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Wireless experts weigh in on iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 9

post #321 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Very Astute Observations, and Welcome To Apple Insider

Thanks for the friendly welcome. Gotta say it's the first one though.

So you're one of the "trolls" huh? I get the feeling, having read these threads for quite some time, that there's a bunch of citizenry around these here parts that'd be happy that you weren't here. You must have a tough hide on ya DaHarder.

I'm thinking seriously of skulking back into the shadows, having tasted the warmth of the local hospitality. We'll see over the next few hours.

Cheers.
post #322 of 376
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post #323 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Thanks for the friendly welcome. Gotta say it's the first one though.

So you're one of the "trolls" huh? I get the feeling, having read these threads for quite some time, that there's a bunch of citizenry around these here parts that'd be happy that you weren't here. You must have a tough hide on ya DaHarder.

I'm thinking seriously of skulking back into the shadows, having tasted the warmth of the local hospitality. We'll see over the next few hours.

Cheers.

Simply Stand Your Ground, ignoring the (self-proclaimed) AI Elite who are not nearly as 'intellectually astute' as they think they are.
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
Reply
post #324 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Simply Stand Your Ground, ignoring the (self-proclaimed) AI Elite who are not nearly as 'intellectually astute' as they think they are.

Is Chronster seen to be a "bad boy"? Just curious because Dick Applebaum called me by that name and Chronster's definitely a poster here. Plus my feeling is that Dick has taken an instant dislike to my presence at AI.

Or do you think that I'm suspected of being Chronster's alter ego?

Inquiring minds...
post #325 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Hmmm, there's no question the iPhone 4 antenna performs better then the iPhone 3GS. Until you factor in the massive antenna attenuation if you touch the wrong spot. Did you not see their chart ? That is the issue.

The issue people are having is that they assume antenna attenuation automatically has an impact on calling performance, which is not necessarily the case in the same way that someone's digital TV reception might be much lower than others but the TV shows look exactly the same. The Anand article noted that the baseband hardware was more sensitive and so calls were more stable than any other device despite the higher signal attenuation.

Now while the signal attenuation is definitely an issue, it's also an issue with other phones so holding the iPhone 4 without a case in a natural way will drop the signal enough to drop a call in a low signal area, the same is likely to be true about previous iPhones and other phones. With a case, the extra signal strength gained will allow the iPhone 4 to exceed the performance of other phones.

The bumper case being offered free as it protects the glass on both sides and helps signal quality is a good idea but it is not designed that well because it blocks the dock port of some accessories. The cost will put some people off buying one when they may not really need it (not everyone is seeing an issue).

You have to wonder if the iPhone 4 might have had exceptional quality if the antenna was designed like the 3GS because it seems that the hardware in iPhone 4 is coping very well with even the lowest signal. With the better antenna design of the 3GS, it would have been amazing.

It seems odd though that the 3GS antenna would perform better because Apple must have tested this and found the iPhone 4 to be better otherwise why design it with external antennas in the first place? They have the ability to measure attenuation like anyone else so surely they would have noticed a drop and as people have suggested, maybe they did which is why they made a bumper case for it but there's the possibility that the signal attenuation isn't being measured accurately by testers.

I think the best solution to the issue from Apple's point of view would be to change the way the bars are displayed to instead reflect the likelihood that you can make a successful call with the signal you have but perhaps there are FCC or other regulations that state how reception should be measured.
post #326 of 376
Apple were no doubt perfectly aware of the issue as Steve was marketing bumpers right within his so tightly timed keynote.
Big question is why has he chosen to dig into antenna design. Had he not, gawkers would never know.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

Reply
post #327 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

if Apple thinks i'm spending 29 bucks on an 18-cent piece of silicone they're out of their minds.

Many women spend $6K for their new silicone twins why not a bumper?


.
post #328 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

Dick Gaywood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

Grow up.

Gaywood + "grow up"




.
post #329 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

This is not a court of law so the rules of evidence clearly don't need to meet such stringent criteria as a reasonable basis to form an opinion. Note that I don't expect everybody to agree with that opinion, nor necessarily to disagree with is. It is after all what contributing to a forum is all about. So let's agree that what you believe is no more valid than what I believe, nor any less so.

That's the problem with so many Apple-haters here. There SHOULD BE rules of evidence. Maybe not exactly the same as the legal system uses, but it should require facts and not innuendo to convince someone of something. Controlled experiments done by people who understand the scientific method.

"Waaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem" is what we're hearing from a lot of people, but when you ask for evidence that a significant number of people are seeing more dropped calls, they refuse (or are unable) to answer - instead, just resorting to "Waaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem".

There is absolutely no way of knowing if it's a true phone flaw or simply a small number of people with defective phones (or mass hysteria, for that matter) without real data. I'm sorry that the idea of discussing facts bothers you so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone that is either giving problems or is not, and they are letting us know which. That is reporting. Those who don't have a phone are discussing the validity of the claims and reports of others and forming opinions on the basis of what they're reading, here and elsewhere.

That is not true. A large number of the loudest complainers do not have an iPhone 4 and proudly state that they'd never have one. You see that in all the threads here. Many of the loudest posters are not using the product, but simply repeating what they've heard over and over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

And you demand that the evidence be quantifiable before you'll accept it. You're asking for proof. The evidence is there but you choose to reject it as unreliable. Don't confuse that with there being none.

Sorry, but that's the way the world works. I don't want companies running around spending billions of dollars on pseudo-solutions every time someone complains about something. First, you find out if it's a real problem. Then you find a way to replicate it consistently. Then you find a solution. Then you distribute that solution to customers.

Simply jumping from "I have a problem" to "Apple needs to do xyz to fix my problem" is a lousy argument and terrible policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.

Not even close to being true. Most Apple defenders have attacked Apple when facts justify it. I can't speak for the others, but I'm simply offended by the endless drone of Apple-hate coming from people who do not own Apple products but simply want to spew FUD. It has been going on for decades - with people spreading endless lies about the things Macs "couldn't" do all the way back into the 80's.

If someone actually uses a product and wants to engage in rational debate, that's fine with me. But if they're going to simply spew FUD without even making a simple attempt to learn facts, they're trolls - and need to find a hobby.

You have to ask yourself what kind of mental illness makes someone want to spend countless hours on forums like this attacking a product they don't own, are proud to announce that they will NEVER own, and they don't know anything about. I can understand people wanting to talk about a product that they own and like. I can even understand someone wanting to blast a product that they own and had problems with. But I'll never understand the mentality of people who spend countless hours attacking a product that they've never used - attacking it simply because they chose something different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmike View Post

Apple should have engineered/designed a better solution. Whether it's a clear coating or another way to solve the issue. Apple shouldn't suggest using a bumper as a fix. But they should give one to everyone who spent $200 - $300 for their phone and have to deal with reception issues and have to watch how they hold the phone (which is ridiculous). And it's a shame they're telling store managers to use politics to try and ease the pain of the issue. LAME.

First, Anand's report says that EVEN WITH THE 'PROBLEM', the iPhone 4 gets better reception than other phones, so I'm not sure what the complaint is - nor am I convinced that you have any reasonable say in the matter since you admit that you don't even have one.

Second, I do not believe it would make sense for Apple to 'engineer a better solution' when there is still no data out there to suggest that it's a real problem. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that you can artificially reduce the number of bars, but there's no sign that call quality or number of dropped calls suffers. Let's get data first and then look at a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

You are missing their point. They are saying the iPhone 4 can handle low signals better then the iPhone 3GS. That is not the issue. The issue is that when you touch the iPhone 4 on the seam, for many people, the signal gets to a level where it does drop calls. Or the data rate drops dramatically. Also during this part of their test, did he touch it at the seam ? We don't know. Did he have a bumper on ? We don't know. Did he test the data rates ? We don't know.

Play games all you want. The facts are simple:

1. EVEN THOUGH ANAND CAN DEMONSTRATE THE 'PROBLEM', they got better call quality with the iPHone 4 than with other phones. They were able to go places where the iPhone 3GS wouldn't even connect. In Anand's tests, call quality did not suffer.

2. There is no widespread evidence to suggest that call quality suffers or that the number of dropped calls has increased. Running around trying to change things without data is foolish. How would you know that a 'solution' doesn't make things worse - unless you have data? I would prefer for Apple to be a rational company who first determines if there IS a problem with dropped calls, then collects information, THEN solves the problem - rather than simply running around throwing out 'solutions' willy-nilly.

3. EVEN IF the problem does lead to dropped calls, it only occurs when you cup your hand over the bottom of the phone - which is almost impossible to do in normal use. When you're on the Internet, it's trivial to move your hand up slightly higher on the phone. So, people who have a problem can:
a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case
or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently.

That's a pretty wide range of options.

I'm just curious what your vested interest is. You don't own an iPhone and apparently have no plans to buy one. So why have you posted hundreds of messages on this topic? What drives you to spend so much anger and hatred on a product you have no plans to buy?
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #330 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

1. EVEN THOUGH ANAND CAN DEMONSTRATE THE 'PROBLEM', they got better call quality with the iPHone 4 than with other phones. They were able to go places where the iPhone 3GS wouldn't even connect. In Anand's tests, call quality did not suffer.

2. There is no widespread evidence to suggest that call quality suffers or that the number of dropped calls has increased. Running around trying to change things without data is foolish. How would you know that a 'solution' doesn't make things worse - unless you have data? I would prefer for Apple to be a rational company who first determines if there IS a problem with dropped calls, then collects information, THEN solves the problem - rather than simply running around throwing out 'solutions' willy-nilly.

3. EVEN IF the problem does lead to dropped calls, it only occurs when you cup your hand over the bottom of the phone - which is almost impossible to do in normal use. When you're on the Internet, it's trivial to move your hand up slightly higher on the phone. So, people who have a problem can:
a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case
or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently.

Why do you purposely distort the facts ? Let's take them one by one.

1. Yes, AnandTech was able to make calls in places with a lower signal. When they avoid touching the seam. And using a bumper. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when the phone is touched at the seam, without a bumper, the phone drops calls and/or has drastically lower data rates. That is the issue.

2. Then why does Apple state the solution is to avoid touching the seam or buy a case ? They are the one giving out solutions to their customers on this issue/flaw. And Apple is claiming there is no issue. They are not saying they are looking into the issue. They are saying this is normal. Apple's statements of it being a non-issue, makes this situation worse.

3. Wrong, it's not when you cup your hand around the phone. All it takes is a simple touch of a fingertip on the seam. Which is very easy to do, due to it's poor placement. It's in a place where many people naturally place their hands. Also, you can't return the phone for a full refund. Apple charges a 10% restocking fee. And why should the customer buy a case just so the phone can work as a phone.
post #331 of 376
jragosta...

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain to me your frustration that I don't see your point of view. And you're right. I don't. Your passion for Apple shines through and you fight the good fight. Of that there's no doubt at all.

But this is a website when people can take pot-shots at Microsoft as they please, HTC can be pilloried without fear, where Adobe can be slandered as the whim takes you and Android is openly reviled for just being an Apple competitor.

You can't then suddenly demand a far higher standard from those who criticize Apple than you're prepared to demand from Apple's supporters. That's just hypocrisy.

Facts are fine to insist on, but if that were a mandatory requirement at AppleInsider, there would be no articles and no posts. That's a reality. Ask your mods.

You don't need to have an iP4 to want it to be all it could, should be. I'm not here to beat up on the iP4 or Apple. I want an iPhone. But I don't want one with a crap reception. And I don't believe you do either.

If you believe I'm a troll, you're of course entitled to your opinion. Obviously I can't dictate that and all I can do is argue my case as well as I can. If I fail to convince you then it's my problem. But I've pleaded my case as well as I'm able. That's the breaks.

However, Anand's review clearly shows that iP4 has real issues. Read the review again with an open mind and you'll see what we're talking about. I never said Apple needs to make a rash attempt at appeasing the vociferous. If Apple doesn't take ownership of this, it'll be a serious PR disaster for the company. I don't want that. I know you don't want that. Denying the obvious, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. Apple needs to 'fess up and fix it.

"a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently."

The options all favor Apple rather than the consumer:
a: The returnee is out the restocking fee
b: The case costs the consumer $30 for an Apple issue
c: You shouldn't have to re-learn to hold a mobile phone for no other reason than it has an Apple logo in it.

I have explained my motives more than once, including this very thread. If you don't understand them now, then I don't believe I can further your comprehension.
post #332 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

jragosta...

I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain to me your frustration that I don't see your point of view. And you're right. I don't. Your passion for Apple shines through and you fight the good fight. Of that there's no doubt at all.

But this is a website when people can take pot-shots at Microsoft as they please, HTC can be pilloried without fear, where Adobe can be slandered as the whim takes you and Android is openly reviled for just being an Apple competitor.

You can't then suddenly demand a far higher standard from those who criticize Apple than you're prepared to demand from Apple's supporters. That's just hypocrisy.

Facts are fine to insist on, but if that were a mandatory requirement at AppleInsider, there would be no articles and no posts. That's a reality. Ask your mods.

You don't need to have an iP4 to want it to be all it could, should be. I'm not here to beat up on the iP4 or Apple. I want an iPhone. But I don't want one with a crap reception. And I don't believe you do either.

If you believe I'm a troll, you're of course entitled to your opinion. Obviously I can't dictate that and all I can do is argue my case as well as I can. If I fail to convince you then it's my problem. But I've pleaded my case as well as I'm able. That's the breaks.

However, Anand's review clearly shows that iP4 has real issues. Read the review again with an open mind and you'll see what we're talking about. I never said Apple needs to make a rash attempt at appeasing the vociferous. If Apple doesn't take ownership of this, it'll be a serious PR disaster for the company. I don't want that. I know you don't want that. Denying the obvious, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. Apple needs to 'fess up and fix it.

"a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently."

The options all favor Apple rather than the consumer:
a: The returnee is out the restocking fee
b: The case costs the consumer $30 for an Apple issue
c: You shouldn't have to re-learn to hold a mobile phone for no other reason than it has an Apple logo in it.

I have explained my motives more than once, including this very thread. If you don't understand them now, then I don't believe I can further your comprehension.

You're imagining things when you argue that I attack Microsoft or anyone else without facts. That's the kind of mindless accusation that offends me - and most thinking people. When there are real facts, they are fair game.

Anand's review says that the iPhone's reception is better than the other phones they tested. Period. The fact that you are able to twist your arms in some bizarre way to affect that doesn't change their results. Their tests show that the iPhone's reception is superlative.

If you don't want an iPHone, then don't buy one. But the fact that it doesn't meet your standards doesn't justify your endless, fact-free bashing. I'm perfectly happy with my iPhone. No problems at all.

Even when you finally get around to facts, you get them wrong. There's no restocking fee on iPHones at Apple Stores or Best Buys. And you don't have to buy a case if you don't wish. The fact is that products have different characteristics, so you may hold the iPhone slightly differently. Is that trivial fact worth all this endless whining and lawsuits? Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of people do NOT have to hold their phone differently. Pick up an iPhone 4 and hold it next to your ear in the most comfortable manner. For everyone I've ever seen, that position would NOT be one that generates the 'problem'.

Finally, you're talking about a 'problem' as if there's any proof that it's a real problem. While lots of people can get the number of bars to drop, that's a cosmetic issue. There are very few reports of dropped calls while holding the phone normally. THAT is one if the things that makes me ask for facts. Instead of jumping on the "Apple is evil" or "Apple is incompetent" bandwagon, how about first determining if there's a real problem. So far, there's no evidence that it's anything more than a few isolated cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Why do you purposely distort the facts ? Let's take them one by one.

1. Yes, AnandTech was able to make calls in places with a lower signal. When they avoid touching the seam. And using a bumper. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when the phone is touched at the seam, without a bumper, the phone drops calls and/or has drastically lower data rates. That is the issue.

2. Then why does Apple state the solution is to avoid touching the seam or buy a case ? They are the one giving out solutions to their customers on this issue/flaw. And Apple is claiming there is no issue. They are not saying they are looking into the issue. They are saying this is normal. Apple's statements of it being a non-issue, makes this situation worse.

3. Wrong, it's not when you cup your hand around the phone. All it takes is a simple touch of a fingertip on the seam. Which is very easy to do, due to it's poor placement. It's in a place where many people naturally place their hands. Also, you can't return the phone for a full refund. Apple charges a 10% restocking fee. And why should the customer buy a case just so the phone can work as a phone.

1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.

2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.

3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.

AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.
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post #333 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.

2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.

3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.

AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.

Dude, why do you continue to distort facts.

1. Go back and re-read AnandTech's review. They plainly say how when using the bumper, they were able to use the phone in low signal areas. They never said touching the seam does not cause call/data issues.

AnandTech:
Quote:
With my bumper case on, I made it further into dead zones than ever before, and into marginal areas that would always drop calls without any problems at all.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/t...one-4-review/2

2. No, customers are complaining they are having call and/or data issues. Not just cosmetic bar display issues. And Apple is saying there is no issue. But just avoid touching the seam or buy a case.

3. The issue is touching the lower left seam. Not both seams. Glad not touching the seam isn't a issue for you. But it is for many people. Who are you to tell people what's a big deal or not ? It is a big deal to many people. Because it's in a place you normally hold the phone. So you are the one that needs to get over it.

And, yes there is a 10% restocking fee on all Apple products. You need to pull you hand out of the sand and do more research.

Apple website:
Quote:
Apple will assess a 10% restocking fee on any opened iPhone. Shipping fees are not refundable.

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...#iphonereturns


You really like distorting the facts. Why ?
post #334 of 376
Dude, I admire your tenacity and your patience.

If jragosta is so bent upon defending Apple, counter to all logic, then maybe it's time to let go. I just did. I tried to be reasonable and polite but at some point the willful rejection of sanity simply cannot be overcome.You did your best.

Time I think to step into the light.

You can do no more here. Face it and move on dude.

Cheers.
post #335 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Dude, I admire your tenacity and your patience.

If jragosta is so bent upon defending Apple, counter to all logic, then maybe it's time to let go. I just did. I tried to be reasonable and polite but at some point the willful rejection of sanity simply cannot be overcome.You did your best.

Time I think to step into the light.

You can do no more here. Face it and move on dude.

Cheers.

Agreed, thanks for the reality check
post #336 of 376
Right now I'm sitting outside the Vodafone store in the Scotland in my car. I originally bought the ip4 at 9.30 am exactly one week ago. I'm in a 3G area and streamed radio the 15 miles to the store with the phone sitting next me, whereas on the 3G model on O2 the signal would have been dropped numerous times. Whilst sitting in my car I got three bars of signal strength and everything downloaded quickly. That was when I held the phone by the top. When I held the phone in my left hand in a relaxed and comfortable way the signal within about 5 seconds dropped to Vodafones slower network and showed two bars. At that point I didn't wait any longer and went into the store. The manager was very friendly and tried my phone out. He went from 5 bars in the store to no service in about 5 seconds. When he laid the phone down within about 15 seconds the phone had full 3G service again.

He put into the system ghat Vodafone is reserving a a new ip4 for me as a replacement when they come in (they're currently sold out) which will likely be early next week. He also put into the system that if that new ip4 has the same issues then I can cancel my contract as though I was still in the 7 day grace period.

That's good service, the kind of service I have been always fortunate enough to get with Apple up until now.

It is possible that my phone was worse than it could have been with other ip4's therefore it's worth my while to try out a new one.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #337 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You're imagining things when you argue that I attack Microsoft or anyone else without facts. That's the kind of mindless accusation that offends me - and most thinking people. When there are real facts, they are fair game.

Anand's review says that the iPhone's reception is better than the other phones they tested. Period. The fact that you are able to twist your arms in some bizarre way to affect that doesn't change their results. Their tests show that the iPhone's reception is superlative.

If you don't want an iPHone, then don't buy one. But the fact that it doesn't meet your standards doesn't justify your endless, fact-free bashing. I'm perfectly happy with my iPhone. No problems at all.

Even when you finally get around to facts, you get them wrong. There's no restocking fee on iPHones at Apple Stores or Best Buys. And you don't have to buy a case if you don't wish. The fact is that products have different characteristics, so you may hold the iPhone slightly differently. Is that trivial fact worth all this endless whining and lawsuits? Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of people do NOT have to hold their phone differently. Pick up an iPhone 4 and hold it next to your ear in the most comfortable manner. For everyone I've ever seen, that position would NOT be one that generates the 'problem'.

Finally, you're talking about a 'problem' as if there's any proof that it's a real problem. While lots of people can get the number of bars to drop, that's a cosmetic issue. There are very few reports of dropped calls while holding the phone normally. THAT is one if the things that makes me ask for facts. Instead of jumping on the "Apple is evil" or "Apple is incompetent" bandwagon, how about first determining if there's a real problem. So far, there's no evidence that it's anything more than a few isolated cases.



1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.

2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.

3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.

AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.

Actually, you're wrong. There is a restocking fee for ANY opened iPhone if purchased at any Apple Store in America or online Apple store.

Quote:
Apple will assess a 10% restocking fee on any opened iPhone. Shipping fees are not refundable.

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...#iphonereturns
Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

Ste...
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post #338 of 376
And another thing about my trip to the Vodafone store. Having laid the phone down he picked it up and made a call. He had had full bars on 3G, within a few seconds "call failed" came up on my ip4 as he held it in his left hand.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #339 of 376
I have not received my new iPhone 4 but here are my thoughts on the matter.

1) removed the rubber cover on my 3G and "death gripped" it and watched the bars drop to 0 then removed hands and immediately back to 5 bars.
2) How many iphone owners don't cover their phones? I do immediately. I know there are very few iPhone 4 covers and Apple is out of the rubber band so there are a lot more naked iPhone 4s out there so reception issue is amplified.
3) All of you millions of LanceArmstrong Foundation members wearing those yellow bands, cover your new phones and see what happens.
4) Or go to Case-Mate.com and order a rubber cover and practice "safe texting"
5) I wiill report back when I get my new iPhone 4 on the reception issues.
6) Could the issue also be that the iPhone is so date intensive that it locks out the cellular demands from all of the AT&T phones out there so many callers are not able to get a channel to the cellular base station or the signal is weakened by the 3G data demands (engineer needed)
7) Find the recent video where the caller called a sports number and "death gripped" his phone and the call held strong through entire process.
8) How many of you Apple fans bought the phone for the phone and not the other great features. Stop bashing Apple.
post #340 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

"My observation is that are a predictable number of people with an agenda that join AI to disparage Apple-- centered around an Apple product or position announcement... prove me wrong Chronster!"

Chronster?

Yeah because I constantly don't buy Apple's bs. I don't always bash them and I get as excited as anyone else to hear about their announcements, but when I don't completely go gaga like some other people here, I get called a troll.

Heck, there's one guy here who has my name in his sig saying he ignored me. He only ignored me after I called him out for making stuff up to talk up Apple.
post #341 of 376
I don't believe the iPhone will kill you. The Toyota has killed how many people now because of acc. issues? The guy that brought it up is smoking something

Originally by Rickers - 2014 : Cook & will bury Apple.  They can only ride Steve's ghost so long.


History reduce Apple Watch.... to a footnote in the annals of technology - Benjamin Frost Dec 2014



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Originally by Rickers - 2014 : Cook & will bury Apple.  They can only ride Steve's ghost so long.


History reduce Apple Watch.... to a footnote in the annals of technology - Benjamin Frost Dec 2014



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post #342 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The issue people are having is that they assume antenna attenuation automatically has an impact on calling performance, which is not necessarily the case in the same way that someone's digital TV reception might be much lower than others but the TV shows look exactly the same. The Anand article noted that the baseband hardware was more sensitive and so calls were more stable than any other device despite the higher signal attenuation.

Now while the signal attenuation is definitely an issue, it's also an issue with other phones so holding the iPhone 4 without a case in a natural way will drop the signal enough to drop a call in a low signal area, the same is likely to be true about previous iPhones and other phones. With a case, the extra signal strength gained will allow the iPhone 4 to exceed the performance of other phones.

The bumper case being offered free as it protects the glass on both sides and helps signal quality is a good idea but it is not designed that well because it blocks the dock port of some accessories. The cost will put some people off buying one when they may not really need it (not everyone is seeing an issue).

You have to wonder if the iPhone 4 might have had exceptional quality if the antenna was designed like the 3GS because it seems that the hardware in iPhone 4 is coping very well with even the lowest signal. With the better antenna design of the 3GS, it would have been amazing.

It seems odd though that the 3GS antenna would perform better because Apple must have tested this and found the iPhone 4 to be better otherwise why design it with external antennas in the first place? They have the ability to measure attenuation like anyone else so surely they would have noticed a drop and as people have suggested, maybe they did which is why they made a bumper case for it but there's the possibility that the signal attenuation isn't being measured accurately by testers.

I think the best solution to the issue from Apple's point of view would be to change the way the bars are displayed to instead reflect the likelihood that you can make a successful call with the signal you have but perhaps there are FCC or other regulations that state how reception should be measured.

The issue isn't signal attenuation. The issue is "shorting" the two antennas. You can cover the entire phone with your hands, while not connecting the two antennas, and it will not have any noticeable effect on the phone. On the other hand, you can connect the two antennas with a tiny paper clip without touching any other part of the phone and it will completely lose signal.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the signal attenuation that is common on all phones. This has to do with a malfunction caused by shorting two separate antennas.

I find it darn near impossible to believe that Apple didn't realize that shorting the two antennas would cause a problem. After all, they did include the little plastic strip between the two antennas for a reason. But I guess it is possible that they didn't realize that, despite the plastic strip, the antennas can be shorted by placing your finger or any other conductor over the two antennas. Either they realized it and decided not to fix it, which in my opinion would warrant legal liability, or they didn't realize it after testing, which in my opinion is a completely inexcusable oversight.
post #343 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt View Post

I find it darn near impossible to believe that Apple didn't realize that shorting the two antennas would cause a problem. After all, they did include the little plastic strip between the two antennas for a reason. But I guess it is possible that they didn't realize that, despite the plastic strip, the antennas can be shorted by placing your finger or any other conductor over the two antennas.

The plastic strip is to separate the antennas, but your finger placed gently upon it should not cause a complete and instant "short circuit" when you bridge that gap.
Both pics have the right-side edge against a marble table. No human contact with the pic on the left while the pic on the right is from my salty finger bridging and "short circuiting" the antennas. If it doesn't happen with all iPhones then it's not impossible for Apple to have not known about the issue.

Simply put, if that happened on all devices they wouldn't have designed it that way and it would be reproducible on all devices. It's not, so it's quite possible that Apple didn't know about this issue some phones are having. It also makes it possible this is from a production problem that can be solved with suitable replacements or a SW update, depending on the reason they find for the issue. So far, all we have are documentation on how to reproduce the issue, but we haven't determined what the underlying problem is.
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post #344 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The plastic strip is to separate the antennas, but your finger placed gently upon it should not cause a complete and instant "short circuit" when you bridge that gap.

I agree that it should not, but it does.

Quote:
Both pics have the right-side edge against a marble table. No human contact with the pic on the left while the pic on the right is from my salty finger bridging and "short circuiting" the antennas. If it doesn't happen with all iPhones then it's not impossible for Apple to have not known about the issue.

Simply put, if that happened on all devices they wouldn't have designed it that way and it would be reproducible on all devices. It's not, so it's quite possible that Apple didn't know about this issue some phones are having. It also makes it possible this is from a production problem that can be solved with suitable replacements or a SW update, depending on the reason they find for the issue. So far, all we have are documentation on how to reproduce the issue, but we haven't determined what the underlying problem is.

I suspect it is reproduceable on every single unit. The fact that one unit in one area cannot replicate the drop doesn't mean that unit isn't affected, unfortunately.

In many cases, I too, can replicate obtaining better or similar transfer rates despite shorting the antennas. This happens when I am in an area with very good signal strength. Shorting the antennas appears to have more of an impact when you have weaker signal.

Perhaps Apple didn't notice the effect because it only tested the phone in areas with strong signal strength. That seems hard to believe that they would have such poor testing procedures.

The underlying problem is very clear -- shorting the two antennas. There is no question that this is the cause of the problem. Now, why exactly shorting the antennas causes a problem is unknown to me (I'm not an engineer, much less one with antenna expertise). It's also unknown whether this shorting can be fixed via a software update. But very clearly the issue is not your typical signal attenuation (i.e., simply covering the antenna), but rather the bridging of the two antennas.
post #345 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt View Post

I agree that it should not, but it does.

I suspect it is reproduceable on every single unit. The fact that one unit in one area cannot replicate the drop doesn't mean that unit isn't affected, unfortunately.

In many cases, I too, can replicate obtaining better or similar transfer rates despite shorting the antennas. This happens when I am in an area with very good signal strength. Shorting the antennas appears to have more of an impact when you have weaker signal.

Perhaps Apple didn't notice the effect because it only tested the phone in areas with strong signal strength. That seems hard to believe that they would have such poor testing procedures.

So you're saying that impedance is more detrimental when the signal strength is low? Of course, but that does not mean that you are "shorting" the antennas. To claim it's a "short circuit" because of touching of two antennas is you saying it's a "design flaw", without leaving any room for a production issue, a bad batch of components or a SW/driver issue. I don't think it's wise to jump the gun and state a theory as absolute fact.

I've been in low signal areas testing this and it's never once shown any real change in my ability to make a call or my data throughput. On top of that, there are plenty of videos demonstrating that you can go from 5 bars (-51dB to -91dB) to No Service within a few seconds and completely and instantly stopping data throughput by touching the 3G-Spot. Yet I or anyone else I know can reproduce this effect with 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 or even zero bars. I did meet a person I met in a coffee shop this past week with the issue and it happened just as described in the videos. I could do it on his phone and he couldn't do it on mine.
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post #346 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So you're saying that impedance is more detrimental when the signal strength is low? Of course, but that does not mean that you are "shorting" the antennas. To claim it's a "short circuit" because of touching of two antennas is you saying it's a "design flaw", without leaving any room for a production issue, a bad batch of components or a SW/driver issue. I don't think it's wise to jump the gun and state a theory as absolute fact.

I've been in low signal areas testing this and it's never once shown any real change in my ability to make a call or my data throughput. On top of that, there are plenty of videos demonstrating that you can go from 5 bars (-51dB to -91dB) to No Service within a few seconds and completely and instantly stopping data throughput by touching the 3G-Spot. Yet I or anyone else I know can reproduce this effect with 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 or even zero bars. I did meet a person I met in a coffee shop this past week with the issue and it happened just as described in the videos. I could do it on his phone and he couldn't do it on mine.

It is absolutely caused by shorting the two antennas. You can wrap your hands around the entire metal band EXCEPT for the part that connects the two antennas on the bottom left. When doing this, there is no recognizable issue with the reception.

The issue ONLY appears (at least to this recognizable extent) when the two antennas are connected. And it can be shorted by something as thin and small as a paper clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgouzUMlQpY

I have been able to replicate the issue on EVERY SINGLE iPhone 4 that I've tested. That's at least a dozen iPhones. Perhaps it's just a production issue with a batch of phones. In that case, the company should replace those phones. In fact, I've had my phone replaced (due to a camera issue with my first phone) and the new phone has the exact same issue. So it's either a "production issue" that affects nearly every single phone produced, or it's a "design flaw" that affects nearly every single phone produced. In the end, all I really care is that Apple admits the issue and fixes the issue.
post #347 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt View Post

It is absolutely caused by shorting the two antennas. You can wrap your hands around the entire metal band EXCEPT for the part that connects the two antennas on the bottom left. When doing this, there is no recognizable issue with the reception.

The issue ONLY appears (at least to this recognizable extent) when the two antennas are connected. And it can be shorted by something as thin and small as a paper clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgouzUMlQpY

Do you realize what a "short circuit" is. What is being shorted. If it's a design flaw affecting ALL iPhone 4s then why can't it be reproduced on every iPhone 4, regardless of indicated signal strength when both antennas are touched. For your conclusion that's in impossible that would have to happen. Since it doesn't it should indicate there is something else at play besides Apple being complete idiots and not having a single person on staff who understands how RF, antennas or attenuation works.

http://vimeo.com/12864890 Lex parsimoniae.
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post #348 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Do you realize what a "short circuit" is. What is being shorted.

Of course I do. The two antennas are being shorted, causing the issue.

Quote:
If it's a design flaw affecting ALL iPhone 4s then why can't it be reproduced on every iPhone 4, regardless of indicated signal strength when both antennas are touched. For your conclusion that's in impossible that would have to happen.

http://vimeo.com/12864890 Lex parsimoniae.

The video shows exactly what I've been describing. You can cover the entire phone and it won't cause the problem. But as soon as you short the two antennas, it significantly affects the signal. Did you post the video to prove my point or yours?

The issue has been replicated on every single iPhone 4 I've seen. I have yet to see a unit that couldn't replicate the issue. In fact, the issue has become so pronounced that you have virtually every media outlet reporting the issue. There may be some units that are not affected (I doubt it), but those would be the rare exception and not the rule.

Quote:
Since it doesn't it should indicate there is something else at play besides Apple being complete idiots and not having a single person on staff who understands how RF, antennas or attenuation works.

That is not the case at all. First, it hasn't been shown that there are units that are not affected by this issue. Granted, it would be near impossible to definitely prove that any particular unit isn't affected. Regardless, that any single unit isn't affected would not disprove that the issue is shorting the antennas. And it also wouldn't disprove that it's a design flaw.

The evidence shows that the vast majority of units, if not every unit, is affected. The evidence shows that covering the entire phone, except the portion that creates a short, does not cause an issue. The evidence shows that creating even the tiniest of shorts causes the issue. There is no strong evidence showing that any phone is not affected.

To continue to ignore this evidence is being wilfully ignorant. You can say we don't "know [anything] with certainty." Yes, I don't know for a fact that a billion dollars exists, because of I've never seen it. But the great weight of the evidence suggests that it does. And the great weight of the evidence shows that the issue with the iPhone 4 is shorting the two antennas.
post #349 of 376
The lack of critical thinking is amazing. I can longer try to instill objective reasoning and teach critical thinking to people who want to react first and think later. RIP scientific method.

Fine, you win, it's a design flaw that just so happens to not affect all units made from that exact same design, using the exact same 3G towers, and being tested in the exact same way, in the exact same relative place at the exact time. I suppose it's just a coincidence that one phone would stop downloading data every time while the other never skipped a beat. Purely a coincidence, or maybe I just have a magic phone.
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post #350 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The lack of critical thinking is amazing. I can longer try to instill objective reasoning and teach critical thinking to people who want to react first and think later. RIP scientific method.

Fine, you win, it's a design flaw that just so happens to not affect all units made from that exact same design, using the exact same 3G towers, and being tested in the exact same way, in the exact same relative place at the exact time. I suppose it's just a coincidence that one phone would stop downloading data every time while the other never skipped a beat. Purely a coincidence, or maybe I just have a magic phone.

No, based on the evidence we have, it's a design flaw that affects all units. As far as I can tell, there isn't a unit that exists that isn't affected. And if there is a unit that isn't affected (though I doubt one exists until proven otherwise), there may be explanations for why the design flaw is not affecting that unit.

You can say it isn't a design flaw until you're blue in the face -- wilful ignorance isn't an uncommon thing. All facts and logic point to the issue being a design flaw, however.

Edit: Actually, I just noticed that you have 17,000+ posts on an Apple forum. That explains everything I need to know about your position on the topic. You're likely a personality that will unreasonably defend the product despite all facts, logic, and evidence pointing to the contrary.
post #351 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt View Post

As far as I can tell, there isn't a unit that exists that isn't affected.

Hence my previous comment.
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post #352 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Hence my previous comment.

Pardon me, if I base my opinion on verifiable facts.
post #353 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt View Post

Pardon me, if I base my opinion on verifiable facts.

Yet your opinion is that all iPhone 4s are affected, bar none. That it can't be an assembly line (production) issue, that it can't be a component (production) issue, that it has to be every and all iPhone 4s because of the design itself.

You are not being objective or reasonable here. You're making an assumption based on limited information, excluding all information that even begins to go against your belief, and stating your opinion as an unwavering fact.
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post #354 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt View Post

The issue isn't signal attenuation. The issue is "shorting" the two antennas. This has absolutely nothing to do with the signal attenuation that is common on all phones. This has to do with a malfunction caused by shorting two separate antennas.

The inductive coupling by touching the gap will cause a change to the antenna length, which will make it suboptimal but it's not like it breaks the antenna, it drops the signal by 20dBm so it has a similar effect to normal signal attenuation - I've managed to make a 5 bar drop on my 3G by using a similar grip. The reason it looks like you lose all signal is because the lowest 4 bars are measured too close together.

The antenna still has a design flaw most certainly but as the AI writer put it, it's not that much different from losing audio from covering the ear-piece or not being able to see the display by covering it or not being able to take a photo by having your finger in front of the lens. The biggest flaw comes from the notch being where some people naturally hold the phone making a call.

However, actual iPhone 4 owners mostly don't seem to have a problem avoiding it as there are no huge returns noted. Even if you hold it in your left hand, you can hold the phone with your fingers or just a little higher up - it only matters in low signal areas where you would normally have to make an active effort to get a good signal anyway.
post #355 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The inductive coupling by touching the gap will cause a change to the antenna length, which will make it suboptimal but it's not like it breaks the antenna, it drops the signal by 20dBm so it has a similar effect to normal signal attenuation - I've managed to make a 5 bar drop on my 3G by using a similar grip. The reason it looks like you lose all signal is because the lowest 4 bars are measured too close together.

No.
The coupling is capacitive. Antenna's length, sure, changes. But what is more important, antenna is ``loaded' ' either with input circuitry of WiFi/BT/GPS radio or with a human body plain and simple. It changes antenna's resonance frequency, so it becomes untuned.

As a matter of fact, it's even more interesting. The lower portion of UMTS antenna should obligatory be transmitting part to satisfy FCC requirements. See where I'm going with that?

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post #356 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

Apple were no doubt perfectly aware of the issue as Steve was marketing bumpers right within his so tightly timed keynote.

Yeah, and it's even more peculiar because Steve has never done that before.

(***ssssockssss!!!***) Excuse me. I must have sneezed.
post #357 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, and it's even more peculiar because Steve has never done that before.

(***ssssockssss!!!***) Excuse me. I must have sneezed.

Well, he did advertise iPad dock connectors and keyboards, but I can not recall any single mention of so `unimportant' and seemingly cosmetic accessory in years of WWDC existence.

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post #358 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

No.
The coupling is capacitive. Antenna's length, sure, changes. But what is more important, antenna is ``loaded' ' either with input circuitry of WiFi/BT/GPS radio or with a human body plain and simple. It changes antenna's resonance frequency, so it becomes untuned.

As a matter of fact, it's even more interesting. The lower portion of UMTS antenna should obligatory be transmitting part to satisfy FCC requirements. See where I'm going with that?

This sounds like a SW/driver update could allow the device to understand this occurrence and retune itself accordingly.
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post #359 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The inductive coupling by touching the gap will cause a change to the antenna length, which will make it suboptimal but it's not like it breaks the antenna, it drops the signal by 20dBm so it has a similar effect to normal signal attenuation - I've managed to make a 5 bar drop on my 3G by using a similar grip. The reason it looks like you lose all signal is because the lowest 4 bars are measured too close together.

Dropping by 20dB-25dB isn't similar to "normal signal attenuation." You're likely not going to find another phone out there that has that level of signal attenuation. If you're in a low to medium strength signal, you will lose calls and data transfer almost completely. It's not just a cosmetic issue of losing bars, where signal remains sufficient.

Quote:
The antenna still has a design flaw most certainly but as the AI writer put it, it's not that much different from losing audio from covering the ear-piece or not being able to see the display by covering it or not being able to take a photo by having your finger in front of the lens. The biggest flaw comes from the notch being where some people naturally hold the phone making a call.

The bolded portion is an absurd statement. The biggest problem with this issue is that it's caused by placing your hand were it is naturally intended to be placed. All you have to do is google for pictures of Steve Jobs holding the iPhone and you'll see immediately that this way of holding the phone is natural. You don't cover the speaker or the display when holding the phone naturally.



Quote:
However, actual iPhone 4 owners mostly don't seem to have a problem avoiding it as there are no huge returns noted. Even if you hold it in your left hand, you can hold the phone with your fingers or just a little higher up - it only matters in low signal areas where you would normally have to make an active effort to get a good signal anyway.

I agree that it's not as big a problem as some might make it out to be. And it's certainly not a big enough issue for me to return my phone -- particularly because other than this issue, it's the best phone out there in my opinion. But it is an issue. And it's a big enough issue that it should have been discovered and remedied before they brought the thing to market.

This design flaw has put a massive chink in Apple's armor. One of the reasons it's such a big story is that this is shocking mistake from a company that doesn't make mistakes like this. If Dell has 20 million computers recalled, no one cares, because that sort of thing is expected from other companies. But this is unacceptable for Apple. And the fact at they've come off as arrogant in their response is particularly bad.
post #360 of 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

No.
The coupling is capacitive. Antenna's length, sure, changes. But what is more important, antenna is ``loaded' ' either with input circuitry of WiFi/BT/GPS radio or with a human body plain and simple. It changes antenna's resonance frequency, so it becomes untuned.

As a matter of fact, it's even more interesting. The lower portion of UMTS antenna should obligatory be transmitting part to satisfy FCC requirements. See where I'm going with that?

If it was capacitive coupling, a thin piece of tape would stop the issue on all phones, but it doesn't seem to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPp1-LWY7Jw

Quote:
Originally Posted by theogt

All you have to do is google for pictures of Steve Jobs holding the iPhone and you'll see immediately that this way of holding the phone is natural.

That's not really a natural calling position, when I make a call personally, I hold it in my right hand and face it towards my ear. For 3G data access it's different but this issue wouldn't affect my calling and I rarely ever use 3G for data as it's still much slower than wifi.

Again, not saying it's not a bad design, it just won't affect everyone in the real-world.
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