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Wireless experts weigh in on iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 2

post #41 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The testing is interesting but people seem to be reaching wildly different conclusions from it being not a problem to it making a lousy phone. One guy on Engadget commented that out of all the phones between him and co-workers, the iPhone 4 was the only one that could make a call 20ft underground. Others are reporting much fewer dropped calls than previous iPhones.

Then there are those reporting the exact opposite. I guess this is the magic that Johnny Ive keeps going on about - it exceeds your ability to understand how it works and when it doesn't, they don't know how to fix it.

It didn't even seem to hold up too well inside the case when held wrongly.

The problem is that there's nothing other than anecdotal evidence. Anand at least made an attempt to measure things in a semi-controlled environment. and to implement controls. Gaywood did neither.

Note also, that Anand's conclusions were that the iPhone 4, even with its minor glitches was a considerably better phone than the iPhone 3GS - or any other phone on the market. And that was after a wide range of comparisons, not just Gaywood's one uncontrolled experiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

As much as I love Apple (and I own many of their products), I have to admit that I'm baffled at their (Apple's) lack of a real response (so far) and apparent indifference on this issue.

How do you know there's no response? Are you managing Apple's R&D labs? Based on history, they're not going to say much until they have a fix.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
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post #42 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Apple almost never responds unless they have a fix ready.

Yeah, I know, but I'm still on the bubble as to whether I'll keep my iPhone 4 or not. I'm hoping we'll know something definitive from them before my return period is over.
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post #43 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:09am
Finally, something approaching scientific testing is bringing some light to this issue, and not just smoke.

I always hate it when people who are wrong fail to admit it. Let me be the first to say that any posts I have made on the several threads devoted to this subject in which I have characterized dissenting posts as "hysteria" I repudiate.

This does not mean that I accept these two tests as definitive. But it does mean that they have cast real doubt on my position, to the point where I cannot continue to assert it.

The next step is to see that these tests are reproducible. Further, I still don't know what the motivations of the testers are, whether they are affiliated with or fans of competing products. Whether others were involved in checking their work or if they worked alone. And I am troubled by the fact that Mr. Gaywood made a post here, the tone of which was something other than what I would expect of a serious researcher--a little starstruck and defensive it seemed to me.

So, until further studies confirm these preliminary ones, count me as neutral on the subject.
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post #44 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

I did not miss anything in your post. It has been already explained thousand times, that in zones of 5 bars reception the loss of connectivity, which you can only achieve by loading the UMTS antenna with either GPS/Bluetooth input circuits or your own body can not influence the integrity of received data.

Care to read more about discussed issues before you post.

Yep, like thousand posts where the bars were dropped like a stone from 5 to nothing just by merely touching the gap with a finger
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post #45 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:10am
Originally Posted by Robin Huber
"One very big difference is that Toyota took a very long time to address their issue (years?). Apple is being pilloried because it hasn't solved the problem in a week.

Defining the words you use, assuming other readers of this forum are not as literate as you, is presumptuous and demeaning. Use the best word, as you did, and let others decide whether to look it up if they need to.

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments. "


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

The difference, I think, isn't that Apple hasn't solved it. They are being pilloried because they won't even acknowledge it. Maybe Dick and Anand are wrong and Jobs is right and there is no problem. If, however, there is a problem unique to the design of the iPhone 4, then they deserve to be called on it, if they choose instead to simply deny the problem.

Let's also not forget that a car is a potentially deadly device. A car that accelerates when you don't want it to gets people killed. Not exactly on the same level with a minor inconvenience.
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post #46 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

One guy on Engadget commented that out of all the phones between him and co-workers, the iPhone 4 was the only one that could make a call 20ft underground.

Look at 4's UMTS antenna length.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #47 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:12am
http://www.sourcingmap.com/iphone4-c...sort=4d&page=1

$2 for a case, $3.50 for a case and screen protector.
if Apple thinks i'm spending 29 bucks on an 18-cent piece of silicone they're out of their minds.

[no i don't work for this company, it's just very cheap and the same design as every other iP4 case]
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post #48 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

Let's also not forget that a car is a potentially deadly device. A car that accelerates when you don't want it to gets people killed. Not exactly on the same level with a minor inconvenience.

Obviously, and the intent wasn't to equate the seriousness of the issues themselves. The response was simply to the post that compared the timing of the companies responses and the consumer reactions that followed.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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post #49 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:15am
I don't think people are reading the Anand article closely enough. Basically he is saying the antennae "issue" that people are making such a big deal about is at worst only a loss of 24db compared to the Nexus phone at a max loss of 17db. And on the good end the iPhone is actually better than the Nexus with a lower loss than the Nexus.

This is a very minor issue that will only have ANY impact if you are not in an area with decent 3G coverage to start with, and the Nexus wouldn't be much better off either.

All in all it's very very minor and if it was an issue for some people they can get the Apple bumpers and then they will end up with even better reception than the competing smartphones.
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post #50 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

For what it's worth, I pre-ordered on the 1st day and my iPhone 4 shipped on the 24th from China. It arrived yesterday morning (the 29th). Primary location is northern NJ. The overall signal strength where I live and work is good to excellent. I typically hold the phone in my right hand and currently don't have a case or bumper for my phone. I'm currently experiencing minimal or no noticeable attenuation based on the phone's signal strength display. As a result, I haven't felt the need to contact Apple to report a problem. However, it's only been 1 day and I'll see what happens over the coming week(s).

Considering I live in the Tri-State area I am well aware of the fact that NJ has always had great AT&T reception. If you had another iPhone previously you know that to already be the case.
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post #51 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

Dick Gaywood?

You beat me to it..


squirt squirt
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post #52 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:16am
HA!

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/a...r-some-reason/

Three Apple job postings for iPhone / iPad antenna engineers to "Define and implement antenna system architecture to optimize the radiation performance for wireless portable devices." All three were posted on June 23rd, the same day that we started seeing widespread reporting of the left-handed reception issues. Coincidence?
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post #53 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

How do you know there's no response? Are you managing Apple's R&D labs? Based on history, they're not going to say much until they have a fix.

Easy there, no reason to attack. First, I qualified my statement with a "so far". 2nd, your last sentence answers your 1st question. So, using your own words, since "they haven't said much", I can only assume there isn't a fix (yet). Believe me, I love my iPhone 4 so far and some kind of a fix would put my mind at ease.
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post #54 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

Perhaps you are correct and I should have not posted the definition. I meant no offense.

I post under the assumption that the majority of people on here are smarter and better informed then I.

Perhaps my own characterization of your intentions was presumptuous. Your not rising to the bait was gentlemanly. Sorry for my own immoderation.
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post #55 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:18am
Please, if you don't have Anandtech's permission (which, admittedly, you might), this is nothing but plagiarism. The amount of reused text and images goes well beyond Fair Use.

It's an excellent article. AppleInsiders who want to should go read it, not see it regurgitated here.
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post #56 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

For what it's worth, I pre-ordered on the 1st day and my iPhone 4 shipped on the 24th from China. It arrived yesterday morning (the 29th). Primary location is northern NJ. The overall signal strength where I live and work is good to excellent. I typically hold the phone in my right hand and currently don't have a case or bumper for my phone. I'm currently experiencing minimal or no noticeable attenuation based on the phone's signal strength display. As a result, I haven't felt the need to contact Apple to report a problem. However, it's only been 1 day and I'll see what happens over the coming week(s).

Thank you Rob.

For what it is worth, you are the first person here to identify themselves as actually having an iPhone 4. Which is already telling.
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post #57 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giffen View Post

I don't think people are reading the Anand article closely enough. Basically he is saying the antennae "issue" that people are making such a big deal about is at worst only a loss of 24db compared to the Nexus phone at a max loss of 17db. And on the good end the iPhone is actually better than the Nexus with a lower loss than the Nexus.

This is a very minor issue that will only have ANY impact if you are not in an area with decent 3G coverage to start with, and the Nexus wouldn't be much better off either.

All in all it's very very minor and if it was an issue for some people they can get the Apple bumpers and then they will end up with even better reception than the competing smartphones.

there's not note of how long they held the phone in the palm of their left hand. i can stand five feet from my microcell and if i hold the phone in my left palm the signal SLOWLY drops to NO SERVICE in about two minutes.
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post #58 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:19am
Apple needs to give bumpers to iPhone 4 buyers, because this problem was entirely foreseeable. It's an obvious problem to anyone with an ounce of electrical engineering knowledge. As Gaywood noted, "other modern cell phones don't have electrically active components in contact with their bare skin" -- for good reason.

I'd also suggest Apple knows something about iPhone 4 crash resistance (or lack thereof). When weighed with the antenna issue, for the very first time Apple was compelled to produce a protective "case" for any iPhone/iPod.

The iPhone 4 weight and dimensions should include the bumper.

These problems are so obvious, Apple surely had a contingency plan.
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post #59 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardGaywood View Post

Yesterday I'm called out by name on Daring Fireball, today I'm being discussed on AppleInsider alongsite Anand Lai Shimpi! I'm really rubbing shoulders with my blogging heros...

Hello Mr. Gaywood,

thanks for sharing your information. Also thanks to Anand, Gruber and AI.
These articles helped to understand some observations.

The only point I tend to disagree is that some effects can't be addressed by a software update, which doesn't mean that they will magically go away but the negative impact might be reduced significantly.

My confidence is based on progress in control engineering solving problems that were considered impossible to fix when I was at university.

BTW: I can confirm the grip-problem but have better reception on Wifi, GPS and when I hold the phone as recommended (which isn't my natural way in some cases) compared to my 3G.
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post #60 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

if Apple thinks i'm spending 29 bucks on an 18-cent piece of silicone they're out of their minds.

Well, technically, it's plastic and silicone (or rubber) and 3 metal buttons. Still, it shouldn't cost as much as a full case for my 3G.
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post #61 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

Well, it looks like this is a hardware problem that won't be fixed with a software update. I don't think this will end well for Apple considering they plan to ignore the problem completely.

Actually not. If you read closely, a large part of what the first expert said (and no offence to Richard Gaywood but he says in his own blog that he is actually *not* an antenna expert so the first expert is the one to really listen to), is that a big part of the problem is the way in which the bars are displayed. In many cases, there is a dramatic dropping of bars but only in marginal signal areas does it actually mean the call might be dropped.

So while the ultimate fix might be in the manufacturing, there is a fix for the firmware or software that might alleviate the problem a great deal. By changing the algorithm that determines the bars, they can hopefully fine tune it so that a large part of the problem goes away.
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post #62 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacto Joe View Post

Let's also not forget that a car is a potentially deadly device. A car that accelerates when you don't want it to gets people killed. Not exactly on the same level with a minor inconvenience.

Let's also remember that phones can save people's lives. God forbid you're injured in an accident and you can't get a reception because you're holding it the wrong way.

A working phone is one of the most important survival tools in today's world.
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post #63 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

Considering I live in the Tri-State area I am well aware of the fact that NJ has always had great AT&T reception. If you had another iPhone previously you know that to already be the case.

Hey, I was just replying to Onhka's survey. What's with the attitude?
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post #64 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:26am
I just realized that my wife and I have been making a real effort to not hold our iPhone 3G's to our ears, using the speakerphone function instead. This was motivated by uncertainties regarding exposure to radiation. I mean, if the FCC mandated that all antennas be located at the bottom of the phone for this reason, why not move them even farther by holding the phone away from your face entirely? That being the case, my grip naturally would not cause the antenna problems being discussed. Not a solution, but worth noting.

iPhone 4 on order.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #65 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

Yep, like thousand posts where the bars were dropped like a stone from 5 to nothing just by merely touching the gap with a finger

Not by "merely touching with a finger". That's obvious bull.
Showing "iPhone flaw" people always gripped phones in very special way, very tightly, creating contact areas (or capacitor plates) of considerable size. And reception drop is easily visible rather in low signal zones.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #66 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by desarc View Post

http://www.sourcingmap.com/iphone4-c...sort=4d&page=1

$2 for a case, $3.50 for a case and screen protector.
if Apple thinks i'm spending 29 bucks on an 18-cent piece of silicone they're out of their minds.

[no i don't work for this company, it's just very cheap and the same design as every other iP4 case]

You get what you pay for.

I find it funny that before the antenna problem you'd be hard pressed to find someone on this forum who *didn't* use a case, now that the easiest answer to the antenna issue is buying a case, no one wants to?

Also, almost every case I've ever seen is roughly 30 bucks. Sure, you can get cheaper ones, but 30 bucks is not "out of line," "over the top" or any one of those superlatives being dropped about them today.

Apple's bumper is probably one of the best designed cases out there, it's far from "an 18 cent piece off silicone" and probably cost a lot more to make than the junk on your link. It has integrated mechanical buttons for one thing, it has much higher manufacturing tolerances for another, and it's made out of a different material for a third.

You get what you pay for.
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post #67 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Thank you Rob.

For what it is worth, you are the first person here to identify themselves as actually having an iPhone 4. Which is already telling.

You're welcome. There's simply not enough detail in the info out there to draw any accurate conclusions.
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post #68 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Hey, I was just replying to Onhka's survey. What's with the attitude?

I am afraid to suggest that he doesn't have an iPhone 4.
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post #69 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

What has me concerned is that this is going to turn into Apple's Toyota moment.
.

Right.
People are dying because they can't skootch their hand a millimeter one way or the other.

I've never seen such screwed up priorities and childish whining as I have in the past week.
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post #70 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:32am
Whatever the real problem is, clearly this another point that Awhen pple is going to become meticulous about. Most times, when sufficient people have complained about some issue, Apple appears to have made an effort to address it in the next generation, especially those getting media attention.

I will be curious to see the impact of the next point point release.
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post #71 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Hey, I was just replying to Onhka's survey. What's with the attitude?

Maybe it's up to interpretation but I meant no attitude whatsoever. I was merely pointing out that NJ has always had great reception. I don't know if you owned an iPhone before but, if you did, you'd already know this to be true. The problem is for those who have average reception and it drops to no 0 bars or no signal.
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post #72 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:34am
No problems with reception at all, with or without the bumper. What in the world is with all the hysteria by the media and whinners?
Give us a big break and buy that Google crap!
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post #73 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

Yes, that means there isn't a problem that needs to be fixed. And of course, it should be up to the consumer to correct a manufacturing/engineering/design problem.

Or return it and buy a different phone. Sheesh!

What do you care anyway, don't you use an Android phone?

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post #74 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:39am
Changing the way bars are displayed does not fix the antenna problem, it only changes the way signal strength is being reported by the phone. There is no software fix for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Actually not. If you read closely, a large part of what the first expert said (and no offence to Richard Gaywood but he says in his own blog that he is actually *not* an antenna expert so the first expert is the one to really listen to), is that a big part of the problem is the way in which the bars are displayed. In many cases, there is a dramatic dropping of bars but only in marginal signal areas does it actually mean the call might be dropped.

So while the ultimate fix might be in the manufacturing, there is a fix for the firmware or software that might alleviate the problem a great deal. By changing the algorithm that determines the bars, they can hopefully fine tune it so that a large part of the problem goes away.
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post #75 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

Dick Gaywood?

Grow up.

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post #76 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

Maybe it's up to interpretation but I meant no attitude whatsoever. I was merely pointing out that NJ has always had great reception. I don't know if you owned an iPhone before but, if you did, you'd already know this to be true. The problem is for those who have average reception and it drops to no 0 bars or no signal.

Fair enough. Like I said, I was just responding to Onhka's survey. I've had an iPhone 3G for almost 2 years now and can't complain about the coverage here. And yes, I agree the real problem is for those who have medium to low signal strength. 24dB off of great signal strength is inconsequential, but 24dB off of low signal strength will leave you with nothing.
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post #77 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:43am


Hmm….

DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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DaHarder just got banned. Let's crack open the champagne.

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post #78 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:45am
Hey Guys,

Yea I posted a reception video on youtube as a sample to see the bars drop (mine drop FAST):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNHpvElnqmU

I also followed up with testing it with a case as well as making my way to a store to ask the fantastic apple reps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbJDi5B7ibU

My conclusion is the same as the PH.D in the article, fantastic device, lousy phone capabilities .

Will

www.youtube.com/tekbeattv
www.tekbeattv.com
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post #79 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by antkm1 View Post

So, assuming the idea proposed that if you could "coat" the metal band in something, like thin skin of plastic or laquer, perhaps Apple could somehow implement this into thier current production so that phone on the assembly line can be called back, have the metal bars coated and placed back on the line without a hitch?

Sound like a pretty simple solution to me, I hope Apple read these articles!

What! A design flaw? Impossible if all owners are not affected.

(You need look no further than Toyota for a design flaw that did not affect all owners.)
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post #80 of 376
6/30/10 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob55 View Post

Fair enough. Like I said, I was just responding to Onhka's survey. I've had an iPhone 3G for almost 2 years now and can't complain about the coverage here. And yes, I agree the real problem is for those who have medium to low signal strength. 24dB off of great signal strength is inconsequential, but 24dB off of low signal strength will leave you with nothing.

Agree with everything you sad and I'm glad that you're happy with your new iPhone.
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