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Israel Will Finally Cooperate, But Demands Immunity - Page 2

post #41 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Meanwhile, Israel still hasn't allowed the UN into the Jenin camp...

No, not suspiscious at all that they aren't even in there and Israel is already making excuses for the large number of dead...

Not suspiscious at all!</strong><hr></blockquote>


Israel smelled a rat. I think they quite correct on insisting on their demand. And if people like you who already prejudged the situation dont like it. Well, too bad.

mika.
post #42 of 81
[quote] Maybe my suspicions are not so off base after all. <hr></blockquote>



Like I and others have said again and again: What is the title of this thread? Surprised that we talk about Israel and Palestine here?

But okay Mika Pleeeasee tell us what kind of unconscious things that are going on according to you.

Last time it was something about someone testing Israel. Is it God you mean?

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #43 of 81
Thread Starter 
Damned biased UN folks will bring in more Palestinian dead bodies from other places. Fie on them!

If Israel has nothing to hide, then what the hell is the problem?

--

What they want is a group to come in, see dead old women in demolished homes and say, "Perfectly acceptable military action."
proud resident of a failed state
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post #44 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Damned biased UN folks will bring in more Palestinian dead bodies from other places. Fie on them! </strong><hr></blockquote>


No. What they'll do is turn a bind eye when the Arabs do it.

Just like they did on Southern Lebanon border, when the Hezbollah dressed in UN uniforms abducted three of our soldiers under the camera of a real UN crew. Of-course the UN denied that such a thing occurred. But the truth eventually surfaced.

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #45 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>



Like I and others have said again and again: What is the title of this thread? Surprised that we talk about Israel and Palestine here?
</strong><hr></blockquote>


No. I'm not surprised at all. I've come to expect as much from you duplicitous hypocrites. The fact that we have 1000+ posts concerning this subject, and zero posts (before I posted) concerning the 2,000,000 dead and thousands being sold into slavery, speaks for itself, and just confirms my suspicions about you people.

mika.
post #46 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>


No. I'm not surprised at all. I've come to expect as much from you duplicitous hypocrites. The fact that we have 1000+ posts concerning this subject, and zero posts (before I posted) concerning the 2,000,000 dead and thousands being sold into slavery, speaks for itself, and just confirms my suspicions about you people.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

1) So what is your suspicion about us then?

2) Apparently there is nothing to argue about concerning the other conflicts mentioned here. I´ll bet 30 mixed Carlsbergs and Tuborgs that we all agree more or less on those issues here. So what should we do? Make a lot of "I agree" posts? But I have´t seen you make a new thread about these conflicts either. AFAIK you have only posted in one thread in the entire forum that wasn´t about Israel (something about network or DCHP server or ...?)
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post #47 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>


No. What they'll do is turn a bind eye when the Arabs do it.

Just like when they did on Southern Lebanon border, when the Hezbollah dressed in UN uniforms abducted three of our soldiers under the camera of a real UN crew. Of-course the UN denied that such a thing occurred. But the truth eventually surfaced.

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

You guys have to admit Mika has a point here ... I pretty much disagree with him on most stuff he says but the Leanese border story is true and well documented ( was a hugh embarrasment for the UN and Anan few monthes ago )and the fact you guys never heard about it proves another point. the UN isn't all just and innocent as the recent resignation of the whole Dutch government remindes us... UN representatives are people with nationalities they have their own agenda and interests.....

There is a reason for Israel not letting the UN team in yet ( although is has originaly welcomed its formation) the Israeli demands are totaly reasonable and have been approved by the UN who then backtracked on the agrement

How is Israeli claims unreasonable ?
Groovrat ?
Anders ?
anyone ?

I would be happy to get details
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post #48 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

1) So what is your suspicion about us then?

2) Apparently there is nothing to argue about concerning the other conflicts mentioned here. I´ll bet 30 mixed Carlsbergs and Tuborgs that we all agree more or less on those issues here. So what should we do? Make a lot of "I agree" posts? But I have´t seen you make a new thread about these conflicts either. AFAIK you have only posted in one thread in the entire forum that wasn´t about Israel (something about network or DCHP server or ...?)</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not one to stick my nose into other people's business. This subject relates to me personally, and that's why I post. If it didn't relate to me personally, I doubt I would have posted. Thats why I find it so suspicious that you're so fixated with this subject.

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #49 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>
I would be happy to get details </strong><hr></blockquote>

Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.
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post #50 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

I'm not one to stick my nose into other people's business. This subject relates to me personally, and that's why I post. If it didn't relate to me personally, I doubt I would have posted. Thats why I find it so suspicious that you're so fixated with this subject.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Its not just your buisness. Its everyones. Sorry Mika but the time where you could claim "internal affairs" and thus keep people out is over.

Israel relates to me personally also, I have Israeli friends (and family far out) that I care about. I would like one day to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety in a country in peace with its neigbours. Beside a country claiming to be a democracy having a large minority inside the boarders of its control living with a lot less rights than the majority is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.

And beside that I am concerned with a lot of other issues in IR: The right-winged racist movements in Europe, Fascism in China, what the "war against terrorism" means for the future of IR, International agreements on enviromental and international law issues etc. But right now in this thread its about Israel and Palestine so lets stick to that okay?
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post #51 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Right!

And what happens when some US soldiers get killed by Arabs. Groverat and his like will be there to blame us, and say its all Israels fault. Just like he blames us for 9/11. Great idea! I guess you never did learn the lessons from Beirut. Americans don't have the stomach for this. It they shouldn't. It's not really their problem.

mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #52 of 81
Of course it depends on what conditions Israel give the forces...

But I think US will recognise its worth the risk. I know we are. And a plan build on the arab suggestion (which essentially is 242 plus recognision by the arab states) will make it more clear cut.

And I know the arab states wouldn´t like american troops but under UN rule and combined with scandinavian and other more neutral PK troops they would have to accept.

And again it is their problem. alone the number of UN resolutions makes it their (and every countries) problem.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #53 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Its not just your buisness. Its everyones. Sorry Mika but the time where you could claim "internal affairs" and thus keep people out is over.

Israel relates to me personally also, I have Israeli friends (and family far out) that I care about. I would like one day to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety in a country in peace with its neigbours. Beside a country claiming to be a democracy having a large minority inside the boarders of its control living with a lot less rights than the majority is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uhh ?!?!

Israel has been front page news since the day of its inception. If an Israeli politician picks his f***ing nose, its in every television set in the world.

And because a shmuck like you feels he wants to ride his bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety, Israel should give up its right. Man, if I could come over and kick you in face, I would.


mika.
post #54 of 81
Thread Starter 
Lame attempts at obfuscation here.

What harm would UN officials do in Jenin?
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory.

This thread is about a very specific topic, but you drag it out into all arenas so no reasonable discussion on the subject can be had.

You're very taxing on the patience.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #55 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

And because a shmuck like you feels he wants to ride his bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety, Israel should give up its right. Man, if I could come over and kick you in face, I would.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Elegantly ignoring the other reasons why its my concern <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

If you have to have everything litterally let me spell it out for you: Me riding my bike from one end of Israel to the other without any worry = Israel in a condition where it can worry about other things that who is going to get blown up in a cafe next time, trading with its neigbours, not opressing people within its boarders. In other words a country where its youth doesn´t have go give years of its life to the military in a conflict most people want solved in a peaceful manner and having enough sparetime to go and enjoy the beautiful country they live in and visit Sharm el Sheikh and Petra in their friendly neighbouring countries without any fear

*edit*

And "shmuck" and "kick you in face" right back at you bro´ <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
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post #56 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough I agree with that whole heartedly !
I think that what israel is doing now with the fact finding mission is exactly what you say re being mega careful what exactly this mission can and can't do and how it proposes to do that .... nothing's wrong with that me thinks.... I also think groovrat's allegations and pre-assumptions ( him being judge, jury, and executioner for Israel and assuming everything is a coverup)
is unfair and not based on the facts of the story...
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post #57 of 81
quote:
.... is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.

And beside that I am concerned with a lot of other issues in IR: The right-winged racist movements in Europe, Fascism in China, what the "war against terrorism" means for the future of IR, International agreements on enviromental and international law issues etc. But right now in this thread its about Israel and Palestine so lets stick to that okay?


Right. We already know what happens to people when they place their security in the hands of Arabs and "democtracts" such as you.

<a href="http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html" target="_blank">http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html</a>


mika.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #58 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Lame attempts at obfuscation here.

What harm would UN officials do in Jenin?
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory.

This thread is about a very specific topic, but you drag it out into all arenas so no reasonable discussion on the subject can be had.

You're very taxing on the patience.</strong><hr></blockquote>

No mate, YOU are very taxing on the patience <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
The wrong UN team could do enormous damage to Israel in Jenin just like it does in Lebanon.
They could ignore the fact that these were terrorists Israel was fighting there ... It can ignore the fact that this is an armed struggle which by its very nature leads to casualties...
it can Ignore the fact that It was the Palestinian millitants who choose to hide among innocent civilians and boobytrap the entire refugee camp ( did you know that every day they get 3-4 explosions there while trying to clear the rubble out)...

This is not about wheather Israel was justified in attacking Jenin or not .. this is not a political mission sent to solve the area's problmes the groovrat way. its a mission with a simple mandate: to investigate wheather there was an Israeli masscare performed against 500 civilians in jenin as the Palestinians claim.
there is nothing wrong with BOTH sides to insist on their demands ( as long as they are reasonable) vis-a-vie the mission , after all if either side will be unhappy with the commision's composition or mandate before it starts its work its findings will never have the respectability they need to have in order to be effective !
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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post #59 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Lame attempts at obfuscation here.

What harm would UN officials do in Jenin?
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Than why didn't they have any persons with military background on the team, prior to Israel's objections? Someone who will actually be qualified to judge what happened. The answer is obvious. Because from day one, this whole thing was set up as a trap.

mika.
post #60 of 81
You know what really gets me ? the fact we haven't seen any Arabs or Palestinians on any of these debates...

This means none of them use Macs :eek: .......... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />


How can we ever have peace ????
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #61 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>You know what really gets me ? the fact we haven't seen any Arabs or Palestinians on any of these debates...

This means none of them use Macs :eek: .......... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />


How can we ever have peace ????
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think anders alluded to that earlier. Macs are the Jews of the world. We all know how that story will end. Only 95% to go.

mika.
post #62 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

I think anders alluded to that earlier. Macs are the Jews of the world. We all know how that story will end. Only 95% to go.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I was kidding off course.... :cool:
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post #63 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>

I was kidding off course.... :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>

But was Mika kidding (95% to go before peace) :confused: <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

The simple answer to that question (why don´t we have any palestinians here) is because they don´t have the same access to computers/internet as Israelis have. And even if they have it can´t used for pure entertainment. Sorry for being seriously in everything today.

Speaking of day: I have to put some people in jail six hours from now so I better say nightynight
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post #64 of 81
anders, there is a reason the wink is there...
read yor disclaimer ...

mika.
post #65 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
So you think we should give money to slave dealers to have them free slaves? I am sure that this tactic will make them reconsider taking slaves in the first place... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

hmm ... i wonder what the slaves had to say about that rescue action. what would you say if you were that slave ...

too bad you're not so high minded when it comes to dealing with terrorists tactics ...

g'nit

mika.
post #66 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

hmm ... i wonder what the slaves had to say about that rescue action. what would you say if you were that slave ...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Are you actually saying that its okay to buy slaves? UN should get involved in preventing slavery in the first place but as long as there is a marked for slaves its an impossible battle and buying slaves is counterproductive if you want to fight slave dealers.

There is no difference between this and making deals with terrorists holding hostages. What you win here and now you will loose double later...

And for your question: Yes if I was held as a slave I would do everything to get away but I would not wish anyone to do anything that meant other people would come in the same situation as me. The same thing with being held as a hostage. I would do anything possible to get free without being killed but I would not want other people to take my place (which negotiating with hostages would lead to). I would rather let it end with me. And yes its something I have been forced to think through. If I ever had to be in an area where I risked being kidnapped I would wear a message telling that they would not gain anything from holding me hostage and the best for them would be to let me go. If it didn´t save me it would probably save the next guy that did the same...
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post #67 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>The simple answer to that question (why don´t we have any palestinians here) is because they don´t have the same access to computers/internet as Israelis have. And even if they have it can´t used for pure entertainment. Sorry for being seriously in everything today.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, Palestinians have no computers, not even in other countries like European nations...
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #68 of 81
Thread Starter 
rashumon:

Don't be weak. I never said that anything definitely happened in Jenin, I only assert that it is extremely suspiscious based on the actions of the IDF. And the security council's accusation of grave-swapping before anyone is even allowed into the camp is very suspiscious.

[quote]This is not about wheather Israel was justified in attacking Jenin or not<hr></blockquote>

I think that's a very important point of contention. Are people defending their territory against an invading force terrorists? I don't think so.

If they jump on YOUR soil with guns they will be terrorists, but as long as they are on their own and are being attacked, it's Israel's fault. Keep your military the hell out of other people's territory and this shit doesn't happen.

PCKilla:

[quote]Because from day one, this whole thing was set up as a trap.<hr></blockquote>

What does the UN get out of "trapping" Israel?

And I'll tell you what a real trap is, it's an armored bulldozer coming at your home with soldiers positioned outside to shoot you if you try to run away. Now THAT'S a trap.
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post #69 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Are you actually saying that its okay to buy slaves? UN should get involved in preventing slavery in the first place but as long as there is a marked for slaves its an impossible battle and buying slaves is counterproductive if you want to fight slave dealers.

There is no difference between this and making deals with terrorists holding hostages. What you win here and now you will loose double later...

And for your question: Yes if I was held as a slave I would do everything to get away but I would not wish anyone to do anything that meant other people would come in the same situation as me. The same thing with being held as a hostage. I would do anything possible to get free without being killed but I would not want other people to take my place (which negotiating with hostages would lead to). I would rather let it end with me. And yes its something I have been forced to think through. If I ever had to be in an area where I risked being kidnapped I would wear a message telling that they would not gain anything from holding me hostage and the best for them would be to let me go. If it didn´t save me it would probably save the next guy that did the same...</strong><hr></blockquote>

heheh ... anders, i think you owe me some beer. bira maccabi will do. or upper canada dark ale.

and groverat, stop trolling. with your logic you can apply as a spokesperson for the taliban. you can claim that you're not terrorist since the US is on afghani soil attacking you. and that really it is the US who are the terrorists.


mika.

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #70 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>

heheh ... anders, i think you owe me some beer. bira maccabi will do. or upper canada dark ale.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Clever you (I really hope that you wrote that about buying slaves just to get your beer). Next time you are in Denmark you will get your beer. But only danish (my favorite: Sort Guld) or german Weissbeer.
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post #71 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Clever you (I really hope that you wrote that about buying slaves just to get your beer). Next time you are in Denmark you will get your beer. But only danish (my favorite: Sort Guld) or german Weissbeer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'll take the 5th.
post #72 of 81
Thread Starter 
You avoid the question:

What does the UN get out of "trapping" Israel?
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post #73 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>You avoid the question:

What does the UN get out of "trapping" Israel?</strong><hr></blockquote>

A feeling of Moral superiority? Kinda like what you get out of posting in these threads. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
NoahJ
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #74 of 81
Thread Starter 
[quote]A feeling of Moral superiority?<hr></blockquote>

The U.N. is a person with feelings now?
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post #75 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>You avoid the question:

What does the UN get out of "trapping" Israel?</strong><hr></blockquote>


The trap is this. Set up the groundwork for a pretext to insert UN troops onto Israeli soil. The UN, acting as a defacto Arab proxy, can thus undermine Israeli sovereignty. Its a slippery road from there on.

mika.
post #76 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

The U.N. is a person with feelings now?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't be naieve. The UN is run by people. People have feelings and motives that are acted out in unison for the most part when part of a larger whole.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #77 of 81
Thread Starter 
mmmk, so the UN wants to get rid of Israel now?
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post #78 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Roger:

While this wonderful semantic quibble about what the term "Cold War" encompasses goes on, don't forget the actual point of contention, pckilla's assertion that the ME situation isn't globally important.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I agree with pckilla on that.

[quote]<strong>containment &gt; Cold War

Korea, Cuba, Vietnam etc... all result from containment, not our Cold War with Russia. The Cold War was about containment as well.

It's a semantic thing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, it should be Cold War &gt; containment but I'm dropping this now because this is not what the thread is about.
shooby doo, shooby doo
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shooby doo, shooby doo
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post #79 of 81
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>


The trap is this. Set up the groundwork for a pretext to insert UN troops onto Israeli soil. The UN, acting as a defacto Arab proxy, can thus undermine Israeli sovereignty. Its a slippery road from there on.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

HA HA HA HAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

The UN as an ARAB PROXY!!! Priceless! The United 'Er, Whatever the President of the United States Says' Nations working to undermine Israeli sovereignty! Absolutely priceless.

Mika, you SATIRIST! I didn't realise. You just f*cking with us, intcha!
post #80 of 81
hmm... u outed me... i admit it...
u r too cleaver cuz. must run in the family.
u think it runs in the family?

mika.

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
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