 14-year-old granddaughter is wiser than that?

.

It may not be real, but it likely is because it's almost word for word how the Apple technician I spoke to on Tuesday responded.
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post #286 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here's your post:




Don't you understand the English language and the way the world works:

The title of the article on the site you reference says: "Leaked: Apples internal iPhone 4 antenna troubleshooting procedures"

Where is there any proof of that? That the memo exists? That it was issued by Apple?

Just because you read something in a newspaper or on the web, do you believe that it is true? Don't you ever question that assertions without substantiation are not facts-- only assertions?

Is there anyone out there that would gain from the iPhone 4 getting some bad press?

Who might they be?

How can they maximize the effect of this bad press?

Do you ever consider that the publisher of the article/site might have an agenda?


Even my 14-year-old granddaughter is wiser than that?

.

LOL, and I guess all the people claiming that is the exact same response they are receiving from Apple support are lying too, huh ? Why don't you call Apple Support and see the response you get from them on this issue and report back to us.
post #287 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Just because you read something in a newspaper or on the web, do you believe that it is true? Don't you ever question that assertions without substantiation are not facts-- only assertions?
.

Also, I find your response hilarious. Because a few posts back (post #244) you were quoting what could have been a fake Steve Jobs email. How is that different ? LOL
post #288 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

...I will in the next few days get a case.

I'm massively pleased with the iP4, if I wasn't it would have been an easy decision to just return it. It's just too nice for me to want anything else, despite the problems.


This is pretty much where I am at. I have had some annoying reception problems due to the way I hold the phone. I thought about returning the iPhone 4, but it's not worth better reception if I have to go back to the 3G. And I considered the Droid X (carrier is irrelevant to me), but I just love iOS so much more than Android (I've used both).

So, I got a case. It's simple and looks good, and reception problems are completely gone. I ran speed tests that show equal bandwidth whether I am gripping the phone or it is on the table. There was a HUGE discrepancy before I got the case.

Very happy with this computerphone now.
post #289 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It may not be real, but it likely is because it's almost word for word how the Apple technician I spoke to on Tuesday responded.

I will accept that!

I suspect that the Apple tech was given a "policy" answer that he was allowed to provide-- he did not have an agenda, but I think we all can assume that Apple (the policymaker) does have an agenda!

Based on my 32-year history with Apple, I suspect they are being overly cautious, admitting nothing, until the issue is determined/resolved and a fix implemented. There are legal, regulatory and sound business reasons for this policy,

As to the linked site and article-- I believe their history and agenda should be examined too. It could simply be a matter of getting hits... it could be a lot more?

.
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post #290 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

LOL, and I guess all the people claiming that is the exact same response they are receiving from Apple support are lying too, huh ? Why don't you call Apple Support and see the response you get from them on this issue and report back to us.

I am not having the "problem"-- any call to Apple Support would be gratuitous!

Why don't you quantify "all the people claiming that is the exact same response they are receiving from Apple support".

Any reasonably-substantiated number is acceptable! Out of 2.5 million iPhones, is that number:

-- 250
-- 1,000
-- 1,000,000

Let's focus on how big a problem this is!

Seriously, I sure would like to know!

.
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post #291 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Also, I find your response hilarious. Because a few posts back (post #244) you were quoting what could have been a fake Steve Jobs email. How is that different ? LOL

Ya' got me there! mea culpa.

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post #292 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDraden View Post

This is pretty much where I am at. I have had some annoying reception problems due to the way I hold the phone. I thought about returning the iPhone 4, but it's not worth better reception if I have to go back to the 3G. And I considered the Droid X (carrier is irrelevant to me), but I just love iOS so much more than Android (I've used both).

So, I got a case. It's simple and looks good, and reception problems are completely gone. I ran speed tests that show equal bandwidth whether I am gripping the phone or it is on the table. There was a HUGE discrepancy before I got the case.

Very happy with this computerphone now.

Yep, I haven't owned an Android OS phone, the only one I've seen is the Dell Streak and it felt slow, particularly in the browser and jerky too when scrolling and zooming and double tap didn't seem to function, or if it did, very poorly. The iPhone's screens now even make folders look beautiful, they really, I thought, looked ugly on my old 3G. I believe, but I may be wrong, that Android developers aren't allowing people to download the apps onto the SD cards that make up the bulk of the storage. It has something like 2 GB of memory built in, not much.


My experiments with cases showed it made a big difference where I was, however, where the service got thin, then I still lost signal when I held it normally. At those times then I'll have hold it differently, but on the plus side pages load much, much faster than they had on my 3G when they actually load.
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post #293 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I am not having the "problem"-- any call to Apple Support would be gratuitous!

Why don't you quantify "all the people claiming that is the exact same response they are receiving from Apple support".

Any reasonably-substantiated number is acceptable! Out of 2.5 million iPhones, is that number:

-- 250
-- 1,000
-- 1,000,000

Let's focus on how big a problem this is!

Seriously, I sure would like to know!

.

You are missing my point. You claim that Apple memo could be fake. Fair enough. But yet most of the evidence we have seen so far points to be an accurate document. Yes, I know you don't have the issue. That's great. But go try calling support yourself and see if they don't tell you to hold it differently and avoid touching the seam. The issue, the flaw.
post #294 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I am not having the "problem"-- any call to Apple Support would be gratuitous!

Why don't you quantify "all the people claiming that is the exact same response they are receiving from Apple support".

Any reasonably-substantiated number is acceptable! Out of 2.5 million iPhones, is that number:

-- 250
-- 1,000
-- 1,000,000

Let's focus on how big a problem this is!

Seriously, I sure would like to know!

.

My thinking on the numbers who are effected by these issues is that all the phones are probably the same. My phone has less reception issues when I'm not hot and my hands are dry, though it's still there, just less so, maybe by as much as fifty percent. Given that I would expect the issues to be slightly less in cooler climates than warmer climates, though many, especially in the US, live in air-con bubbles most of the time so that might balance things out. Take any iPhone to where I live and pending on the persons hand perspiration primarily, I would think the same problems would arise if they were on the same network.

I think everyone is being told the same thing by Apple. Certainly my nearest Apple store said the same thing as the technician. I'm sure some people are being given replacements for other issues to mask that the phone is being replaced due to the reception issues to placate certain customers, for whatever reasons, but I would think that's a very small percentage. Apple seems pretty determined about this policy at the moment and for good reason because they know full well replacing the phone will make absolutely no difference and of course could cost them a ton of money.
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post #295 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

No. Did I write that somewhere? Show me.

You make much of the "hysteria" of those who think this is a real issue, but maybe you could pause for a moment and analyse the strident nature of your own responses.

But I'm sure you'll just make some personal attack on me and hopefully add me to your ignore list.

So it's hysterical to ask for evidence rather than anecdotal complaints? You are really confused. Hysteria is all the "the sky is falling because I got fewer bars" whining on this board. My response is simply trying to get people to deal with facts INSTEAD OF hysteria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Hmmm, there's no question the iPhone 4 antenna performs better then the iPhone 3GS. Until you factor in the massive antenna attenuation if you touch the wrong spot. Did you not see their chart ? That is the issue.

Also in his next paragraph, he refers to using the bumper during this day in testing. Which of course fixes this issue.

Clearly you are not understanding the entire article. The below paragraph that was in their final wrapup of the review, gives a better picture of their opinion -

You keep ignoring this paragraph:
"From my day of testing, I've determined that the iPhone 4 performs much better than the 3GS in situations where signal is very low, at -113 dBm (1 bar). Previously, dropping this low all but guaranteed that calls would drop, fail to be placed, and data would no longer be transacted at all. I can honestly say that I've never held onto so many calls and data simultaneously on 1 bar at -113 dBm as I have with the iPhone 4, so it's readily apparent that the new baseband hardware is much more sensitive compared to what was in the 3GS. The difference is that reception is massively better on the iPhone 4 in actual use."

They did not have ANY dropped calls on the iPhone 4 and found that they were able to connect in places that the iPhone 3GS didn't work. So, EVEN WITH the signal attenuation, they still got better connections.

So where's all the evidence of massive numbers of dropped calls that you keep imagining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

{Response to a person asking for factual numbers} You are missing my point. You claim that Apple memo could be fake. Fair enough. But yet most of the evidence we have seen so far points to be an accurate document. Yes, I know you don't have the issue. That's great. But go try calling support yourself and see if they don't tell you to hold it differently and avoid touching the seam. The issue, the flaw.

No, YOU are missing the point. No one has ever denied that some phones have a drop in the number of bars. What you're being asked for is evidence that a significant number of people are experiencing an increase in the number of dropped calls when using the phone normally. You are clearly unable to provide that evidence - or, apparently, even able to understand that factual evidence is.
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post #296 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

My thinking on the numbers who are effected by these issues is that all the phones are probably the same. My phone has less reception issues when I'm not hot and my hands are dry, though it's still there, just less so, maybe by as much as fifty percent. Given that I would expect the issues to be slightly less in cooler climates than warmer climates, though many, especially in the US, live in air-con bubbles most of the time so that might balance things out. Take any iPhone to where I live and pending on the persons hand perspiration primarily, I would think the same problems would arise if they were on the same network.

I think everyone is being told the same thing by Apple. Certainly my nearest Apple store said the same thing as the technician. I'm sure some people are being given replacements for other issues to mask that the phone is being replaced due to the reception issues to placate certain customers, for whatever reasons, but I would think that's a very small percentage. Apple seems pretty determined about this policy at the moment and for good reason because they know full well replacing the phone will make absolutely no difference and of course could cost them a ton of money.

I've been saying since day one to people who have the reproducible signal loss issues whenever the touch the Three-G-Spot* to get a replacement. From a consumer perspective I still hold that as the best option, but from Apple's perspective that may not solve anything.

If you get several defective items in a row you can lose faith in that company or product even if all the items came from the sam batch. If it's a production issue, perhaps they haven't quite pinpointed where the problem starts so they can recall or offer replacements or fixes to those affected model numbers.

If it's a SW fix (for example) for some oddly constructed but not bad TriQuint chip then replacing new phones with the same iOS version wouldn't do much good, and they'd still have to know which models had this TriQuint chip (which may be impossible) so they could know which phones to expect with the issue and which phone not to sell.

As much as we hate it and as much as we think they are reacting slowly this is still only the 7th day (in my country) that the iPhone 4 has been on shelves. Hell, the iPad which launched in April still hasn't gotten a single bug fix update.


* Thanks Applebaum.
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post #297 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I've been saying since day one to people who have the reproducible signal loss issues whenever the touch the Three-G-Spot* to get a replacement. From a consumer perspective I still hold that as the best option, but from Apple's perspective that may not solve anything.

If you get several defective items in a row you can lose faith in that company or product even if all the items came from the sam batch. If it's a production issue, perhaps they haven't quite pinpointed where the problem starts so they can recall or offer replacements or fixes to those affected model numbers.

If it's a SW fix (for example) for some oddly constructed — but not bad — TriQuint chip then replacing new phones with the same iOS version wouldn't do much good, and they'd still have to know which models had this TriQuint chip (which may be impossible) so they could know which phones to expect with the issue and which phone not to sell.

As much as we hate it and as much as we think they are reacting slowly this is still only the 7th day (in my country) that the iPhone 4 has been on shelves. Hell, the iPad which launched in April still hasn't gotten a single bug fix update.


* Thanks Applebaum.

Yes I agree, it could lead to even more angry customers if Apple were to give replacement phones to people knowing that it wasn't even going to solve their reception issues. They're in a tough spot because unless a software fix works, they really owe everybody who wants one a redesigned phone. I wanted a replacement phone before I realized it wouldn't make any difference getting one. Getting a replacement would just waste my time and be needless environmental waste too.


I'm sure Apple doesn't want it's 3G spot getting used.*

*LOL, thanks Applebaum too.
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post #298 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

My thinking on the numbers who are effected by these issues is that all the phones are probably the same. My phone has less reception issues when I'm not hot and my hands are dry, though it's still there, just less so, maybe by as much as fifty percent. Given that I would expect the issues to be slightly less in cooler climates than warmer climates, though many, especially in the US, live in air-con bubbles most of the time so that might balance things out. Take any iPhone to where I live and pending on the persons hand perspiration primarily, I would think the same problems would arise if they were on the same network.

I think everyone is being told the same thing by Apple. Certainly my nearest Apple store said the same thing as the technician. I'm sure some people are being given replacements for other issues to mask that the phone is being replaced due to the reception issues to placate certain customers, for whatever reasons, but I would think that's a very small percentage. Apple seems pretty determined about this policy at the moment and for good reason because they know full well replacing the phone will make absolutely no difference and of course could cost them a ton of money.

Well said!

BTW, love your sig!

.
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post #299 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

So it's hysterical to ask for evidence rather than anecdotal complaints? You are really confused. Hysteria is all the "the sky is falling because I got fewer bars" whining on this board. My response is simply trying to get people to deal with facts INSTEAD OF hysteria.

You say you're asking for evidence, but there's plenty of it, anecdotal, polls and testing results, all over this forum and many other parts of the web. That's evidence. I think the standard you're holding those who say there's a problem to, is that of proof. That's clearly not reasonable, and you yourself certainly haven't presented any proof to the contrary.

Hysteria is somebody writing literally hundreds of posts trying to discredit those whose experience or opinions don't fit with the way he want things to be.

And if everybody had to deal only in facts to contribute here, this website would not exist.
post #300 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yes I agree, it could lead to even more angry customers if Apple were to give replacement phones to people knowing that it wasn't even going to solve their reception issues. They're in a tough spot because unless a software fix works, they really owe everybody who wants one a redesigned phone. I wanted a replacement phone before I realized it wouldn't make any difference getting one. Getting a replacement would just waste my time and be needless environmental waste too.


I'm sure Apple doesn't want it's 3G spot getting used.*

*LOL, thanks Applebaum too.

There was a post on MR about how the micro SIM in the iP4 might be shorting against the SIM tray:

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/30/...mixed-results/

I checked my iP4 with a a magnifying glass and there is a tiny little space between the SIM conductive surface and the tray. (I don't experience the problem).

Then, I checked my 3GS and the SIM conductive surface contacts the tray!


But the 3GS tray is plastic and the iP4 tray is solid, conductive, stainless steel-- part of the Antenna!.

So far, the results of addressing this iP4 SIM card/SIM tray are inconclusive. It could be: Micro SIM misalignment; poorly designed micro SIM tray; poorly produced micro SIM card; nothing.

What I find that is interesting is here is a possibility of poor design concept (SS SIM tray) that probably wouldn't manifest itself (or would have been detected/corrected) in the first handmade "test" models (Apple internal, FCC, etc.).

Later, production tolerances of the trays and the micro SIM cards would, likely, have been looser, and could have resulted in the problem.

I am not trying to paint a rosy scenario, but this is one explanation, if true, that would pass the logic test!

.
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post #301 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Well said!

BTW, love your sig!

.

Thanks.

Have I misinterpreted your sig to infer that Hawaiians are pickpockets?
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post #302 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

There was a post on MR about how the micro SIM in the iP4 might be shorting against the SIM tray:

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/30/...mixed-results/

[...]

I am not trying to paint a rosy scenario, but this is one explanation, if true, that would pass the logic test!

This isn't the first time we've seen the SIM card be the cause for poor reception and dropped calls. I'm leaning away from that as the cause but it's certainly possible.
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post #303 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You keep ignoring this paragraph:
"From my day of testing, I've determined that the iPhone 4 performs much better than the 3GS in situations where signal is very low, at -113 dBm (1 bar). Previously, dropping this low all but guaranteed that calls would drop, fail to be placed, and data would no longer be transacted at all. I can honestly say that I've never held onto so many calls and data simultaneously on 1 bar at -113 dBm as I have with the iPhone 4, so it's readily apparent that the new baseband hardware is much more sensitive compared to what was in the 3GS. The difference is that reception is massively better on the iPhone 4 in actual use."

You are missing their point. They are saying the iPhone 4 can handle low signals better then the iPhone 3GS. That is not the issue. The issue is that when you touch the iPhone 4 on the seam, for many people, the signal gets to a level where it does drop calls. Or the data rate drops dramatically. Also during this part of their test, did he touch it at the seam ? We don't know. Did he have a bumper on ? We don't know. Did he test the data rates ? We don't know.
post #304 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

There was a post on MR about how the micro SIM in the iP4 might be shorting against the SIM tray:

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/30/...mixed-results/

I checked my iP4 with a a magnifying glass and there is a tiny little space between the SIM conductive surface and the tray. (I don't experience the problem).

Then, I checked my 3GS and the SIM conductive surface contacts the tray!


But the 3GS tray is plastic and the iP4 tray is solid, conductive, stainless steel-- part of the Antenna!.

So far, the results of addressing this iP4 SIM card/SIM tray are inconclusive. It could be: Micro SIM misalignment; poorly designed micro SIM tray; poorly produced micro SIM card; nothing.

What I find that is interesting is here is a possibility of poor design concept (SS SIM tray) that probably wouldn't manifest itself (or would have been detected/corrected) in the first handmade "test" models (Apple internal, FCC, etc.).

Later, production tolerances of the trays and the micro SIM cards would, likely, have been looser, and could have resulted in the problem.

I am not trying to paint a rosy scenario, but this is one explanation, if true, that would pass the logic test!

.

I read about this yesterday and quickly pulled out my sim. It certainly looked fine to me. The sim was sitting completely flat and fit snuggly in the space it's in. The end of it has a little bit of a plastic edge that looks like it's how it's meant to be, otherwise it would move about. When I put it back in, not having altered it, nothing had changed. I think Apple would have eagerly leapt on this if it was a widespread problem and to my knowledge they haven't at all.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #305 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

You are missing their point. They are saying the iPhone 4 can handle low signals better then the iPhone 3GS. That is not the issue. The issue is that when you touch the iPhone 4 on the seam, for many people, the signal gets to a level where it does drop calls. Or the data rate drops dramatically. Also during this part of their test, did he touch it at the seam ? We don't know. Did he have a bumper on ? We don't know.

I would have liked to have also seen the readings from putting the phones on a desk, not being touched by a hand at all.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #306 of 376
Apple should have engineered/designed a better solution. Whether it's a clear coating or another way to solve the issue. Apple shouldn't suggest using a bumper as a fix. But they should give one to everyone who spent $200 - $300 for their phone and have to deal with reception issues and have to watch how they hold the phone (which is ridiculous). And it's a shame they're telling store managers to use politics to try and ease the pain of the issue. LAME.

I am so glad I didn't wait in line or buy the 4 (I almost did!). I really want one for all of the other features but I need to make calls without having to worry about how I'm going the hold it! My 3G will have to do until they fix the antenna issue.
post #307 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

You say you're asking for evidence, but there's plenty of it, anecdotal, polls and testing results, all over this forum and many other parts of the web. That's evidence. I think the standard you're holding those who say there's a problem to, is that of proof. That's clearly not reasonable, and you yourself certainly haven't presented any proof to the contrary.

Hysteria is somebody writing literally hundreds of posts trying to discredit those whose experience or opinions don't fit with the way he want things to be.

And if everybody had to deal only in facts to contribute here, this website would not exist.

But, you should admit, that most of the posters reporting the problem do not claim that they are personally experiencing the problem-- rather they are reposting reports of others experiencing the problem.

I get a little suspicious when:

-- a few posters of many negative posts just joined AI to post on this issue
-- many of these same posters do not claim to own an iPhone or to be experiencing the issue themselves
-- they position themselves "above the fray"-- do-gooders posting for the rights of man, the good of humankind, and a wonderful world without Apple

As to evidence-- a single story repeated 1,000 times does not mean there are 1,000 people experiencing the issue. Nor, do 50 stories repeated 200 times.

If there, truly, is an issue it should be quantifiable, and should be above the norm failure rate for this class of device.

Without that we have no evidence!


For example, if I or You, and several others with a like agenda, were to post to some popular sites/blogs that, say, Obama and McCain are having illicit affairs... where would that lead?

If we play our cards right we can get on the rolling stones & the inquirer... Drudge, Limbaugh. CNN, MSNBC...

P.S. As an Apple Director, AlGore is off limits (and banned from the app store)!


,
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post #308 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Thanks.

Have I misinterpreted your sig to infer that Hawaiians are pickpockets?

No... fewer letters in their alphabet, hence they need fewer fingers:

http://www.hawaii-luaus.com/glossary.htm

Mahalo

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #309 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

You are missing their point. They are saying the iPhone 4 can handle low signals better then the iPhone 3GS. That is not the issue. The issue is that when you touch the iPhone 4 on the seam, for many people, the signal gets to a level where it does drop calls. Or the data rate drops dramatically. Also during this part of their test, did he touch it at the seam ? We don't know. Did he have a bumper on ? We don't know. Did he test the data rates ? We don't know.

Sorry, but I gotta' ask:

-- Do you own an iPhone 4?

-- Did You buy if for personal use?

-- Are you experiencing the problem you are reporting that "many people" are experiencing?

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #310 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Sorry, but I gotta' ask:

-- Do you own an iPhone 4?

-- Did You buy if for personal use?

-- Are you experiencing the problem you are reporting that "many people" are experiencing?

.

I currently own a iPhone 3GS for personal use. Previously had a iPhone 3G. I also own a MacBook Pro. I was ready to buy the iPhone 4 (for personal use) on launch day. Actually I wanted to buy it on the pre-release day on the Internet. But I couldn't get through due to their web site issues. Anyway, when the antenna issue was reported the night before the launch, I decided to wait to test it out myself. I went to the Apple store last Friday. I personally tested several of their demos. I experienced the slow data rates by touching the seam with just a fingertip. The data rates was fine if I didn't touch it at the seam. That would be a problem for me, because I naturally touch that area when I hold the phone. So with my personal experience, along with the many other facts I acquired on the Internet, I'm deciding to wait until Apple responds with the solution. I still want to buy an iPhone 4, but not in it's current flawed state.
post #311 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

But, you should admit, that most of the posters reporting the problem do not claim that they are personally experiencing the problem-- rather they are reposting reports of others experiencing the problem.

I get a little suspicious when:

-- a few posters of many negative posts just joined AI to post on this issue
-- many of these same posters do not claim to own an iPhone or to be experiencing the issue themselves
-- they position themselves "above the fray"-- do-gooders posting for the rights of man, the good of humankind, and a wonderful world without Apple

As to evidence, a single story repeated 1,000 times does not mean there are 1,000 people experiencing the issue. Nor, do 50 stories repeated 200 times.

If there, truly, is an issue it should be quantifiable, and should be above the norm failure rate for this class of device.

Without that we have no evidence!


For example, if I or You, and several others with a like agenda, were to post to some popular sites/blogs that, say, Obama and McCain are having illicit affairs... where would that lead?

If we play our cards right we can get on the rolling stones & the inquirer... Drudge, Limbaugh. CNN, MSNBC...

P.S. As an Apple Director, AlGore is off limits (and banned from the app store)!


,

I was responding to jragosta's reply to me, but anyway...

This is not a court of law so the rules of evidence clearly don't need to meet such stringent criteria as a reasonable basis to form an opinion. Note that I don't expect everybody to agree with that opinion, nor necessarily to disagree with is. It is after all what contributing to a forum is all about. So let's agree that what you believe is no more valid than what I believe, nor any less so.

The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone that is either giving problems or is not, and they are letting us know which. That is reporting. Those who don't have a phone are discussing the validity of the claims and reports of others and forming opinions on the basis of what they're reading, here and elsewhere.

The strawman about stories being repeated ad infinitum and counted as individual cases is clearly fallacious - I'd like to see where you get that from.

And you demand that the evidence be quantifiable before you'll accept it. You're asking for proof. The evidence is there but you choose to reject it as unreliable. Don't confuse that with there being none.

My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.

That's not been the case with a significant numbers of Apple's defenders.
post #312 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

I own a iPhone 3GS for personal use. Previously had a iPhone 3G. I also own a MacBook Pro. I was ready to buy the iPhone 4 (for personal use) on launch day. Actually I wanted to buy it on the pre-release day on the Internet. But I couldn't get through due to their web site issues. Anyway, when the antenna issue was reported the night before the launch, I decided to wait to test it out myself. I went to the Apple store last Friday. I personally tested several of their demos. I experienced the slow data rates by touching the seam with just a fingertip. The data rates was fine if I didn't touch it at the seam. That would be a problem for me, because that is where I naturally touch it. So with my personal experience, along with the many other facts I acquired on the Internet, I'm deciding to wait until Apple responds with the solution. I still want to buy an iPhone 4, but not in it's current flawed state.

Fair enough! So, you, personally, have experienced the "problem", albeit with limited testing.

Is it reasonable to assume that everyone reporting the "problem" has a similar experience and is as objective as you are?

Here's where I am coming from: I have a lot of personal experience, and a large investment in AAPL. I pretty much know what to expect from them-- They seldom screw up, but when they do. they screw uo royally. But, then, they do whatever it takes to fix the problem, then move on.

Generalizing Here: The web is rife with people claiming this and that issue with Apple or the iP4-- and quite frankly, I don't know them from Adam. But, the tenor of their posts (especially when the devolve to name-calling) makes me suspicious-- I look for an agenda.

Should I go with what I know (have experienced) or should I go (against my instincts) with what these unknowns are saying... usually, the answer is pretty easy!

Call me a cynic, an old fart, whatever, but this innate suspicion has served me well for over 70 years of business and personal dealings,

One of the several reasons that I am interested in this issue is the effect on my AAPL holdings-- taken a significant hit in the last couple of days,

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #313 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

I was responding to jragosta's reply to me, but anyway...

This is not a court of law so the rules of evidence clearly don't need to meet such stringent criteria as the reasonable basis to form an opinion. Note that I don't expect everybody to agree with that opinion, nor necessarily to disagree with is. It is after all what contributing to a forum is all about. So let's agree that what you believe is no more valid than what I believe, nor any less so.

The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone that is either giving problems or is not, and they are letting us know which. That is reporting. Those who don't have a phone are discussing the validity of the claims and reports of others and forming opinions on the basis of what they're reading, here and elsewhere.

The strawman about stories being repeated ad infinitum and counted as individual cases is clearly fallacious - I'd like to see where you get that from.

And you demand that the evidence be quantifiable before you'll accept it. You're asking for proof. The evidence is there but you choose to reject it as unreliable. Don't confuse that with there being none.

My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.

That's not been the case with a significant numbers of Apple's defenders.


This forum has a lot of active posters that, like yourself, join AI to post to a specific topic.

Yours appears to to spread negative information (with no substantiation) about the iPhone 4.

I have an iPhone and am not experiencing the problem.


Sorry, but I gotta' ask you too:

-- Do you own an iPhone 4?

-- Did You buy if for personal use?

-- Are you experiencing the problem you are reporting that "many people" are experiencing?

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #314 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Is it reasonable to assume that everyone reporting the "problem" has a similar experience and is as objective as you are?

Of course not everyone is objective as me. But, because of my personal (yes, limited) experience with the issue, and reading material from people that are a lot more knowledgeable about the inner working of cell phones then me, this obviously appears to be an issue that is not normal. Despite Apple's claims of it being normal. Which in itself is disappointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

One of the several reasons that I am interested in this issue is the effect on my AAPL holdings-- taken a significant hit in the last couple of days..

Interesting revelation. So even though you appear to be a rational and objective person too, you have a dog in this fight. You might not be truly objective as you normally would be, if you did not own Apple stock, or have a deep love for them.
post #315 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

I was responding to jragosta's reply to me, but anyway...

You posted to an open forum... every post is fair game!

Quote:

This is not a court of law so the rules of evidence clearly don't need to meet such stringent criteria as a reasonable basis to form an opinion. Note that I don't expect everybody to agree with that opinion, nor necessarily to disagree with is. It is after all what contributing to a forum is all about. So let's agree that what you believe is no more valid than what I believe, nor any less so.

This is an open forum where people are on their own to choose what to believe and what to disbelieve.

Hopefully it is a court of common sense, where each can offer opinions, often supported by facts or citations for reference and participate in reasoned discussions/

Quote:

The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone that is either giving problems or is not, and they are letting us know which. That is reporting.

That's a pretty broad assumption, especial from someone who has less than days 5 experience on this forum:

Chopper:
Join Date
06-25-2010
Total Posts
36

Tell me how you know that "The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone" is a valid logical assumption.

Since I have no knowledge of your history, ability, biases-- I naturally treat your opinions with some skepticism-- I don't know you, yet, and I don't need to treat your unsupported options and assertion with equal weight as those who have a reasoned track record (whether I agree with it or not!).

Who are you? Why are you making [mostly] negative posts to an Apple forum? Do you have an agenda?

Back up your assertions with some substantiation, then we can have a reasoned discussion.

Quote:

Those who don't have a phone are discussing the validity of the claims and reports of others and forming opinions on the basis of what they're reading, here and elsewhere.

The strawman about stories being repeated ad infinitum and counted as individual cases is clearly fallacious - I'd like to see where you get that from.

No strawman-- show me 100 unique reports-- I haven't been able to find them, just recycled cluster links.
Quote:
And you demand that the evidence be quantifiable before you'll accept it. You're asking for proof. The evidence is there but you choose to reject it as unreliable. Don't confuse that with there being none.

There is no evidence, just oft repeated assertions. I believe that some people are experiencing problems-- that's expected. But, does it rise to the level of a valid issue (abnormal number of failures for this class of device)? There are no facts that support that there are-- only assertions that "many" people are experiencing the problem.

With a binary numbering system of "few" and "many", "many" has no meaning!

Quote:
My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.

That's not been the case with a significant numbers of Apple's defenders.


My observation is that are a predictable number of people with an agenda that join AI to disparage Apple-- centered around an Apple product or position announcement... prove me wrong Chronster!

.
"Swift generally gets you to the right way much quicker." - auxio -

"The perfect [birth]day -- A little playtime, a good poop, and a long nap." - Tomato Greeting Cards -
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post #316 of 376
and so it begins...

"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #317 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Of course not everyone is objective as me. But, because of my personal (yes, limited) experience with the issue, and reading material from people that are a lot more knowledgeable about the inner working of cell phones then me, this obviously appears to be an issue that is not normal. Despite Apple's claims of it being normal. Which in itself is disappointing.


Interesting revelation. So even though you appear to be a rational and objective person too, you have a dog in this fight. You might not be truly objective as you normally would be, if you did not own Apple stock, or have a deep love for them.

That's no revelation! I post it often so that people understand my perspective. I do have a dog in this fight and a set of experiences that have served me well. No apologies!

I don't think that having a significant (to me) position in AAPL automatically makes me irrational and non-objective,

If I think that Apple is working against my interests, hopefully I am objective enough to cover my assets!

.
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post #318 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post


My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.

That's not been the case with a significant numbers of Apple's defenders.

Very Astute Observations, and Welcome To Apple Insider
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #319 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

This forum has a lot of active posters that, like yourself, join AI to post to a specific topic.

Yours appears to to spread negative information (with no substantiation) about the iPhone 4.

I have an iPhone and am not experiencing the problem.


Sorry, but I gotta' ask you too:

-- Do you own an iPhone 4?

-- Did You buy if for personal use?

-- Are you experiencing the problem you are reporting that "many people" are experiencing?

.

Fair enough. I'd like you to reference the "negative info (with no substantiation)" about the iPhone that you allege I "spread".

In answer to your three questions...
No, I don't and wouldn't be in a position to buy until they're released here, probably in August on Vodafone.
Yes, it would be for my personal use.
Obviously I can't be experiencing the problem if I don't have an iP4.

My current phone is a Nokia E63, and my wife has an iPhone 3Gs. In my work I use a MacBook, an iMac 24 and a MacPro G5. My kids have 4 iPods between them. (I'm too old to get away with white earbuds and headbanging at traffic lights).

This topic got me posting because 1) I'm interested in an iP4 as replacement for my E63 and ultimately 2) because of SJ's dismissive remark about "holding it that way".

Without that I'd still be lurking.

Right now, the reception issues are giving me pause so I'll watch developments with interest. If it's a design issue, then I surely won't be buying this model. If it's software, or if it's a manufacturing hiccup, and providing it's sorted, the an iP4 will be my next phone.

I'm glad you're not experiencing the problem yourself though. Perhaps you got lucky?
post #320 of 376
A second response to my reply - I feel honoured.

"Tell me how you know that "The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone" is a valid logical assumption."

Because they are telling us that their phone either has or doesn't have issues. That is a report. If the poster does not have a phone, how can he report it's status? I don't understand why you find that difficult to comprehend.

"Since I have no knowledge of your history, ability, biases-- I naturally treat your opinions with some skepticism-- I don't know you, yet, and I don't need to treat your unsupported options and assertion with equal weight as those who have a reasoned track record (whether I agree with it or not!)."

I'm not sure I'd agree that "naturally" is the right phrase. Seems to me the natural thing is to give somebody the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. But then, your society there is no doubt different to mine.

"Who are you? Why are you making [mostly] negative posts to an Apple forum? Do you have an agenda?"

I'm contributing posts on an issue that, if true, casts the iP4 in a poor light. You think I should pretend that there's no issue and make soothing supportive posts instead maybe? Even though I believe that the iP4 has flawed reception?

"Back up your assertions with some substantiation, then we can have a reasoned discussion."

Which assertions exactly would you like me to back up?

"No strawman-- show me 100 unique reports"

You were the one claiming "a single story repeated 1,000 times does not mean there are 1,000 people experiencing the issue. Nor, do 50 stories repeated 200 times" so presumably you have quantifiable evidence (your standard) to back up your "assertion". It's then incumbent on you to do so.

"My observation is that are a predictable number of people with an agenda that join AI to disparage Apple-- centered around an Apple product or position announcement... prove me wrong Chronster!"

Chronster?
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