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"6 Months Until the Largest Tax Hikes in History" - Page 17

post #641 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Can you say regulation needed but not present?

I could say that. Don't know how that's applicable here. If someone wishes to try and invest in the short term and try to make money day-trading, then they should be free to do so (and lose the money they are likely to lose in the process). Once they burn their fingers enough on the stove they'll learn to not touch it any more.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #642 of 683
The little guys can't do it. The big guys have blatantly unfair advantages. And it goes against the spirit of investing to behave the way the big guys do.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #643 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Yes, I enjoy toggling between threads. It's how I roll.

But I am done talking to you until you elaborate on your own position.

Oh Jesus! How childish. You'll be done for a long time because I want you to commit to a position before you criticize or ask questions of others for theirs.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #644 of 683
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman

I think what it comes down to is this: do you trust people to do the right thing if given more freedom?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #645 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Oh Jesus! How childish. You'll be done for a long time because I want you to commit to a position before you criticize or ask questions of others for theirs.

Oh shit...I almost spit my Coke all over my screen when I read this. Fuck that was too funny for words.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #646 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I could say that. Don't know how that's applicable here. If someone wishes to try and invest in the short term and try to make money day-trading, then they should be free to do so (and lose the money they are likely to lose in the process). Once they burn their fingers enough on the stove they'll learn to not touch it any more.

I believe I've already said that here :
Quote:
But I'm guessing that these guys think well if the poor suckers were dumb enough to fall for false promises ( like Goldman Sachs ) too bad.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #647 of 683
DO YOU LIVE IN THE SAME WORLD I DO? Holy FUCKING shit! What part of unbridled greed do you not undersetand? We are IN THE CRISIS WE ARE IN because given less regulation, those with the means and the power to abuse it, did so EGREGIOUSLY.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #648 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman

I think what it comes down to is this: do you trust people to do the right thing if given more freedom?

I think you know the answer to this. My guess is you won't get any authoritarian, collectivist, statist "liberal progressive" to admit that they are really afraid of freedom and particularly other people having freedom.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #649 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman

I think what it comes down to is this: do you trust people to do the right thing if given more freedom?

I believe in freedom but if the last decade is any example you need some protection from those who would take advantage of those freedoms. That's why we have laws, policemen, attorneys etc.

It would be nice in a utopian society where everyone does the right thing but the news in the world right now just doesn't reflect that. Humans are a work in progress.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #650 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

DO YOU LIVE IN THE SAME WORLD I DO? Holy FUCKING shit! What part of unbridled greed do you not undersetand?

For money or power?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

We are IN THE CRISIS WE ARE IN because given less regulation...

Bzzzt. Wrong answer. Try again.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #651 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Oh shit...I almost spit my Coke all over my screen when I read this. Fuck that was too funny for words.

This would go for you as well.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #652 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

For money or power?




Bzzzt. Wrong answer. Try again.

Buzzz! Tell us why it's wrong?
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #653 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It would be nice in a utopian society where everyone does the right thing but the news right now just doesn't reflect that. Humans are a work in progress.

Yes. So let's give them lots of power over others. Brilliant.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #654 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Yes. So let's give them lots of power over others. Brilliant.

Wild West remember? So you're an anarchist as well?

I'm sorry but this is a pretty well tested item for quite a while now. No laws mean no stopping anything from happening. And it will.

The people elect officials so they can govern themselves. Governments are made up of people as well so there's always a chance of corruption. It's not perfect but we've already seen the alternative. That would never work in a moden society or civilization. Only in the Wild West.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization

Living in one means you have to work together. That means rules ( laws ) that means things are regulated. There's no way arond this one. Not until we evolve some more at least.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #655 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

No laws...

Nice straw man.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #656 of 683
Ford decided it was cheaper to settle lawsuits than to fix fatal flaws in its Pinto. Greed.

AIG takes bailout money and then gives huge bonuses to its management. Greed.

Predatory lending promising the American Dream at 1% a year. Greed.

CEO compensation compared to that of average employee salaries skyrockets from 40 to 1 to 250 to 1. Greed.

The Georgia Peanut Company tested samples of their product and found it had salmonella. Instead of stopping shipments, they tested more and more samples until they found some that passed. They didn't disclose the first positive result. Six people died. GREED.


When left to their own devices, what we have seen is corporations put their bottom line above all else. Sure, there are exceptions, but just take an honest look at the history of business and see how many tragedies could have been avoided if GREED weren't the central tenet.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #657 of 683
BR...you're frothing at the mouth again...need a paper towel to clean the spittle off your screen?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #658 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Nice straw man.

Easy out for you huh?

Show me where that's not true.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #659 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

BR...you're frothing at the mouth again...need a paper towel to clean the spittle off your screen?

" I'm superior " type Insult again.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #660 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

" I'm superior " type Insult again.

Not at all.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #661 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Not at all.

I think it's right on the mark myself. Kind of a trademark or tactic.

But of course you'd say that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #662 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

BR...you're frothing at the mouth again...need a paper towel to clean the spittle off your screen?

Ah yes, the "Shit, you made a fucking good point and I have nothing of merit to say" response.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #663 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ah yes, the "Shit, you made a fucking good point and I have nothing of merit to say" response.

No. No it was the "you're frothing at the mouth again" reply.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #664 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

No. No it was the "you're frothing at the mouth again" reply.

Ah! You mean the insult because you have nothing reply.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #665 of 683


Cough it up!

Quote:
Treasury officials' most obvious option is the least attractive. If they publish tables based on expiration of the Bush tax cuts, which occurs Jan. 1, millions of low- and middle-income taxpayers who have paid little or no income taxes for a decade would likely see increases in January. Prof. Graetz estimates that higher withholding could take up to $10 billion a month out workers' pockets due to higher tax rates alone. Other benefits also are expiring.

Other "benefits" include exemption from the AMT, capital gains taxes, the death tax...

Quote:
A childless couple earning $40,000, for example, could see their monthly take home pay shrink by about $100, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. If they had three children, they might face a further cut of $125 a month, said Scott Mezistrano, an official with the American Payroll Association.

Quote:
If paychecks get smaller, even temporarily, taxpayer reaction is likely to be intense.

"Intense". I love it.
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post #666 of 683
AAAAAAAAAAND Obama wants to prevent the taxes from going up on anyone making fewer than $250,000. Republicans are blocking this. DUH.

Don't you think it's OBVIOUS that the Republicans planned this sunset clause from the beginning? So it would be an ELECTION ISSUE?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #667 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

AAAAAAAAAAND Obama wants to prevent the taxes from going up on anyone making fewer than $250,000. Republicans are blocking this. DUH.

It's interesting how perspective can change how things look.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Don't you think it's OBVIOUS that the Republicans planned this sunset clause from the beginning? So it would be an ELECTION ISSUE?

Perhaps they did. I think we should re-elect the Democrats because they never engage in such bullshit political gamesmanship.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #668 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

AAAAAAAAAAND Obama wants to prevent the taxes from going up on anyone making fewer than $250,000. Republicans are blocking this. DUH.

Don't you think it's OBVIOUS that the Republicans planned this sunset clause from the beginning? So it would be an ELECTION ISSUE?

They used reconciliation to shove the tax cuts down our throats. Laws passed by reconciliation can only last 10 years.

Reconciliation is only good if Republicans do it.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #669 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

They used reconciliation to shove the tax cuts down our throats.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Reconciliation is only good if Republicans do it.

And I guess shoving shit down our throats is only good if Democrats do it?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #670 of 683
He was pointing out the irony in today's Republican message to America. You do see the irony, right?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #671 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by john galt View Post

"Intense". I love it.

"Stop All the Bad Stuff" - Boehner’s Prescription Could Work

Quote:
At a small, informal breakfast in Midtown New York Tuesday morning, House Republican leader John Boehner said the lame-duck Congress, scheduled roughly for November 15 through December 22, will pass a bill that extends all the Bush tax cuts. And he said President Obama will not veto that bill.



Could O have come to the realization this is his only hope for a second term?

If the extension of the Bush tax cuts - all of them - comes to pass, I'll revise his chances for re-election up to 50%. The good news is that Congress - the institution that really matters in all this mess - will no longer be led by the Wicked Witch of the West.

Quote:
If policy and politics move in the right direction following the November elections, the cloud of uncertainty could begin to evaporate and the U.S. economy could explode on the upside.

"Explode". I love it.
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post #672 of 683
The tax rates going back up sounds great. The problem is bad enough that we need to attack from both ends. (cut spending & increase taxes) I can't buy all that doom and gloom that if we raise taxes the world explodes. This has been said about everything and it doesn't seem to happen soooo.... I'll play the odds.
post #673 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation View Post

The tax rates going back up sounds great.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation View Post

The problem is bad enough that we need to attack from both ends. (cut spending & increase taxes)

This seems logical enough until you figure out the disproportionately negative impact to the budget that tax increases would have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation View Post

I'll play the odds.

How courageous of you...playing the odds with other people's money.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #674 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

This seems logical enough until you figure out the disproportionately negative impact to the budget that tax increases would have.

So, you say we must leave the federal income tax rate at its 60 year low. I will go out on a limb and assume that to reduce the deficit you would completely do away with all entitlements?
post #675 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation View Post

So, you say we must leave the federal income tax rate at its 60 year low.

Ultimately I'd like to see us get rid of the income tax...for a variety of reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation View Post

I will go out on a limb and assume that to reduce the deficit you would completely do away with all entitlements?

Well that would probably do it, yeah. In fact, that's just about the only thing that would do it (long term.)

You could start by eliminating all discretionary spending (including the entire defense) budget and then you'd be in balance. For a short time. Then thing would soon start getting out of balance as the remaining budget (mostly entitlement programs) begin to grow and exceed revenues. Then what do you do? I assume you would raise taxes. OK. Fine. But at some point you will not be able to raise taxes any further but the entitlements continue to grow. The entitlement programs, much to the denial and dismay of liberals, is the core problem.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #676 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation View Post

The tax rates going back up sounds great. The problem is bad enough that we need to attack from both ends. (cut spending & increase taxes) I can't buy all that doom and gloom that if we raise taxes the world explodes. This has been said about everything and it doesn't seem to happen soooo.... I'll play the odds.

Sound bites and clever slogans are part of the problem that has created this misery. As long as you use hyperbole and inappropriate analogies, discussion will be futile. Real solutions require thought.

If you don't think you're paying enough taxes, and you want to pay more, you certainly may. I provided a link earlier in this thread for your convenience. Credit cards are accepted.

May I assume you're not interested in contributing more? If so, may I ask why you believe others might?
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post #677 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

... The entitlement programs, much to the denial and dismay of liberals, is the core problem.

I don't have the source at hand, but I believe a modest 3% GDP growth, every year, would enable Social Security to remain solvent forever. No new taxes, no changes, no extensions to retirement age required.

It's only one entitlement program of many, but it's the biggest. 3% is well within the realm of possibility. The key is GDP growth. Tax increases, even the threat of them, limits GDP growth. The "great recession" has been a debacle for SS. Just about every act of Congress since 2007 has had the effect of prolonging the misery.
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post #678 of 683
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gafflation
The tax rates going back up sounds great. The problem is bad enough that we need to attack from both ends. (cut spending & increase taxes) I can't buy all that doom and gloom that if we raise taxes the world explodes. This has been said about everything and it doesn't seem to happensoooo.... I'll play the odds.

I don't know how many times it has to be proven that raising taxes does not result in more revenue in the long term. Tax increases are not the answer here. The answer is to cut spending dramatically, while also lowering taxes. And no, we can't get rid of entitlements at this point. It's not realistic, nor feasible. We need to reform them.

We should change the funding model for social security to a national sales tax. And we should completely start over the with the tax code. Make taxes easy and fair. Tax everyone at 5%, then progressively after they reach 125% of the federal poverty line. Allow deductions for housing (housing market problem solved), transportation (auto industry problem solved), children, education and business expenses. It should take you less than 30 minutes to do your taxes. Eliminate the waste, fraud and mistakes from the system and institute a fair tax rate (maximum 20% federal) and you'll see the economy explode. Every American would get a 12% raise from the SS changes.

Let's also do away with thousands of federal employees and dozens of agencies. What do the thousands of employees at the Dept. of Education, Agriculture, Bureau of Labor and Statistics, et al do? The Dept. of education has 5,000 employees. What?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #679 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

We should change the funding model for social security to a national sales tax.

Why not do away with the income tax altogether? The treasury functioned just fine for over 100 years without one.

A consumption tax can easily replace the income tax. It's simple to administer and impossible to avoid. Those mythical tax shelters the liberals are so fond of blaming "the rich" of exploiting would cease to exist. My one condition is that the the income tax is gone. Forever. What I earn is none of anyone's damn business. Congress can't even define what "income" is anyway, despite over 71,000 pages of tax code legislation. The only people who would object are armies of tax attorneys who would have to find something else to do. No likes them anyway.

Quote:
Let's also do away with thousands of federal employees and dozens of agencies. What do the thousands of employees at the Dept. of Education, Agriculture, Bureau of Labor and Statistics, et al do? The Dept. of education has 5,000 employees. What?

What do they do? They employ lots of people with generous salaries and handsome benefits with guaranteed pensions - and produce nothing.

I'd like to know of one federal agency that does its job effectively. Other than the IRS that is.
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post #680 of 683
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Ultimately I'd like to see us get rid of the income tax...for a variety of reasons.

Well that would probably do it, yeah. In fact, that's just about the only thing that would do it (long term.)

You could start by eliminating all discretionary spending (including the entire defense) budget and then you'd be in balance. For a short time. Then thing would soon start getting out of balance as the remaining budget (mostly entitlement programs) begin to grow and exceed revenues. Then what do you do? I assume you would raise taxes. OK. Fine. But at some point you will not be able to raise taxes any further but the entitlements continue to grow. The entitlement programs, much to the denial and dismay of liberals, is the core problem.

MJ, you views are extreme in my opinion but if it helps you do know at least 1 Democrat here that does NOT deny how much of a problem entitlements have become. The 2009 Federal Budget expenditures speak for themselves.

SS = 20%
Medicare/Medicaid = 19%
Unemployment/Welfare = 10%
Defense/War on Terror = 23%
Interest = 5%
Each of the big Departments make up 0.5% to 2% each.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

I don't know how many times it has to be proven that raising taxes does not result in more revenue in the long term. Tax increases are not the answer here. The answer is to cut spending dramatically, while also lowering taxes. And no, we can't get rid of entitlements at this point. It's not realistic, nor feasible. We need to reform them.

We should change the funding model for social security to a national sales tax. And we should completely start over the with the tax code. Make taxes easy and fair. Tax everyone at 5%, then progressively after they reach 125% of the federal poverty line. Allow deductions for housing (housing market problem solved), transportation (auto industry problem solved), children, education and business expenses. It should take you less than 30 minutes to do your taxes. Eliminate the waste, fraud and mistakes from the system and institute a fair tax rate (maximum 20% federal) and you'll see the economy explode. Every American would get a 12% raise from the SS changes.

Let's also do away with thousands of federal employees and dozens of agencies. What do the thousands of employees at the Dept. of Education, Agriculture, Bureau of Labor and Statistics, et al do? The Dept. of education has 5,000 employees. What?

I can't expect someone on the right to ever be for a tax increase. But there was no Mad Max world pre Bush Tax cuts. I would care a little less if we had started a war tax? in 2003.

I'm fine with simplifying the tax code to "eliminate the waste, fraud and mistakes" There are some loopholes and abuses to close. Some things are hard to enforce such as persons that get paid in cash or make cash tips and typically tax evade such as waiters, bartenders, strippers etc.

Quote:
And no, we can't get rid of entitlements at this point. It's not realistic, nor feasible

Its nice to see a righty admit this. We all know they need to be made more efficient and slowly tapered off. Eliminating them? I don't see how plunging millions of poor people into poverty or homelessness helps the situation like MJ wants to do.
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