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Apple deletes discussion threads about Consumer Reports and iPhone 4 - Page 4

post #121 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddych View Post

Apple has every right to delete threads pointing to the obviously biased consumer reports article. The article cites results from tests that in no way mimic real life situations. No one who actually owns an iPhone experiences these symptoms. Anyone who says otherwise is either a troll or an android plant.

am not a troll or a plant, but did have serious signal problems when held in my left hand, which is how I use the phone with apps, but not calls. I bought a bumper, and its pretty much cured the problem, I had intended to get a bumper anyway, but its still £25.00 that I had to spend to fix the problem.

Calling everyone who has an issue a troll or a plant is not the answer. If it had bothered me that much I would have returned the phone, as it was I made the choice to spend some more and fix it myself.

I don't however think that there is a justification for a class action that just the lawyers trying it on.
post #122 of 169
Im also already since quite some time disgusted by the fact that Apple deletes forum threads. They also do it if you report certain bugs. Then again, this is not an Apple problem on its own. Many news sites do it regularily, many many news sites have even stopped their comment section altogether (see also CNN), or they have banned the comments sofar away from the articles that once you reach the comment section, you cant remember what you wanted to bitch about.

I think its time for a website that can comment ANY website, and which cant be switched off. Like in a Frame would be good. Then we can read the world through our opinions and noone can shut us off.

Re Steve Jobs, I do think he has integrity and I do think that in this case he will simply need to conceed, that its all a big SNAFU and Apple will need to pay out the dosh to get it all fixed to everyones satisfaction.

I think he will do that because his reputation, is the only thing he really has to loose, and loosing that would be far more costly in any sense, than loosing a few hundred million dollars to fix the iPhone4.

After all, hes not like Bill, whos reputation has been lost for a long time, on the other hand, hes making up for lost ground by spending all the money me made on screwing consumers wrecklessly without any consideration for them, on poor kids who need medical aid and education. One extra point to Bill there.

Steve; just fix the thing; yes this will cost money but hey who doesnt make mistakes?

Were all just human.
post #123 of 169
What is inexplicable to me is why apple won't insulate the cables that form the antenna on the whole and in the affected lower left join. I can of course wager that this might degrade the signal, but won't a bumper case have a similar degrading effect? Any of the technically inclined might want to explain this for me?
post #124 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybrook View Post

It is the highest rated phone even with the reception problem taken into account. Can't get any better than that without a Recommended rating. CR chooses not to recommend when, in their opinion, there is a problem that needs to be fixed. .

This just goes to show how irrelevant their criteria can be.

They take a product which they can't recommend, run their tests, and get the highest rating.

What sort of tests are these again?
post #125 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by freelander51 View Post

No company has EVER gained by silencing their opponent.


Apple's PR department needs to hire a crisis management specialist. That is the underlying problem here.
post #126 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapguru View Post

The iPhone 4 has absolutely no problem, nothing!

Greeting

G


Correct. It is a software issue that has been present since the first iPhone. It will be fixed in due course.
post #127 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by grking View Post

reality check.

...

Nor is libel or slander considered free speech. Nor is pornography.

Back to high school government class for you.



Pornography is just about the best example of free speech that exists. Ask Larry Flynt.
post #128 of 169

That's exactly what I like about AI board. There's always some guy, who tries to think rationally right in the heart of common hysteria and ignorance orgy.

No, coating can not noticeably weaken antenna reception capabilities. Neither can Apple's bumper. And all other phone antennae all over the world somehow survive underneath 2 mm thickness of plastic cases.

There's no satisfactory explanation of the necessity to expose iPhone antenna metal other than following the industrial design guidelines pushed to the limits.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #129 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post


That's exactly what I like about AI board. There's always some guy, who tries to think rationally right in the heart of common hysteria and ignorance orgy.

No, coating can not noticeably weaken antenna reception capabilities. Neither can Apple's bumper. And all other phone antennae all over the world somehow survive underneath 2 mm thickness of phone plastic cases.

There's no satisfactory explanation of the necessity of exposing iPhone antenna other than following the industrial design guidelines pushed to the limits.

I see. Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense. Surely then they must have looked at some option for coating the metal exterior frame of the phone to prevent attenuation by user contact, I wonder why they did not find any sufficiently feasible solution. This is a very strange matter indeed with this phone because we all know th talent that went into this. I fail to understand how so many signals engineers could have missed this potential problem, so I would think they didn't, but informed the design team. Even so I still fail to believe a scenario where the design team pushed them and ignored their red flag outright.

So all in all my imagination deserts me as to what might have happened.

In terms of a potential fix, which would include a small redesign, why don't they just put the joints of the antennae in the corners of the phone? Hardly anyone touches the very corner so it seems problem solved? Doesn't it? If they can fit them thus that is.

Btw, Ivan, aren't there health concerns by exposing the antennae to the user and he or she touching them. I am very sensitive to sar issues in mobile phones, an area where I think the industry has been very dishonest about potential health threats, apple included.
post #130 of 169
I have had NO problems with reception or dropped calls on my Iphone 4G.
Lawyers, Google, Consumer Reports are all out to make a fast buck on this.
post #131 of 169
much as I want a 4G and I've been apple based for 20+ years, my gut told me that a radically new design would inevitably have some glitches. While Apple probably tests new products far more than anyone out there, they can't anticipate all of the real world problems, especially given the veil of secrecy that surrounds new products or redesigns

For what my two cents is worth, this might have been avoided had they wrapped the new product in really boring package, perhaps even to make it look like a 1st gen iPhone; 95% of the people who'd pick it up would be fooled by the disguise (unlike the Gizmodo twerps) and try to return the 'old' phone to its rightful owner.

The clever redesign of the antenna is to be lauded but maybe it needed more testing before the launch, perhaps even 6 months of testing to allow for incorporation of changes and retesting
post #132 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdw1234 View Post

These guys are deadly. Don't cross them... they're nutty.

Yes... I am deadly... do not cross me
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post #133 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKRick View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll

Does Apple really believe that ditching forums posts will stop this story from circulating, or that the censorship won't become another story in itself?

Creepier by the day....

As many on this thread have already stated, Apple's Support Forums clearly state the following, "Search for an answer, post your question, or answer other users' questions in the Apple Discussions community." This is not a forum to state your opinion, discuss CR reports or bash a product and tell others not to buy/upgrade. This is a place to politely ask a question and see if you can get any resolution from others. Obviously you people don't read anything before you spout off. They had full right and obligation to delete these posts IMO.

Clue: Of course Apple can do whatever they want in their forums. It's about how desperate they look when they're doing it, all the while denying they have a hardware problem.
post #134 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by technohermit View Post

I have an iPhone 4 without these symptoms. Unfortunately for you, I know 4 other people with iPhone 4, and none---not a single one---have the death grip problem. I had a bad radio in my 3G when it came out, but luckily I was able to get a replacement. It seems this is either a bad run out of the factory, or another issue...but not a design flaw as you have incorrectly asserted. If it were, surely every phone would exhibit the symptoms.

Apple does not respond to these things until they know what the real problem is, and know exactly how to deliver a solid solution. Give it a little time, and I'm sure you'll be satisfied. The demand for this phone is unlike any other, but as it dies down, and Apple has some in stock, I'm sure they would gladly replace it for you.

You mean, um ... like the 2008 Apple Time Capsule that they recently acknowledged? So, what about the people who had one of these lemons go out on them 6 months ago - and rushed out and bought a new wireless router - because they may actually NEED them .... as in ... oh .... today?

Sorry, putting your head in the sand for an unspecified period of time and ignoring the problem is NOT the way to solve the problem.
post #135 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Ok, you guys forgot your /sarcasm tag or you are creeping me out.

I was thinking the same thing.

This stuff had been somewhat entertaining to watch though; an organization has something good to say about Apple/Jobs/iPhone they are a fine, reputable, trusted outfit. Should that same org say someting even slightly negative about Apple/Jobs/iPhone then there's an agenda, they're a rag, can't be trusted. Not long ago CR was the cat's meow when they came out with a customer satisfaction survey that rated AT&T low.

Hilarious!
post #136 of 169
Remember the problem with iPhone 3Gs battery draining problems last year and similar ranting about that issue? This one seems to be no different except in one respect. In order to identify the source of the problem (besides being Apple) those having a problem with their phone were asked to submit the serial number of the unit. This allowed Apple to narrow down the build date of the phone and, subsequently, identify the problem. I haven't seen that suggested on any forum since the iPhone4 came out. Is AI interested in setting up a link to which these numbers can be sent?
post #137 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyAppleUser View Post

I have had NO problems with reception or dropped calls on my Iphone 4G.
Lawyers, Google, Consumer Reports are all out to make a fast buck on this.

Jeez ... I don't have cancer; therefore there is no such thing as cancer.

Here's a brief introduction into analog RF communications. If you are somewhat close to a tower, you may take a tin snips and cut off your antenna. You may even be able to rip the wires off of the PCB and STILL get great reception. You may even be able to lift the PCB traces off of the board, right up to the leads of the chip. There may be enough signal such that the internal traces on the chip are sufficient to makea phone call.

Now, move that phone a half-mile away from the tower - and now the phone may be useless. If you have a tower close by ... oh, goody for you. Just make sure you never, ever travel further than some distance from a tower. Because when you do, you will eat crow and say "Golly, my phone doesn't work ... I wonder why?".

A hardware design flaw is a design flaw .. you phone is affected, you are just not in an area where you realize this. Humans compromise primarily of two types of impedance; depending upon the water content of your skin, you may be 1,000 ohms to 100,000 ohms of resistance; but you are also a capacitor generally ranging from 10-40 pF. So, by virtue of being a human, you "de-tune" the antenna when you get within millimeters of touching it - just from your impedance. This is a design flaw.

If the antenna were behind a layer of glass, plastic or wood - and that material was just a few millimeters thick - then your impedance influence would be minized. This is why the bumpers seem to help - it puts some distance between you and the antenna.
post #138 of 169
I upgraded last week from a 3Gs to the new iPhone 4 despite reading all these horror stories about poor signal issues etc etc and so far I havent had any problems with my iPhone 4 in regards to signal and/or losing reception. I have held the phone in my left hand and even gripped unnaturally tight and still have a full signal.

Now I am in the UK on the O2 network and was wondering if anyone else on O2 has had this problem?? I know 2 other people on the same network BOTH brought theirs on launch day and neither have had any problems. So I am beginning to wonder if this Signal issue is only on the AT&T Network? Correct me if I am wrong though.

But so far I am 99.9% happy with my new iPhone, it loses 0.1% cause its super flat back means it slides of any slightly curved surface, like a Sofa arm rest which my previous iPhone didn't
post #139 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

This just goes to show how irrelevant their criteria can be.

They take a product which they can't recommend, run their tests, and get the highest rating.

What sort of tests are these again?

How hard is it to understand? Everything about the iPhone 4 is top-notch, with the exception of one niggling problem that can actually affect, you know, PHONE CALLS. You expect a phone with that kind of problem, albeit the only problem, to receive a recommendation? Fix the problem, it will be retested and no doubt receive CRs highest recommendation.
post #140 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by RawBeard View Post

I upgraded last week from a 3Gs to the new iPhone 4 despite reading all these horror stories about poor signal issues etc etc and so far I havent had any problems with my iPhone 4 in regards to signal and/or losing reception. I have held the phone in my left hand and even gripped unnaturally tight and still have a full signal.

Now I am in the UK on the O2 network and was wondering if anyone else on O2 has had this problem?? I know 2 other people on the same network BOTH brought theirs on launch day and neither have had any problems. So I am beginning to wonder if this Signal issue is only on the AT&T Network? Correct me if I am wrong though.

But so far I am 99.9% happy with my new iPhone, it loses 0.1% cause its super flat back means it slides of any slightly curved surface, like a Sofa arm rest which my previous iPhone didn't

Others saying they were on O2 have reported the problem. Not an issue exclusive to the AT&T network.
post #141 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

Pornography is just about the best example of free speech that exists. Ask Larry Flynt.

Some people use "pornography" broadly and may actually mean "child pornography" which is not, of course, protected speech. Hopefully that's what the guy meant.
post #142 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by secretapple View Post

I'd like to know how you demonstrated this to an Apple employee it an AT&T employee. Both stores have AT&T repeaters in them, giving you perfect reception in either place. If the reception is good, you cannot make the "death grip" work. Sorry, you just can't. Period. Sometimes I wonder if the people complaining about iPhone actually own one. My guess is many do not.

Your post is wrong about so many things, it's hard to know where to start. I have owned an iPhone since June 23rd. Actually, two. Apple swapped out the first one when I couldn't hold the phone in my left hand without dropping the signal and losing all voice and data communication. Unfortunately, the 2nd one works just as poorly.

And yes, you can drop the signal inside an AT&T store. I have done it, to the chagrin of the clerks there. No doubt you won't take me up on this, but come here to Medford, OR and I'll demonstrate it for you. And then I'll take you out for a nice, big, steaming plate of crow.
post #143 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

Correct. It is a software issue that has been present since the first iPhone. It will be fixed in due course.

No offense, but do you buy everything that Apple says, hook, line and sinker? You sound like you're from their (recently bumbling) PR department.

As many have logically shown, the proposed software fix is cosmetic in nature and will have no effect beyond trying to pass the blame elsewhere.
post #144 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post


So all in all my imagination deserts me as to what might have happened.



There is a software glitch. It has been there since the first iPhone. It is now being remedied.
post #145 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

I see. Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense. Surely then they must have looked at some option for coating the metal exterior frame of the phone to prevent attenuation by user contact, I wonder why they did not find any sufficiently feasible solution. This is a very strange matter indeed with this phone because we all know th talent that went into this. I fail to understand how so many signals engineers could have missed this potential problem, so I would think they didn't, but informed the design team. Even so I still fail to believe a scenario where the design team pushed them and ignored their red flag outright.

So all in all my imagination deserts me as to what might have happened.

This reasoning is very close to my theory of what actually happened. The issue was probably not seen as serious enough, while no one had the courage to stand the temptation of the case design elegancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

In terms of a potential fix, which would include a small redesign, why don't they just put the joints of the antennae in the corners of the phone? Hardly anyone touches the very corner so it seems problem solved? Doesn't it? If they can fit them thus that is.

It's hardware. Any modifications to manufacturing process and to used materials take very long to design, implement, get all necessary approvals and to finally switch factories. IMO, they may venture to apply some insulating coating on antennae, but still it will take a considerable amount of time.
Quick software fix would always be appreciated. But I doubt there's one being really feasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

Btw, Ivan, aren't there health concerns by exposing the antennae to the user and he or she touching them. I am very sensitive to sar issues in mobile phones, an area where I think the industry has been very dishonest about potential health threats, apple included.

Allergic people may be somewhat concerned.
Besides that, as you've already figured it out for yourself, there's pretty much nothing with iPhone 4 to be scared of more, than with any other cellular phones; 2 mm of dielectric casing do not make that big difference. Official reports on iPhone 4's SAR levels have been published by FCC. iPhone 4 looks better, than 3GS.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #146 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

They were off-topic on a support forum. The moderators did the right thing.

Exactly. However, the stupidity, whining and exaggerations continue ad nauseam.
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post #147 of 169
Ha ha - it's 1984... Apple is now The Man.

Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
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Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
15" Matte MacBook Pro: 2.66Ghz i7, 8GB RAM, GT330m 512MB, 512GB SSD

iPhone 5 Black 32GB

iPad 3rd Generation, 32GB

Mac Mini Core2Duo 2.26ghz,...

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post #148 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

However, the way Apple deals with the issue reminds us of:
-broken (exploding?) iPhones
-watercooling iMacs
Anyone remembers that? I do.



Sources, please?
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post #149 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

Ha ha - it's 1984... Apple is now The Man.

I really wish people who have never read 1984 and have absolutely no idea what the book is about would stop using it as an analogy for anything they don't like. For one thing, it trivializes the issues actually raised in 1984. But, mostly, in this instance, it utterly and completely mischaracterizes Apple's actions. I know ignorance gives a certain freedom to be a fool, but it would really be best to resist the temptation and talk about what you know, not what you don't.
post #150 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

Ha ha - it's 1984... Apple is now The Man.

Yes. The way they decide what we can run on our phone and how we can hold it, etc. Kind of weird.

Remember back when Apple/Mac was about choice. Windows was bad because you did not have any choice. Run IE or else. Etc. My how the times have changed.
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post #151 of 169
They deleted a post of mine after I complained about them pulling apps, from the app store. This is a free country but apperently Apple doesn't think so
post #152 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltWater View Post

For me Apple no More, I am moving to Ubuntu, after all Snow Leopard promess the fastest OS in the World, but instead of that I have the same old speed, while Ubuntu 10.04LTS is just amazing fast, ok there's some apps that only Mac has, but with Apple only working on iPhone, with no Mac OS X relevant evolution, iTunes is just making me scream, I am forced to give my credit card so I can download album covers, or I just can't play flac files easily, that's too much, it only syncs well with iPod or iPhone, I don't have any, I prefer other brand for that, but I own a Mac, but it just don't work anymore as it should work, and now Apple tries to shut the mouth of people!??? I have a damn bluetooth problem since Snow Leopard came out, that only works with the magic mouse, everything else and bluetooth crash, to say little, very strange. I waited for a year for the damn Java 6 on Snow Leopard 32 bits, and flash optimization as it seems is Apple fault because it just released source code to Adobe so it can optimize with Mac OS Core APIs, so wake up people. This Apple is rotten!!! It's NOT The same Apple that once said machines should be beautiful inside as outside, and OS X will be the most advanced system in the world, because today it is NOT!

My sentiments are pretty much said in your little rant here. Apple a while ago lost its charm on me, and I see the company going more towards the gadgets (iPhone, iPad, iPod...) than I do seeing them focus on the computers. They used to make decent machines. They used to make a decent OS. Now its all about the label... and it makes me sad. If the old Apple comes back (pre 2004 in my mind), and owns up to its own mistakes instead of thinking its too big for them, then I will consider going back. Till then, I'll stick with my Linux distros.

To be honest, the ONLY thing I miss is Garageband (but with a lot of work, you can get something pretty close). There really aren't any alternatives out there in either Linux or Windows. Ubuntu is a great OS, and can be streamlined if you know what you are doing. I'd suggest checking out Ubuntu Studio. Also, for video editing, check out Kdenlive. The biggest suggestion I'd say with linux, is be patient when setting it up. But once its going, its VERY nice. Welcome! Here, you can do what you want!
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post #153 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I really wish people who have never read 1984 and have absolutely no idea what the book is about would stop using it as an analogy for anything they don't like. For one thing, it trivializes the issues actually raised in 1984. But, mostly, in this instance, it utterly and completely mischaracterizes Apple's actions. I know ignorance gives a certain freedom to be a fool, but it would really be best to resist the temptation and talk about what you know, not what you don't.

Thje reference isn't to the book, but to Apple's "1984" commercial. Or at least I assume that the OP was doing so.
post #154 of 169
@Ivan thanks for the useful and intelligent posting.
post #155 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by StLBluesFan View Post

Thje reference isn't to the book, but to Apple's "1984" commercial. Or at least I assume that the OP was doing so.

Well, even that reference would represent a misunderstanding of the issues and be incorrect.
post #156 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, even that reference would represent a misunderstanding of the issues and be incorrect.

Not really. The commercial was breaking free of "the Man," the OP was joking that Apple has now become "the Man" they railed against in that commercial. Nothing more than that.
post #157 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

@Ivan thanks for the useful and intelligent posting.

A question . . . I don't twit/tweet/whatever though realize "@" is used in usernames there. Why has the use of "@" moved to forums and such when referring to previous posters? Seems totally unnecessary. Just a carryover from Twitter and such?
post #158 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove View Post

@Ivan thanks for the useful and intelligent posting.

My pleasure.

P.S. Here's the popular extract of FCC's measurements and comparisons:

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People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #159 of 169
The bottom line is that most of those threads are filled with whiners who don't even own an iPhone - much like threads at AI. Given the posting profile of the threads, it appears likely that some of the posts are pure FUD stirred up by Apple's competition.

So why should Apple continue to support the competitor's FUD?
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post #160 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrisar View Post

I Was a fine supporter of Apple since the beginning

Bought from them
Apple 2
Laserwriter
Mac
Mac SE II
iMac
4 iPods
iPod Touch
2 iPhones

Bought their stock at 9

Sold it at 270 after SJ told it's not the phone that's the problem but that the consumer is the problem.

And I owned 25,000,000,000 shares of Microsoft stock and sold it when they released Vista. And I'm the one who told Google to go into search. And Santa Clause asks my opinion on tough 'naughty or nice' cases.

Isn't the Internet wonderful? You can claim anything you wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post

Clue: Of course Apple can do whatever they want in their forums. It's about how desperate they look when they're doing it, all the while denying they have a hardware problem.

Do you have proof that there's a hardware problem? Or are you just spewing the same FUD you've heard from elsewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StLBluesFan View Post

How hard is it to understand? Everything about the iPhone 4 is top-notch, with the exception of one niggling problem that can actually affect, you know, PHONE CALLS. You expect a phone with that kind of problem, albeit the only problem, to receive a recommendation? Fix the problem, it will be retested and no doubt receive CRs highest recommendation.

That is not correct. Both CR and Anand state that the iPhone is better than other phones for phone calls. It's just not as much better if you hold it in a certain way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I really wish people who have never read 1984 and have absolutely no idea what the book is about would stop using it as an analogy for anything they don't like. For one thing, it trivializes the issues actually raised in 1984. But, mostly, in this instance, it utterly and completely mischaracterizes Apple's actions. I know ignorance gives a certain freedom to be a fool, but it would really be best to resist the temptation and talk about what you know, not what you don't.

Yes, but it's a good guide to which posts you can ignore because they're coming from ignorant twits. It's generally easy to sort out the posts from people who don't know what they're talking about, but that's one more clue to make it easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannybrook View Post

This is the kind of "reporting" that is nothing more than sensational pot stirring.

Dropping the "Recommended" rating is hardly the same thing as doing a 180 and advising consumers not to buy. It is the highest rated phone even with the reception problem taken into account. Can't get any better than that without a Recommended rating. CR chooses not to recommend when, in their opinion, there is a problem that needs to be fixed. If it was a 180, it would be near the bottom of the list. It is merely saying fix the antenna problem even though it is just slightly worse than most other phones.

I'd rather have an iPhone any day, and frankly I imagine most folks put theirs in a case of some sort, thus it will be a non-issue.

That's all true - but it doesn't give the Apple haters ammunition. I think Google, HTC, and RIM are actively stirring up trouble. Look at some of the post profiles of people here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

Sorry but a cheap Toyota vs any American auto in the sameprice classis going to get spanked by Toyota. You have to spend $45,000 or more for a decent US auto and even then, your 45,000 is getting you a $25k car.

That's absolute nonsense. My current car is a Lexus. The car before that was a Buick Enclave. Before that, a different Lexus. Before that, an Acura. The Buick is every bit as good a car as the Lexus before and after it (in fact, it was better than the first Lexus I owned). Characterization of the Enclave as a "25 K car" is purely an indication that you don't know what you're talking about.

American car quality has, in general, improved a great deal. Several of the top rated cars are now American and the best American cars are certainly in the same ballpark as Honda or Toyota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post

Apple's forums have been known to remove negative topics for any of their products well before this. This has little to do with the CR in particular though it is the point of the article.

That's true. Apple has always tried to limit their support forums to support questions and weed out the whiners and FUDsters. Why is it news (other than the Android fans are up in arms because they're losing one place to spread their FUD)?
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