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"6 Months Until the Largest Tax Hikes in History" - Page 6

post #201 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I suppose that's better than needing walls to keep people in.




You truly do revel in your caricatures don't you? \




Yes, you can construct your Liberal Utopia and all will be well. What's interesting is that's not what liberals want. They don't want to let others be and do their own thing. They're not content unless everyone is living like you think they should live. Those of us who are advocates of freedom like to try and remind the "liberals" (or "progressives" as you sometimes laughingly like to call yourselves) that you can have an island of socialism and "Liberal Utopia" in a sea of liberty and freedom, but you cannot have an island of liberty and freedom in a sea of socialism. But whatever.

Quote:
What's interesting is that's not what liberals want. They don't want to let others be and do their own thing. They're not content unless everyone is living like you think they should live

Sorry but what you're discribing sounds very Republican to me.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #202 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Sorry but what you're discribing sounds very Republican to me.

Of course it does. And to a large extent it is. But your PPD blinds you to the fact that the Democrats and so-called "liberals" and "progressives" of this country want to do it just as much. Your just to fucking blind to see or or too prideful to admit it.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #203 of 683
The funny thing is that when it comes to actual results, there is little difference between modern Republicans and Democrats.

But they want us to keep bickering amongst ourselves. It keeps us distracted.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #204 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Of course it does. And to a large extent it is. But your PPD blinds you to the fact that the Democrats and so-called "liberals" and "progressives" of this country want to do it just as much. Your just to fucking blind to see or or too prideful to admit it.

I'm not in favor of letting others do their own thing when their own thing involves oppressing others.

Don't want to do drugs? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to get gay married? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to hear fuck on the radio? Change the channel. Don't suppress the language.

Don't want to buy alcohol on Sundays? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to hire a prostitute? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to let sick people get healthcare? Fuck you. You're a selfish asshole.

Don't want to provide the bare minimum necessities of food, shelter, and safety to the poorest citizens? Fuck you. You're a selfish asshole. You're certainly not a Christian.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #205 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I'm not in favor of letting others do their own thing when their own thing involves oppressing others.

Don't want to do drugs? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to get gay married? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to hear fuck on the radio? Change the channel. Don't suppress the language.

Don't want to buy alcohol on Sundays? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to hire a prostitute? Don't. Don't say others can't.

Don't want to let sick people get healthcare? Fuck you. You're a selfish asshole.

Don't want to provide the bare minimum necessities of food, shelter, and safety to the poorest citizens? Fuck you. You're a selfish asshole. You're certainly not a Christian.

Where do you draw the line? Or is that arbitrary?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #206 of 683
Reread the first sentence.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #207 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Don't want to let sick people get healthcare? Fuck you. You're a selfish asshole.

Don't want to provide the bare minimum necessities of food, shelter, and safety to the poorest citizens? Fuck you. You're a selfish asshole. You're certainly not a Christian.

You love your caricatures of the people you don't agree with, don't you? \

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #208 of 683
Did you learn a new word or something? You seem to be following me from thread to thread bandying it about. People against universal healthcare and a social safety net are just flat out selfish assholes and certainly not Christians. Eventually when you get down to the matter, the essence of the argument becomes "don't take my stuff" or "they don't deserve any stuff". That's the quintessence of selfishness. That's the anathema of Christianity.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #209 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Reread the first sentence.

Where do you draw the line?

Am I "oppressing" another by using an incandescent bulb in my desk lamp instead of a CFL?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #210 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Did you learn a new word or something?

No, it's just the perfect word to describe what you're spelling out about people you disagree with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

People against universal healthcare and a social safety net are just flat out selfish assholes and certainly not Christians.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Eventually when you get down to the matter, the essence of the argument becomes "don't take my stuff" or "they don't deserve any stuff".

Again, more insight in what's happening in your imagination about people you disagree with.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #211 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Where do you draw the line?

Am I "oppressing" another by using an incandescent bulb in my desk lamp instead of a CFL?

Let me guess, you want to use leaded gasoline and burn your garbage, too. You're a laugh a minute.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #212 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Did you learn a new word or something? You seem to be following me from thread to thread bandying it about. People against universal healthcare and a social safety net are just flat out selfish assholes and certainly not Christians. Eventually when you get down to the matter, the essence of the argument becomes "don't take my stuff" or "they don't deserve any stuff". That's the quintessence of selfishness. That's the anathema of Christianity.

I believe in serving others, in clothing the naked, in feeding the hungry, in helping and lifting up those less fortunate than myself. I don't think anyone here has said that those in such circumstances deserve to be in them and should not be helped.

I simply don't believe the government was ever meant to be a charitable organization, nor do I believe it knows how to spend my hard-earned money better than I do.

I donate over 10% of my income to charity of my own free will and choice. I know exactly what is done with that money and can see how it benefits others.

It ceases to be charity when my money is forcibly taken from me and given to another under penalty of imprisonment. That is forced redistribution of wealth, NOT charity.

Do you not see how this is infringing further upon my freedom to choose?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #213 of 683
Are there still sick who have no healthcare? Are there still poor who have no food or shelter? Charity isn't enough.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #214 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Let me guess, you want to use leaded gasoline and burn your garbage, too. You're a laugh a minute.

Okay, I get it. You don't want to paint yourself into a corner. That's cool.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #215 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Do you not see how this is infringing further upon my freedom to choose?

I don't think BR actually believes others should have the freedom to choose...well except in the limited set of cases he deems to be ok with him.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #216 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Are there still sick who have no healthcare? Are there still poor who have no food or shelter? Charity isn't enough.

Even the most socialist or communist countries still have poor, destitute, starving, and sick.

The government isn't enough, either.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #217 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Even the most socialist or communist countries still have poor, destitute, starving, and sick.

The government isn't enough, either.

Well, I can't say that we're doing any better with our greedy as fuck corporate nation. At some point we lost our way as a nation. We handed the reins to the corporations who care for nothing but the bottom line. We lost our humanity.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #218 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Of course it does. And to a large extent it is. But your PPD blinds you to the fact that the Democrats and so-called "liberals" and "progressives" of this country want to do it just as much. Your just to fucking blind to see or or too prideful to admit it.

So if that's true how is it that I never hear you say anything like that about the Republicans?

I mean how do you think they got the moniker of " The party of No "?

The question you really need to answer is trhe first one however.
Just asking.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #219 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Are there still sick who have no healthcare? Are there still poor who have no food or shelter? Charity isn't enough.

Health Care is not a right!
Food is not a right!
Shelter is not a right!
Charity is not a right!

When the hell are you lazy liberals going to get off your ass and earn something rather than demanding governments give you welfare?

Health care, food, and shelter are available privately for those that work hard to achieve them; they cannot be demanded as a right by anyone. For those unemployed, incapacitated, or sick there are numerous private sector aid programs and religious charities that assist with health care provision, emergency food and shelter. Moreover, charity is extended by the benevolent to those that truly need it. Governments should not be a part of any of this.

Stop demanding that governments take care of you - try not to be the lazy welfare cheat we have far too many of...
post #220 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Health Care is not a right!
Food is not a right!
Shelter is not a right!
Charity is not a right!

When the hell are you lazy liberals going to get off your ass and earn something rather than demanding governments give you welfare?

Health care, food, and shelter are available for those that work hard to achieve them; they cannot be demanded as a right. For those unemployed, incapacitated, or sick there are numerous private sector aid programs and religious charities that assist with health care provision, emergency food and shelter. Moreover, charity is extended by the benevolent to those that need it. Governments should not be a part of any of this.

Good! The next time a real depression happens then you can eat cake.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #221 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

So if that's true how is it that I never hear you say anything like that about the Republicans?

Primarily because, around here, it is mostly the "liberals" and "progressives" that are strutting around with arrogant, smug self righteousness and self assurance that they are "all that".


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I mean how do you think they got the moniker of " The party of No "?

Just asking.

Don't know. Don't care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The question you really need to answer is trhe first one however.

Don't really need to answer any of your questions.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #222 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, I can't say that we're doing any better with our greedy as fuck corporate nation. At some point we lost our way as a nation. We handed the reins to the corporations who care for nothing but the bottom line. We lost our humanity.

Oh, I beg to differ.

Read the Wikipedia entry on North Korea, for instance. Hundreds of thousands of people have died in recent decades due to famine, poor healthcare, etc.

Corporations didn't do that.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #223 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Good! The next time a real depression happens then you can eat cake.

And as you can see, Camp David exemplifies the selfishness and utter lack of compassion for humankind that I'm talking about.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #224 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Good! The next time a real depression happens then you can eat cake.

I have no cake in my emergency shelter but lots of survival chocolate in the event of a depression!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

... exemplifies the selfishness and utter lack of compassion for humankind that I'm talking about.

We tithe through our Church to support several charities and support our diocese...
post #225 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I mean how do you think they got the moniker of " The party of No "?

The minority party has often been referred to as the "Opposition Party", and for good reason. Would you really want to put unchecked and unquestioned power in the hands of one political party, even if it's the one you support?

I wouldn't.

The "Party of NO" is just a catch phrase opponents of the Opposition Party love to use to try to paint the picture that they want to get nothing done.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #226 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oh, I beg to differ.

Read the Wikipedia entry on North Korea, for instance. Hundreds of thousands of people have died in recent decades due to famine, poor healthcare, etc.

Corporations didn't do that.

Our corporate greed is the cause of a lot of our problems. That does not mean that corporate greed is the cause of ALL problems EVERYWHERE. What a failure of a leap in logic that was there on your part.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #227 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Primarily because, around here, it is mostly the "liberals" and "progressives" that are strutting around with arrogant, smug self righteousness and self assurance that they are "all that".




Don't know. Don't care.

Quote:
Primarily because, around here, it is mostly the "liberals" and "progressives" that are strutting around with arrogant, smug self righteousness and self assurance that they are "all that".

I'm sorry but I think you're discribing the conservatives here. Why do you think they get threads that have titles like " Why is AI overrun with conservatives? "

For me it's the rightwingers that have been oh so loud ever since the last election. Smug, self rightous ( " that's just crazy talk " ) and trumpy is the very discription of arrogant.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #228 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The minority party has often been referred to as the "Opposition Party", and for good reason. Would you really want to put unchecked and unquestioned power in the hands of one political party, even if it's the one you support?

I wouldn't.

The "Party of NO" is just a catch phrase opponents of the Opposition Party love to use to try to paint the picture that they want to get nothing done.

It's fairly accurate.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #229 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Our corporate greed is the cause of a lot of our problems. That does not mean that corporate greed is the cause of ALL problems EVERYWHERE. What a failure of a leap in logic that was there on your part.

Settle down, now. I used North Korea to make a point. It's not a "leap in logic", it's a fact.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #230 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'm sorry but I think you're discribing the conservatives here.

Of course you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Why do you think they get threads that have titles like " Why is AI overrun with conservatives? "

Because some liberal started one?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

For me it's the rightwingers that have been oh so loud ever since the last election. Smug, self rightous ( " that's just crazy talk " ) and trumpy is the very discription of arrogant.

I don't claim there aren't smug and arrogant conservatives or Republicans or "right-wingers." There certainly are. The trouble is that the left/liberals/progressives/Democrats seem to have this distinct air about them that suggests they are absent any of that attitude, they are just right. Period. They are just more enlightened. Period. They are just more compassionate and care more. Period. With the left it never seems to be a simple and honest disagreement about means and methods but rather a profound difference about goals and ends. Witness BR (et al). The right don't simply have a different opinion, they hate the poor, they are selfish, greedy bastards. It's not that the people who hold a different view about how to go about things are honestly trying to pursue a different pathway to the same ends, it's that the people he disagrees with are simply wrong and evil.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #231 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It's fairly accurate.

As it would have been if applied to the Democrats during 6 years of Bush's tenure in office.

Except on certain things like supporting illegal and unjust wars. On that the Republicans and Democrats agree.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #232 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Settle down, now. I used North Korea to make a point. It's not a "leap in logic", it's a fact.

Am I supposed to thank you for your unrelated point?

Me: Corporate greed has stolen our country's humanity.
You: North Korea has shitty problems, too! And it's not the corporations' fault!
Me: So what? THAT'S NOT THE FUCKING POINT! IT'S TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THE TOPIC AT HAND! /facepalm*∞.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #233 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Of course you do.



Because some liberal started one?




I don't claim there aren't smug and arrogant conservatives or Republicans or "right-wingers." There certainly are. The trouble is that the left/liberals/progressives/Democrats seem to have this distinct air about them that suggests they are absent any of that attitude, they are just right. Period. They are just more enlightened. Period. They are just more compassionate and care more. Period. With the left it never seems to be a simple and honest disagreement about means and methods but rather a profound difference about goals and ends. Witness BR (et al). The right don't simply have a different opinion, they hate the poor, they are selfish, greedy bastards. It's not that the people who hold a different view about how to go about things are honestly trying to pursue a different pathway to the same ends, it's that the people he disagrees with are simply wrong and evil.

What's your real plan to provide everyone with healthcare? What's your real plan to provide the poor with the bare necessities to survive?

If you don't have one or don't want one, we have different goals. And your goals are more selfish than mine.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #234 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Am I supposed to thank you for your unrelated point?

Me: Corporate greed has stolen our country's humanity.
You: North Korea has shitty problems, too! And it's not the corporations' fault!
Me: So what? THAT'S NOT THE FUCKING POINT! IT'S TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THE TOPIC AT HAND! /facepalm*∞.

Oh it's a very relevant point, you just refuse to engage in intelligent, civil discussion.

North Korea, with no corporations - at least none that aren't completely controlled by the government - has the very problems (poverty, poor health care, et al.) you accuse corporations of causing here in the United States.

So what is your solution? With or without corporations, the result seems to be the same, doesn't it? Actually, it seems to be worse without...

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #235 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What's your real plan to provide everyone with healthcare? What's your real plan to provide the poor with the bare necessities to survive?

If you don't have one or don't want one, we have different goals. And your goals are more selfish than mine.

Why should I depend on you for my survival or my healthcare? Why should I depend on government for those things?

Am I not the master of my own destiny?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #236 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Oh it's a very relevant point, you just refuse to engage in intelligent, civil discussion.

North Korea, with no corporations - at least none that aren't completely controlled by the government - has the very problems (poverty, poor health care, et al.) you accuse corporations of causing here in the United States.

So what is your solution? With or without corporations, the result seems to be the same, doesn't it? Actually, it seems to be worse without...

You can't be serious. Wow.

Are you seriously saying that because poverty exists in totalitarian regimes that poverty can't exist in other countries for other reasons? You really aren't worth talking to.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #237 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You can't be serious. Wow.

Are you seriously saying that because poverty exists in totalitarian regimes that poverty can't exist in other countries for other reasons? You really aren't worth talking to.

No, but you apparently think that's what I'm saying, so we're having a break down in communication, here.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #238 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What's your real plan to provide everyone with healthcare? What's your real plan to provide the poor with the bare necessities to survive?

If you don't have one or don't want one, we have different goals. And your goals are more selfish than mine.

You assume there must be some sort of master, centrally planned plan. I don't. You also continue your smug position that because we don't agree on the methods, we don't have the same ends in mind. If anything I believe I have better ends in mind: better, cheaper, more health care for more people plus freedom. The only path you seem to be able to see to your ends is basically socialism or some variant of fascism. This will only end in the opposite place of what you think and hope for. That's the real irony.

My plan, as it were, is to allow the free market to do what it does best (and much better than any government in the history of the world ever has done) and that is enable free people to work, trade and prosper and elevate the material well-being of everyone such that they are able to afford all of their own basic health care products and services and afford insurance for what insurance was meant to cover...unexpected but still possible major, catastrophic medical events.

More specifically though, regarding specific policy direction in the US, I would do the following:

- allow all forms of insurance to be sold across state lines
- eliminate all federal mandates for specific coverages or benefits
- eliminate any pre-existing condition coverage requirements (as mandated by law)
- eliminate all price controls on insurance premiums as well as medical products and services
- eliminate all government based licensing of insurance companies and medical care providers
- eliminate the FDA
- make medical insurance benefits from employers a taxable benefit
- implement some kind of lawsuit/tort reform that substantially reduces frivolous lawsuits against medical care providers

These actions would accomplish several things:

- unleash competition among insurance companies and medical care providers thus reducing prices, increasing quality, choices and service as demanded by the market
- eliminate the cozy protections that insurance companies and medical care providers have enjoyed which allow them to be less than competitive and charge higher prices while providing poorer service
- eliminate the employer/insurance lock-in that exists as employers drop insurance benefits and people buy medical insurance like they buy car, life or home insurance
- reduce prices for people who maintain generally healthy lifestyles and habits

And a bunch of other good stuff. Medical care would be substantially better and cheaper, so would insurance.

I realize now that, to you (and others), what I've just described is not only selfish and uncaring of me, probably evil, but also a fantasy if I think any of the good things I mentioned would actually happen. I know you also likely believe that government run healthcare (in one form or another) will have nothing but benefits and no real costs. I view that as your fantasy which is destine to be a train wreck. Sadly we're at an impasse.

Though we disagree (sharply) I don't actually consider you to be selfish or uncaring (even though I think your hopes and dreams of government run healthcare are merely a placebo that ultimately only makes you feel good about helping others without actually helping others) I merely consider you to be misguided. Guided by your dreams and wishes and hopes (not to mention the demons you've constructed in your head of the people you disagree with) rather than by logic and reason and facts. I actually think you do mean well, I just think the way you think things should be won't actually get things done the way you think they will. So I respectfully disagree with the approaches you appear to advocate.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #239 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

How much more "unexpectedly" bad news is one supposed to expect, before it becomes expected?

Answer: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...024153682.html

The U.S. economy shed

more jobs than expected in July ... a further sign the economic recovery may be losing momentum. Don't worry though. Obama remains aloof as he vacations with BR on Mars

Taking into account revisions to prior months this year, the U.S. economy added an average of less than 100,000 jobs a month in the first seven months, a level that's

not strong enough to bring unemployment down. Yes. It's all Bush's fault
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post #240 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The funny thing is that when it comes to actual results, there is little difference between modern Republicans and Democrats.

True. The difference has amounted to big government, and bigger government. One is sustainable, the other is... what we have.

Quote:
But they want us to keep bickering amongst ourselves. It keeps us distracted.

Also true. That's why everyone should simply agree with me
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