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Iranian Scientist Tortured and Kidnapped by the US

post #1 of 47
Thread Starter 
Shahram Amiri, the Iranian nuclear scientist kidnapped by the US is now safely back in Iran. The case reveals several interesting - and disturbing - issues.

Firstly there is the illegality of the kidnap with help from usual Saudi scumbag allies and the subsequent lying and propaganda.

Mr Amiri was undertaking the Haj (pilgrimage to Mecca) a year ago when he was abducted by CIA agents. This can only have been done with Saudi approval. No surprise there.

The US then embarked on a campaign of lies and propaganda which ranged from 'not knowing where Mr Amiri was' to constructing fake videos where an impostor claimed to be him and wanted to 'defect' through various other deceptions.

Note the use of fake videos and stand-ins which is exactly the same MO as the fake Osama messages from then same source.

Which brings us to the second point: while this lying was going on Mr Amiri was being tortured. Not in Guantanamo or outsourced to some friendly fascists like Saudi but IN THE US.

So; so far we have illegal kidnapping, lies and torture. But there's more:

Quote:
"I was under the harshest mental and physical torture," he said, adding that Israeli agents had been present during the interrogations and that the CIA had offered him $50m to remain in the US.

"The Americans wanted me to say that I defected to America of my own will to use me for revealing some false information about Iran's nuclear work. But with God's will, I resisted......I have some documents proving that I've not been free in the US and have always been under the control of armed agents of US intelligence services

He also denied he had been heavily involved in Iran's nuclear programme, saying he was a "simple researcher who was working at a university....I'm not involved in any confidential jobs. I had no classified information. I had nothing to do with the Natanz and Fordo sites," he said, referring to Iran's two uranium enrichment plants.

Link

So two points of interest here:

1) Israeli agents had been present during the interrogations

It seems that the torture was overseen by the Israelis - and this seems also to fit with the general MO of this case where an innocent man is kidnapped with blatant disregard for sovereign and International law as well as the ant-Iranian motives.

2) ....to use me for revealing some false information about Iran's nuclear work


Get that? FALSE INFORMATION.

If the information received from the torture sessions were true then it would be the justification needed for the planned attack on Iran.

But it wasn't true.

Ie - there is NO evidence. So they need to manufacture some. Hence the 'false' bit.

This is not about stopping any nuclear ambition of Iran - it is about justifying an invasion already planned by the US and Israel and finding a reason the sheep will swallow to justify the deaths (American not Israeli) that it will cost.

Luckily Mr Amiri had that increasingly rare thing: integrity.

If he had not he would now be $50M richer, living in Beverly Hills and his 'irrefutable evidence' of the Iranian bomb would be wall to wall dripping down into every home and wingers with a hard-on would be all over these boards like a cheap suit with their 'proof' even as the bombers droned overhead on their mission to obliterate more infidel lives in the name of 'freedom, Jesus and the good old US of A'.

Looks like it's on hold for a little while longer but they needn't worry...it's definitely in the post.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 47
Yes, sego...let's just take him at his word. He was kidnapped and tortured by the CIA. Case closed!
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #3 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Yes, sego...let's just take him at his word. He was kidnapped and tortured by the CIA. Case closed!

If he wasn't kidnapped how did he get to the US?

The US story was he defected but clearly this is not true.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 47
Wait, a year ago Obama was president and we all know he would never condone, endorse or allow torture on his watch.

Either that or he was out playing golf or going on date nights.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Wait, a year ago Obama was president and we all know he would never condone, endorse or allow torture on his watch.

Either that or he was out playing golf or going on date nights.

Or buying ice cream for the girls. You forgot the ice cream.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #6 of 47
Thread Starter 
Yet another thread gets Obamafied

I'm starting to get concerned now. This is clearly in the nature of a Freudian or (shudder) Lacanian obsession.

I really did not want to ever have to act as psychotherapist to the wingers here but I think now that the safety of the public is paramount and clearly this is reaching crisis point.

I am going to have to step in and help here....painful as it is going to be for me to go down into the dark places to save these pathetic lost souls.

From now on I will suspend all personal judgements and opinions and act solely in the role of a detached analyst to every post. It could take some time but together we can beat this condition....

I'm listening....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #7 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Or buying ice cream for the girls. You forgot the ice cream.

What does 'Ice Cream' mean to you? What images does it conjure up in its tapering fluting shape with a creamy top to be sucked on?

And why do you associate this image with your President?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #8 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Wait, a year ago Obama was president and we all know he would never condone, endorse or allow torture on his watch.

Either that or he was out playing golf or going on date nights.

Rahm Emanual likely advanced this measure in Obama's golf absence but as you say openness and truth is not a hallmark of this administration. My take on it is simply that the leftists appear outraged over this Iranian scientists' welfare yet last week were largely silent about that Iranian woman's sentence to be stoned. Must be that situational ethics Democrats seem to have...
post #9 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yet another thread gets Obamafied

We get that it is uncomfortable for some people, perhaps you included, that Obama is actually, you know, President and all that, and actually responsible for some things like, you know, the actions of government agencies like the CIA for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I am going to have to step in and help here....

How you might help is to explain how when this sort of thing was allegedly happening under the Bush administration is was clearly Bush who was at least indirectly and possibly directly responsible for it, but under the Obama administration...well mentioning Obama is merely signs of some kind of mental illness.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #10 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Rahm Emanual likely advanced this measure in Obama's golf absence but as you say openness and truth is not a hallmark of this administration. My take on it is simply that the leftists appear outraged over this Iranian scientists' welfare yet last week were largely silent about that Iranian woman's sentence to be stoned. Must be that situational ethics Democrats seem to have...

I seem to recall that you were going to start a thread about the Iranian Stoning? Remember we discussed it on two occasions and I PMed you but you ignored it.

So not really true to say Leftists were silent - in fact it was YOU who was silent.

Why do you think this is?

Does 'Leftie' have any significance for you?

In Islamic cultures the left-hand is associated with toilet-duties and your hatred of lefties seems connected somehow with your perception of Islam and Muslims.

I think there might be a connection here. Do you want to talk about toilets or bottoms?

I'm listening....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #11 of 47
segovius - do you think this story makes sense? He was kidnapped by the CIA, escaped from them and put some videos on youtube, and then made his own way to an embassy so he could go back to Iran? If he really was kidnapped and the CIA decided they didn't want him, why come up with an obviously false story about an escape? It sounds more likely that he decided to defect but had second thoughts, although admittedly that doesn't make much sense either.
post #12 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

We get that it is uncomfortable for some people, perhaps you included, that Obama is actually, you know, President and all that, and actually responsible for some things like, you know, the actions of government agencies like the CIA for example.

Do you get it?

I don't think you can do seeing as I repeatedly have condemned Obama for being a tool as have several other Lefties here - Tonton for example.

My distaste for him is far deeper than yours actually. Because it is based on insight rather than knee-jerk partisanship and is not in the nature of a neurotic fixation.

Now where were we?

Quote:
How you might help is to explain how when this sort of thing was allegedly happening under the Bush administration is was clearly Bush who was at least indirectly and possibly directly responsible for it, but under the Obama administration...well mentioning Obama is merely signs of some kind of mental illness.

This is what we call 'transference'.

Basically a form of idee fixe arises in the subject's consciousness - in this case the delusion that someone is saying that Obama is NOT responsible for it just because they are trying to help you - and because the patient feels undermined they transfer this feeling and project it onto the therapist.

We need to guard against this.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #13 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

segovius - do you think this story makes sense? He was kidnapped by the CIA, escaped from them and put some videos on youtube, and then made his own way to an embassy so he could go back to Iran? If he really was kidnapped and the CIA decided they didn't want him, why come up with an obviously false story about an escape? It sounds more likely that he decided to defect but had second thoughts, although admittedly that doesn't make much sense either.

No, it doesn't make sense does it?

Maybe he escaped by pretending to play along and then took sanctuary in the Pakistan embassy by which point the US had to let him go rather than have a diplomatic escalation - or maybe they made a deal and got something in return for letting him go.

Or maybe it's a double bluff and he is still on the US payroll and will soon be utilized in some way to hasten the coming war.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #14 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So not really true to say Leftists were silent...

Actually it is true; they were largely silent, irrespective of your pathetic denial. So the situational ethics in play here, as you exhibit for this "Iranian scientist" matter, should be likewise discounted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post

segovius - do you think...

That about covered the relevant issue at question...
post #15 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Actually it is true; they were largely silent

Well...start the thread then - we'll see how silent they are.

My guess is that they did not know you wanted to discuss it as they have all got you on ignore.

Easily remedied...you don't usually have trouble putting finger to keypad, unfortunately. Trot off and start it and we'll all be along in a minute...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

My distaste for him is far deeper than yours actually. Because it is based on insight rather than knee-jerk partisanship and is not in the nature of a neurotic fixation.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yet another thread gets Obamafied

I'm starting to get concerned now. This is clearly in the nature of a Freudian or (shudder) Lacanian obsession.

I really did not want to ever have to act as psychotherapist to the wingers here but I think now that the safety of the public is paramount and clearly this is reaching crisis point.

I am going to have to step in and help here....painful as it is going to be for me to go down into the dark places to save these pathetic lost souls.

From now on I will suspend all personal judgements and opinions and act solely in the role of a detached analyst to every post. It could take some time but together we can beat this condition....

I'm listening....

If the U.S. government did as you claimed, who would you want to have us all hold responsible? Who was previously held responsible for claims regarding U.S. torture?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

If the U.S. government did as you claimed, who would you want to have us all hold responsible? Who was previously held responsible for claims regarding U.S. torture?

It's not about holding anyone responsible - that's a way down the line when perhaps evolution has advanced US leaderships beyond the need (desire?) to torture etc.

Right now it's just about recognizing the nature of the beast. Stepping out of denial.

View it like the first faltering steps from the primeval swamp to crawling on the land. Walking is the goal for sure but first things first....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #19 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's not about holding anyone responsible - that's a way down the line when perhaps evolution has advanced US leaderships beyond the need (desire?) to torture etc.

Right now it's just about recognizing the nature of the beast. Stepping out of denial.

View it like the first faltering steps from the primeval swamp to crawling on the land. Walking is the goal for sure but first things first....

In other words, there is nobody responsible? Glad we cleared that up???
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #20 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, it doesn't make sense does it?

Maybe he escaped by pretending to play along and then took sanctuary in the Pakistan embassy by which point the US had to let him go rather than have a diplomatic escalation - or maybe they made a deal and got something in return for letting him go.

Or maybe it's a double bluff and he is still on the US payroll and will soon be utilized in some way to hasten the coming war.

I am sure it is not possible that he defected, and his family and son were threatened and so he moved back so as to protect those he cared for who did not get out with him. Nope, not even possibly a credible theory at all...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #21 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's not about holding anyone responsible - that's a way down the line when perhaps evolution has advanced US leaderships beyond the need (desire?) to torture etc.

Right now it's just about recognizing the nature of the beast. Stepping out of denial.

View it like the first faltering steps from the primeval swamp to crawling on the land. Walking is the goal for sure but first things first....

So...he was abducted under Obama administration's CIA? Is that what we're in denial about?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #22 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

So...he was abducted under Obama administration's CIA? Is that what we're in denial about?

No....try to keep up

I was referring to the fact that every thread - EVERY thread, no matter what the ostensible subject matter gets turned to 'Obama'....you guys are fixated.

You see I don't care about Obama, in fact I think he is a total and utter wanker and a bigger fucking scumbag than the last fucking scumbag you sheep voted in to 'lead' you...but that's not my problem. It is the rest of the world's problem for sure but then it would be if you had Mickey Mouse in the White House.

So that's the denial: that you are obsessed with this guy. Why?

When Bush was in there was no equivalent obsession...you guys are out of control really....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It's not about holding anyone responsible - that's a way down the line when perhaps evolution has advanced US leaderships beyond the need (desire?) to torture etc.

Right now it's just about recognizing the nature of the beast. Stepping out of denial.

View it like the first faltering steps from the primeval swamp to crawling on the land. Walking is the goal for sure but first things first....

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No....try to keep up

I was referring to the fact that every thread - EVERY thread, no matter what the ostensible subject matter gets turned to 'Obama'....you guys are fixated.

You see I don't care about Obama, in fact I think he is a total and utter wanker and a bigger fucking scumbag than the last fucking scumbag you sheep voted in to 'lead' you...but that's not my problem. It is the rest of the world's problem for sure but then it would be if you had Mickey Mouse in the White House.

So that's the denial: that you are obsessed with this guy. Why?

When Bush was in there was no equivalent obsession...you guys are out of control really....

Actually I seem to recall every thread being about Bush back then, hence my link to Bush Derangement Syndrome as it was lovingly termed.

Your contention, instead of worrying about torture appears to be, why does the U.S. keep electing or having in power people who want to manufacture evidence so they can start false wars in the Middle East and soon blow up Iran.

The non-Obama responses have basically been along the lines of "You don't seriously believe this crap" vein.

The thing that you may be finally starting to hit your head against, and it is something I have explained to you several times now is......wait for it.... Pax Americana. It is the belief that the U.S. is the good guy and must police the world. Like most gritty cop stories, if they have to turn the screws on a squealer or plant a little evidence, it must be okay because we still know who the good guys and bad guys are right?

As I said before and will say again, the attempts to stop Pax Americana are declared to be racist and thus no rational discussion can even occur about it. The impossible or probably claims about spies and evidence and outcomes related to them will continue to occur because the U.S. is still the cop on the beat.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #24 of 47
It'll be interesting to find out how he was tortured.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It'll be interesting to find out how he was tortured.

If he was tortured...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #26 of 47
Hypothesis 1. Shahram Amiri wanted to defect to the US and came here on his own free will. The US found that he had nothing to offer and didn't want to get into a conflict with Iran over the issue of offering him asylum. Now Amiri needed an alibi--The US kidnaped him and tortured him. Now he's a hero when he returns to Iran. If he had no story--he would have been executed.

Hypothesis 2. The Iranians wanting to embarrass the US and planted Shahram Amir convincing the US into thinking that he wanted to defect. Now when he returns to Iran he is a hero who can state that the US is the enemy of Islam and that the US is fabricating the issue of Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Both are just as plausible as Sego's hypothesis. If the CIA was involved and the story was true, do you think that the CIA would have released him? More likely his body would never have been found.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #27 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

[B]....who can state that the US is the enemy of Islam and that the US is fabricating the issue of Iran's nuclear ambitions.

Most sane people know that anyway and everyone in Iran certainly does.

But you're right about him being found dead in a ditch (or vat of acid or whatever they use these days) when the CIA had finished so probably there is something more to this.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Most sane people know that anyway and everyone in Iran certainly does.

But you're right about him being found dead in a ditch (or vat of acid or whatever they use these days) when the CIA had finished so probably there is something more to this.

Really? The US is the enemy of Islam. That is a known fact?

Don't tell all the Muslims living here in safety. It may concern them...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #29 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Really? The US is the enemy of Islam. That is a known fact?

Don't tell all the Muslims living here in safety. It may concern them...

To the degree which the US is actually influenced by Conservative Christians it is true. 100% of Conservative Xians are anti-Islam...whether they admit it or not is a different matter.

And then there is the fact that the vast majority of US mosques are Wahabi financed.

For now Saudi is ally #2 (after Israel) but if and when that changes then we'll see.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

100% of Conservative Xians are anti-Islam...whether they admit it or not is a different matter.

How do you define "anti-Islam" in this context? I want to be very clear on what's being said here because your earlier post affirming the US to be an enemy of Islam and this statement above could be misunderstood in some rather stark and even violent terms.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

To the degree which the US is actually influenced by Conservative Christians it is true. 100% of Conservative Xians are anti-Islam...whether they admit it or not is a different matter.

And then there is the fact that the vast majority of US mosques are Wahabi financed.

For now Saudi is ally #2 (after Israel) but if and when that changes then we'll see.

Can you please provide links that support your allegations?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #32 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

To the degree which the US is actually influenced by Conservative Christians it is true. 100% of Conservative Xians are anti-Islam...whether they admit it or not is a different matter.

Sorry, I mistook your comment of Xians to mean Chinese from Xian provincial city http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an
instead of http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xians

Xian has been in the press because of some demonstrations
http://www.china.org.cn/china/nation...t_14984136.htm
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #33 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Can you please provide links that support your allegations?

Sure, no problem. Hopefully when I do you'll respond courteously in kind with reasoned debate.

Re Saudi-Funded Wahabi Mosques:

Quote:
Reza F. Safa, author of Inside Islam, estimates that since 1973, the Saudi government has spent an unbelievable $87B to promote Wahhabism in the United States, Africa, Southeast Asia and Europe. According to official Saudi information, Saudi funds have been used to build and maintain over 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges, 210 Islamic Centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia and Asia.

Link

Quote:
With the growth of the Islamic community in America, there was no "Islamic establishment" in the U.S. in contrast with Britain, France, and Germany, the main Western countries with significant Islamic minorities. Historically, traditional scholars have been a buffer against extremism in Islam, and for various sociological and demographic reasons, American Islam lacked a stratum of such scholars. The Wahhabi ideological structure in Saudi Arabia perceived this as an opportunity to fill a gap to gain dominance over an Islamic community in the West with immense potential for political and social influence.

At the present time, Shia and other non-Wahhabi Muslim community leaders estimate that 80 percent of American mosques are under Wahhabi control. This does not mean 80 percent of American Muslims support Wahhabism, although the main Wahhabi ideological agency in America, the so-called Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) has claimed that some 70 percent of American Muslims want Wahhabi teaching in their mosques.1This is a claim we consider unfounded.

Link

Note: this above article is required reading if you are interested in this issue and is the testimony of Stephen Schwartz (an Islamic Scholar) before the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security on Thursday, June 26, 2003.

Quote:
Islam scholar Stephen Schwartz describes ISNA as "one of the chief conduits through which the radical Saudi form of Islam passes into the United States." Adds Schwartz: "Our view is that the number of mosques under Wahhabi control actually totals at least 600 out of the official total of 1,200, while, as noted, Shia community leaders endorse the figure of 80 percent Wahhabi control. But we also offer a number of 4-6,000 mosques overall, including small and diverse congregations of many kinds."

Link

Re Anti-Islam Conservative Xians:


Quote:
One pure and clear campaign carried out by the Christian Action Network is that a billboard standing along Interstate 26, reading Islam Rising.... Be Warned.

The billboard alone is a kind of offline promotion for a website www.islamrising.com, where it is known that the website apparently supports the false view of Greet Wilders about Islam.

On the About section of the website, the website clearly blames the Islamic teaching as saying that implying the literal dictations of the Quran can lead every single Muslim to be terrorist.

Link

Statistics on Religious tolerance (or Lack of) in the US
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #34 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Sorry, I mistook your comment of Xians to mean Chinese from Xian provincial city http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an
instead of http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xians

Xian has been in the press because of some demonstrations
http://www.china.org.cn/china/nation...t_14984136.htm

No Problems...I'm sure someone else will dispute it and need some info! hahah!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

To the degree which the US is actually influenced by Conservative Christians it is true. 100% of Conservative Xians are anti-Islam...whether they admit it or not is a different matter.

And then there is the fact that the vast majority of US mosques are Wahabi financed.

For now Saudi is ally #2 (after Israel) but if and when that changes then we'll see.

Now you are altering your statement. First the entire US is Anti-Muslim. Now it is only the false Christians. And they are anti Islam, whether they know/admit it or not. And finally, muslims are only muslims if they are not Wahabi financed...

Sounds like a carefully constructed argument to make you right whether you are or not.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #36 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Now you are altering your statement. First the entire US is Anti-Muslim. Now it is only the false Christians. And they are anti Islam, whether they know/admit it or not. And finally, muslims are only muslims if they are not Wahabi financed...

Sounds like a carefully constructed argument to make you right whether you are or not.

Probably does 'sound like' to you. Granted. Would not expect anything less.

What is actually IS though is yet another example of your patent inability to comprehend the most basic concepts and statements.

I quote myself (not that it will do any good):

To the degree which the US is actually influenced by Conservative Christians it is true.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Probably does 'sound like' to you. Granted. Would not expect anything less.

What is actually IS though is yet another example of your patent inability to comprehend the most basic concepts and statements.

I quote myself (not that it will do any good):

To the degree which the US is actually influenced by Conservative Christians it is true.

Doesn't change what I said.

To the degree that you are able to make an argument and accept that others may not agree with you and accept that just because they do so does not make them evil, stupid or otherwise encumbered...

And you have used the word Christians, not Xians, so I assume now all Christians are included, real or otherwise? After all, we are quoting you, not paraphrasing...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #38 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Doesn't change what I said.

To the degree that you are able to make an argument and accept that others may not agree with you and accept that just because they do so does not make them evil, stupid or otherwise encumbered...

And you have used the word Christians, not Xians, so I assume now all Christians are included, real or otherwise? After all, we are quoting you, not paraphrasing...

No, it doesn't change what you said but it does spotlight it for what it is
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #39 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, it doesn't change what you said but it does spotlight it for what it is

Well, it certainly does clarify further your opinion of people who disagree with you.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #40 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Well, it certainly does clarify further your opinion of people who disagree with you.

I'm surprised you are still playing that old card.... It's obvious you have to resort to it as there's nothing else in the locker but I think you should at least add some more ammo. It can be overplayed and it makes you look like you can't come up with any other answer and sound like a parrot.

Timing and subtlety are everything!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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