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Android struggling to mimic iPhone's pay-to-own marketplace? - Page 3

post #81 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

They never said that.

They said those words, even if the isolated implication wasn't their actual intention in the context of their own sentence. The follow on wasn't overly explicit in its meaning either.

Semantics and clarity of meaning are important in good journalism, if only to prevent manipulative quotations.

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post #82 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Wasn't Google the first to employ the "remote kill switch" to delete malicious apps, that thing that got everyone up in arms over the iOS App Store?

Google's kill switch deletes apps while Apple's only disables them. Although what practical difference that makes I don't know.

So yes, Google was the first to delete apps. Apple then would be the first to remotely disable apps, I guess.
post #83 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty of Bath View Post

Yes but, advertising is a very fungible expenditure, not all appears as advertising in the accounts...

I absolutely understand your point and agree. Case in point, Google's entire business is advertising and even without the Apple logo on things the iconic designs are in and of theme selves advertisements. Unfortunately, there is no way to directly account for those things with any relative accuracy, so the Business Insider chart and article is the only data I have.
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post #84 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewchenko View Post

And yet I own an iMac and an iPad currently, and have spent 000's on apple hardware over the years. It doesnt make Apple Godlike you know. They are not above criticism.

I agree, nobody is above criticism ... however, constantly buying from a company that you constantly criticize just doesn't pass "the smell test." .... but that's the great thing about the internet ... anybody can claim anything ... and often do. We can only judge people by their actions ... not by what they claim to own.
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post #85 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley View Post

They said those words, even if the isolated implication wasn't their actual intention in the context of their own sentence. The follow on wasn't overly explicit in its meaning either.

Semantics and clarity of meaning are important in good journalism, if only to prevent manipulative quotations.

I don't know how anybody, who looked at the accompanying charts, could ever arrive at the same conclusion as you ... I'm guessing that you went straight to the comments without reading the main story?
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post #86 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

The other thing you have to take into consideration is that Tom Tom uses GPS which is far more accurate than just A-GPS.

A-GPS is GPS plus additional data brought in by a side band (for phones, cellular data) for faster initialization, among other things. At least on iPhone, it it is better than GPS, not worse than. You might be thinking of WiFi triangulation or cell-tower triangulation, which is probably not nearly as good as GPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

If people don't see any value in a $30 piece of rubber that can be had from a different seller in almost identical form for $1, why would they buy it?

People buy the $30 bumper from Apple because they value convenience (do not need to go to a different store) or because they value low risk (a third-party bumper will have a slightly higher risk of not having perfectly working buttons etc.) or because they value the status signal (I am rich enough to not bother shopping around for cheap bumpers).

Ripping people off is either abusing a monopoly position (I don't think Apple has a monopoly on bumpers) or charge some people more than others for the same product. Apple is doing neither.

Admittedly, Apple has a monopoly for bumpers sold in Apple stores but since it very easy to get a bumper somewhere else, this is only a very weak monopoly.

It does look nice, and I don't think anyone else inserts the metal buttons into their cases. I think Apple still sells other brand cases in their own store. The same would be true of AT&T and Best Buy stores. Most cases seem to run about $25 and up anyway at a retail store, it's hardly out of the ordinary unless you're comparing it to someone selling very inexpensive alternative brand cases from overseas on eBay. Then you need to plan on waiting 10-14 days for delivery, so there's a trade-off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

Actually Android Store is 100% free. Buy an app, backup, and cancel before 24 hours. VoilÃ*, free app.

If that's true, I think that's a great way to discourage developers from supporting the platform. Probably not the best thing to do if you really want the Android platform thrive.
post #87 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

Google's kill switch deletes apps while Apple's only disables them. Although what practical difference that makes I don't know.

So yes, Google was the first to delete apps. Apple then would be the first to remotely disable apps, I guess.

The difference is, remote kill will delete the apps not only in the market store, but also in the user's devices. While disable means the app is removed from app store, but if you downloaded before, you still can use it.
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post #88 of 124
Android apps are mediocre compared to iOS ones. Try finding a good RSS app for Android. Not going to happen! iOS has half a dozen great ones: NewsRack, Pulse News, Reeder, Byline, etc. The quality gap is probably why many Android apps are free.
post #89 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

The difference is, remote kill will delete the apps not only in the market store, but also in the user's devices. While disable means the app is removed from app store, but if you downloaded before, you still can use it.

Are you saying Google has two options or that Apple's "remote kill switch" can't actually disable an app remotely (ie: on an iOS device)? This article states Apple's remote kill switch can make an app on an iDevice unusable.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/14956...or_can_it.html
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post #90 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

The difference is, remote kill will delete the apps not only in the market store, but also in the user's devices. While disable means the app is removed from app store, but if you downloaded before, you still can use it.

Actually, Apple can remotely disable an app on the device. Where did you get the idea that it wasn't possible - a link would be handy if you have one...
post #91 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Are you saying Google has two options or that Apple's "remote kill switch" can't actually disable an app remotely (ie: on an iOS device)? This article states Apple's remote kill switch can make an app on an iDevice unusable.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/14956...or_can_it.html

Both Google and Apple have remote kill switch capability. Google used twice, Apple none.
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post #92 of 124
I thought this chart was interesting...


(The Reg reports that the poll comprised 2000+ smartphone developers)


No surprises though.

Chopper.
post #93 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

Both Google and Apple have remote kill switch capability. Google used twice, Apple none.

I'm well aware of the number of times each has been used, but that doesn't answer the question I asked regarding your previous comment.
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post #94 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I'm well aware of the number of times each has been used, but that doesn't answer the question I asked regarding your previous comment.

I think language got in the way there. He might not have caught the subtlety in my response that Apple wasn't able to delete the apps remotely, but was still able to disable them remotely. I think he believed I was somehow talking about removing them from sale.

But it's hard to tell...
post #95 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

If I were an Android Developer, I would say, FUCK GOOGLE. Or actually they'd already said that implicitly. I just happened to read a complain from a developer in official Android forum, saying that 30% of his app sales were canceled, and several of them are canceled in seconds! 30% is enough to be said as common practice.

Also google only allow to sell apps only in 9 countries. Whether this is to promote free software or just incapability to handle the payment, in the developers' point of view that sucks to the bone. I'm happy that I develop iPhone apps.

I completely agree that Google and their app sales method is not perfect, and 30 percent is an unacceptable amount of returns, the simple solution is to use the kill switch technology that Google has, targeted to the account of the person who made the return, you return an app, you get a delete signal and lose the app.

It does suck for devs and needs to be fixed, but Apple doesn't have a return system for cruddy apps, and lets face facts, for every one good app there are 10 shit apps. and a reasonable return system is a great way to help the cream rise to the top, assuming that returns impact your app store rankings in an inverse way as sales do.
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post #96 of 124
Android probably has a hard time selling apps when they give away an app that downloads paid apps for free. Ah the joys of an unwatched app store.
post #97 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

I think language got in the way there. He might not have caught the subtlety in my response that Apple wasn't able to delete the apps remotely, but was still able to disable them remotely. I think he believed I was somehow talking about removing them from sale.

But it's hard to tell...

We should agree first what are the definition of delete, disable and remote kill in this context
post #98 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

I completely agree that Google and their app sales method is not perfect, and 30 percent is an unacceptable amount of returns, the simple solution is to use the kill switch technology that Google has, targeted to the account of the person who made the return, you return an app, you get a delete signal and lose the app.

It does suck for devs and needs to be fixed, but Apple doesn't have a return system for cruddy apps, and lets face facts, for every one good app there are 10 shit apps. and a reasonable return system is a great way to help the cream rise to the top, assuming that returns impact your app store rankings in an inverse way as sales do.

The main problem with Android Apps, signing or DRM is not mandatory. So it is easy to copy an application to storage card, and copy to other device. It is not uncommon to find Android apps "bundle" at MegaUpload or RapidShare. That's why GameLoft left Android Market.

I also hope Apple tighten the approval process and screen out cheap useless apps.
post #99 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by babiasu View Post

We should agree first what are the definition of delete, disable and remote kill in this context

Apparently so...
post #100 of 124
There is no reason that a handset manufactorer should sell exclusively to a single carrier. In fact no other handset manufactorer but apple does this. Maybe AT&T has outsmarted Apple in their contract negotiation.
post #101 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by xylifyx View Post

There is no reason that a handset manufactorer should sell exclusively to a single carrier. In fact no other handset manufactorer but apple does this. Maybe AT&T has outsmarted Apple in their contract negotiation.

Perhaps as little history would help you understand.
Quote:
The Untold Story: How the iPhone Blew Up the Wireless Industry

After a year and a half of secret meetings, Jobs had finally negotiated terms with the wireless division of the telecom giant (Cingular at the time) to be the iPhone's carrier. In return for five years of exclusivity, roughly 10 percent of iPhone sales in AT&T stores, and a thin slice of Apple's iTunes revenue, AT&T had granted Jobs unprecedented power. He had cajoled AT&T into spending millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to create a new feature, so-called visual voicemail, and to reinvent the time-consuming in-store sign-up process.…

Read More http://www.wired.com/gadgets/wireles...#ixzz0stXplhXf


As I say, my parents would do and say a lot of things I couldn't quite understand and accept until I had a kid of my own. Now I really appreciate how smart they were and how much of a smartass I could be. Still learning.
post #102 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrisar View Post

Where are the assumptions? These are facts. Just check the press releases. And shouldn't this top notch, state of the art company correct there errors right away? I don't think the dust will settle before they got a right. Which should be straight away for a device costing over 700 USD.

Just how would you go about it, not knowing first the cause and secondly having resolved the fix? You would have made a great surgeon.

And lets put things in perspective.

As far as we know, the issues with the iPhone 4 are affecting a minority of the 1.7 million sold. It may be inconvenient or even downright unsatisfactory to some, however, it is not debilitating or life threatening as do a million or more of other things do around the world that affect more people than a cell phone.
This is only a partial list of US recalls, and forget about blaming foreign manufacturers
post #103 of 124
Android is turning into what Windows Mobile used to be.
post #104 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

If people don't see any value in a $30 piece of rubber that can be had from a different seller in almost identical form for $1, why would they buy it?

People buy the $30 bumper from Apple because they value convenience (do not need to go to a different store) or because they value low risk (a third-party bumper will have a slightly higher risk of not having perfectly working buttons etc.) or because they value the status signal (I am rich enough to not bother shopping around for cheap bumpers).

In reality, there are no $1 cases for iPhones - either identical or not. The ones I've seen in retail stores range from $15 to over $100. The $15 cases are widely criticized for having a poor fit. The lowest cost 'quality' cases I've seen typically run $25 to $30 - about the same as the Apple bumpers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noirdesir View Post

Ripping people off is either abusing a monopoly position (I don't think Apple has a monopoly on bumpers) or charge some people more than others for the same product. Apple is doing neither.

Admittedly, Apple has a monopoly for bumpers sold in Apple stores but since it very easy to get a bumper somewhere else, this is only a very weak monopoly.

Please stop misusing words you don't understand. Apple doesn't have a monopoly on iPhone cases in ANY sense. Choosing to sell only one brand of case in your own stores isn't a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

No argument here, but tech companies seem to do pretty good.

I suspect that this is misleading. Google advertises extensively on their own site and other sites using AdWords. I'm guessing that they either don't report this expense or report it at their own cost - which is nearly zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuwafuwa View Post

If I were an Android Developer, I would say, FUCK GOOGLE. Or actually they'd already said that implicitly. I just happened to read a complain from a developer in official Android forum, saying that 30% of his app sales were canceled, and several of them are canceled in seconds! 30% is enough to be said as common practice.

Also google only allow to sell apps only in 9 countries. Whether this is to promote free software or just incapability to handle the payment, in the developers' point of view that sucks to the bone. I'm happy that I develop iPhone apps.

Yes, Google is much better talking about 'open' than actually practicing it.

I suspect that the above is one of the reasons why the quality of the apps on Android are so poor. Anyone seriously interested in making money selling apps is going to be making iPhone apps for a long time.
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post #105 of 124
Again, another blatantly biased article against Android. "Struggling" and "fledgling" are two words that I would not use to describe the Android Market. Instead, based on the the fact that there are now over 65,000 apps in the Market, second only to Apple's, and that there are over 130,000 activations a day worldwide, there is no "struggling" whatsoever about Android. In fact, the rate of adoption of Android has surpassed the rate of Apple.

Yes, the Android Market has more free apps than anyone else. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Many developers get their money through advertising or other means, so "free" should be looked at as a benefit, not a detriment. And, what's more, it benefits the consumer, which is the driving force behind the success of any company.
post #106 of 124
You were doing so well until you wrote this one. The computer wasn't built to run both Mac OS and windows. Hackers figured it out first forcing Apple to allow it. Apple goes after those who dare put Mac OS on any other computer with extreme prejudice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post


When one computer was designed so it was capable of running Mac OS or Windows you would find the same in the PC world ....[B]NOT
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post #107 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

Hackers figured it out first forcing Apple to allow it.

Welcome to the "rooster crowing in the morning causes the sun to come up" school of logic.
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post #108 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post

You were doing so well until you wrote this one. The computer wasn't built to run both Mac OS and windows. Hackers figured it out first forcing Apple to allow it.

Like Robin suggested, it didn't happen that way. It's pretty clear Apple was going to offer Boot Camp because they released it within about a week of when the hackers released their kit. I very highly doubt Apple could have put Boot Camp together in a week.

Quote:
Apple goes after those who dare put Mac OS on any other computer with extreme prejudice.

Using lawyers, and only on commercial entities trying to sell new computers with OS X or commercial software to make it painless. They have yet to go after hobbyists. These days, there is not that much of a technical barrier preventing OS X on a non-Mac.
post #109 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post

The reason the Apple way is not cheap is that they take more care and pride in what they do. They don't push cheaply made and designed me-too product out the door just to make a quick buck. When they do make mistakes, they tend to be for the right reason. By this I mean that any antenna problems that people may be having could have easily been avoided by Apple just continuing to use an internal antenna just like they did previously, and like everyone else does. Instead they chose to innovate, taking the risks that go with that. I admire and respect that.

The person who tries to innovate will have the risk of making lot of mistakes (There is lot of stuff in history to back this theory). But, the person who doesn't take risks for innovation makes exactly one mistake.

I guess there are lot of people out there who knew that iPhone would fail when it was first launched, and around 10x number of people who knew that iPad would be a failure. People argued that they did nothing new but the point was what exactly had stopped others from not doing (maybe be the balls, steel v/s foam) first (and in a usable way).

These kind of people should be out there otherwise new products cannot succeed. The technology industry makes lot of advancement which doesn't percolate into usable products for the users, the attitude of being "I-don't-want-to-jump-first" makes these advancements sit in the labs for years.
post #110 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He's not saying he has a problem buying brand name products that are of a quality he desires (as referenced his his cycling comment), he's saying that he doesn't want to blatantly advertise on top of that. He can put a sticker over his Apple logo but it's still a Mac and that won't change or hide that fact.

Perhaps his example wasn't great, but consider band apparel. I've never understood the desire to pay $30-50 for apparel that literally makes you a walking billboard. It's not like the shirt plays their music. Same goes for many companies that stick a logo on an item that they don't actually make.

Like Designed for Windoze Xp, Winslow Vista, Windows 7 & Intel inside. Indeed these advertisers do pay money for those stickers to make people believe that such computers were only made to run hmm.... (Linux)

BTW, nexus one & the newer Samsung phones have the Google on the back (which is essentially what google is all about "advertisement").
post #111 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

As far as we know, the issues with the iPhone 4 are affecting a minority of the 1.7 million sold. manufacturers.

Note, that was from the first 3 days of sales, it's now been nearly 2 weeks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Android is turning into what Windows Mobile used to be.

The most successful licensed smartphone OS?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrisar View Post

So, the iPhone 4 must first be life threatening before Apple doing anything to the problem? And it is a problem, not according to me, but to independent research.

The mere fact that Apple is issuing a solving pattern by showing less bars is completely debilitating. The problem is not the bars. The problem is that, again according to independent research, reception is diminishing to near zero when holding your iPhone. Not holding it in a strange way. No by holding it in a way that 75% of the people do... except for the SJ worshipers of course. They're quite happy to have their calls drop.

It doesn't have to be life threatening, but ig sure helps when trying to argue that very iPhone 4 should be recalled.

Not all effected, it apparently only happens when you signal strength is waning (24dB change), and is still a very useful device according to most pundits affected.

But none of those are of any consequence because Apple has done the unusual by officially stating a fix will be coming in a few weeks, and reinterated that you have 30-days to return the device, risk free (so long as you haven't damaged it).

There is no part of that scresms for a recall.
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post #112 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShepherd View Post

Their junk is made in the same Chinese sweat shops as the Dell junk, HP junk, etc. with the same parts that they all use. If Apple would let you open their units without voiding their warranty, you would find the same HD, memory chips and such. The reason they are not cheap is because you will pay more.

1) Apple custom engineers much of their own silicon, this can make a huge difference in software performance.
2) Every company has the ability to regulate quality of their products no matter where they are made. Just because something is made even in the same factory as say a Dell product doesn't mean quality of the final product is therefor equal. Like saying every painting made by 1 artist will come out of equal quality, the world is not that simple or linear.
3) Many people do open their units despite it voiding warranty. There is no real secret to what makes up the guts of any Apple product.

I do agree though that they charge what they do in large part because they can.
post #113 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Note, that was from the first 3 days of sales, it's now been nearly 2 weeks.

Are you suggesting that the issue is now effecting the majority of iPhone 4 owners?

The few people that have complained here don't represent the world.
post #114 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrisar View Post

So, the iPhone 4 must first be life threatening before Apple doing anything to the problem? And it is a problem, not according to me, but to independent research.

The mere fact that Apple is issuing a solving pattern by showing less bars is completely debilitating. The problem is not the bars. The problem is that, again according to independent research, reception is diminishing to near zero when holding your iPhone. Not holding it in a strange way. No by holding it in a way that 75% of the people do... except for the SJ worshipers of course. They're quite happy to have their calls drop.

As far as I can see, the experts all seem to agree that most of the time diminishing bars did not effect calls.

And for a person that is so well in tune, I am still waiting so see how you would have gone about it. But then it might be a little harder for you to do so, not having an iPhone 4 in the first place to judge the experience yourself.
post #115 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

Are you suggesting that the issue is now effecting the majority of iPhone 4 owners?

The few people that have complained here don't represent the world.

What did I write that would possible infer a comment about effects on reception or the number of users affected?

You made a comment regarding a set number of sold phones being 1.7 million. I clarified that the 1.7M figure is from 3 days or sales and pointed out that 13 days of sales have now happened. Thats it, nothing more, nothing less.
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post #116 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

What did I write that would possible infer a comment about effects on reception or the number of users affected?

You made a comment regarding a set number of sold phones being 1.7 million. I clarified that the 1.7M figure is from 3 days or sales and pointed out that 13 days of sales have now happened. Thats it, nothing more, nothing less.

1.7 million is the only number of iPhone 4's that I know that have been sold to date.

If Apple has gotten more in stock, I haven't heard of or been officially privileged to it.
post #117 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka View Post

1.7 million is the only number of iPhone 4's that I know that have been sold to date.

If Apple has gotten more in stock, I haven't heard of or been officially privileged to it.

1.7M is the number of iPhones Apple said they sold in the first 3 days since hitting the shelves. That does not mean no other phones were sold in that 10 days after that. There have been lines at stores every day and they are getting more units in everyday, though probably not at every store. Either way, they have sold more phones in the 10 days after that figure was stated.
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post #118 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseymac View Post

And another thread has descended into madness. Perhaps the good people at Apple Insider could have worked through the holiday weekend and gave us more stories to fight about. The two day drought seems to have given some here a lot of pent up frustrations.

But you gotta admit it's much more fun to read.
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post #119 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

Like Robin suggested, it didn't happen that way. It's pretty clear Apple was going to offer Boot Camp because they released it within about a week of when the hackers released their kit. I very highly doubt Apple could have put Boot Camp together in a week.



Using lawyers, and only on commercial entities trying to sell new computers with OS X or commercial software to make it painless. They have yet to go after hobbyists. These days, there is not that much of a technical barrier preventing OS X on a non-Mac.

II'm pretty sure that the hackers forced their hand. And you're missing my point. Apple DID NOT use Intel chips so that windows could be installed on their Macs as was suggested. All you Mac devotees would've been aghast. Now that you mention it, it is interesting how Boot Camp came out so soon after the hacked kit. Maybe it was Apple that offered the $10000 using shifty go betweens so that they could release boot camp without the cry of blasphemy from the disciples. Nah. Good thing I'm not a conspiracy theorists.
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post #120 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrisar View Post

My 2cents? They didn't test it well and found out about this reception issue something like a week before the keynote, foxconn producing the ip4 like mad. Too late to reengineer the antenna. And so, we'll sell the bumper with the phone, trying to cover their error in a marketing opportunity.

Do you have any evidence to support you accusation? Or do you just like to flap against something that you never really intended to purchase in the first place?

I apologize for being so direct. But I just feel that somebody who says he is a Apple supporter comes here and spends his first half dozen or so posts telling us how deceiving Apple is, must be a troll.

But then, this is AppleInsider, which judging by all the Apple bashers of late, particularly by so many of the new members, could be renamed to Troller Haven. Haven't posted for awhile, but it does seem that all the guys that were banned a couple of months ago have snuck back.

P.S. I doubt you have 2 sense. IMO.
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AppleInsider › Forums › Mobile › iPhone › Android struggling to mimic iPhone's pay-to-own marketplace?