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Israel Will Finally Cooperate, But Demands Immunity

post #1 of 81
Thread Starter 
<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156139&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">The Link</a>

Israel will not block the UN fact-finding commission on Jenin and will not ask to disqualify any of the appointed members, but will insist that anyone who testifies to the commission should be granted immunity from criminal prosecution on the basis of its findings, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres told UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan yesterday.

If such immunity is not granted, Peres said, Israel will not permit any Israeli to testify.


*snip*

Annan replied that Peres' requests seemed reasonable. ????

Now, I may be misreading this or something, but isn't this essentially "We'll cooperate, as long as we don't get in trouble for whatever you find."?

---

There's a bit of humor value in <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156145&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">this report</a>:

Quick make-shift trial in Arafat's besieged headquarters, doesn't mean anything in the scheme of things.
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post #2 of 81
It's means also that Israelians fear what UN can discover in Jenin.
post #3 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong><a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156139&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">The Link</a>

[b]Israel will not block the UN fact-finding commission on Jenin and will not ask to disqualify any of the appointed members, but will insist that anyone who testifies to the commission should be granted immunity from criminal prosecution on the basis of its findings, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres told UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan yesterday.

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

why don't you include the whole article ? instead of the bits that only suit you ? there's a far more complex issue here then you make it to be

Thats the full thing....

Israel accepts UN panel, but demands immunity for testifiers By Aluf Benn

Israel will not block the UN fact-finding commission on Jenin and will not ask to disqualify any of the appointed members, but will insist that anyone who testifies to the commission should be granted immunity from criminal prosecution on the basis of its findings, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres told UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan yesterday.

If such immunity is not granted, Peres said, Israel will not permit any Israeli to testify. Peres also asked that the committee's report be given to the sides for comment before it is submitted to Annan, and urged that experts in counter-terrorism and urban warfare be added to the panel. Annan replied that Peres' requests seemed reasonable.

Annan also met a legal delegation from Jerusalem yesterday at UN headquarters in New York. It was not clear last night whether the discussions, which began late, would end yesterday or continue today.

The delegation presented three main demands. The UN mission should concentrate only on Jenin; military and counter-terrorism experts should be added to look into the organizations that used the camp as a base for suicide bombings; and the report should present facts but no conclusions.

Annan partially acceded to the first two demands, and two more military advisers were added to the group yesterday. "It was decided that General [William] Nash will be assisted by two military staff officers and more experts will be brought on board as needed," UN spokesman Fred Eckhard said.

Nash, an American, is the only military expert on the panel. The names and nationalities of the two staff officers were not disclosed. But the secretary-general was quoted as telling colleagues that Israel could not dictate the outcome of the report and that "we won't just be counting bodies," diplomats said.

Israel had originally objected to the inclusion of Cornelio Sommaruga, a former president of the International Red Cross, on the panel, because Sommaruga had a history of anti-Semitic comments (once reportedly comparing the Jewish Star to the swastika). However, it has apparently decided to drop this objection. The fact-finding team, which is led by former Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari, is due to arrive in the region on Saturday.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon yesterday said he never saw the memorandum by an outside consultant that was the source of Israel's abrupt about-face on the committee.

The memo, written by a British expert in international law, Daniel Bethlehem, warned that the UN committee appeared to be aimed not at fact-finding, but at preparing war crimes indictments against Israelis. It was partly this memo which on Tuesday caused the cabinet to reverse its earlier decision to cooperate with the panel.

But Peres yesterday said the letter defining the committee's mandate - one of the factors that raised Bethlehem's, and Israel's, suspicions about its intentions - was actually only a draft prepared by Annan's aide, which the

But Peres yesterday said the letter defining the committee's mandate - one of the factors that raised Bethlehem's, and Israel's, suspicions about its intentions - was actually only a draft prepared by Annan's aide, which the secretary general had not yet approved.
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post #4 of 81
Yeah, and the UN has a history of condemning Israel while either ignoring Palestinian terrorism or even saying their "right to resist" is A-OK. Israel is justified in its skepticism of the UN, with its large number of Arab and Muslim members and relatively few Israel supporters.

About Jenin, the UN has already decided that Israel was in the wrong.

To get a good view of the UN's view of Israel, read <a href="http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:_iJpN1wj05UC:www.pchrgaza.org/Interventions/chr2002_8oral.pdf+human+rights+commission+israel+% 22right+to+resist%22&hl=en" target="_blank"> this</a>. In it, the UN condemns Israel yet again, but makes no mention of the dozens of Palestinian terrorist killings of Israeli citizens, and actually dismisses it by putting quotes around "terror" and calling it a pretext:
[quote]Rooting out 'terror' and destroying 'terror bases' is the pretext given for these actions.<hr></blockquote>
post #5 of 81
In a situation like this, Gaining immunity by telling the truth is a fair principle. Very much in accord with how the "Truth and Reconciliation Commision" worked in South Africa. Getting the parties to talk is important, getting them to admit their mistakes is even better.
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post #6 of 81
Since the text is adressing israeli human rights abuse in the OT, and is not, as far as I can tell a UN document, but a speach made by the palestinian human rights delagation to the UN, you can hardly expect to find much reference to palestinian terrorism here.
This document does not at all reflect official UN policy (regretably maybe...).

Why don't you read the real UN resolutions like <a href="http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7348.doc.htm" target="_blank">1402</a>, You'll see that they adress the obligations of both parties...
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post #7 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Why don't you read the real UN resolutions like <a href="http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7348.doc.htm" target="_blank">1402</a>, You'll see that they adress the obligations of both parties...</strong><hr></blockquote>That's a Security Council resolution, which as you know the US can veto. The Human Rights Commission resolutions tend to be a bit different. [/understatement]

I believe the Human Rights Commission adopted that statement that I linked above, but I couldn't confirm that with an internet search.

[edit, found this]
[quote]Financial Times (London) April 16, 2002, Tuesday

Copyright 2002 The Financial Times Limited
Financial Times (London)

April 16, 2002, Tuesday London Edition 2

SECTION: MIDDLE EAST; Pg. 8

UN condemns 'mass killings' of Palestinians

The United Nations human rights commission yesterday condemned Israel for its "mass killings" of Palestinians, in a resolution that highlighted the divide among European Union members on the subject, writes Carola Hoyos, United Nations Correspondent.

Six of the nine EU countries on the commission voted in favour of the resolution, which criticises Israel for "gross violations" of humanitarian law, but affirms the "legitimate right of Palestinian people to resist". Austria, Belgium, France, Portugal, Spain and Sweden, voted in favour. Germany and the UK voted against and Italy abstained. Walter Lewalter, Germany's ambassador, said: "The text contains formulations that might be interpreted as an endorsement of violence. There is no condemnation whatsoever of terrorism."

The resolution was put forward by Arab states.

LOAD-DATE: April 15, 2002 <hr></blockquote>

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: BRussell ]</p>
post #8 of 81
Still, its not even a general assembly resolution, find one. If you want to start critizising the UN, you can't just go picking out single text you don't like. The Security council and the general assambly is the highest institotions of the UN. The human rights commision can write this because of its task to adresse human rights issues, not speak on behalf of the UN body as a whole. And as your quote states, there where votes against the text.
If you don't agree that human rights have been violated in the conflict, you need to look again. And don't go; "but the palestinians do it to", yes they do, but you can still critizis Israel for these issues. Especially since its a democracy. We have higher standards for democracies, maybe we shouldn't, but we all do.
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post #9 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Still, its not even a general assembly resolution, find one. If you want to start critizising the UN, you can't just go picking out single text you don't like. The Security council and the general assambly is the highest institotions of the UN. The human rights commision can write this because of its task to adresse human rights issues, not speak on behalf of the UN body as a whole. And as your quote states, there where votes against the text.
If you don't agree that human rights have been violated in the conflict, you need to look again. And don't go; "but the palestinians do it to", yes they do, but you can still critizis Israel for these issues. Especially since its a democracy. We have higher standards for democracies, maybe we shouldn't, but we all do.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough but why doesn't the human rights commission ever criticize Palestinian or indeed Arab violations ( far more frequent then Israeli ones)of human rights ? How can Israelis respect these UN double standards ? how can the UN have any credibility with these kind of actions ?

[ 04-27-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
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post #10 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:

<strong>It's means also that Israelians fear what UN can discover in Jenin.</strong><hr></blockquote>

More likely it means they don't expect the UN to be an impartial arbiter. I wouldn't either.
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post #11 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>And don't go; "but the palestinians do it to", yes they do, but you can still critizis Israel for these issues. Especially since its a democracy. We have higher standards for democracies, maybe we shouldn't, but we all do.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes! This is exactly what I've been looking for from your side. Let's just be up front and say we're only going to criticize Israel. Let's hold the Arab side to a lower standard - let's give them a free pass. This is your side's MO. I'm just glad to see you acknowledge it. I'll know where you're coming from from now on - applying two different standards, only looking at one side of the issue.
post #12 of 81
Thread Starter 
Where do you get this ridiculous idea that Palestinian terrorism isn't condemned? The most powerful person in the UN comdemns Palestinian terror daily, every time he talks about the Middle East situation.

What more condemnation from the UN do you need when you have every U.S. president saying Palestinians need to cut the shit out and whoever the head of the UN is at the time? What more do you want?

I wouldn't even call it a different standard, the UN just has more access to Israel and Israel's side is far more publicized.
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post #13 of 81
a bit off topic

It always strikes me as strange, the fascination people have with this subject namely Israel. Such a tiny nation, with an even tinier piece of land, yet, the attention it garners is awesome. Makes me think that theres something deeply unconscious going on here. Quite unsettling

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #14 of 81
Thread Starter 
[quote]Makes me think that theres something deeply unconscious going on here.<hr></blockquote>

Maybe it's because you guys are killing each other off by the hundreds and it has very dangerous implications on the rest of the world.

Nothing unconscious about that.
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post #15 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

Maybe it's because you guys are killing each other off by the hundreds and it has very dangerous implications on the rest of the world.

Nothing unconscious about that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe. I dont know.

During the Cold War, I would have probably agreed. Now, Im not sure one can still rationalize it that way. Anyway, I just find it strange. My gut tells me that theres more to this than meets the eye

Mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #16 of 81
Thread Starter 
The Cold War was cold. No bloodshed. Cold war. This is a very Hot war. Many deaths. Lots of bloodshed. There's quite a drastic difference.

And what are you implying?
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post #17 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>The Cold War was cold. No bloodshed. Cold war.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not exactly. Viet Nam and Korea were part of the Cold War.
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post #18 of 81
Thread Starter 
No, they weren't.

Vietnam and Korea were about communism and containment, but The Cold War specifically refers to our "cold war" (clever bit, that) with the U.S.S.R.

Both Vietnam and Korea's main commie-pinko-scumbag threat was from China.

("The people of Vietnam chose communism!? **** that! Send in some 'advisors'!" - John F. 'God Himself' Kennedy)

Also, Vietnam and Korea don't have the worldwide implications that Israel/Palestine does, even if our fearmongers in the .gov were trying to make it sound like the entire world would fall under dictatorial communism if the yellow people got it.
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post #19 of 81
Edit:

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #20 of 81
Thread Starter 
[quote]It almost seems like some super natural force is at play here. As if something is testing Israel.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, that is frightening.

What does "testing Israel" mean? Like testing Israel's patience?
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post #21 of 81
Edit: nevermind...

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #22 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>No, they weren't.

Vietnam and Korea were about communism and containment, but The Cold War specifically refers to our "cold war" (clever bit, that) with the U.S.S.R.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Who do you think was backing them? It wasn't just China. It was called a cold war because we didn't square off directly with the USSR. If we did, it would have been WWIII. Viet Nam, Korea, Nicaragua, Chile, Afghanistan, etc. were all part of the Cold War but instead of fighting Russians directly we fought proxies or we had proxies that fought on our side. These hot wars were about containment, yes. But so were all the spy games and the Berlin airlift and the Cuban missile crisis. That's what the Cold War was about - containment.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #23 of 81
It is strange that Israel captures so much attention from the world but things like <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51325,00.html" target="_blank">this are swept under the carpet</a> like they never happen. But I guess you have to be an Islamic country to have that kind of protection.
post #24 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>It is strange that Israel captures so much attention from the world but things like <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51325,00.html" target="_blank">this are swept under the carpet</a> like they never happen. But I guess you have to be an Islamic country to have that kind of protection.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What the hell are You talking about? "Swept under the carpet." <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> How can you say that when the article is from today.

And what about looking for articles other places before you make a bold statement like that?

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/04/27/indonesia.ambon/index.html" target="_blank">CNN</a>

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1955000/1955918.stm" target="_blank">BBC</a> (and also on their front page)
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post #25 of 81
Thread Starter 
What more coverage can you have of Palestinian terror acts? They are all over the front pages of our national papers and national news websites when they happen.

The U.S. media was almost completely silent about Jenin when it was going on.

What more do you want? A .gov official to come to your door and tell you every time something happens?

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

"It's swept under the rug!" and then you link to one of the biggest news outlets in the U.S.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

[edit]

Roger:

While this wonderful semantic quibble about what the term "Cold War" encompasses goes on, don't forget the actual point of contention, pckilla's assertion that the ME situation isn't globally important.

containment &gt; Cold War

Korea, Cuba, Vietnam etc... all result from containment, not our Cold War with Russia. The Cold War was about containment as well.

It's a semantic thing.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
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post #26 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>What more coverage can you have of Palestinian terror acts? They are all over the front pages of our national papers and national news websites when they happen.

The U.S. media was almost completely silent about Jenin when it was going on.

What more do you want? A .gov official to come to your door and tell you every time something happens?

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

"It's swept under the rug!" and then you link to one of the biggest news outlets in the U.S.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, that might be the case in the US but here in Europe the story is told almost completly from a Palestinian angle and it's obvious that most journalist's sympathy is with the palestinian side.
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post #27 of 81
hmm ... well, let's see how long they run with story. This thing is a systemic problem, and not just limited to Indonesia.


... "which was meant to end three years of fighting between Muslims and Christians here that has left 9,000 dead." ... :eek:

Kinda puts the current hysteria about Israeli actions in perspective. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />


mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #28 of 81
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post #29 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>hmm ... well, let's see how long they run with story. This thing is a systemic problem, and not just limited to Indonesia.


... "which was meant to end three years of fighting between Muslims and Christians here that has left 9,000 dead." ... :eek:

Kinda puts the current hysteria about Israeli actions in perspective. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>

"Well judge I might have killed ten people when I went mad with a Uzi in my old high school but think about what OBL did. I don´t think what I did was so bad was it?" <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

Never compare what you do with what happens in non related conflicts. If you do then in Indonesia can say "Well Hitler killed this or that number of Jews, Communists and Intellectuals. Are we so bad then?"

Use our own standarts instead of others.
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post #30 of 81
You are missing my point. This has been going on for at least three years, yet it is rarely if ever mentioned. It is not an isolated incident that you can brush off. This is a systemic problem, and not confined to Indonesia alone. I seem to recall similar things happening in north Africa, where the surviving Christians are then turned into slaves, believe it or not.

mika.


Edit:
groverat, you said you are a journalism student. You probably have access to people and material that most of us dont. Could you see if you can verify this story.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #31 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Can´t say about UK but not true here in Denmark. When there is terrorist suicide bombs going off everywhere in Israel papers reports about that. When Israel close off larg parts of the occupied areas and transport heavy military equipment into them and do "classified" thing ith it they report about that.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Anders, off course they report all about suicide attacks here in UK too its news and news sell papers .... the problem is that inside the pages and on the BBC all of the reporting is done in a very one sided way, important facts about PA complicity in terror are withheld and there are loads of Op-Ed sections full of anti Israeli and sometimes even anti-semitic opinions .. very little in way of showing the Israeli side... it got so bad a few weeks ago that even the foreign secretary Jack Straw (not a generally pro Israeli man) went out against UK coverage of the story .... And I know from friends in France and Norway that the situation there is ten times worse... its enough to see the horrific string of violent Anti-semitic attacks in the past few months in France Germany and Central Europe ! basically israel is fair game these days around Europe.

<a href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=119117&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=119117&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y</a>

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
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post #32 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>You are missing my point. This has been going on for at least three years, yet it is rarely if ever mentioned.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess you should buy some different newspapers then if you feel underinformed Mika. Since my "palestinian-loving anti-zionistic" european newschannels is reporting about this conflict on a regular basis I have been well aware of it for a long time.
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post #33 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

I guess you should buy some different newspapers then if you feel underinformed Mika. Since my "palestinian-loving anti-zionistic" european newschannels is reporting about this conflict on a regular basis I have been well aware of it for a long time.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Were you aware that there is a civil war taking place in southern (upper) Egypt between the regime and extreme Islamist groups who want independance from the Nile Delta Egypt ?
Thousands of people died there in the past 20 years and no--one talks about it ...How about internal unrest and represion in Saudi Arabia or what is happening in Lebanon where the Syrians are in effect occupying Lebanon.
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post #34 of 81
........

Propaganda ? who's right ?

<a href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156622&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156622&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y</a>
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post #35 of 81
Muslim slavery of Christians

Here's a little something the Saudis would like to keep quite....

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1530000/1530838.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1530000/1530838.stm</a>

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_468000/468445.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_468000/468445.stm</a>

Sudan is the worst human rights violator of religious freedom today, with over two million people killed in the last 18 years

The government in the north, "is trying to enforce the Islamisation and Arabisation of all the people".

It's trying to wipe out the black, Christian, and Muslim populations that don't agree with their plan.

For Mr Madison and many members of the black community, it is the allegation of widespread slavery in Sudan that has motivated their crusade


The second article also gives you an idea of what the UN is all about.


mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #36 of 81
Thread Starter 
Start different threads about different goddam topics. The fact that you guys can link to this stuff from major media outlets proves it's not being hidden. You're de-railing the thread.

rashumon:

Occam's razor compels us here in the matter of Palestinian dead in Jenin.

Scenario 1: Group A occupies a city/camp for weeks, keeping everyone (international journalists, etc...) out (sometimes sniping at them as they try to sneak in) for weeks. They are accused of killing lots of people.

Scenario 2: Group B decides to take the dead from graves in other parts of the region to move to Jenin (after international media and such are there) to inflate the body count.

I don't know about you, but Scenario 1 seems like the most obvious.

#2 sounds more like, "she raped herself!"
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post #37 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>........

Propaganda ? who's right ?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don´t know. But if Sharon didn´t delay the time when UN could get into Jenin this wouldn´t be a possibility. And now Israel is exposing itself to suspicions about hiding what went on.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #38 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Muslim slavery of Christians

Here's a little something the Saudis would like to keep quite....
</strong><hr></blockquote>

As Groverat said we discuss Israel/Palestine here. Start another thread about this conflict and you will discover that noone here disagree that this is wrong, bad etc.

This is a typical case of "oh yeah but he is even worse that me" *run away while teacher looks at boy you pointed at*

[quote]
<strong>The second article also gives you an idea of what the UN is all about.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you think we should give money to slave dealers to have them free slaves? I am sure that this tactic will make them reconsider taking slaves in the first place... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #39 of 81
Thread Starter 
Meanwhile, Israel still hasn't allowed the UN into the Jenin camp...

No, not suspiscious at all that they aren't even in there and Israel is already making excuses for the large number of dead...

Not suspiscious at all!
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #40 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>a bit off topic

It always strikes me as strange, the fascination people have with this subject namely Israel. Such a tiny nation, with an even tinier piece of land, yet, the attention it garners is awesome. Makes me think that theres something deeply unconscious going on here. Quite unsettling

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Start different threads about different goddam topics. The fact that you guys can link to this stuff from major media outlets proves it's not being hidden. You're de-railing the thread. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The point is, that nobody started this thread in the first place...

So maybe my suspicions are not so off base after all.

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
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