Apple sued over iPhone 4 reception issues - Page 2

Thanks.

As soon as they release a patch to "fix" the signal strength "bars" as they did 2 years ago with the 3G all will be fine. It's the appearance of few or no "bars" that has people crazy. Last night I had seemingly no signal at my home where I have always had full strength. My wife's 3G had all 5 bars. I called her and she called me. Perfect reception. I have tried for 3 days now to recreate the situation that people are crazy about and cannot do it.

I had my first "cellular" phone during the initial Chicago test market in 1986 and have used every type of phone and carrier since then. There is absolutely no difference in the reception between my 3G and my new iPhone 4.

Of course you could hold the puck mouse when using it, and it would still work.

The reason this issue isn't apparent on all phones is because it only affects phones that are receiving a moderate-to-weak signal in the first place. Testing shows that covering the antenna gap reduces the signal by over 20db (a 20db loss means you're only getting 1/100th of the signal). If you have a moderate-to-strong signal to start with then a 20db loss means you still have a sufficient signal to maintain a connection. If you're like me, where at home I have 2-4 bars of signal, touching the gap results in a total loss of data and voice, and eventually "No Service". I've had 6 previous iPhones (3 3Gs and 3 3GSs) and I never had a problem. Now, holding the phone the way I naturally do (and my wife & daughter), I cannot use any of the 3 iPhone 4s in this house. Unless of course I hold it in a way where my fingers & hand do not touch the lower left corner -- an awkward way for sure. Just look at how THESE people are holding the phone, Mr. Jobs included:
http://iphonehold.tumblr.com/
If you hold the phone like this in MY house you lose your cellular connection, but NONE of my previous iPhones did. Does anyone really think this is NOT a problem?

Edit: Just noticed that in all the pictures in that link, not one is showing a screen where the signal bars are present. Wonder if that was a conscious decision?

Edit2: OK, so here's a couple of pics that DO show the bars (my iPhone): http://gallery.me.com/wingsy#100071

I think Steve has more decision power within Apple than you realize.

In order for Apple to keep him and have him be happy to be there, he gets a huge amount of control. And, if he advises the board on a certain course of action, such as "it's not an issue, we just need to educate users on how to use the phone correctly", then they will likely let him make the call...for now. Of course if this issue gets bigger, then they may have to reevaluate the plan.

Stay tuned~

I'm against lawsuits too, and would almost certainly never join a class action suit. But seriously, how is it that a company as successful as Apple can sell a product so utterly dysfunctional. It's called an iPhone - it should work as a phone!

I think that's part of the problem, but when the phone drops calls or will not make calls, then there is a bigger problem than just however many bars are showing on the screen.

About a dozen people are killed each year in the US by tipping vending machines over on top themselves. A sticker that warns of this doesn't really seem unwarranted. Consider it a public service announcement.

I doubt the return fee. I've returned a Shuffle that was won at a Christmas party with acopy of the receipt from Apple on line listing 10 or so shuffles and an iTouch I bought that would no work on my wi-fi but worked okay in the store. No restocking fee.

During that week the company's chairman and CEO has denied in writing that there is a problem, and the company has sent written instructions to its store employees describing specifically how they should deny there is a problem when faced with customer complaints.

What exactly do you imagine would change, and how many weeks would you give it?

:-) Thanks for watching out for Apple!

If really want an iPhone that works Apple is still selling the 3Gs. Why not pick up one of those as an exchange? It is even cheaper.

Notice the lawsuit says "design AND manufacturing defects." I received my iPhone4 yesterday and I cannot make the problem happen. I went to a known poor signal location and managed to make 1 more bar disappear before it bounced back to 4 bars.

Another friend just got his i4...again no problem. A 3rd friend got his on release day and he can go from 5 bars to no signal in < minute.

I'm really starting to think this is/was a manufacturing defect especially prevalent in the 1st/2nd batch of phones. The biggest issue here is how Apple is dealing with it. Instead of coming out and saying they released a bad batch they are trying to wait it out presumably to avoid replacing the entire 1st batch.

Apple surely has an issue on their hands with this one. I loose, consistently, 2 bars of service when I touch the lower left corner of the phone where the antennas join. If I lick my finger (clammy hand simulation) then it kicks me off the network completely. I have tested this over and over and over and it produces the same results every time. There is definitely an issue with "holding it wrong." Wrong answer Steve. As much as I admire the guy, this is a failed design.

Having said that, my iPhone 3G in the very same environment, exactly the same place at my desk is not even getting a signal. In reading elsewhere I am finding that the iPhone 4 has exception signal quality. Even better than most phones and certainly better than the older iPhones. But if you hold the phone "wrong" then you loose about 60% of those gains.

So, they took three steps forward in their signal design and left two steps back if you hold it wrong. What they should have done, if they are so insistent on having the antenna on the outside, was disguise these gains and losses in the way the bars are presented.

If I hold the death grip with some rubber then I still retain excellent signal. It is your skin that is conductive between the two antennas. This is a real damn shame for Apple because they consistently try so hard to offer the best to the consumer (except for their Bluetooth Headset. Someone should be shot for the reception on that thing). This is going to turn into one BIG bag of hurt for them. I guarantee it.

I look forward to the giant sticker on the iPhone 4 noting that left-handed people are probably under the influence of witchcraft and should be beat into being right-handed or burned at the stake.

Kyle76,

You are right on the mark.

90% of the people on this forum are simply choosing to ignore the "dropped call" part of it. Either they all bought their cases on day 1 or they are awfully lucky. Personally I hate cases (all the effort Jonathan Ive put in with his beautiful, strong materials .., remember? :-) ) and I certainly don't want to pay for one just because my $299 gadget is messed up.

Isn't that page of written instructions hearsay also?

I did exchange my first iPhone 4, and the replacement I received from Apple has the same problem. It goes from 5 bars to "No Service" in about 10 seconds when I hold it naturally in my left hand. I live 300 miles from the nearest Apple Store, so this all had to be done via FedEx.

So tell me, how many times do you expect me to do this? And why, exactly, do you and your fellow apologists keep insisting that the onus for this situation should fall on the consumer, and not the manufacturer of an obviously defective device? I've been buying Apple products since 1984, and this is the most easily reproducible bug I've ever encountered.

If Steve Jobs first reaction would have been something like: "We're checking into this," or: "Our engineers will have a fix soon," instead of: "You're all morons who don't now how to hold a phone," very few of us would have gone ballistic.

Because people are entitled to tens or hundreds of thousands because they are greedy at worst (actually overall happy with the phone, but just money-grubbing asses), or slightly inconvenienced at first (out maybe a few hundred for breaking a contract with another carrier).

And Apple won't assess the restocking fee for a defective return.



And this isn't a gripe about people suing Apple.
It is a gripe about greed and broken elements of our legal system.
Suing for a recall of a genuinely defective product would be another matter.

First of all, I don't really understand why someone has to own a product to be able to voice a negative opinion on it.

That being said, I don't really think this lawsuit has any leg to stand on. It's not illegal to make a product that isn't perfect. The reception issue is clearly a flaw in the product design, and if apple didn't promote that covering the bottom left corner lowers your reception... well, so what? You market your products STRENGTHS, not its flaws. It's your competitors' prerogative to attack its flaws.

This is not a SAFETY issue (which would warrant a lawsuit). It's a quality issue. It would be like suing Ford because the range on it's keyless entry remote for the new Mustang wasn't as good as the range for the remote on your old Altima.

Un-frigging-believable. Not really. It's the age of entitlements. There are options besides suing Apple. The iP4 has been in use for 10 days and people are going to their lawyers? It will be interesting to watch this play out. In my experience as a consumer I don't sue the manufacturer when the product I buy doesn't work as advertised. I either return it or I don't buy another one. Give me a break about losing a few bucks because of the 10% restock fee. Some people are just PIAs and there's no getting around them. That's the price Apple pays to stay in business. I never had an opinion about Steve Jobs before all this iPhone hysteria started. I am beginning to like this guy.

I do know that it has not been independently verified. Plus it could be argued that a one to one email from Jobs doesn't necessarily constitute an official announcement. Steve's emails are vague enough that you could easily argue that they are being taken out of context. Not a whole lot of meat with them.

ETA: I don't think this case has much standing since all the phones are well in their return period. The only thing preventing returns would be inventory limits (something that is understandable in the first week). Apple also has a big out here - they never made any guarantees thats the iPhone would never drop calls. With only s few people in this suit, a judge is going to want to know why they haven't gotten replacements or returns. Apple also has a defense saying that the phones could have been defective...

just wanted to clarify that there is no restocking fee when returing an iPhone. You have 30 days to deciide if you want to keep the phone and the contract. THERE IS NO RESTOCKING FEE on iPhones.

Apple employee

If everyone who bought an iPhone 4 who are having issues with it were to return it this would have a far greater impact on Apple than some money grabbing lawsuit.

That depends entirely on where you bought it. If you bought the phone through Apple or AT&T then I believe they're not charging a restocking fee. But if you bought it from Best Buy or Radio Shack then they will charge you a restocking fee. IIRC, it's 10% at Best Buy and %15 at Radio Shack.

At the moment perhaps it is, though it may be worth noting that the site that posted it has not been compelled to post a retraction.

Ultimately its authenticity will be determined by the courts.

Lawsuit? Really? By the time this thing would get to court, the iPhone 4 will be a distant memory. And even if they win, what will they get? Millions for the lawyers and the consumer gets a coupon for $20 off purchase of an iPhone 9...

I believe if you buy an iPhone from Best Buy or Radio Shack they will charge a restocking fee if you return it.

The Nexus One has the same problem...

http://blog.keithbradnam.com/signal-...ne-might-be-as

The problem is that the majority of people on this board complaining don't even own iPhones.


Most importantly, identify which issue they're reproducing. IMHO, simply showing a signal drop is irrelevant. Apple has stated - and a lot of people have confirmed - that lots of phones show a signal drop but never drop calls. I can easily show a signal drop, but I've never dropped a call. Furthermore, dropped calls is only an issue if the phone drops more calls than other phones in the same conditions - which is why data is needed, not just "waaaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem".


Actually, I haven't seen any evidence that very many people exhibit dropped calls. There are a lot of people who see the number of bars drop, but that's a cosmetic issue. There are relatively few reports of dropped calls.

Anand's report confirms my own experience - that the iPhone 4 actually has better reception than previous versions.


More like the car won't start if you're standing on your head with one hand in the glove compartment and the other in the trunk. It's actually fairly difficult to get your hand into position where the effect is observed while making a phone call.


If Apple can improve it with a software upgrade, they will. Do you have NO knowledge of Apple's history? They regularly improve these little problems with software patches when they are able.

You admit that it's simply a matter of holding the phone slightly differently. Considering how awkward it is to hold the phone cupped in your left hand while making a call, that's not a huge sacrifice.


The person you're responding to said that only people who have an iPhone - and therefore direct knowledge of the issue - should be responding. That's a fairly reasonable position. I'm getting tired of the endless stream of Apple-haters who launch into endless attacks on Apple over issues that don't affect them and never will.

I didn't read the full filing, did the plaintiffs ask the court to order Apple to preserve Steve Jobs's email on the sjobs@apple.com account?

No, they don't. ALL cell phones can suffer from signal attenuation when held in a certain way. All iPhone models have this, too. The other -- more serious -- problem with the iPhone 4 is that the two antenna are on the OUTSIDE of the phone and when the phone is held in such a way that conductive skin connects these two antenna, then signal is lost and calls can be dropped. There are two different issues here.

May be you are right! But 90% of the people are blissful in thier $29 bumpers or cases. So I doubt if Apple will feel the pinch financially. For them, saving the face, saving the ego and PR will be equally important.

Can you confirm that there is no restocking fee if you buy an iPhone from places like Best Buy or Radio Shack and try to return them?

True, one can take them different ways depending on what the definition of "is" is.

But that his emails are being used by the company's opposition in this case only further suggests a "problem discussion" between the Board and the CEO, if it hasn't happened already.

First of all it was last month, not earlier this month, since its the 1st July.

I love my iPhone4 but I've made several test calls and tested several scenarios. Whenever I have a 3G signal and I touch the bottom left corner, the 3G signal disappears and goes down to standard GPRS (not edge) or no data at all. So when holding the phone in a way that all right handed people would (not even most), to do something other than make calls, like texting or browsing the web, the signal goes down to crawling internet speed (GPRS) or often no data at all, unless I have wifi.

If I'm on a call on 3G and I touch the bottom left corner, the 3G signal dies and the call drops. This has happened several times accidentally. Even though Im aware there is a problem, like most people, when your on a call your mind is concentrating on the conversation, not how your holding the phone. Not to mention if you hold the phone in any other way than what feels natural, your more likely to drop it.. and smashed glass galore.

If I'm already on GPRS or Edge, I have no problems at all, the signal does drop's by a few bars, but I have no dropped calls.

This might suggest dropped calls can kinda be fixed with a software update, that is if they can update the software so that it doesn't drop a call when going from 3G to 2G Normal calls. Of course that doesn't solve the issue entirely since i'd still be loosing the faster internet, but its a lot less problematic.

I understand that most phones have a drop in signal if held in a certain way. But no other phone as far as I'm aware drops its call entirely and consistently when doing so, so its unfair for Apple to make this comparison.

I'm in the UK on O2. On launch day all the sales counters had bumpers (or equivalent) and everyone was asked it they wanted to buy one. This is my 4th iPhone and they have NEVER done that before. Apple has also never made a case for its iphone before, and mysteriously it only covers the antenna. These things suggest Apple knew about this before it started selling the phone and the 'Bumper' name appears to be somewhat of a decoy. Unfortunately they probably didn't find out until after mass production, after it had been announced or when it was too far down pre production to turn back.

The plus's of the new iPhone far outweigh the negatives for me, and until there is a fix I'll just turn off 3G, since I'm usually on Wifi anyway. I don't want to buy a case, as I don't see the point in owning something for its beauty, then covering it up in something horrid so you can never truly appreciate it.

This doesn't excuse Apples neglect. Best thing they can do is own up and fix the issue. I can't see them winning this legal case, even with their hot lawyers.

Which at that point it is no longer Apple's problem since those restocking fees are not set or determined by Apple. The retailer determines the restocking fee, not the product manufacturer.

Simply because if they haven't used the product, they don't know what the f$ck they're talking about.

What happens is that one person has a problem and then 50,000 Apple-haters endlessly bash Apple over this problem - that they never experienced and have no way of experiencing since most of them refuse to ever buy anything from Apple. This stirs up a feeding frenzy and agitates more people to spew FUD - and then the press jumps in. You end up with endless, mindless bashing based on a few anecdotal reports.

I prefer a civilized world based on data and facts.


Once the suit is filed, there's no need to specifically ask for something to be retained. Destroying evidence is a felony, by default.

Furthermore, in these Sarbox days, those documents would need to be retained, anyway.

I can barely make calls on mine, I've been holding phones the same way for the last 15 years. All of a sudden I'm doing something wrong?

I agree that its a total pain in the ass to return a phone. Maybe the UK is easier but restocking fees, waiting in line for useless att employees to tell me theres some loop hole as to why I can't return it on such day, contract hassles, etc. I don't have time for any of that.

If apple said from day one "Theres an issue, we're working on a fix" then cool, thats awesome. But to just be a dick and tell everyone their stupid is why the lawsuits are popping up. Especially when theres countless apple ads, steve himself and other apple employees all holding the phone the axact same way.

They need to say YES theres a problem, here's how we plan to fix it (coating the phone, free bumpers, software etc. ) or heres a PAINLESS way to return it for a different phone, complete refund or down grade to a 3GS that actually works.

For me I can't wait for a resolution so I gave apple more of my money for a stupid piece of plastic that wraps around the phone. but at least I can use the thing for phone calls now. It's fantastic at everything, I love it as the newest, fastest coolest gadget. But as a phone its terrible with out paying apple for a bumper case which is wrong. It's wrong for a company this big with this many loyal customers to just blow them off after they spent $300 on your product.

i read this and think the topic is dead
because
like ya know
duh
return the damn thing and move on

alas the morons and people who just love to chit chat
will keep this non issue alive
apple is such a planet wide force that the fringe nut jobs all come whenever apple misess a beat

skip
leave your basement and get out and play in the park with your kids or at least un hook and enjpy the nature around us . cause anyone dwelling in this topic needs to hit the refresh button
brucp included

peace dogs

peace

9

I'm not aware of any "problem discussion" between the board and the CEO. Can you show me where that has been confirmed? A private email doesn't say much of anything.


Sorry, I'm going to have to call you on this. You have to prove neglect and nobody has been able to do this. I doubt that can be done with a product being on the market for about a week. Cite please.