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Every week Apple doesn't act on iPhone 4 antenna could cost $200M - Page 4

post #121 of 221
Yet another clueless analyst pontificating as if they knew exactly what the problem was. No one has yet to show that this supposed "antenna-bridging" is actually occuring; CR's tests have been shown to be as worthless as all the others done by people who don't have any clue about antenna design. Everything I've read from people that understand this stuff says that the antenna bridging is not an issue, and there's no clear-cut explanation for what's going on. As they point out, a simple measure of antenna attenuation is meaningless, unless you know how that number translates to the ability of the phone to provide a good connection. 5db of attenuation could kill a call on one phone, while 20db does nothing on another. It is not a straight-forward, global, linear measurement of how well a phone will handle a call.

Meanwhile, we have mass hysteria of dropped calls that may or may not have anything to do with actual reception, and many reports that the iPhone 4's reception is actually much improved over previous models. Until all this gets sorted out, nobody can predict exactly what, if anything, Apple will have to do to rectify what may, or may not, actually be a problem.
post #122 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Seems like something that isn't a big deal, but why wouldn't you want it instead of not want it? It's a minor feature Apple decided the user didn't need.


Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.
post #123 of 221
It will be interesting to see if Apple delays the iPhone 4 release in international markets because of this problem. If they do, it may be a sign that the problem is bigger than Apple is letting on.
post #124 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.

Oh, I see you are back, iLuv/tekstud.
post #125 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

Apple advertised, and Stevie stated that you can hold the iPhone anyway you want.


Wrong. That was the iPad.

You probably are disappointed because the iPhone is not magical, even though Apple never claimed that it was.
post #126 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

Your statement regarding re-tuning the receiver is flawed - I am unaware of a digitally tunable capacitor. Digitally controlled resistors, yup. But there just aren't digitally controlled energy storage media in a microchip format (inductors or capacitors). Thus, you 'tune' your receiver in hardware and use software filters to further re-fine the tuning - but if you detune the antenna system by adding a variable 10-40 pF (human) load - I don't see how Apple can overcome this in firmware.


"Digitally Tuned Capacitor

A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE technology using UltraCMOS process and HaRP design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values."


I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.
post #127 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

Exactly. The user doesn't need it, and therefore Apple doesn't clog up the UX.

Well when I got my phone, I needed to see if it was a refurb. Turns out it's not, so I can list it properly on ebay when the time comes.
post #128 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by thespaz View Post

I got to thinking today... perhaps this whole mess actually is a software issue.

I read somewhere where someone suggested that maybe when you touch that part of the phone, it's actually making it MORE signal, not less, but the software screws up and makes the signal drop.

How hilarious would it be if Apple rolls out a software update that fixes the problem and reception is actually improved when you pick it up and have no more dropped calls.

If I recall correctly, Apple has been able to fix issues with their computers that a lot of people SWORE that it HAD TO BE HARDWARE with a software update. After all, software CONTROLS the hardware.

Am I right?

I'm not saying that this software update will solve the problem because I have just as much doubt as everyone else about it, but it would be interesting if they did in fact find something in the baseband that wasn't making the hardware act as it should.

I have a strong suspicion that you are right. I have a long history with Apple going back to 1978. If there is a choice between:

1) a hardware-only implementation
2) a software-only implementation
3) a hardware-modifiable-by-software implementation

Apple will choose 2) a software-only implementation, initially. Over time they may evolve to 3) a hardware-modifiable-by-software implementation.

Almost never, will Apple choose a 1) a hardware-only implementation.


The reasons for this are obvious:
-- they can fix problems (maybe even dropped calls)
-- they can add features

To illustrate, anecdotally:

Circa 1984-6, then Apple Employee Bill Atkinson, (MacPaint, HyperCard, etc.), was giving a demo of some graphics on the Mac (AIR, it was for software for a CCD camera).

Someone on the audience asked: Will Apple buy Amiga to get their graphics hardware?

Paraphrasing Bill's answer: "Why, we can do that in software!"


Consider that Apple is the oldest personal computer manufacturer still in existence; that they have released thousands of devices over the 34 years of their existence; that there have been very few product recalls (you could count the major ones on one hand).

I believe a lot of that is due to the way they integrate hardware and software-- so that fixes and enhancements can be made without changing the hardware!

Boom!

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
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post #129 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsm View Post

Hey Braniac...you would have to be living under a rock not to have heard about the antenna issue and the iP4. It has had massive media coverage since DAY ONE.

You know how ridiculous this statement is: "People are lining up to buy the phone because many are unaware of this issue." So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?/ OMG that is comedy gold. Are you related to Bagdad Bob?

I along with many mainstream business and tech journals are ridiculing CR for their seemingly incongruous position.

Keep on banginig the drum...all you will end up with is a sore arm!

Enjoy your Droid!!!

The statement about living under a rock is completely ridiculous and it shows when it comes to reality, it's you who's living under a rock.

Take my mom for example. She's a perfect example actually. From the first time she saw a commercial for facetime, she's been talking about getting a family plan and iphones for everyone. When would she have been told about this issue if I didn't tell her?

You simply don't get it. You think the iphone sells in mass numbers to a ton of tech savy geeks!?

BTW, when someone lines up to BUY a product, how are they going to know how the product works? "So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?" No, that's what you're saying, and you're saying it because you know it's stupid and doesn't reflect at all what I said. You know what a strawman argument is?

You're truly rediculous. Picking a fight with anyone who doesn't agree with you. At least this time you didn't start a new line with every sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DominoXML View Post

Can't You just admit that You overshooted the mark instead of presenting such a pseudo intellectual reasoning trying to point the finger to others?

It was out of poor taste, I'm sorry for laughing and not showing respect.
post #130 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

Damn, I wish I were employed by Google!! I'd have a nice office, a great campus and wouldn't live in the sticks where my job is located.

However, when I disable the 3G - the phone works as well as my co-worker's 3GS. So, a part of the puzzle is firmware (face detection, 3G degrading cell phone reception) - but the design flaw still exists. I'm using a case, and with the case the problem is essentially fixed - but the principle of the matter remains. The phone requires aftermarket accessories for it to function as advertised.

SO your bitching about the design while confirming the issue is in software...??? If it doesn't happen with 3G disabled is a problem with the radios handling of switching from 3G to edge. You've already established your in a marginal 3G coverage area. Apple never promised that the 4G would magically make more signal appear.

PS sales people must really love you. If you'd pay a restocking fee for a product that doesn't work and stay in a cellular contract when the area of primary use doesn't have signal you are what the industry referrers to as a biotch! You never pay a restock fee on a defective product and lack of coverage in the first month of the contact is the one universal get out of the contract for free card. JUST SAY NO!
post #131 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

I don't think it is a defect. I'm pretty sure Apple engineers have heard of attenuation and were aware of placing two antennas within contact of each other. These people aren't idiots. Let's see how the software update deals with it before we cry wolf.

You don't SERIOUSLY think the software update is gonna make up for bad antenna design do you? Wow! I want some of what you're smoking...
post #132 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

What Apple has discussed is a cosmetic change. But, I suspect that if "changing the bar display" was all the update did-- we would have already seen it.

We can only hope. But those who are claiming that Apple has said they are releasing a fix for the dropped call issue, they are mistaken. They have said no such thing.

If they are working on that "additional fix" aas you suggest, and if they slip it in under the radar and without comment or admission that the problem really ever existed, well, that's a dishonest tact that I wouldn't have expected from Apple.
post #133 of 221
Hmm... soooo... it costs more to take an iPhone return than it probably cost to make it, and this assumes that Apple will not recoup the investment by, you know, refurbishing that iPhone with any said repair and using it as a refurb sale or exchange unit?

Nice.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
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post #134 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

"Digitally Tuned Capacitor

A digitally tuned capacitor is a type of chip-form variable capacitor patented by Peregrine Semiconductor in the form of DuNE technology using UltraCMOS process and HaRP design innovation.[1]. The DuNE digitally tunable capacitor (DTC) chip contains five capacitors switched by MOSFETs that operate from a serial input bus with a 5-bit code providing 32 possible capacitor values."


I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.

NO, he hasn't. Quit spreading this myth.
post #135 of 221
They are the dumbest mathematical minds you could possibly ever meet.

Teaching Business Calculus to these twits back at my university days was quite entertaining.
post #136 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by StLBluesFan View Post

NO, he hasn't. Quit spreading this myth.

Pay no attention, SendMe is a well known troll who has posted here under many aliases and personas, and been banned multiple times. His current style matches that of a previous iLuv alias.
post #137 of 221
Hi,

Do you remember the Perrier case? of the Classic Coke one?

Both are examples of modern informational war.

And iPhone 4 is just the same: all competitors are so happy to have something to say against Apple.

Apart from technical facts, the fuss made around is just incredible.
post #138 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodar View Post

If this were a TV that dropped TV shows without warning whenever you entered the room; or a car that randomly stopped while being driven - would you expect anything other than a re-call and the produce repaired?

I paid an early termination fee to leave Verizon - that was my decision, based upon the belief that the 4th Generation iPhone would be a solid product. I then ordered my iPhone through AT&T, because Apple's website was woefully inadequate to handle the demand that the iPhone created.

Now, I have a phone that does not operate as advertized, it drops calls in areas where the reception is poor (ie. where I work). On the desk, it works fine; but if I dare to pick it up - the signal goes from 4 bars to No Signal.

I have since purchased a case, and disabling the 3G has given me improved reception - but this isn't what was advertized, and this is not what I was would think would be an acceptable product. If I try to return the product, I'm still out my early termination cost from Verizon (significant), a restocking fee from AT&T (minor, but irritating) and then will be forced into taking a phone I do NOT want (Apple 3GS) for the remainder of the 2 yr committment.

I see no reason why this was not discovered during testing, and I'm an engineer with over 25 yrs experience, working in R&D, Manufacturing and Testing. I find it very suspicious that Apple would say that this came as a surprise, this indicates that either Apple's official stance is to have no integrity and give an outright 'Lie' as their official stance; or they are horribly inept at product test. I don't believe that they are inept.

No one loves a liar.

Whoa there pardner...
You terminated service and went to AT&T coverage (with all of its accompanying shortcomings) without having had a friend with an iPhone test out coverage at your home first?
Your description proves nothing about the iPhone 4, at least the way you describe it.
For all you know, you'd be having the same issues with a 3GS.
post #139 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

I'd rather trust Steve. He's already told us that this can be optimized via software.

Apple never said anything of the sort. You just thought they did--and Apple hoped you'd come to that unfounded conclusion--because Apple reported they were "stunned" by a bars display bug just after people started to report a whacky signal attenuation problem with the iPhone 4. Apple never said a software fix for the bars was going to fix the signal attenuation problem.

As for this being a problem that Apple says goes all the way back to the original iPhone, if you google a bit, you'll see people reporting that Apple increased the number of bars displayed for the same signal strength, upon introduction of iPhone OS version 2.1 in 2008. Why should Apple be stunned now, when people were publicly harping on this 2 years ago? How do we know the bars displayed were artificially increased with the 2.1 update? Because Field Test Mode, which Apple omitted from iOS 4, clearly showed it.

If you're going to trust Steve, then you need to be very careful to listen to precisely what he says and doesn't say.

Demand Apple bring back Field Test Mode in the next iOS 4 update.
post #140 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjpoblam View Post

(I guess I haven't logged into Appleinsider for awhile. I thought I recalled a little more civilized debate than I'm seeing this time, but I fully expect someone to gripe at me for saying I don't see it now.) \

So what do you folks think? I was very interested in a CNet news article I saw yesterday in which was estimated an iPhone recall would cost $1.5 billion, versus the very puny cost of $29 per phone for a free case for current owners.

I was further interested in the analysis (quotes in the same CNet article) by Bernstein Research analyst Toni Sacconaghi regarding AAPL's "emerging pattern of hubris" and its effect on AAPL stock values. If you're interested, the CNet article is at http://is.gd/drMAz

Yes, I saw this morning also the article in which the results of the Consumer Reports study were challenged: http://is.gd/drNep

You think all this will, simply, blow over? Or is AAPL digging itself into a deep hole?

If you review Sacconaghi's articles, they tend to be anti Apple (while claiming to be objective).

In the CNET article, reporting on a possible recall, Sacconaghi takes the occasion to wander off topic to rehash a bunch of unrelated issues to he can criticize Apple-- a familiar pattern.

Quote:
Examining the longer-term consequences for Apple, Sacconaghi turned to "the emerging pattern of hubris that the company has displayed, which has increasingly pitted competitors (and regulators) against the company, and risks alienating customers over time."

As some examples, the analyst noted Apple's "limited disclosure practices, its attack on Adobe's Flash, its investigation into its lost iPhone prototype (which culminated in a reporter's home being searched while he was away and computers being removed), its restrictions on app development, and its ostensibly dismissive characterizations of the iPhone's antenna issues (i.e., phone needs to be held a different way; a software issue that affects the number of bars displayed)."

Sacconaghi further speculates that "these issues may, over time, begin to impact consumers' perceptions of Apple, undermining its enormous prevailing commercial success."



My opinion:

1) it is, likely, a hardware-related issue that can be resolved/mitigated with software

2) While unlikely, Apple will do a hardware recall/replace if it is necessary to fix the problem

3) Apple will stand behind its products and its customers-- they always have!


The issue will be successfully be resolved and Apple's reputation will be enhanced-- to the great disappointment of the "Chicken Littles" and nay-sayers.

.
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
"So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."
– Alan Kay –
Reply
post #141 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Then please stop lying. Problem solved.

If you're dissatisfied, just return it and buy something else. They're apparently never going to make you happy.

Of course, that assumes that you even own an iPhone. Given your posting history, it's far more likely that you've never bought one and never would, but you're simply doing what you're being paid by Google to do.

You know i was thinking exactly the same thing.

@Hodar. My iP4 is fine, no problems, works as it should. Swipe me off your list of dissatisfied customers.

As always though sympathy for those of you who are genuinely having issues with iP4.
A reputation is not built upon the restful domain of one's comfort zone; it is made out of stalwart exposition of your core beliefs, for all challenges to disprove them as irrelevant hubris.- Berp...
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A reputation is not built upon the restful domain of one's comfort zone; it is made out of stalwart exposition of your core beliefs, for all challenges to disprove them as irrelevant hubris.- Berp...
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post #142 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Pay no attention, SendMe is a well known troll who has posted here under many aliases and personas, and been banned multiple times. His current style matches that of a previous iLuv alias.

I was thinking the same thing. His 'pro' Apple comments are so over the top, I figured they must be a pretense.

"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. Sometimes it's both.

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post #143 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

The actual cost of creating a rubber case is more like in the 20 to 30 cent range.

Yes for molded rubber cases that could be the price. The bumpers are not this and cost most to make


I'm bored with this story. My phone works flawlessly and I'm satisfied with my purchases. It sucks that some people have legitimate gripes. It really sucks that people who's never used or touched the phone are chiming in with their 2 cents
post #144 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan83 View Post

I don't think it is a defect. I'm pretty sure Apple engineers have heard of attenuation and were aware of placing two antennas within contact of each other. These people aren't idiots. Let's see how the software update deals with it before we cry wolf.

I must say thart my iphone 4 is great, no signal issue at all, the bars are wanky but it wont drop a call anywhere in my house, the 3g dropped calls all the time. That said, if the software update doesnt work and comes after the first day ppl have had it for 30 days, there may be a legit case to sue, because u didnt return it in good faith that the issue was to be resolved with a software patch.
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post #145 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

The actual cost of creating a rubber case is more like in the 20 to 30 cent range.

Maybe. But the bumpers are not a 'rubber case'. They're considerably more complex than that - particularly trying to hold the tolerances with plastic materials isn't cheap.
post #146 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsm View Post

So you are saying peoples phones are working so well that they dont realize they arent working well?/ OMG that is comedy gold.



None of the haters make any sense at all.
post #147 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

The issue will be successfully be resolved and Apple's reputation will be enhanced-- to the great disappointment of the "Chicken Littles" and nay-sayers.

.

Apple's continued denial that the iPhone has a reception issue is the root of the disappoint of their customers, or potential customers.
post #148 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

So software could not be the problem?
It's a hardware issue if the hardware is actually the problem and it's a hardware defect if it cannot be solved with software.
If it can be fixed with software, then it is not a hardware defect.


And Apple has already identified the software issue, and is now perfecting the fix. They have told us this. It is not a matter of speculation.
post #149 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas View Post

I was thinking the same thing. His 'pro' Apple comments are so over the top, I figured they must be a pretense.

Yeah, and now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Apple's continued denial that the iPhone has a reception issue is the root of the disappoint of it's customers, or potential customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

And Apple has already identified the software issue, and is now perfecting the fix. They have told us this. It is not a matter of speculation.

... he's playing both sides of the fence.
post #150 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

And Apple has already identified the software issue, and is now perfecting the fix. They have told us this. It is not a matter of speculation.

Their software fix has nothing to do with fixing the reception issue. It only deals with changing the bars that are displayed.
post #151 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Yeah, and now...





... he's playing both sides of the fence.

What are you referring to when you quote me ?
post #152 of 221
So why are they assuming that the units being sold right now have any issue? The problem may have been corrected on newly manufactured devices. And why are they assuming that ALL devices are having problems now; I know that isn't true. There may be a run of 10,000 devices with the problem, and not all 1.7 Million at this point. Yes 10,000 seems like a lot, but it isn't going to cost them $200 million a day to correct.
post #153 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

Their software fix has nothing to do with fixing the reception issue. It only deals with changing the bars that are displayed.

If it were a reception issue, covering it up with a bumper would not correct it, it is an interference issue caused by a signal short with the WiFI antenna.
post #154 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1 View Post

What are you referring to when you quote me ?

I think it was pretty clear, tekstud.
post #155 of 221
The antenna design is a complete screw-up, only exceeded by Apple's unprofessional response.
post #156 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post

If it were a reception issue, covering it up with a bumper would not correct it, it is an interference issue caused by a signal short with the WiFI antenna.

Yes, it's attenuation of the signal when touching the lower left corner. It's a design flaw, because that spot is commonly covered by people when they naturally hold the phone. Which causes the reception issue. That is why I doubt software will fix the issue, but it's possible. But Apple's statement said the software fix was only changing the display bars. Not trying to negate the issue of touching the lower left cornet.
post #157 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

And Apple has already identified the software issue, and is now perfecting the fix. They have told us this. It is not a matter of speculation.

Show us where Apple says this will fix the death grip problem.
post #158 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by SendMe View Post

I'm sure the data is available to a proper technician, like Apple's Geniuses. There is no need for any end user to see Apple's data.

Please stop posting. Every one of your posts is a vapid Apple defense that makes incorrect claims with no backing data. Apple is not a religion and it is time for you to stop worshipping.
post #159 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

I think it was pretty clear, tekstud.

Uhhh, you need to stop making assumptions. Ski1 is the only user I have used on this forum. Just because you don't like my valid posts, is not reason to post wild accusations. You are the troll.
post #160 of 221
The AppleInsider report talks about Consumer Reports performing iPhone 4 testing inside a "radio frequency isolation chamber". But: the video on the CR's website does not show any such chamber: the testing we could see was in an old test bench lab, with metal electrical conduit on the walls, metal shelving, etc. Further, the testing we saw on their Rohdes & Schwarz test equipment was for power, not reception. While I know from painful experience that the reception problem and dropped calls are very real, we don't know exactly what CR tested - and they didn't take advantage of their website to explain their testing in any way, as is required in scientific procedures. (This is why professional testing companies look down on CR.)
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