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Apple sued over iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 10

post #361 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

Not entirely - I just thought that Apple should be more willing to offer a solution, but they weren't even interested in talking to me, even though I had bought one of their Apple care warranty agreements. I then realized that they were correct in steering me back to ATT, since the original 30 days was in effect, after which you will find that ATT will not deal with it, and will send you to the Apple store for warranty issues. I accept their explanation, but It is a question of customer courtesy, since, after all, Apple derived a significant portion of my purchase money, and I was treated as if I didn't know what I was talking about. At least at ATT, they didn't even question my reception issues, but were trying to get out of refunding the Apple care agreement, even though they sold it to me. This is a typical "not my problem" issue. At least I was able to get squeaky on the wheel, and persevered with ATT until they agreed to do the right thing.

(since I am a first time poster here, some may wish to know my background, which started out in engineering in college, wound up in business, research and University teaching. Retired Army reserve colonel and Navy Fleet adviser, and now am an Optometrist, practicing in Palo Alto, CA. and have been a happy iPhone user, up until now, and have purchased several Macs for my son, who is in the audio engineering and recording field).

I have enjoyed reading in this forum, and look forward to contributing my 2 cents from time to time.

First, congratulations on the way you handled the issue. You prevailed by persisting and behaving rationally in a sensitive environment.

I am disappointed that the Apple store did not resolve the issue, but instead directed you to AT & T.

Did you talk to the store manager at the PA Apple store?

If so, and if you acted reasonably (as you appear to demonstrate in your posts), He and Apple missed a golden opportunity! They could have / should have evaluated the situation and resolved it then an there (including all the AT & T bits)* Having done that, they would, likely, have won you as a loyal customer for life... and that , sir, is a precious commodity!

* procedures must be in place so that either vendor in a multi-vendor sale, can resolve the issue on behalf of both vendors without shuffling the customer amongst them!

If the vendors can't establish a procedure to do this, they ought not be selling each other's products or services... simple as that.

The customer may not always be right, in fact... but in his eyes he is, and should be treated accordingly!

Boom!

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post #362 of 413
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Originally Posted by Trajectory View Post

HOT!! Love that case design. But, wow, pricey!!! $80 for a strip of formed aluminum?? But, it does look slick on the iPhone 4. I love this part of the product description:

Suddenly Apple's faulty antenna becomes a selling feature for case manufacturers! Maybe this was the goal all along.

Note that you can spend an extra $20 for a Carbon Fiber* back plate.


* Some of you might be thinking that carbon fiber (CF) Bumper would be great. Stylish and lightweight. Note that only the backplate is CF as CF is not radio transparent. In fact, one of it's uses in jets is to absorb RF to make it invisible to other radar. As I'm told, it essentially it works as a Faraday Cage letting RF into the plane of the material but then molecule alignment doesn't let it out, somewhat like Lobster cage for radio signals. (please correct or expand as needed)
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post #363 of 413
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You all thought Apple's Bumpers were expensive?
http://www.elementcase.com/

That is pure sex!

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post #364 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

First, congratulations on the way you handled the issue. You prevailed by persisting and behaving rationally in a sensitive environment.

Ditto. More a few people here can learn something about how to deal with a defective product.

Quote:
I am disappointed that the Apple store did not resolve the issue, but instead directed you to AT & T.

While it sounds like they didn't explain the reasoning very well, they were right to send him to an AT&T store for a refund (since this wasn't a warranty issue).

Apple sells the iPhone to their partners and they sell to consumers, making the sale itself the responsibility of the partner. There are legal issues here with balancing the books and whatnot. If you bought it at Best Buy which activated the iPhone 4 for AT&T where you signed the contract, you'd have to go to Best Buy at that point, not AT&T or Apple for any issue with sale.

Overall, buying an iPhone is pretty easy process compared to other phones. At least with the iPhone you have Apple dealing with all warranty claims. That is a very good thing. Remember the Nexus One launch where Sprint was pointing the finger at HTC and/or Google, and HTC pointing at Google and/or Sprint and Google pointing at Sprint and/or HTC for warranty claims. Good times!
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post #365 of 413
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Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, but weren't those all posted by the same person? There has also been evidence presented to contradict that this policy is applied as indicated. So, which is really the final word?

No, it has been linked to from Apple's site. The words are there in plain black and white English. No evidence has been presented to counter this that I have seen. People have stated they were told other things, but salesman say many things as it doesn't mean anything. When I see in writing that one can return the phone for 100% refund without a restocking fee, I'll believe it.

I have however found in writing an Apple Store policy saying that no restocking fee will be charged within the first 14 days,
post #366 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

No, it has been linked to from Apple's site. The words are there in plain black and white English. No evidence has been presented to counter this that I have seen. People have stated they were told other things, but salesman say many things as it doesn't mean anything. When I see in writing that one can return the phone for 100% refund without a restocking fee, I'll believe it.

I have however found in writing an Apple Store policy saying that no restocking fee will be charged within the first 14 days,

1) There is at least one testimonial written this very thread that an iPhone 4 was taken back and all fees were refunded and the newly signed contract was dissolved.

2) There are many posters who claim they've been told by Apple Store employees written in this very thread that you have 30 days to use the device risk free because the box has to be opened to activate the account.

3) The return policy for every Apple Store product, sans the iPhone, is 14 days. The return policy for the iPhone is 30 days. That isn't only written in this thread, but also linked to in this thread to it being written on Apple's site.

4) I myself wrote in this very thread as well as linked to Apple's site in this very thread of Apple's refund policy showing no risk for those who wish to return a faulty item and get a full refund over a replacement.
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post #367 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Welcome to the forum. This is one of my favorite forums even though it's not as technical as some (since they cover business aspects quite a bit) it's usually the most mature and well rounded.

It's definitely shitty that they were trying not to refund the AppleCare you bought with the product, and it's good you persisted. At least you didn't buy it at BestBuy where screwing the customer is part of their training. I wouldn't be surprised if they accepted returns if you also bought a Bumper because otherwise you wouldn't have a bumper-to-bumper warranty (wow, that one was really bad).

But the conclusion is they refunded you every last penny and canceled that contract because of the reception issue?

Yep - Don't get me wrong, because the Apple store in Palo Alto is one of the best in the area, as is the ATT store - they have to be to exist in the heart of Silly Valley. The Apple guys were cordial, but weren't entirely buying my explanation, since they cannot get the same problem in the store (probably an ATT cellphone tower built into the woodwork, for all I know). Same issue at ATT - this means everyone who goes down to these stores is likely to get the "rolling of the eyes" unless the staff member has personally gone out into the hinterlands to test the ip4 in the real-world of spectrum variability.

Anyhow, I know the ATT guys, who are among the best in the whole state (supposedly), and they were finally nudged into receptiveness by my very squeaky wheel routine (don't ask), and agreed to take it back, and even bent the "rules" by agreeing to credit my ATT account for the aforementioned Apple Care agreement ($69). I will be taking it back next week, as soon as I receive my new ebay purchase of a 3GS. Not too unhappy, since I sold my 3G 8gb on ebay last week for $220, and bought the 3GS 16gb (white even) today for $260, so not a bad tradeoff, since I can readily sell it once the ip4 "new and improved - cough, cough" version comes out - who knows when, so I will keep my original contract, which ends in Sep, and see how it all transpires.

Only trouble is, who will reimburse me for over 10% loss in my Apple stock this past week.
post #368 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

4) I myself wrote in this very thread as well as linked to Apple's site in this very thread of Apple's refund policy showing no risk for those who wish to return a faulty item and get a full refund over a replacement.

No argument there, the only catch being Apple has yet to admit there is a fault. If they would do that, this thread would be about 20 posts long instead of 10 pages and growing.
post #369 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) There is at least one testimonial written this very thread that an iPhone 4 was taken back and all fees were refunded and the newly signed contract was dissolved.

2) There are many posters who claim they've been told by Apple Store employees written in this very thread that you have 30 days to use the device risk free because the box has to be opened to activate the account.

3) The return policy for every Apple Store product, sans the iPhone, is 14 days. The return policy for the iPhone is 30 days. That isn't only written in this thread, but also linked to in this thread to it being written on Apple's site.

4) I myself wrote in this very thread as well as linked to Apple's site in this very thread of Apple's refund policy showing no risk for those who wish to return a faulty item and get a full refund over a replacement.

I understand everything you're saying. My point is only that Apple can always point to it's written policy and say F-you we're taking the restocking fee,
post #370 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

ROTFLMAO. So the only people complaining are people who have bought the phone -- EXCEPT for people like you who haven't bought it but are still complaining. You couldn't have contradicted yourself more fully if you had tried.

I never implied or meant to imply that ONLY people who have purchased the phone were complaining. I was just stating that there are owners that ARE complaining, and they never purchased the phone intending to bash it.

Anyways, I was genuinely excited to upgrade my 3GS to the iPhone 4. But the reception problems are a major issue that are keeping me from doing so.

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post #371 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


While it sounds like they didn't explain the reasoning very well, they were right to send him to an AT&T store for a refund (since this wasn't a warranty issue).

Apple sells the iPhone to their partners and they sell to consumers, making the sale itself the responsibility of the partner. There are legal issues here with balancing the books and whatnot. If you bought it at Best Buy which activated the iPhone 4 for AT&T where you signed the contract, you'd have to go to Best Buy at that point, not AT&T or Apple for any issue with sale.

I hear you, and understand the perspective,

But the Apple store is different than other resellers of the iPhone. In the eyes of the customer, they are not a reseller, they are Apple!

If intelligent minds at Apple and AT & T (in the US) can devise effective and legal ways to sell each other's products and services... they should be able to devise effective and legal ways to unsell these same products and services.

I can see a potential problem where the customer wants to exchange a supply-constrained product and the seller doesn't have sufficient exchange inventory... but, set that aside for now.

This particular customer was looking for a return/refund, and I assume he had the proper paper work to support the purchase transaction. Apple should be able to take the return product, capture the support documentation and issue a refund on the spot,

Apple & AT & T have accountants and lawyers that can establish procedures to handle the details, after the fact of the return/refund.

Apple does this all the time with it's resellers products binging delivered for resale pass returned products in transit!

The ironic part of it... If the Apple Store had issued an on-the-spot refund, there is a good possibility that the customer would have spent the refund (or even more) while he was in the store... the customer has money to spend, is in a positive frame of mind... that, sir is a qualified customer! From the Apple store POV it is the old bird-in-hand sales technique.

Apple, and the Apple Stores pride themselves in providing the best customer experience.

Part of any sale is an implied potential return/refund. This is a major part of the sales experience, and should be planned for, and treated as such.

Sorry, but I am hard-headed and don't see any way to compromise this!

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post #372 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

I understand everything you're saying. My point is only that Apple can always point to it's written policy and say F-you we're taking the restocking fee,

That's the point, they can't. There are laws to protect consumers, if you choose not to use those laws to protect your interests then I don't see how you can blame someone else for your carelessness or apathy.

The bottom line is: THEY WILL REFUND ALL YOUR MONEY IF YOUR DEVICE IS FAULTY.
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post #373 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

I hear you, and understand the perspective,

But the Apple store is different than other resellers of the iPhone. In the eyes of the customer, they are not a reseller, they are Apple!

If intelligent minds at Apple and AT & T (in the US) can devise effective and legal ways to sell each other's products and services... they should be able to devise effective and legal ways to unsell these same products and services.

[...]

Sorry, but I am hard-headed and don't see any way to compromise this!

.

This really is out of Apple's hands unless the manager willingly wants to take back a product they didn't sell. By they, I mean the retail aspect of Apple, not wholesale, to a consumer.

I think above and beyond in this situation would be to have numbers and addresses of the local retail partners (not just AT&T) so that a customer can feel as if they were competently routed to the right place for a refund.

Remember, we're talking about a replacement or a repair, we're talking about a sale of a device from a completely different vendor. If I bought a Mac at Amazon should I be able to bring my receipt to an Apple Store and have them refund me? The only difference here is that Apple is a wholesaler and a retailer, but that doesn't change the way business is done, they are still separate, and Apple is not responsible for the retail side of business from their wholesale customers. I'm not sure they could legally do it if they wanted to.
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post #374 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

I understand everything you're saying. My point is only that Apple can always point to it's written policy and say F-you we're taking the restocking fee,

No, you don't understand the purpose of "policy"... especially "written policy".

It is a way to boil-down many complex day-to-day decisions into codified rules, so that such decisions can be handled by front-line employees without the need to send each up the chain of command for higher-level approval-- it expedites "doing business".

But, like rules are made to be broken, policy is made to be overridden.

Done properly, a good policy will satisfy the bulk (let's say 90%) of the decisions quickly and efficiently to the satisfaction of the customer and the company, alike!

Then, when an unusual situation arises, that requires policy override, it is easily escalated to a higher-level where it can be resolved with the attention it deserves.

Any company who writes policy that is unfair to the customer (and will not adjust as necessary), will soon have no need for that policy-- as they will have no customers!.

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post #375 of 413
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Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

This really is out of Apple's hands unless the manager willingly wants to take back a product they didn't sell. By they, I mean the retail aspect of Apple, not wholesale, to a consumer.

I think above and beyond in this situation would be to have numbers and addresses of the local retail partners (not just AT&T) so that a customer can feel as if they were competently routed to the right place for a refund.

Remember, we're talking about a replacement or a repair, we're talking about a sale of a device from a completely different vendor. If I bought a Mac at Amazon should I be able to bring my receipt to an Apple Store and have them refund me? The only difference here is that Apple is a wholesaler and a retailer, but that doesn't change the way business is done, they are still separate, and Apple is not responsible for the retail side of business from their wholesale customers. I'm not sure they could legally do it if they wanted to.

Well, I chose not to address the Amazon, BestBuy, Radio Shack cases as they may require different handling,

I simplified to AT & T selling Apple iPhones and Apple selling AT&T services. There are 2 specific vendors and 2 specific components of the sale.

I also set aside replacements in a supply-constrained environment.

So, what it boils down to is this: for a sale to be consummated, you need to buy product a and service b. In my simplified world there are 2 vendors that sell both. Why can't each vendor unsell both.

Take a hypothetical situation; Say the customer lives in Palo Alto, but couldn't get a phone in Silicon Valley because of demand, He calls around and convinces the AT & T store in Monterey to hold an iPhone for him (gives his credit card info). He then drives down (100 miles) and gets his iP4.

After discovering the problem he decides the best solution for him is a return/refund.

He goes into the local PA Apple store... we didn't sell it you need to return it to AT & T. Does that mean AT & T Palo Alto (5 mile round trip) or AT & T Monterey (200 mile round trip).

If he has to take the 200 mile round trip that would be stupid, and he would have the right to be pissed... After all, were talking about computerized sales of communication devices. Why should the customer need to travel 200 miles to resolve this? He shouldn't!

I maintain that the customer shouldn't need to travel the 5 miles to the nearest AT & T store.

There are 2 vendors that could have made this sale AT & T and Apple. The customer is in the store of one of those vendors-- why can't they reverse the sale (of product a and service b) for the convenience of the customer?

The iP4 will go back to Apple, the contract and fees will be refunded to AT & T-- any special considerations (restocking/refurbishing, subsidy adjustments are worked out contractually or by mutually accepted procedures). This ain't rocket science and it is done all the time with businesses integrating sales of products and services of multiple suppliers.

Apple is one of the top manufacturers of "smart: phones, and AT & T is one of the top suppliers of "smart" phone services. The fact that they can't/won't develop a "smart" procedure for handling customer returns reflects poorly on both!


/sermon

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post #376 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That's the point, they can't. There are laws to protect consumers, if you choose not to use those laws to protect your interests then I don't see how you can blame someone else for your carelessness or apathy.

The bottom line is: THEY WILL REFUND ALL YOUR MONEY IF YOUR DEVICE IS FAULTY.

Exactly. The problem is who defines what faulty is. The consumer says when he holds his phone normally and the reception goes to pot the item is faulty. Apple disagrees and says there is no issue, buy a case. The way these disagreements get resolved is in court when one party sues. That's how the laws are used and enforced in civil matters like this. That's exactly what some people have done. That's what this thread is discussing. So you're happy.
post #377 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

No, you don't understand the purpose of "policy"... especially "written policy".

It is a way to boil-down many complex day-to-day decisions into codified rules, so that such decisions can be handled by front-line employees without the need to send each up the chain of command for higher-level approval-- it expedites "doing business".

But, like rules are made to be broken, policy is made to be overridden.

Done properly, a good policy will satisfy the bulk (let's say 90%) of the decisions quickly and efficiently to the satisfaction of the customer and the company, alike!

Then, when an unusual situation arises, that requires policy override, it is easily escalated to a higher-level where it can be resolved with the attention it deserves.

Any company who writes policy that is unfair to the customer (and will not adjust as necessary), will soon have no need for that policy-- as they will have no customers!.

.

Perhaps it is you who does not understand. Written policy is written to cover the company's ass. If they had it printed before you bought your item, you're at their mercy to change it. The company can choose to go beyond their written policies, but not less than them. In this case, Apple is very likely to stick with their policy. If we see a slew of returns we'll find out.

The issue here is whether Apple intends to satisfy it's customers. So far all indications are an emphatic NO!!
post #378 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

... Only trouble is, who will reimburse me for over 10% loss in my Apple stock this past week.

If you liked it at $270, you'll love it at $250
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post #379 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

Perhaps it is you who does not understand. Written policy is written to cover the company's ass. If they had it printed before you bought your item, you're at their mercy to change it. The company can choose to go beyond their written policies, but not less than them. In this case, Apple is very likely to stick with their policy. If we see a slew of returns we'll find out.

The issue here is whether Apple intends to satisfy it's customers. So far all indications are an emphatic NO!!

Have you ever set policy for a corporation?

I have!


Apple's history indicates that they will satisfy their customers-- What's yours?

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post #380 of 413
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Originally Posted by john galt View Post

If you liked it at $270, you'll love it at $250

It's buyin' time again!

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post #381 of 413
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Originally Posted by DarenDino View Post

Not sure how a software patch will resolve the problem, seems it is a hardware, or physical part of the phone, which reacts when 'touched', bit like touching an indoor aerial on your TV makes the picture go snowy.

It sound like a material problem, conductive.

Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
post #382 of 413
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Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?

What's the difference? The call is still being dropped.

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post #383 of 413
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Originally Posted by Thefinaleofseem View Post

You're not going to die and possibly get other people killed when your iPhone drops a call.

Unless your call is matter of life and death
post #384 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post

Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?

I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage. This happens no matter how many seconds it takes for the signal bars to register a downward revision in in strength. This is highly repeatable, and makes me think the bars are, indeed, a time-related moving average of signal strength. Stopping webpage downloads immediately indicates an immediate shutting down of the incoming signal when I bridge the gap with my finger or hand. I have repeated this on many occasions, and today demonstrated it merely one block from the ATT store here in Palo Alto, where the bars registered 5 bars prior to touching the antenna. In the store, I could not elicit this response, leading me to believe that you must have extraordinary cellphone tower strength (and the magical ATT elixer) to keep this from happening.
post #385 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage. This happens no matter how many seconds it takes for the signal bars to register a downward revision in in strength. This is highly repeatable, and makes me think the bars are, indeed, a time-related moving average of signal strength. Stopping webpage downloads immediately indicates an immediate shutting down of the incoming signal when I bridge the gap with my finger or hand. I have repeated this on many occasions, and today demonstrated it merely one block from the ATT store here in Palo Alto, where the bars registered 5 bars prior to touching the antenna. In the store, I could not elicit this response, leading me to believe that you must have extraordinary cellphone tower strength (and the magical ATT elixer) to keep this from happening.

That is indeed what it is. If it didn't do that it would be bouncing all over the place.

I hear it polls for signal strength about every 10 seconds. Since you have a phone with this issue you should be able to time it.

Because it completely and instantly stops a download it makes me think this could an issue with the TriQuint UMTS chip simply freaking out from the change in the antenna info, not that the signal has actually attenuated completely the instant you touch it. Does this happen on EDGE, which uses a different chip?
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post #386 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Underhill View Post

It's worth mentioning that prior to iPhone 4 antenna hysteria there have been many posts on dropped calls for both of your phones, as well as Nokia's, Blackberries etc.... Phones do drop calls. It's part of life.

As a 3G and iPhone 4 owner i'm more than satisfied. Connectivity ebbs and flows depending where i am but i'd say, hand on heart, my iP4 is better at connecting, or should i say more sensitive in area's where signal is poor. Meaning i can browse the internet on my iPhone 4 where i can't on my 3G. I think it's this sensitivity on the iP4 antenna which is part of the issue. So it's easier to get the iP4 to lose connection if you want to force it to, although in my experience i haven't had an issue holding the phone naturally.

So i'd say if you've had no real issues with connectivity with your 3G and 3GS then i'd doubt very much you'll have an issue with an iP4. It's actually better at connecting to poorer networks than either of those two phones. And that's my honest opinion based on humble experience.

By the way the camera, screen resolution, snappiness and video camera will impress you no end.

Agreed. I love the iPhone 4 and it does get better reception than any previous phone I have had with any carrier. Maybe if people removed their heads from their butts, they wouldn't have a reception problem. I am guessing most people commenting don't even own the iPhone 4 so they have no real experience with the phone.
post #387 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaune View Post

That's. What I was about to say... It's been 1 freaking week. Those attorneys should be charged with malpractice!!!

Return the dam phone if you don't think it works.

Sure sure apple stock has gone up but as a creative, we are the ones suffering. Their usedd to be a time when the iMac was considered a toy or for the front desk of the asstitants ad, music, feature film studio. Now apple could care less about logic a decent headless non server mac pro like in the G5/4 days but alas, Apple has fallen prey to the consumer and the ProSumers are up a creak as the MacBooks, iMacs and MacBook pro to 15", are all non upgradable.

Terrible. Someday someone with a clue will be at the helm and there will be the consumer tv iPhone division and pro to semi pro division. Even Avid pro tools saw this coming and as a result bought m-audio but it seems apple could care less about games on the computer or those that stood by them pre-iPhone years.
post #388 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by themouse View Post

"don't hold it that way" was a line in a private email to one person. He posted it and it exploded over the internet. There was nothing official about it.

Exactly ... we've all laughed about Steve's famously terse e-mails before, but now everyone is offended by this one. Also, Steve never used the word "wrong," which seems to be what's really triggering people.

As for their "silence" or "denial" of the issue ... it has been one week. I expect them to deal with this quickly, but everyone seems to expect an instantaneous reaction and that's just not realistic for a multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation!
post #389 of 413
12 plantifs. What about the other 4 million? It should be AT&T and their over priced service too.
post #390 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarenDino View Post

Not sure how a software patch will resolve the problem, seems it is a hardware, or physical part of the phone, which reacts when 'touched', bit like touching an indoor aerial on your TV makes the picture go snowy.

It sound like a material problem, conductive.

Maybe the handset will have to be trashed and remade with alternative materials. The iPhone 4 is this year's puck mouse !

This is how this is potentially fixable in software (speculated, but not confirmed to be using them, but I would bet my bottom dollar that they are).

http://electronicdesign.com/article/...tiple-wir.aspx
post #391 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage.


"Doctor, it hurts when I do this:"

"Then don't do that".




Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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"I'm way over my head when it comes to technical issues like this"
Gatorguy 5/31/13
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post #392 of 413
Okay, gotta update this since I posted all over the thread.

Got my iPhone 4 yesterday. Activating it was a breeze. Immediately tested and replicated the reception/bar problem. Put the iPhone is a case (I always use one) and the problem went poof. No problem with my proximity sensor either. Battery life so far has been great. Off charge for almost 18 hours, with normal use and battery is at 75%.

Overall, exceptionally happy.
post #393 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

12 plantifs. What about the other 4 million? It should be AT&T and their over priced service too.

TWELVE plaintiffs??? That's all they've got? Ambulance-chasers, indeed!

I'd say, for that class-action status to be granted, they'd need (for example) 1% of purchasors (speculating: not really 'my' point of law) to join the action...which means they need to recruit at least another 14,988 of Mama's precious darlings before this gets to be more than a very public hissy-fit.
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If yer gonna bother with thinking different, swing for the fences.
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post #394 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.

"Touching" doesn't typically mean "deliberately poking with a finger tip", as one might do to test or demonstrate this problem. The only "touching" necessary is to have the bottom left corner of the phone gently resting against the palm of your hand, an entirely natural result of a very natural way of holding the phone in your left hand -- as depicted in many Apple promotional pictures for the phone.

I like the iPhone 4 enough that I'm still going to keep mine. I'm not one of the people screaming loudly about this issue since I can work around the problem and so much else about the phone is great. But the antenna issue really is a stupid engineering flaw, and telling people they're "holding it wrong" is a really lame excuse.

I'm not a fan of phone cases or rubber bumpers, especially ridiculously overpriced rubber bumpers, so I'll either make due either holding the phone in an awkward way or not worrying too much about 3G reception when I'm holding it more naturally.

Even if I was inclined to return the iPhone 4, I already sold my old 32GB 3GS on eBay, so unless I bought another used 3GS, all I could swap my iPhone 4 for would be an 8GB 3GS. I don't want buy used, settle for only 8GB, or switch to an entirely different brand of phone just to protest an admittedly annoying flaw. Even if I could get a new 32GB 3GS as an exchange, I'd hate giving up the improved screen and camera of the iPhone 4.
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Peter came out and gave us medals
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #395 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.

Abnormal in the sense of being a perfectly natural way to hold the phone. Anyone that says 1) they only ever hold their phone one way and/or 2) they never hold the phone in the new 'wrong' way is lying or confused.

This isn't a major problem in my mind. But some people make the most absurd arguments to try and rationalize the problem away. Saying that there is a wrong way to hold a phone is bad enough, but saying the 'wrong' way is abnormal is just stupid.

If Apple had said "If you experience this problem, change your grasp to one using just your thumb and index finger, each exactly one inch from the top of the phone and with no contact from any other part of your hand. Also avoid allowing the phone to touch your ear" these same people would say "Well, of course! Any other way is abnormal."

Pathetic, really.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #396 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

"Touching" doesn't typically mean "deliberately poking with a finger tip", as one might do to test or demonstrate this problem. The only "touching" necessary is to have the bottom left corner of the phone gently resting against the palm of your hand, an entirely natural result of a very natural way of holding the phone in your left hand -- as depicted in many Apple promotional pictures for the phone.

I like the iPhone 4 enough that I'm still going to keep mine. I'm not one of the people screaming loudly about this issue since I can work around the problem and so much else about the phone is great. But the antenna issue really is a stupid engineering flaw, and telling people they're "holding it wrong" is a really lame excuse.

I'm not a fan of phone cases or rubber bumpers, especially ridiculously overpriced rubber bumpers, so I'll either make due either holding the phone in an awkward way or not worrying too much about 3G reception when I'm holding it more naturally.

Even if I was inclined to return the iPhone 4, I already sold my old 32GB 3GS on eBay, so unless I bought another used 3GS, all I could swap my iPhone 4 for would be an 8GB 3GS. I don't want buy used, settle for only 8GB, or switch to an entirely different brand of phone just to protest an admittedly annoying flaw. Even if I could get a new 32GB 3GS as an exchange, I'd hate giving up the improved screen and camera of the iPhone 4.

very well said.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
Reply
post #397 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline View Post

"Touching" doesn't typically mean "deliberately poking with a finger tip", as one might do to test or demonstrate this problem. The only "touching" necessary is to have the bottom left corner of the phone gently resting against the palm of your hand, an entirely natural result of a very natural way of holding the phone in your left hand -- as depicted in many Apple promotional pictures for the phone.

I like the iPhone 4 enough that I'm still going to keep mine. I'm not one of the people screaming loudly about this issue since I can work around the problem and so much else about the phone is great. But the antenna issue really is a stupid engineering flaw, and telling people they're "holding it wrong" is a really lame excuse.

I'm not a fan of phone cases or rubber bumpers, especially ridiculously overpriced rubber bumpers, so I'll either make due either holding the phone in an awkward way or not worrying too much about 3G reception when I'm holding it more naturally.

Even if I was inclined to return the iPhone 4, I already sold my old 32GB 3GS on eBay, so unless I bought another used 3GS, all I could swap my iPhone 4 for would be an 8GB 3GS. I don't want buy used, settle for only 8GB, or switch to an entirely different brand of phone just to protest an admittedly annoying flaw. Even if I could get a new 32GB 3GS as an exchange, I'd hate giving up the improved screen and camera of the iPhone 4.

It is definitely a problem holding it normally. Even when I held it out in front of me to use the screen, apps and internet, it lost all signal.

It is a great phone, but it definitely is not usable sans a case. That to me is a defective product. Apple's refusal to give away bumpers is even more gross IMO.
post #398 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

It is definitely a problem holding it normally. Even when I held it out in front of me to use the screen, apps and internet, it lost all signal.

It is a great phone, but it definitely is not usable sans a case. That to me is a defective product. Apple's refusal to give away bumpers is even more gross IMO.

I think most people agree that Apple should give away bumpers. I wonder what the other cover makers would feel about that? - would they sue? If Apple gave away a really cheap cover that just did the job, how would consumers feel about that? let alone what the legal situation would be.

I think Apple would be forced to give a $30 voucher/discount which is effectively a $30 loss on each phone.

Something needs to be done, but what?
post #399 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic8Ball View Post

I think most people agree that Apple should give away bumpers. I wonder what the other cover makers would feel about that? - would they sue? If Apple gave away a really cheap cover that just did the job, how would consumers feel about that? let alone what the legal situation would be.

I think Apple would be forced to give a $30 voucher/discount which is effectively a $30 loss on each phone.

Something needs to be done, but what?

Bumpers barely protect the phone. The fact that Apples only case ever for an iPhone covers only the part that causes the issue, is the most telling that they knew about the issue.

I use a full case for protection on my phone. I don't think the case makers would suffer too much. Not that they'd have any grounds to sue anyway.
post #400 of 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain J View Post

Bumpers barely protect the phone. The fact that Apples only case ever for an iPhone covers only the part that causes the issue, is the most telling that they knew about the issue.

I use a full case for protection on my phone. I don't think the case makers would suffer too much. Not that they'd have any grounds to sue anyway.

If you're right, it's hard to see how Apple can come out of this with it's reputation intact. In fact I'd go as far as to say - it doesn't matter if they're innocent or not right now - they're reputation is going to take a beating.
Apple have always been single minded focusing only on their vision. But they've seemingly never screwed their customers before.

With Android devices set to take over world (in volume at least)Apple are really going to need a great reputation and an outstanding product to hold onto what will increasingly become a niche product. But then Audi cars are niche products too, as are Bang and Olufsen ;-)
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