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Apple sued over iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 8

post #281 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

As far as I know it is. They don't assess a return fee if you exchange the phone which they'll do if they find it defective, but if you just want to return it they will, unless they agree it's defective. So far they are not.

That's not how it works in the US. They will try to get you another phone (that's just good business), but you are not bound by law to take it. If you do get a replacement they may even open it up for you and make sure this one works before you leave the store(that's just good business), but they might not and you don't have to let them. You could then return the un-opened box for a full refund, if you think you actually need to pull a fast one on an Apple Store employee. The entire premise that ANY opened iPhone requires a 10% restocking fee is completely BS.

This is well documented stuff. The great thing about living in this day and age is customer protection policies. I recall one of Stephen Hawking's books having an anecdote about a train set he bought as a kid. it went into what a poor product it was and how there was little to no recourse at the time if it was defective. I forget his point, but I recall comparison present day.
If a hardware defect arises and a valid claim is received within the Warranty Period, at its option and to the extent permitted by law, Apple will either (1) repair the hardware defect at no charge, using new parts or refurbished parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability, (2) exchange the product with a product that is new or refurbished that is equivalent to new in performance and reliability and is at least functionally equivalent to the original product, or (3) refund the purchase price of the product.
http://images.apple.com/legal/warran...4_warranty.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

There is a big difference between a defective phone and a phone that is returned to the store. A defective phone qualifies for immediate exchange. A phone that is returned opened and with a complaint of an antenna reception problem that these people are experiencing is classified as a non-defective return and requires a 10% restocking fee.

That's not what you keep writing to jragosta when he says differently. You keep writing ANY in all caps and trollishly using a large font.

You've also ignored the obvious. If Apple does replace phones that are defective, and they aren't replacing phones you claim are defective, doesn't that tell you Apple hasn't determined that the phones are defective?
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post #282 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle76 View Post

Don't be an argumentative idiot. I was told when I picked up my phone I had 30 days to return it for a full refund if I didn't like it. Not if it was defective -- if I didn't like it. I am certain anyone returning a phone because they are not satisfied with the reception will have no trouble getting ALL of their money back.


Dunno what "someone" told you, but there have Bern numerous links in the last two pages to the official policy on Apple's website. That is the final word on Apple's policies.
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post #283 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

That doesn't apply to defects and only applies to the online store - not the retail stores.

And, you don't think that hundreds of thousands of customers didn't buy from Apple's online store?!
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post #284 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:48am
I'm just here to enjoy the trolls You don't see anyone suing nokia, google, HTC, motorola or any other company with the same issues, oh wait that's because they didn't sell 1.5 million phones in 2 days and aren't a quick target, my wife's Nexus One SUCKS for "holding it" issues .. maybe i should get her to sue huh... WHOOT .. IM RICH BITCH
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post #285 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:49am
How predictable. How useless. When are we going to make plaintiffs liable for costs if they lose? That would rid us of many of the more speculative and frivolous lawsuits of this sort.
A.k.a. AppleHead on other forums.
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post #286 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

Dunno what "someone" told you, but there have Bern numerous links in the last two pages to the official policy on Apple's website. That is the final word on Apple's policies.

Well, but weren't those all posted by the same person? There has also been evidence presented to contradict that this policy is applied as indicated. So, which is really the final word?
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post #287 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

"Steve Jobs" and "philanthropy" in the same sentence - LOL


Heck, if Bill Gates can do it, I'd think it would be a cakewalk for Jobs.
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post #288 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by applebook View Post

Now if every brand new product generated class action lawsuits for major glitches and design issues, then ignoble lawyers would be even richer than they already are.

Maybe some of these litigious folks should wait for the software fix before suing.

Please indicate where Apple said anything remotely sounding like a 'Softare fix'? Apple at this point in time has said that there is no problem at all - that we are all a bunch of retards that have no idea how to hold a phone.

Sometimes a pistol against a head is what it takes for a brain damaged company to do the right thing.
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post #289 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle76 View Post

Don't be an argumentative idiot. I was told when I picked up my phone I had 30 days to return it for a full refund if I didn't like it. Not if it was defective -- if I didn't like it. I am certain anyone returning a phone because they are not satisfied with the reception will have no trouble getting ALL of their money back.

Full refund means you get the full purchase amount back from Apple, including the principal amount and tax.

However, you still pay a restocking fee. That's 10%. On a $300 phone, you pay $320 with tax, and you get refunded the $320, but you are obligated to pay the 10% restocking fee on that amount.
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post #290 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EXCOP72 View Post

My issues is this: 1,700,000 phones were sold, yet a small portion are having this issue!

How do you know only a small percentage is affected ?
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post #291 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That's not what you keep writing to jragosta when he says differently. You keep writing ANY in all caps and trollishly using a large font.

You've also ignored the obvious. If Apple does replace phones that are defective, and they aren't replacing phones you claim are defective, doesn't that tell you Apple hasn't determined that the phones are defective?

Any phone means any non-defective phone, you know that. There is a separate policy for non-defective and defective phones.

The return policy is clear about that if you bothered to spend the 5 minutes to read through it.
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post #292 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EXCOP72 View Post

I'm sorry, but I'm with Mr. Jobs on this one. If you have to GRIP your phone by wrapping your hand around the whole of the back and sides, then you're holding it wrong.

I challenge you to surf the web (or do anything else with it that requires the unit to be flat, pointed towards your eyes) without in some way cupping it in your left hand (if you're right-handed). If you're solely on 3G, the signal drop - for those who have the problem, like I do -- then essentially nullifies what you're trying to accomplish.

I can certainly try and hold it in a way that mitigates the problem, but all the ones I've tried typically increase the chance that the phone might slip out of my hand.
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post #293 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Any phone means any non-defective phone, you know that. There is a separate policy for non-defective and defective phones.

The return policy is clear about that if you bothered to spend the 5 minutes to read through it.

But Apple claims these are non-defective phones. They claim this is normal operation for a cell phone. So to them, it's not defective.
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post #294 of 414
7/1/10 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And, you don't think that hundreds of thousands of customers didn't buy from Apple's online store?!

I don't think anybody outside of Apple or AT&T can give us those figures - and again, if the phones are defective, you should not have to pay for a restocking fee.
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post #295 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

It's only certain segment of the customers who are psychopaths. It's no different than the user discussion forums where only those with problems show up. They quickly extrapolate their fellow commiserators to include the entire Apple universe, quickly and solemnly declaring their issue to be universal or widespread. They feel more reassured if they are not alone in their fury against Apple. It also masks their inability to actually know what the issue really is.

So it is with the Death Grip issue. It's almost a certainty that this involves a minority of users. A whole lot of people are running off at the mouth, posting links, furiously ramping up the heat yet don't even own the device. What's up with that? But they are enraged and vocal so it only SEEMS they are the majority. They are not. They are the psychopaths.

FT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

There is a big difference between a defective phone and a phone that is returned to the store. A defective phone qualifies for immediate exchange. A phone that is returned opened and with a complaint of an antenna reception problem that these people are experiencing is classified as a non-defective return and requires a 10% restocking fee.

It's really this simple:

- If the phone is defective, Apple will refund 100% of your money.
- If the phone is not defective, Apple keeps 10% -- but since they only do that on non-defective phones, that's reasonable.

So, it's up to you. If you can prove that the phone is defective, you get your money back. All you need is to prove your complaint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I think there is an obvious tone of hysteria and anger in your posts. However, let's put it to the forum. How many of you think ski1's response on this issue is over the top considering he isn't affected by iP4 issues because he doesn't own one?

ROTFLMAO. I've argued that NO ONE who doesn't have an iPhone 4 should be babbling about problems with them, but he's by far the worst.
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post #296 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

I don't think anybody outside of Apple or AT&T can give us those figures - and again, if the phones are defective, you should not have to pay for a restocking fee.


I do believe seeing a 600,000 number sold during the pre-release on the Apple Online Store a couple of weeks ago.
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post #297 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple claims these are non-defective phones. They claim this is normal operation for a cell phone. So to them, it's not defective.

Is it just me, or is ski1 starting to sound a bit like an alias tekstud was holding in the bag for when his Stevie alias eventually got banned?
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post #298 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle76 View Post

Don't be an argumentative idiot.

Look, you can look up past interactions and know that I am not g3pro's biggest fan. He's almost always negative about Apple.

That is, however, no excuse for calling him names.

Be a gentleman, and take it back.
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post #299 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple claims these are non-defective phones. They claim this is normal operation for a cell phone. So to them, it's not defective.

Unless you can provide an official link that says what Apple considered a defect or not (From Apple.com or from somebody on the record from Apple), you cannot say that with absolute certainty. Even if you could, it would be meaningless anyway - Apple cannot state such a thing as not being a defect - no company can just deny something is a defect.
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post #300 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Any phone means any non-defective phone, you know that. There is a separate policy for non-defective and defective phones.

The return policy is clear about that if you bothered to spend the 5 minutes to read through it.

We're not talking about a return policy because you just don't want it, we're talking about a defective unit. This is your entire argument and now you're changing it. Apple will refund you ALL your money, if you desire, if the unit is defective. The fact they aren't doing this should tell you something.

To restate:
Quote:
This is well documented stuff. The great thing about living in this day and age is customer protection policies. I recall one of Stephen Hawking's books having an anecdote about a train set he bought as a kid. it went into what a poor product it was and how there was little to no recourse at the time if it was defective. I forget his point, but I recall comparison present day.
If a hardware defect arises and a valid claim is received within the Warranty Period, at its option and to the extent permitted by law, Apple will either (1) repair the hardware defect at no charge, using new parts or refurbished parts that are equivalent to new in performance and reliability, (2) exchange the product with a product that is new or refurbished that is equivalent to new in performance and reliability and is at least functionally equivalent to the original product, or (3) refund the purchase price of the product.
http://images.apple.com/legal/warran...4_warranty.pdf
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post #301 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

FT!


It's really this simple:

- If the phone is defective, Apple will refund 100% of your money.
- If the phone is not defective, Apple keeps 10% -- but since they only do that on non-defective phones, that's reasonable.

I don't doubt that. But who defines 'defective?' (I would have to imagine that it would have to be Apple or its reps).

I guess we'll know what really happens only if/when someone actually attempted to return it for the signal drop problem.

Until then, it is speculation, and not worthy of further discussion (imho).
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post #302 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NummiNutz View Post

I've been lurking, for a couple of days, on several of these threads, and I am overwhelmed by the amount of information.

This is my first post so be gentle!

We are in the USA and have an att plan

The little lady and I have ordered replacements for her 3G and my 3GS.

We are both happy with the phones and plan to sell them on ebay.

Our orders are both scheduled to ship tomorrow!

We are concerned that the new phones won't be as satifying as what we currently have,

We can cancel anytime before shipment.

We are seeking advice, pro and con on what to do.

What would you do in a similar situation?


I have an iPhone 4 and have not experienced the issue-- in fact, on Monday, I was on an hour-long call to a friend in Boston. She has a 3GS. The call kept dropping at her end, but never at my end-- it always refreshed?? As she would fade in and out, she would say: "well. that's AT&T". After, the call, she emailed me that she'd lost the ability to call out on her 3GS. I've never experienced anything like that on any iPhone (I've owned and used all of them).

As others have said, the iP4 is an amazing device: fast; reliable; beautiful to see and hold-- and the picture and video capability is amazing.

However, if you are unsure, you could cancel your orders, and wait until this issue is resolved:

If you are comfortable with eBay, you could resell them there, likely, at a tidy profit:

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=iph...286.m270.l1311

A $299 ($329 with tax) iP4 should bring in $800-$1,000.

But, then, you gotta' risk the temptation of Pandora's box!

.
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post #303 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

We're not talking about a return policy because you just don't want it, we're talking about a defective unit. This is your entire argument and now you're changing it. Apple will refund you ALL your money, if you desire, if the unit is defective. The fact they aren't doing this should tell you something.

Again, it's pure speculation on your part (as well as on the part of the those who are arguing against you) as to whether this problem constitutes 'defective' or not.

I don't see you guys doing anything other than a continued silly back-and-forth, splitting hairs forever on this issue, unless someone actually tries.

Move along.....
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post #304 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

How do you know only a small percentage is affected ?

How do YOU know that a large percentage is affected?
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post #305 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Again, it's pure speculation on your part (as well as on the part of the those who are arguing against you) as to whether this problem constitutes 'defective' or not.

I don't see you guys doing anything other than a continued silly back-and-forth, splitting hairs forever on this issue, unless someone actually tries.

Move along.....

That isn't my argument at all. I am sure there are defective units because I've seen them fist hand, and they were replaced, but even if I hadn't I can be certain there are because there are 3M a month being made and the chances of ZERO units being shipped without production defect is improbably to the nth degree.

My argument is that if there is a defect Apple will replace or refund it. Since they aren't doing so for the reception issue they think it's not a HW defect or haven't come to a conclusion at this time.

That does not mean that you cannot get a full refund for a device that is not behaving properly, even if the resolution is in a future SW update.
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post #306 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Again, it's pure speculation on your part (as well as on the part of the those who are arguing against you) as to whether this problem constitutes 'defective' or not.

I don't see you guys doing anything other than a continued silly back-and-forth, splitting hairs forever on this issue, unless someone actually tries.

Move along.....

Well, as I've stated, I don't think the bars dropping slightly when touching the antenna constitutes a defect, and the reviews and tests that deal with this would seem to bear that out: call quality still good, better than 3GS, etc.

The seam issue is a problem. So, find someone with an iP4 who doesn't have the seam problem, bring them along, demonstrate that one phone has the problem and one does not, and I don't see how they could maintain that the phone with the problem is not defective since it clearly exhibits a behavior that impacts use not shown by the other.
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post #307 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

But Apple claims these are non-defective phones. They claim this is normal operation for a cell phone. So to them, it's not defective.

Exactly.
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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post #308 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

We're not talking about a return policy because you just don't want it, we're talking about a defective unit. This is your entire argument and now you're changing it. Apple will refund you ALL your money, if you desire, if the unit is defective. The fact they aren't doing this should tell you something.

Apple says that the customers complaining of antenna problems are using non-defective phones.

Thus, they are forced to pay the 10% restocking fee.
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post #309 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

How do you know only a small percentage is affected ?

For starters, the phones are still selling. Next, if a large percentage were affected, you'd see massive returns. I've been in Best Buy, Apple Store, and Wal-Mart and have heard of no returns to speak of. Unlike most, I actually talk to the employees of these stores, especially when they see I have the new iPhone and a "what do you think of the reception issue?" conversation ensues.

Granted, I live in the St Louis area, which can be considered a major metropolitan area, where the signal strength should be top rate. Well, the signal is top rate; Downtown. In any other area, it's spotty at best, yet I've not dropped a single call more than my 2g iPhone, which leads me to believe there are dead spots.

Don't get me wrong, those having the problem are entitled to a working phone.

One thing NO ONE has mentioned is, is it entirely possible there is simply a bad batch of phones? We'd all be kidding ourselves if we thought each and every iPhone, hell any device, is 100%, 100% of the time.

I say give Apple a chance to at least look into the problem!

I remember reading somewhere quite recently, that 3GS phones were experiencing a similar problem when upgraded to iOS4, though I'm not sure if it's a hand position problem or not.
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post #310 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

no company can just deny something is a defect.

Steve Jobs did.
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post #311 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


... Just go to the Phone app Keypad, type in *3001#12345# then hit Call (this app is not on the iPhone 4). This will bring up a diagnostic app for the phone. You can ignore everything but the Db rating that has now replaced your AT&T bars.

...Mmmm... I didn't know about this! Apparently the app won't work on a 3G or 3GS that has been upgraded to iOS4

.
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post #312 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Steve Jobs did.

I don't accept emails as official corporate communications. Steve Jobs is not a company. He has in no way made any official statement that directs any employee not to allow defective returns on an iPhone.
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post #313 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

How do YOU know that a large percentage is affected?

I don't know if a large percentage is affected. But it appears this issue is affecting people more then normal.
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post #314 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

I don't accept emails as official corporate communications. Steve Jobs is not a company. He has in no way made any official statement that directs any employee not to allow defective returns on an iPhone.

Official Apple policy on the reception problem mirrors Steve Jobs' email
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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post #315 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

...Mmmm... I didn't know about this! Apparently the app won't work on a 3G or 3GS that has been upgraded to iOS4

.

I put my 3GS into field test mode, then upgraded it to iOS 4 and still have this. As a matter of fact, I've been looking for ways to get rid of it. Every time I open an app or click the Home button, it toggles between the numbers and the bars.

I've heard this over and over so apparently I'm the only iOS 4 user that still has this.
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post #316 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

...Mmmm... I didn't know about this! Apparently the app won't work on a 3G or 3GS that has been upgraded to iOS4

OK, I thought it was still in iOS 4.0, but not on the iPhone 4, for some reason.


Quote:
Originally Posted by diddy View Post

I don't accept emails as official corporate communications. Steve Jobs is not a company. He has in no way made any official statement that directs any employee not to allow defective returns on an iPhone.

This is why I hate his emails. Besides easily being faked there are too many potential opportunities for this type of one-on-one correspondence to come back and bite Apple in the arse. Unfortunately, my prediction has come true with his iPhone 4 antenna reply.
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post #317 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

OK, I thought it was still in iOS 4.0, but not on the iPhone 4, for some reason.

It's still there.....on my 3GS, running iOS 4.0.
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post #318 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This is why I hate his emails. Besides easily being faked there are too many potential opportunities for this type of one-on-one correspondence to come back and bite Apple in the arse.

Precisely:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...5&postcount=75

I expect we'll see Steve's email habits reigned in shortly by senior counsel.
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post #319 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:41am
This is beyond insane. Why is everyone in denial mode? With the exception of a few objective voices here, half of the posters are saying there are no problems and it is all about Apple-haters causing a stink. Meanwhile, the other half are screaming that all phones are defective and Apple should be sent to jail!

From reading as much information on this issue as I can stomach, it is 100% clear that some people are having legitimate issues, and some are not having issues at all. Please realize that both of these things are true. Not "could be true" but they are both true right now.

Just because person A is exepriencing these problems, doesn't mean that all phones are affected. AND, just because person B is perfectly happy and having no problems, doesn't mean that no one else can be having problems.

Stop acting like 6th graders. Grow up, show some maturity, and be patient while Apple investigates. It will all get sorted out eventually. I know Apple hasn't sent you a sweet greeting card apologizing and telling you they are looking into it. But rest assured that they are. Too much money is at stake for them not to get to the bottom of it. If for no other reason than to cover their ass.

Chill out!
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post #320 of 414
7/1/10 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle76 View Post

Don't be an argumentative idiot. I was told when I picked up my phone I had 30 days to return it for a full refund if I didn't like it. Not if it was defective -- if I didn't like it. I am certain anyone returning a phone because they are not satisfied with the reception will have no trouble getting ALL of their money back.

Unfortunately, what you were told does not jive with the written Apple retail policy.

The written policy states that you are charged a restocking fee if the product is not "defective." Unfortunately for those complaining here, Apple doesn't think that the antenna issue is a defect, so those trying to return because of the antenna issues may have to pay the 10% restocking fee.

iPad2 16 GB
iPhone 5 32 GB

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iPad2 16 GB
iPhone 5 32 GB

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