or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Church or the world?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Church or the world? - Page 2

post #41 of 71
Thread Starter 
Many turn their backs on God. I am talking about all sinners including some who consider themselves men and women of God.

The thing is.. God loves us all despite our failings, our issues and our sin.

The world offers many quick fixes to grasp the attention of man yet offers nothing of true meaning.

God's Glory transcends all..

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #42 of 71
And what I'm frightened of
Is that they call it, God's love

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #43 of 71
i am the strange hero of hunger by me, billy Childish

i am the strange hero of hunger
my girlfriend lives
on the other side of the world
and
has
started
reading
crime and punishment
by Fyodor Dostoevsky

naturally I have no heros
i am my heros
i am my brothers
and sisters
i feel myself joined by the soul
with all buti
my hart sings with every brave endevor
with the strange wings of impossible butterflys
with every rock that breaths life into the world

i stand shoulder to shoulder with
all denouncers of meaness
i honour spirit and faith

and I uphold the glorious amiture
i am in love with desperate men
with desperate hands
walking in 2nd hand shoes
searching for god
and
hearing god
and hating god
i am a desperate man buckled with fear

i am a desperate man who demands to be listend to
who demands to connect
i am a desperate man who denounces the dullness of
money

and status
i am a desperate man will not bow down to acolayed or
success
i am a desperate man who loves the simplicity of painting
and hates gallarys and white walls and the dealers in art
who loves unreasonableness
and hot headedness
who loves contradiction
hates publishing houses
and
also I am Vincent Van Gogh
Hiroshige
and every living breathing artist
who dares to draw god
on this planet
post #44 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And what I'm frightened of
Is that they call it, God's love

Maybe it is.....your fear is YOUR problem.

I certainly don't relate to it and I don't think many other people do either. Why don't you let go of your fear? Why not live?

Seeing as it's Poetry Corner here, here's my contribution:

Omar Khayyam's Rubaiyat: XLVI:

And fear not lest Existence closing your
Account, and mine, should know the like no more;
The Eternal Saki from that Bowl has pour'd
Millions of Bubbles like us, and will pour.

That's Omar Khayyam - one of the religious idiots who were so irrational and unscientific that he developed the geometric method for solving cubic equations by intersecting a hyperbola with a circle, instigated calendar reform from his astronomical observations and proposed a heliocentric theory well before Copernicus.

And he was just a poet.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #45 of 71
Segovius still can't hold two seemingly contradictory but rather just nuanced thoughts in his mind at the same time it seems. Smart people can be religious. That's just a dumb aspect of their psyches. I'm familiar with the Rubaiyat.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

I still know that Quatrain by heart. His religious beliefs: idiotic. His other accomplishments: fucking amazing.

And no, Sego, fear is not my problem. It is disturbing that one can see all the suffering plaguing this planet and have the audacity to say that it is somehow god's love and god's plan.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #46 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Segovius still can't hold two seemingly contradictory but rather just nuanced thoughts in his mind at the same time it seems. Smart people can be religious. That's just a dumb aspect of their psyches. I'm familiar with the Rubaiyat.

Not really true - I know many smart religious people and many moronic ones. Is obvious. Hell, even the same person can be smart and stupid at the same time.

I was thinking more of the favourite atheist theme that "nothing good can come from religion"

Quote:
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

Yes, is up there definitely. Fitzgerald was not the best guy to deal with the material though imo.

Quote:
I still know that Quatrain by heart. His religious beliefs: idiotic. His other accomplishments: fucking amazing.

What you don't seem to realize is that in his case the two went hand in hand - as they did for all medieval Hispano-Muslim thinkers.

It is because of his religious beliefs - directly and indirectly - that he made his discoveries. Or, put another way, he would not have been able to make them in a contemporary Christian or secular context.

Quote:
And no, Sego, fear is not my problem. It is disturbing that one can see all the suffering plaguing this planet and have the audacity to say that it is somehow god's love and god's plan.

Well, you mention fear a lot and admit to being scared so I was wondering.

I agree with the last sentence, the idea that it is 'God's plan' is moronic and offensive - but it is also offensive (ie an insult to the intelligence) to suggest this is the ONLY view a religious person can take.

Khayyam for example did not believe it on the evidence of his poetry.

As ever, my position is far closer to yours than it is to virtually any religious believer but we differ when you make sweeping generalizations like this.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #47 of 71
Let's not deal in hypotheticals. You can't prove that Khayaam couldn't produce his works of art or make his scientific and mathematical discoveries without religion.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #48 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Let's not deal in hypotheticals. You can't prove that Khayaam couldn't produce his works of art or make his scientific and mathematical discoveries without religion.

I didn't say that. I said he made them because of his religion - Islam - and would not have done so had he been brought up in a Christian context at the time we are discussing.

This IS provable as it happens and I say it not to put Islam over Christianity but rather to show that the atheist view that religion quashes science does not apply across the board.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #49 of 71
Would not have done so. Hypotheticals. You can maybe...MAYBE...show some evidence that would prove your former point. But you cannot prove the latter. It's just a fucking hypothetical.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #50 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Would not have done so. Hypotheticals. You can maybe...MAYBE...show some evidence that would prove your former point. But you cannot prove the latter. It's just a fucking hypothetical.

Not at all.

His theories were based on Greek scientific manuscripts and pre-Islamic non-religious material: the sort of thing that the Church destroyed routinely or left to fall into neglect.

That is why the West was in the Dark ages at the time we are talking about.

Khayyam could not have made his discoveries without the Greek material and this material would not exist were it not for the Islamic States in Spain rescuing it and developing massive libraries to preserve it. The same applies to Baghdad and Persia where Khayyam was from.

So he PROBABLY would not have made his advances without the earlier material.

How's that?

PS: Is it time for another poem? Maybe Rumi's outlining of evolutionary theory in verse in the 13th century?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #51 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Many turn their backs on God. I am talking about all sinners including some who consider themselves men and women of God.

Why do you think we are all so bad Fellows?

As you know, I was brought up with a mindset similar to yours.

When I first started meeting people who were not religious when I was a teenager I expected them to be all evil and bad. Wallowing in sin as it were.

It took a long time to realize people are basically good. I had been lied to.

If anything is a sin - to do that to a child is. And that's the core belief.

Quote:
The thing is.. God loves us all despite our failings, our issues and our sin.

There it is again.

Would you say that to your daughter? "Daddy loves you despite your horrible x,y,z"

I think it's wrong.

Quote:
The world offers many quick fixes to grasp the attention of man yet offers nothing of true meaning.

Very true. Or nearly true.

There is very little of meaning. But some people do actually work all their lives to help others, write, create from the heart, live to make a difference unselfishly, make scientific discoveries.

You should jot denigrate these things.

Quote:
God's Glory transcends all.

This may well be true (though I would prefer "God IS all") but it is not the point - the point (imo) is: how many people who say this actually SEE it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #52 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why do you think we are all so bad Fellows?

I don't think "we are all so bad" as you say. I think some "turn their backs on God" as I said. Do you understand when I say that simple statement or does it sound like I am saying that "we are all so bad" ? when I say that?

Quote:
As you know, I was brought up with a mindset similar to yours.

When I first started meeting people who were not religious when I was a teenager I expected them to be all evil and bad. Wallowing in sin as it were.

It took a long time to realize people are basically good. I had been lied to.

I don't think any more or less of a believer / non-believer etc. I don't actually care to use the term religious. I see it that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Believer or not. It is not a matter of good guys and non believers = bad guys. Did you really think that I thought that those who are not believers are "bad people"? because I don't.

Quote:
regarding: "The thing is.. God loves us all despite our failings, our issues and our sin."
Would you say that to your daughter?

I would. What is wrong with saying you love her no matter any of her shortcomings in life? failures and or sins? Unconditional love is not bad at all. And to let her know this is actually good so there is no doubt.

Quote:
I think it's wrong.

You do? I sure do not.



Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #53 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I don't think "we are all so bad" as you say. I think some turn their backs on God as I said. Do you understand when I say that simple statement or does it sound like I am saying that "we are all so bad" ? when I say that?

Fellows: if you believe we are all sinners then you MUST believe we are all 'that bad'.

We will go to hell for eternity for being sinners. How can you get to 'not that bad' from that? I would say it could not be any worse at all....so yes, it does sound like that I'm afraid.

Besides, if you truly believe in the current US Christian paradigm then you must believe this. Or you'd be some other sort of vague religionist like me

Quote:
I don't think any more or less of a believer / non-believer etc. I don't actually care to use the term religious. I see it that we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Believer or not. It is not a matter of good guys and non believers = bad guys. Did you really think that I thought that those who are not believers are "bad people"? because I don't.

I respect the dropping of the terms and I even accept that we 'fall short of the glory of God' in the sense of Paul's 'missing the mark' but this is not sin imo - certainly not an offence punishable by eternal hellfire.

We must by definition fall short of God. We are human. Why punish that?

Quote:
I would. What is wrong with saying you love her no matter any of her shortcomings in life? failures and or sins? Unconditional love is not bad at all. And to let her know this is actually good so there is no doubt.

Well...I don't have the right to comment on your own personal business but for me, to do such a thing to my daughter would be shocking and something deeply immoral and possibly destructive.

You see the word 'sin' is weighted. It is in no way an equivalence of our daughter's possible failures.

Failures help you grow...they are even good in that respect and to be encouraged...you can never become a top athlete for example without losing.

Sin is different....or the concept of it is. I do not actually think sin exists but if it did then it would not be the sort of thing that is an equivalence of failing in sports being a 'good thing' because it makes you stronger.

No fundie would ever say it's good you had all that sex before marriage as it made you stronger. Because they see sex as a sin. Whereas it is a normal part of life that sick minds have poisoned - and that's just an example at random, there are hundreds.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #54 of 71
Thread Starter 
I don't think people are bad I think sin is bad.

So you have a problem with hell and sex within the marriage? Am I reading into this correctly because I don't want to misrepresent what you are saying.

I can respect that you have problems with these things. I don't have a problem with the message of Jesus.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #55 of 71
Thread Starter 
I can't believe I forgot to reply to the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

We will go to hell for eternity for being sinners.

Jesus paid the price for the sins of humanity.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #56 of 71
Evidence?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #57 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I can't believe I forgot to reply to the following:

Jesus paid the price for the sins of humanity.

Fellows

I have a problem with that. Not one of 'belief' but one of logic and bad theology.

If I was God, and if I could rise again after 3 days and that is all I had to do to 'save humanity' (though they would not really be saved of course as the vast majority would still go to hell) then I would do it too.

EVERYONE WOULD.

In effect is not paying the price at all. How can it be? Jesus lost nothing, he was back alive three days later and people STILL GO TO HELL.

It sounds nice but it is delusional. It is a fiction. And it is an obscenity when foisted on to people who sincerely ARE looking for genuine answers.

Now I need to deal with BR.

FFS stop with this 'evidence' shit.

At least take it on its own terms (like I just did) and disprove it from there.

Don't be lazy. You may think you don't need to actually stoop to answer because your position is so much more whatever but it ain't necessarily so. Earn it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #58 of 71
Assertion: Jesus died for our sins.

Claimant: Fellows

The burden of proof rests with the person making the assertion. It does NOT rest with everyone else to disprove the assertion.

Fellows, support your assertion.

Sego, stop it with the backward bs anti-logic that it is somehow the responsibility of everyone else to disprove people's wacky assertions.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #59 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Assertion: Jesus died for our sins.

Claimant: Fellows

The burden of proof rests with the person making the assertion. It does NOT rest with everyone else to disprove the assertion.

Fellows, support your assertion.

Sego, stop it with the backward bs anti-logic that it is somehow the responsibility of everyone else to disprove people's wacky assertions.

I just disproved it though - however much you want to pay lip-service to it in the final analysis it's down to me to do the dirty work while you sit in an ivory tower trying to be superior while people like me are in the trenches fixing it for you.

Poor show.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #60 of 71
Well since we're into poetry...

Invictus by William Ernest Henley

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


AND a response...

The Soul's Captain by Orson F. Whitney

Art thou in truth?
Then what of him who bought thee with his blood?
Who plunged into devouring seas
And snatched thee from the flood?

Who bore for all our fallen race
What none but him could bear-
The God who died that man might live
And endless glory share?

Of what avail thy vaunted strength
Apart from his vast might?
Pray that his light may pierce the gloom
That thou mayest see aright.

Men are as bubbles on the wave,
As leaves upon the tree,
Thou, captain of thy soul! Forsooth,
Who gave that place to thee?

Free will is thine-free agency,
To wield for right or wrong;
But thou must answer unto him
To whom all souls belong.

Bend to the dust that “head unbowed,”
Small part of life’s great whole,
And see in him and him alone,
The captain of thy soul.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #61 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I just disproved it though - however much you want to pay lip-service to it in the final analysis it's down to me to do the dirty work while you sit in an ivory tower trying to be superior while people like me are in the trenches fixing it for you.

Poor show.

It has nothing to do with being in an ivory tower or displaying a poor show. Nobody in any other fucking arena of life gets to make wild assed assertions without giving some inkling of support (or at least HAVING some if asked). Not at your job. Not with your significant other. Not in science. Nowhere. Except for religion because ooooh it's so personal and sacred and fucking nonsense.

If you make a claim, back that shit up. Fellows claimed Jesus died for our sins. Well, it's up to him to BACK THAT SHIT UP!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #62 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


If I was God

Stop right there.. You're not God.

Quote:
, and if I could rise again after 3 days and that is all I had to do to 'save humanity' (though they would not really be saved of course as the vast majority would still go to hell) then I would do it too.

EVERYONE WOULD.

I don't think you understand the pain and suffering Jesus took upon himself for our sake. For you to claim you would do it too does not hold a lot of weight to me when I don't believe that you truly grasp the degree of pain and suffering endured.

Quote:
It sounds nice but it is delusional. It is a fiction.

You are free and entitled to this view (in my opinion thanks be to the God and Lord you deny) He allows you this freedom to deny Him.

Quote:
And it is an obscenity when foisted on to people who sincerely ARE looking for genuine answers.

Jesus the messiah is an obscenity? Or that his followers believe he is the messiah is the obscenity? or both?

To me there is no obscenity here. People are free to deny Jesus if they wish. Go on and live their lives as athiests, agnostics or any other belief they wish.

I think yanking out the word "obscenity" is a wee bit harsh seg. with all due respect..



Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #63 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It has nothing to do with being in an ivory tower or displaying a poor show. Nobody in any other fucking arena of life gets to make wild assed assertions without giving some inkling of support (or at least HAVING some if asked). Not at your job. Not with your significant other. Not in science. Nowhere. Except for religion because ooooh it's so personal and sacred and fucking nonsense.

If you make a claim, back that shit up. Fellows claimed Jesus died for our sins. Well, it's up to him to BACK THAT SHIT UP!

Alright here is my reply.

I have no way to convey to you in a way that you will accept that Jesus is Lord or that he paid for your sin. I proclaim these things but I can't prove these things. I realize that I can not prove these things and I sleep well at night knowing what I can't prove. I am fine with my beliefs and knowing the boundaries of my sharing of my beliefs. Not all will subscribe or buy into what I believe and that is the beauty of being your own agent. You are an individual with the power to choose and discern what it is that you find to be true and not true.

I understand and respect this reality.

So at the end of the day I can still proclaim what it is that I believe to be true and you can proclaim what it is that you believe to be true.

This is NOT science we are dealing here. This is a matter of faith.

You don't have to buy into what I proclaim BR.

With all God's Best,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #64 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Stop right there.. You're not God.

Imo we are all God Fellows.

Quote:
I have said, Ye are gods; And all of you are children of the most High.

Psalms 82:6

Quote:
I don't think you understand the pain and suffering Jesus took upon himself for our sake. For you to claim you would do it too does not hold a lot of weight to me when I don't believe that you truly grasp the degree of pain and suffering endured.

I may not but some people do. For an example a British artist was crucified in exactly the same manner.

Link

Quote:
nothing, he said, had prepared him for the agony of having five-inch nails driven through his hands. "I had wanted to think of something really beautiful - my girlfriend, for instance - but the pain was so overwhelming. It was far worse than I imagined.

"As 10 or 12 men started to raise the cross to an upright position my eyes filled with tears as I drifted in and out of consciousness."

Mr Horsley, 39, said that the subsequent rush of endorphins produced by his body to combat the pain "felt like a warm bath within".

That last line btw is interesting - neither you nor I know how the body's painkillers will ameliorate the effect. But it is probably a bad experience.

My point is that PAIN is suffered and has been suffered by billions of humans. Equivalent pain. It is not about pain.

Jesus sacrifice was about death and was an intentional reference to the Abraham and Isaac story - with of course the small difference that Isaac would not have been coming back and so that was a REAL sacrifice.

Quote:
You are free and entitled to this view (in my opinion thanks be to the God and Lord you deny) He allows you this freedom to deny Him.

Glossing over the fact that I do not believe this because it is irrational (though not for the reasons BR would sate) it is BAD THEOLOGY even from within the Christian perspective.

How can God allow sin? Or are you doing a BR-stylee sidestep and saying he doesn't but merely allows the choice?

LIke if I put a glass of water and a glass of colourless, odourless poison in front of you so you can't know which is which and then lock you in a room with no food and water.

When you die from choosing the posion It is 'none of my fault....I am so sad but you had to have free will'.

If my earlier comment about obscenity was a bit strong here it might not be strong enough.

Quote:
Jesus the messiah is an obscenity? Or that his followers believe he is the messiah is the obscenity? or both?

Neither of those are obscenities imo. I was referring to the propagation of the false belief in the Vicarious Atonement.

Quote:
To me there is no obscenity here. People are free to deny Jesus if they wish. Go on and live their lives as athiests, agnostics or any other belief they wish.

It's not that easy though is it? It's not even true.

They are not free to do so.....tribes in the Amazon were never free to do so, the continent of Africa is now riddle with problems because Christianity believed they were not free to follow their indigenous beliefs.

The entire Muslim world is not 'free to believe what they like' right now and have had to pass laws stopping the US propagandists from forcing them to change beliefs.

Quote:
I think yanking out the word "obscenity" is a wee bit harsh seg. with all due respect..

Ok..I retract that one but it is very very bad theology.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #65 of 71
I think one of my favourite poems - more so even than Khayyam - is "The Kasidah" of Haji Abdu El-Yezdi

It's written as an Arabic panegyric and in many ways it echoes my own views on religion and even BR might agree with some stanzas. It is religious but anti-religious and imo explains the meaning of life in a way similar to Khayyam.

Here's some verses:

Cease, Man, to mourn, to weep, to wail;
Enjoy thy shining hour of sun;
We dance along Death's icy brink,
But is the dance less full of fun?

How shall the Shown pretend to ken
Aught of the Showman or the Show?
Why meanly bargain to believe,
Which only means thou ne'er canst know?

There is no Good, there is no Bad;
These be the whims of mortal will:
What works me weal that calI I "good,"
What harms and hurts I hold as "ill:'

They change with place, they shift with race;
And, in the veriest span of Time,
Each Vice has won a Virtue's crown;
All good was banned as Sin or Crime:

All Faith is false, all Faith is true:
Truth is the shattered mirror strown
In myriad bits; while each believes
His little bit the whole to own.

There is no Heaven, there is no Hell;
These be the dreams of baby brains;
Tools of the wily Fetisheer,
To 'fright the fools his cunning blinds.


Pluck the old woman from thy breast:
Be stout in woe, be stark in weal;
Do good for Good is good to do:
Spurn bribe of Heav’en and threat of Hell.

Do what thy manhood bids thee do,
from none but self expect applause;
He noblest lives and noblest dies
who makes and keeps his self-made laws.

All other Life is living Death,
a world where none but Phantoms dwell,
A breath, a wind, a sound, a voice,
a tinkling of the camel-bell.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #66 of 71
I believe we are all spirit children of God and therefore have the potential to be like God. This is possible only through our acceptance and application of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives, which redeems us from both spiritual and physical death.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #67 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I believe we are all spirit children of God and therefore have the potential to be like God. This is possible only through our acceptance and application of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our lives, which redeems us from both spiritual and physical death.

And yet time after time after time after time, we see that these same 'accepters of atonement' are the actual embodiment of evil.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #68 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

And yet time after time after time after time, we see that these same 'accepters of atonement' are the actual embodiment of evil.

all people are sinners seg.

accepters of atonement or not.

For you to sort out only Christians as the bad guys is selective to say the least.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #69 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


I was referring to the propagation of the false belief in the Vicarious Atonement.

Correct me if I am wrong but this "Vicarious Atonement" is the very cornerstone of the Christian faith?

And in your opinion it is an obscenity foisted on people looking for solutions to real problems.

btw I accept your retraction of the word obscenity and the included explanation of (bad theology) as you see it.

If this is your view you are entitled to this view.

I don't subscribe to this view but I don't dislike you for holding these views.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #70 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

all people are sinners seg.

accepters of atonement or not.

For you to sort out only Christians as the bad guys is selective to say the least.

You see Fellows that's where I have a problem.... I believe in God, I'm not an atheist God help us and I can even see beauty and sophistication in aspects of the Christian schemata when viewed in a certain light.

But to say we are all sinners....well....I can't buy into that. Why be so self-denying? So undermining? Humanity is a glorious thing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Correct me if I am wrong but this "Vicarious Atonement" is the very cornerstone of the Christian faith?

Appears to be. Wrongly imo.

I do not accept it is or was the cornerstone of Christ's teaching.

Quote:
And in your opinion it is an obscenity foisted on people looking for solutions to real problems.

That's exactly my point. The obscenity is in offering FALSE or NO solutions to real problems.

Quote:
btw I accept your retraction of the word obscenity and the included explanation of (bad theology) as you see it.

Ok! Thanks!!

Quote:
If this is your view you are entitled to this view.

Actually I'm not...no-one is 'entitled' to anything. We are all equals and there is no-ine to bestow such rights that is above us.

Quote:
I don't subscribe to this view but I don't dislike you for holding these views.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #71 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You see Fellows that's where I have a problem.... I believe in God, I'm not an atheist God help us and I can even see beauty and sophistication in aspects of the Christian schemata when viewed in a certain light.

Ok I hear you.
Quote:
But to say we are all sinners....well....I can't buy into that. Why be so self-denying? So undermining? Humanity is a glorious thing....

Again fair enough, I also agree that humanity is a glorious thing but sin or "crime" or what ever you might want to call it when a person murders, steals, commits adultery, envy, lust, etc. etc. etc. are in my opinion sins which don't do a whole lot but to rob people of their glorious lives. They end up hurting the ones they loved. They hurt themselves. They hurt their childrens lives. They end up in jail for theft for example. They end up divorced because of cheating on their spouse for example then the children of this broken marriage end up suffering from this sin.

It is but loss to sin and but gain to repent from sin. And to deny sin is foolishness in my opinion.

In my life my uncle was murdered and I consider that a sin and let me say that this particular sin robbed me of yet more time with my uncle. During this time my father went through a period of deep depression as this was his brother.

The devil comes to cheat, steal and destroy and rob us of joy. Sin does just that in every case.

So ignore sin all you want if the word sin bothers you so much.

But sin I would argue strongly is real brother.

God will help us all get through sin and forgive us of sin. God will and does heal and restore,, (THAT) is the glory of God at play.

Humanity is more glorious the less we sin. But sin we do at times.

Sin we do indeed.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Church or the world?