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Church or the world?

post #1 of 71
Thread Starter 
If there is one thing that really makes me sick it is when Church emulates the world and seems to mock God.

View and discuss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5y5O...eature=related

don't miss this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVP_q...eature=related

Shame on the "modern" "Church".

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #2 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

If there is one thing that really makes me sick it is when Church emulates the world and seems to mock God.

View and discuss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5y5O...eature=related

don't miss this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVP_q...eature=related

Shame on the "modern" "Church".

Fellows

Truly sad. And there are so many examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw0GlrLCf4Y&NR=1

If the message you have is not enough to draw the people that you feel you have to drop to these tactics, then you are missing the point of the message. Of course to these people it is all a numbers game. How many did we "save" and how much did we take in the offering plate.

NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #3 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Truly sad.

If the message you have is not enough to draw the people that you feel you have to drop to these tactics, then you are missing the point of the message.

Exactly Exactly Exactly!

Seems many Churches are indeed more of an ego trip for the pastor and run like a typical business in America.

Shameful.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #4 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

If there is one thing that really makes me sick it is when Church emulates the world and seems to mock God.

View and discuss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5y5O...eature=related

don't miss this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVP_q...eature=related

Shame on the "modern" "Church".

Fellows

I don't get it. What's your problem with this Fellows

Is it rock music in a church context or the type of rock music ? I mean do you think it is Satanic or something or do you just think people should be singing hymns?

When I was a kid for a few years my parents didn't have a church and hundreds of people would travel around in camper vans - hippies basically - having 'services' wherever they felt like, outside or in people's houses. Was kind of fun.

They were all rockers and that was what the music was - much heavier than what you have posted there in some cases.

This guy singing here at this link was around a lot....maybe you need to listen to him instead of these pastors!

Why Should The Devil Have all The Good Music

These are some more views of the time...imo the church should get back there before it's too late.

Hollywood Free Paper

Jesus Movement
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #5 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

If there is one thing that really makes me sick it is when Church emulates the world and seems to mock God.

Perspective here Fellowship; music within the Church, together with what you cite, hurts nobody. Focus instead upon the real injustice in the world - stoning of women in Iran - for example... That is where your outrage should rest.
post #6 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Perspective here Fellowship; music within the Church, together with what you cite, hurts nobody. Focus instead upon the real injustice in the world - stoning of women in Iran - for example... That is where your outrage should rest.

I think you should do Fellows the respect of starting a separate thread if you really feel strongly about the fate of Iranian women.

I don't believe you do as it happens...they are the same ones you would not care in the least if they died in some US or Israeli attack which is more or less imminent.

But as I say...we can discuss this when you start your new thread, I am only prepared to discuss Fellows thread here....seems only fair.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #7 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think you should do Fellows the respect of starting a separate thread if you really feel strongly about the fate of Iranian women.

You raise a valid point but in fairness I was not trying to derail or thread jack this post merely to illustrate perspective; which coincidentally was the first word of my prior post. All too often the Christian faith is attacked over minutiae (incidental issues) which I find Fellows follows in his point... If Fellows provides a bit more of his own validation to his point being one worth condemnation of the Church perhaps that would help, but as is there are larger fish here worth condemning in religion; case in point the abuse of women I cited. His condemnation of "shame," i.e., :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Shame on the "modern" "Church".

just fails to rise to other religions that have far more to apologize for, and greater impact upon the world in a negative way. Thus, the issues are sort of linked.
post #8 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

but as is there are larger fish here worth condemning.........

Perhaps if your own personal study was more focussed on Scriptural teaching - either in a Church context or not - you might yourself be aware of the core teaching of Luke 6:37 regarding all forms of condemnation.

Quote:
Judge not, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #9 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

If there is one thing that really makes me sick it is... Church

Fixed it for you

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #10 of 71
... never mind.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #11 of 71
Fine, in all seriousness, please keep the church devoid of fun and relevance to today's youth. Please.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #12 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

You raise a valid point but in fairness I was not trying to derail or thread jack this post merely to illustrate perspective; which coincidentally was the first word of my prior post.

Where's that thread you were going to start?

I know you have no knowledge of the subject but it can take this long to Google something can it? There are plenty of hate-sites and propaganda right-wing efforts out there...easy to find.

Do you need tips?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #13 of 71
Fingers drum on desks.
Endless waits as wisdom runs.
Stupidity rules the night.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Fingers drum on desks.
Endless waits as wisdom runs.
Stupidity rules the night.

Are you surprised? Fortunately none of these extreme individuals are representive of the bulk of what's out there. Well the Tea Baggers possibly.......

But I sure as hell wouldn't want to be associated with that group.

Ps. Don't worry Fellows I wasn't talking about you.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #15 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Fine, in all seriousness, please keep the church devoid of fun and relevance to today's youth. Please.

So church should focus on being fun for the youth?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #16 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

So church should focus on being fun for the youth?

Fellows

I think he means he doesn't want that because then Christianity would be more 'successful'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #17 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't get it. What's your problem with this Fellows

Is it rock music in a church context or the type of rock music ? I mean do you think it is Satanic or something or do you just think people should be singing hymns?

In the video links I provided you may notice the music in no shape or form is worship music. No praise what so ever.

I have no problem with hippies with a guitar singing for the Lord.

Two different things. Hopefully that helps to clear up my opening post position.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #18 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think he means he doesn't want that because then Christianity would be more 'successful'.

But if all Churches do is replace sound teaching with entertainment at what point is this considered a success?

I fail to see the wisdom in this.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #19 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

In the video links I provided you may notice the music in no shape or form is worship music. No praise what so ever.

I have no problem with hippies with a guitar singing for the Lord.

Two different things. Hopefully that helps to clear up my opening post position.

Fellows

Yes...I understood that more or less.

It raises another point though....why is 'worship' or 'praise' such an integral part of the Christian experience?

Many other religions do not have this component and theologically it is not necessary at all. I also do not believe anyone can provide a scriptural example of the disciples being taught it or actually doing it (please no-one say 'speaking in tongues').
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #20 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

But if all Churches do is replace sound teaching with entertainment at what point is this considered a success?

I fail to see the wisdom in this.

Fellows

Well it would be for BR - he wants religion to be eradicated.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #21 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes...I understood that more or less.

It raises another point though....why is 'worship' or 'praise' such an integral part of the Christian experience?

Many other religions do not have this component and theologically it is not necessary at all. I also do not believe anyone can provide a scriptural example of the disciples being taught it or actually doing it (please no-one say 'speaking in tongues').

Keep in mind I have my ideas as to where society in general has strayed. I happen to suspect that today the average American is more self-centered than ever (exceptions are all over the place mind you) and want things just the way they want it. If they go to Starbucks they want a certain number of pumps exactly of syrup in their latte at a certain temperature etc etc. They want gadgets and people to serve them. Pedicures and iPhones provide a self-centered fulfilment at a given moment in time. This service or that toy can please for a moment.

If this is true and I think it is easily observable in today's American culture why not then should self-centered (as opposed to selfless) youth and older folks as well for that matter not want the same from Church. Their music the way they want it even if it has nothing to do with our Lord. After all it is all about me! me! me! right?

This is where I start to get "sick" if you please. When the selfish culture (youth or old) start to make Church a place to be entertained I think that is selfish, empty and fruitless. Worship and Praise are not for us rather for the Lord.

It really is that simple

I see the society of contemporary America trying to get into the "modern Church" as I called it and attempting to reshape it to be a vending machine where they get what they want from it. Not the message of how can they can worship God or serve others but how can the so called "Church" serve them.

Just more darned selfishness.

If Jesus taught anything it is not to be selfish.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #22 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It raises another point though....why is 'worship' or 'praise' such an integral part of the Christian experience?

Many other religions do not have this component....



I am not aware of a single religion - outside the Christian faith - that does not incorporate elements of 'worship' or 'praise' as a function of its practice so you'll have to work harder understanding religion. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Taoism incorporate 'worship' or 'praise' and indeed even neopagan religious faiths, Druidism and Witchcraft, involve 'worship' or 'praise' rituals.
post #23 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well it would be for BR - he wants religion to be eradicated.

No, I know where he was coming from. I was adding my questions however for valid reasons.

No matter what BR would have or not have the Church do for today's youth is immaterial as far as I am concerned. BR does not (if I read him correctly) have concern for the Church to make wise moves.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #24 of 71
And that's a mighty big assumption there that Churches provide sound teaching in the first place. I mean, this coming from the person who started the ID vs Evolution thread. ID is nothing more than the weakest of the weak "god of the gaps" arguments.

I suppose I should also stop trying to make learning fun for my students, too. Every example should be boring and to the point with objects A and B interacting with each other in the most bland and sterile ways possible. No more submarine adventures, see-saws, sky diving, or anything else that might captivate my students' imaginations. LET THE PHYSICS SPEAK FOR ITSELF!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #25 of 71
Also, how's the big J doing with helping out with that oil spill? Clearly he's pissed at the lack of praise in modern churches.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #26 of 71
Fiiiine, I'll give a response without going off on a tangent. Fellows, do you approve of any songs in Church? Do you approve of interesting sermons that only tangentially deal with god but give advice on how people should live their lives?

If you said yes to either of those questions above, you are OK with entertainment. It's just a form of entertainment that you grew up with and are used to. Rock music, like it or not, can contain messages in lyrics and attract a wider audience. And there are enough nutty musicians out there who specifcally craft their music in praise of their fictitious lord. Crying for the Big J and being overwhelmed by the rock music in his name is not an entirely uncommon event.

Christian rock music is just plain old good marketing. It's no different than black revival churches singing enthusiastically for their god. Now, I'm sure there are some folks that just put out the rock music to make money. But come on, super duper mega churches are all in it for the money anyway.

But again, by all means, disconnect from the youth and end the ridiculous devotion to a tired old desert god. Please, finally put Yahweh to rest on the shelf with Zeus and Odin.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #27 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And that's a mighty big assumption there that Churches provide sound teaching in the first place. I mean, this coming from the person who started the ID vs Evolution thread. ID is nothing more than the weakest of the weak "god of the gaps" arguments.

I suppose I should also stop trying to make learning fun for my students, too. Every example should be boring and to the point with objects A and B interacting with each other in the most bland and sterile ways possible. No more submarine adventures, see-saws, sky diving, or anything else that might captivate my students' imaginations. LET THE PHYSICS SPEAK FOR ITSELF!

Insults aside BR,

I am not the Grinch who stole Christmas looking down on the community of loving and happy citizens with joy in their Hearts wishing to remove all fun and joy as you so (cartoonishly) seem to imply in your arguments in this thread.

I also think learning should be fun as you suggest. What I question is just how over the top to the props in a Church need to be to make a point of learning.

Do Churches as you see them need Motorcycles racing across the stage / platform as a prop to make some kind of point so that the people in attendance that day can "learn with fun" more so?

Do you need your college professor to bring in motorcycles so that you can learn something while having "Fun"

Perhapse props a little less over the top are actually needed to make a point.

Eh? No? or in your case (who the hell cares)

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #28 of 71
See my post just above, but yes, Churches probably need that to stay relevant. In a less tongue in cheek response, ya, motorcycles are pretty over the top. However, those pastors coming up with these shows would probably say they are inspired by their god to spread the word in any way they can.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #29 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

See my post just above, but yes, Churches probably need that to stay relevant. In a less tongue in cheek response, ya, motorcycles are pretty over the top. However, those pastors coming up with these shows would probably say they are inspired by their god to spread the word in any way they can.

Let me say this.

If these kinds of Churches insist on the over the top what have you methods to make a point of some kind or another. If they want to entertain in their relevant and unique ways for the youth of today yada yada yada then so be it.

I don't like it so much. These methods make "me" sick but I am not going to get in the way of their methods.

I hear some around me say things like "I love my Church" and it is for superficial reasons let me assure you and I think to myself... Their Church is an Idol and they worship it instead of the Lord.

I think personally this kind of thing is widespread and quite frankly misguided.

Just my 2 cents.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #30 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post



I am not aware of a single religion - outside the Christian faith - that does not incorporate elements of 'worship' or 'praise' as a function of its practice so you'll have to work harder understanding religion. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Taoism incorporate 'worship' or 'praise' and indeed even neopagan religious faiths, Druidism and Witchcraft, involve 'worship' or 'praise' rituals.

Let's take the two with which I have a degree of personal experience: Witchcraft and Islam.

Please give examples of the 'worship' elements. It is possible I missed them....

Also you could give an example from Daoism too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Keep in mind I have my ideas as to where society in general has strayed. I happen to suspect that today the average American is more self-centered than ever (exceptions are all over the place mind you) and want things just the way they want it. If they go to Starbucks they want a certain number of pumps exactly of syrup in their latte at a certain temperature etc etc. They want gadgets and people to serve them. Pedicures and iPhones provide a self-centered fulfilment at a given moment in time. This service or that toy can please for a moment.

I agree with this 100% - well...90 maybe...not sure it is a new development, possibly things have been like this a long time. I agree it is now 'acceptable' and risen to the status of a virtue.

This is the major problem in society actually. It is one of the reasons why Islam (say) is aa fast growing religion - because it somehow draws a line between such things like Christianity used to but no longer does... people actually deep down WANT the old certainties and values I think.

Quote:
If this is true and I think it is easily observable in today's American culture why not then should self-centered (as opposed to selfless) youth and older folks as well for that matter not want the same from Church. Their music the way they want it even if it has nothing to do with our Lord. After all it is all about me! me! me! right?

I agree there....if they do not get it from the Church they will look elsewhere for it. That's fine by me but I can see how you might feel the Church needs to address it...as it does in order to survive.

Essentially the bottom line is that the secular West is in crisis - and by pandering to it and accepting it the Church is in crisis too.

Quote:
This is where I start to get "sick" if you please. When the selfish culture (youth or old) start to make Church a place to be entertained I think that is selfish, empty and fruitless. Worship and Praise are not for us rather for the Lord.

Well..I can't say about that not being partial to going to Church myself.

I would say though that unless the Church is 'real' and tells the 'truth' then it will die.

Of course our definition of those terms may vary!

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #31 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Let's take the two with which I have a degree of personal experience: Witchcraft and Islam.

Please give examples of the 'worship' elements. It is possible I missed them....

Link for the former...
Link for the latter...

Not only were both easy to find on-line, there were literally hundreds of examples. What precisely are you trying to prove? All modern religions involve elements of "worship" and "praise" elements/rituals to include Witchcraft and Islam. For the latter, have you ever heard of Mecca and Medina and the pilgrimage of worship?
post #32 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Link for the former...
Link for the latter...

Not only were both easy to find on-line, there were literally hundreds of examples. What precisely are you trying to prove? All modern religions involve elements of "worship" and "praise" elements/rituals to include Witchcraft and Islam. For the latter, have you ever heard of Mecca and Medina and the pilgrimage of worship?

Umm...easy to find in the sense you perhaps typed the words 'witchcraft' and 'Islam' separately into a search engine and clocked one of the first links but unfortunately you would also need to reference the definition of 'worship'.

Let's deal with them briefly and simply.

1) Witchcraft. Witchcraft is not Satanism. Satanism is essentially a Christian sect. Although Wicca DOES have some worship elements Wicca is not witchcraft either.

Witchcraft is essentially the construction of various spells and need not postulate any form of divinity. In the form I most am familiar with Chaos Magic then the belief system is secondary to the spell construction and is INVENTED by the practitioner. I have never experienced an element of worship and was involved in such a coven for 10 years.

2) Your link for Islam says this:

A mosque is a building used for worship and prayer.

Actually it is used for prayer and community related activities. And prayer in the sense of the 5 ritual prayers - not in the sense of 'praise'.

In Islam prayer is a series of physical positions rather than a direct supplication or address.

So...you're ...err....wrong....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #33 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


Essentially the bottom line is that the secular West is in crisis - and by pandering to it and accepting it the Church is in crisis too.

That is not too far away from the truth I would just about have to agree.

selflessness and serving others has been replaced by entertainment and being served. Having fun above all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn9kt...eature=related

And this clip from last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Ezs...eature=related

Summer camp venue for Fellowship Church.

Ed Young asks viewers on his television show to send in a check for $$$ one million US$

The Church charges $600 per youth to attend this "fun" "entertaining" "camp"

Would Jesus recognize what is happening to yuppie suburban culture in America today?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #34 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

That is not too far away from the truth I would just about have to agree.

selflessness and serving others has been replaced by entertainment and being served. Having fun above all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn9kt...eature=related

And this clip from last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Ezs...eature=related

Summer camp venue for Fellowship Church.

Ed Young asks viewers on his television show to send in a check for $$$ one million US$

The Church charges $600 per youth to attend this "fun" "entertaining" "camp"

Would Jesus recognize what is happening to yuppie suburban culture in America today?

Fellows

I've had the idea for a long time that if Jesus came back today and saw how the majority of churches "worship" him, we'd see a repeat of the moneychangers-in-the-temple scene.
eye
bee
BEE
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eye
bee
BEE
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post #35 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerLurker View Post

I've had the idea for a long time that if Jesus came back today and saw how the majority of churches "worship" him, we'd see a repeat of the moneychangers-in-the-temple scene.

Speaking of the moneychangers-in-the-temple scene:

Look at this link and watch the video clip attatched within it. Then tell me if it appears as if fellowship church and it's pastor is concerned with the word of God or power, money, coolness, etc.

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2...-to-tyler.html

Church or the world?

You tell me.

Fellowship Church is by no means the only "Church" that is like this.


I for one don't endorse the actions taken by some who allegedly speak in the name of the Lord and live as ed young does.

Pray for him, his wife, their family and the church members who attend his "shows" and "retreats".

This is why I left this place YEARS ago.

His sheep know his voice and I just don't think this sounds like his voice if you catch my drift.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #36 of 71
Fellows,

Just thought I would share a bit. I used to attend church quite regularly and was well involved with the youth at our local church. I haven't stepped foot back into that building since they blindsided the youth pastor and didn't renew his contract because he was doing his job too well.

By that I mean the youth group was the largest and most involved it had ever been but there was a problem of course.

See those youth are loud, and rowdy and skateboad in the parking lot sometimes and heavens to be, some of them were even brought to the church after having been counseled to while in bad home circumstances or in juvenile hall. This seemed to conflict with where the next retreat was going to be who would be going to play golf.

So the guy, who was a great youth minister, was let go.

I've done some home churches and smaller churches but you won't see me around a large church and certainly not a megachurch.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

Reply
post #37 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Fellows,

Just thought I would share a bit. I used to attend church quite regularly and was well involved with the youth at our local church. I haven't stepped foot back into that building since they blindsided the youth pastor and didn't renew his contract because he was doing his job too well.

By that I mean the youth group was the largest and most involved it had ever been but there was a problem of course.

See those youth are loud, and rowdy and skateboad in the parking lot sometimes and heavens to be, some of them were even brought to the church after having been counseled to while in bad home circumstances or in juvenile hall. This seemed to conflict with where the next retreat was going to be who would be going to play golf.

So the guy, who was a great youth minister, was let go.

I've done some home churches and smaller churches but you won't see me around a large church and certainly not a megachurch.

I hear you. It is sad when real work is let go so that superficial "country club" activities don't get distrubed.

Thanks for sharing!
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #38 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Speaking of the moneychangers-in-the-temple scene:

Look at this link and watch the video clip attatched within it. Then tell me if it appears as if fellowship church and it's pastor is concerned with the word of God or power, money, coolness, etc.

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2...-to-tyler.html

Church or the world?

You tell me.

Fellowship Church is by no means the only "Church" that is like this.


I for one don't endorse the actions taken by some who allegedly speak in the name of the Lord and live as ed young does.

Pray for him, his wife, their family and the church members who attend his "shows" and "retreats".

This is why I left this place YEARS ago.

His sheep know his voice and I just don't think this sounds like his voice if you catch my drift.

Fellows

I did not hear that you had left Fellowship Church. Sorry to hear that things were not right there. It is difficult to find a place of fellowship where the church can gather and not have it end up being about the money, or the programs... The good news is, the church is not the building. Never has been, and it never will be.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #39 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I did not hear that you had left Fellowship Church. Sorry to hear that things were not right there. It is difficult to find a place of fellowship where the church can gather and not have it end up being about the money, or the programs... The good news is, the church is not the building. Never has been, and it never will be.

God Blessed me there during a season. Then with time things began to get out of balance in a big way and my wife and I knew we had to find another Church home.

I believe God deserves all the Glory! It is not about some huge mega church that thinks it is hip, fun, relevant and cool.

It is all about God's Glory. Serve your neighbor. Thanks be to God and God alone.

Enjoy this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBdKV...eature=related

This one if you like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRIV...eature=related

She has soul I tell you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCI3TbFELtA

Praise be to God.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #40 of 71
God's Love by Bad Religion

Strikin' at mental apparitions
Like a drunk on a vacant street
Silently beset by the hands of time
Indelicate in its fury

An aberrant crack as skeletons yield
To unrelenting gravity
While viruses prowl for helpless victims
Who succumb rapidly

Tell me
Tell me where is the love?
In a careless creation
When there's no above
There's no justice
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of sufferin'
It seems we all endure
And what I'm frightened of
Is that they call it, God's love

When twisted torment, make believe
There's a truth and we all submit
Believe my eyes, my brain replies
To all that they interpret

So tell me
Tell me where is the love?
In a careless creation
When there's no above
There's no justice
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of sufferin'
It seems we all endure
And what I'm frightened of
Is that they call it, God's love

I know there's no reason for alarm
But who needs perspective
When it comes to pain and harm
We can change our minds
There's a better prize

But first, you've got to tell me
Tell me where is the love?
In a careless creation
When there's no above
There's no justice
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of sufferin'
It seems we all endure
And what I'm frightened of
Is that they call it, God's love
They call it God's love
My pain is God's love

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
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