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FundieWatch: Rampant Porn Hypocirisy

post #1 of 116
Thread Starter 
It is well known that a large majority of Fundie US Xians have significant hang-ups regarding sex - particularly this extends to references to sex in the media and movies. It seems that a beautiful human moment is somehow to them disgusting and worthy of suppression whilst blowing people's heads off with all sorts of quasi-phallic weaponry is fine and dandy. Goes hand in hand I suppose.

Anyway, all is not lost because it seems that these fundies aren't so weird after all...turns out they actually LIKE sex just like everyone else, it's just that they are rampant hypocrites.

In-depth research by the respected journal New Scientist shows conclusively that US Conservatives are the biggest biggest consumers of porn.

A new nationwide study of anonymised credit-card receipts from a major online adult entertainment provider shows the following:

1. Those states that do consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption

2. Residents of 27 states that passed laws banning gay marriages boasted 11% more porn subscribers than states that don't explicitly restrict gay marriage.

3. States where a majority of residents agreed with the statement "I have old-fashioned values about family and marriage," bought 3.6 more subscriptions per thousand people than states where a majority disagreed. A similar difference emerged for the statement "AIDS might be God's punishment for immoral sexual behaviour."

4. Among the states which lead the nation in subscriptions to online pornography sites, 8 out of 10 supported John McCain in the last presidential election.

Discuss.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #2 of 116
Interesting article. I read it and would note a couple points...

1. The number of people subscribing to sites per the study is really, really low regardless. The differences between low and high often amount to one person per thousand. I don't really think I would attempt to draw any conclusions about anyone based off a tenth of a percent which is what one person per thousand equals.

2. The study notes that porn is purchased more in urban areas but then uses broadband as a control for this point. It would be interesting to see what would happen with a suburban variable since apparently urban and rural were the only two definitions used.

3. The use of broadband as a control appears to really shuffle the results so but then the results are so narrow to begin with that this is a forgone conclusion. However unless their is proof that both conservatives and liberals adopt broadband at identical rates, then the use of it as a control can distort the results. This assumption within the study would, in my view, appear to be a fatal flaw.

4. It is interesting to note that the study distinguishes between web based porn consumption and cable/ppv which had the largest growth of all. I'm not sure I would draw conclusions about anyone when it appears the study only covers the purchase patterns for less than 25% of all dollars spent on pornography in various forms.

5. Why would liberals pay for porn when they are busy stealing it and trading files of little children engaged in indecent acts?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #3 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Why would liberals pay for porn when they are busy stealing it and trading files of little children engaged in indecent acts?

Nah...I think it's just that Liberals don't need it so much as they are actually out there getting laid....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #4 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It is well known that a large majority of Fundie US Xians have significant hang-ups regarding sex - particularly this extends to references to sex in the media and movies. It seems that a beautiful human moment is somehow to them disgusting and worthy of suppression whilst blowing people's heads off with all sorts of quasi-phallic weaponry is fine and dandy. Goes hand in hand I suppose.

Anyway, all is not lost because it seems that these fundies aren't so weird after all...turns out they actually LIKE sex just like everyone else, it's just that they are rampant hypocrites.

They have...hang ups? You mean silly little religious beliefs that they follow...like no sex before marriage? Or that viewing pornography--particularly hardcore porn--is a sin? I don't subscribe to either of these notions, but I respect their right to do so. I don't mock them for it.

Quote:

In-depth research by the respected journal New Scientist shows conclusively that US Conservatives are the biggest biggest consumers of porn.

No, it doesn't. Not at all. Read on....

Quote:

A new nationwide study of anonymised credit-card receipts from a major online adult entertainment provider shows the following:

1. Those states that do consume the most porn tend to be more conservative and religious than states with lower levels of consumption




So?

Quote:

2. Residents of 27 states that passed laws banning gay marriages boasted 11% more porn subscribers than states that don't explicitly restrict gay marriage.


Why is the issue of gay marriage the same as looking at porn? Does one have to support gay marriage to look at porn?

Quote:

3. States where a majority of residents agreed with the statement "I have old-fashioned values about family and marriage," bought 3.6 more subscriptions per thousand people than states where a majority disagreed. A similar difference emerged for the statement "AIDS might be God's punishment for immoral sexual behaviour."


Really. So these are the same households who bought the porn, then?

Quote:

4. Among the states which lead the nation in subscriptions to online pornography sites, 8 out of 10 supported John McCain in the last presidential election.


Quote:
Discuss.

The problem here is that you are assuming conservatives are necessarily "fundie" Christians. You are assuming that just because someone is from a "red" state, he must be conservative himself. You're assuming that people who oppose gay marriage must also oppose looking at porn. You're assuming that "fundie" Xians are the ones looking at said porn.

All of these statements are absurdly flawed. Not that I should be surprised. It's simply another salvo in your barrage of anti-Christian posts over the years.

PS: Let's assume that "fundie Xians" are the ones looking at the porn. Let's assume that they are hypocrites. All of them. Let me ask, then: Who the fuck cares? Why does anyone care?
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post #5 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Let me ask, then: Who the fuck cares? Why does anyone care?

Err..... because they have dedicated their lives to fucking up other people's ?

Let me turn it back to you: let's say there ARE Islamic terrorists who hate you....let's say they DO despise your 'freedom' - who the fuck cares? WHY should they care?

The answer is the same: the people who care are the ones in danger of being fucked up by it.

Obviously those who are of the same ilk are not in such danger no? Thus they can afford not to care....maybe, just maybe, they don't care because they are the ones actually DOING the fucking other people up...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #6 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Err..... because they have dedicated their lives to fucking up other people's ?

Let me turn it back to you: let's say there ARE Islamic terrorists who hate you....let's say they DO despise your 'freedom' - who the fuck cares? WHY should they care?

The answer is the same: the people who care are the ones in danger of being fucked up by it.

Obviously those who are of the same ilk are not in such danger no? Thus they can afford not to care....maybe, just maybe, they don't care because they are the ones actually DOING the fucking other people up...

Seg perhaps you need to follow a little more U.S. news. Liberals spend their days fucking up other people's lives. First they start with labels and then whey they believe you were "educated" but somehow still didn't choose what they want, they simply attempt to take away the choice.

Liberals in places like San Franciso want to legislate if you can buy a can of soda or purchase a pet. Why are you still buying into the boogie men who might worry where you put your penis? Worry about the guy trying to put you in prison for forgetting to compost.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #7 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Seg perhaps you need to follow a little more U.S. news. Liberals spend their days fucking up other people's lives. First they start with labels and then whey they believe you were "educated" but somehow still didn't choose what they want, they simply attempt to take away the choice.

Liberals in places like San Franciso want to legislate if you can buy a can of soda or purchase a pet. Why are you still buying into the boogie men who might worry where you put your penis? Worry about the guy trying to put you in prison for forgetting to compost.

Umm...I'm not aware they do that so I'll have to take your word for it. Over here in Europe it's not the Liberals who are pulling that sort of crap.

But I will say this; anyone who can put you in prison for forgetting to compost is NOT a Liberal by definition are they?

I hope I don't have to wheel out the old vegetarian steak analogy again....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #8 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

But I will say this; anyone who can put you in prison for forgetting to compost is NOT a Liberal by definition are they?.

They are called the "progressives" here. And many call themselves "liberals."

But you raise a good point about labels: They are often misapplied (or mis-adopted in the case where someone is labeling themselves.)

Perhaps it is more instructive to look at actions and label those. For example, passing laws that do things like force you to buy some particular thing (say health insurance) or deny you from buying certain things (say soft drinks) or limiting or eliminating choices you have (say in where and how to educate your kids or how you can use the money you've earned)...well those might not be considered, in a manner of speaking, "liberal" actions wherein we define liberal as having something to do with liberty.

I agree it is confusing, especially in the US (I do not have first hand knowledge of other countries) where many people call themselves liberals or even progressives and yet they're actions often very regressive and have nothing to do with liberty at all.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #9 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Umm...I'm not aware they do that so I'll have to take your word for it. Over here in Europe it's not the Liberals who are pulling that sort of crap.

But I will say this; anyone who can put you in prison for forgetting to compost is NOT a Liberal by definition are they?

I hope I don't have to wheel out the old vegetarian steak analogy again....

All ideologies can have authoritarian action taken by those who hold their respective views.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #10 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

They are called the "progressives" here. And many call themselves "liberals."

But you raise a good point about labels: They are often misapplied (or mis-adopted in the case where someone is labeling themselves.)

Perhaps it is more instructive to look at actions and label those. For example, passing laws that do things like force you to buy some particular thing (say health insurance) or deny you from buying certain things (say soft drinks) or limiting or eliminating choices you have (say in where and how to educate your kids or how you can use the money you've earned)...well those might not be considered, in a manner of speaking, "liberal" actions wherein we define liberal as having something to do with liberty.

I agree it is confusing, especially in the US (I do not have first hand knowledge of other countries) where many people call themselves liberals or even progressives and yet they're actions often very regressive and have nothing to do with liberty at all.

Yes, I think there is a confusion between the US and European cultures you're right.

But also there is something else weird going on: in the UK for example the traditional Left-wing Labour party spent the last decade taking away liberties and installing a surveillance state with draconian legislation.

Now the traditional Right-wing Conservative party are back in power they are UNDOING some of this legislation where normally it would be them that backed it!! They are repealing the Identity Card scheme for example.

It's like things are the wrong way round and somehow reversed.

France too is now - a Socialist State allegedly - banning burkhas on the street. Ie telling people what they can wear. But france has always been a bit fascistic though so perhaps that does not count.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #11 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes, I think there is a confusion between the US and European cultures you're right.

I think that plus people simply believing the labels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

But also there is something else weird going on: in the UK for example the traditional Left-wing Labour party spent the last decade taking away liberties and installing a surveillance state with draconian legislation.

Now the traditional Right-wing Conservative party are back in power they are UNDOING some of this legislation where normally it would be them that backed it!! They are repealing the Identity Card scheme for example.

It's like things are the wrong way round and somehow reversed.

France too is now - a Socialist State allegedly - banning burkhas on the street. Ie telling people what they can wear. But france has always been a bit fascistic though so perhaps that does not count.

All the more reason to focus on the actions first, words second (but only in the absence of actions since politicians, in particular, a slithery bunch prone to saying one thing while actually doing the exact opposite) and self-adopted or imposed labels last.

So getting back closer to the thread topic: using pornography and speaking out against pornography.

The first action is one that most reasonable people would agree is not acting in alignment with core Christian (and, I'm sure, Jewish or Islamic) principles, values and beliefs. The second would be speech consistent with core religious values. The disconnect, when it exists, is indeed hypocrisy. We must be careful in taking the next (fallacious) step, which some often do, in saying something like "See, they are hypocrites so pornography is ok."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #12 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I think that plus people simply believing the labels.

Yes, that seems to happen a lot.

I blame advertising and branding for that. Over the last 20 years people have been taught to view things by the brand regardless of the content.

Quote:
All the more reason to focus on the actions first, words second (but only in the absence of actions since politicians, in particular, a slithery bunch prone to saying one thing while actually doing the exact opposite) and self-adopted or imposed labels last.

I agree.....actions are the main thing whatever someone is saying...

Quote:
So getting back closer to the thread topic: using pornography and speaking out against pornography.

The first action is one that most reasonable people would agree is not acting in alignment with core Christian (and, I'm sure, Jewish or Islamic) principles, values and beliefs.

I'm not so sure....Islam in particular has a history of what you might call 'pornography' believe it or not (what is pornography though?) - just read the 1001 Nights which is a traditional 'Islamic' book if ever there was one and seems to only now be attracting censure.

Sex or even masturbation is actually not a sin in Islam too and so is never seen as 'dirty' so I don't think one can make a straight comparison but I take your point.

Quote:
The second would be speech consistent with core religious values. The disconnect, when it exists, is indeed hypocrisy. We must be careful in taking the next (fallacious) step, which some often do, in saying something like "See, they are hypocrites so pornography is ok."

Actually I think pornography IS ok. As an abstract.

It is 'not Ok' imo when it degrades or exploits women (or men), when it involves children or when it seeps into mainstream culture like these lame rap videos which seem to have nothing else to offer.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #13 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I'm not so sure....Islam in particular has a history of what you might call 'pornography' believe it or not (what is pornography though?) - just read the 1001 Nights which is a traditional 'Islamic' book if ever there was one and seems to only now be attracting censure.

Sex or even masturbation is actually not a sin in Islam too and so is never seen as 'dirty' so I don't think one can make a straight comparison but I take your point.

You get my point which is important here. I did not mean to profess a knowledge of Islamic doctrine, I just assumed it to be similar, in regard to this, to Judaism or Christianity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually I think pornography IS ok. As an abstract.

OK, but have you arrived at this belief/opinion because of the hypocrisy of those who speak against it. In other words do you say/think something like: "Well if those people are speaking against, but still using it, then pornography is ok?" I would argue that's a fallacious conclusion. It's basically a non sequitar. Arriving at your conclusion because you think it is healthy or normal or beneficial or at least non-harmful would be something different. And, of course, all of those reasons could be incorrect also.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #14 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK, but have you arrived at this belief/opinion because of the hypocrisy of those who speak against it. In other words do you say/think something like: "Well if those people are speaking against, but still using it, then pornography is ok?" I would argue that's a fallacious conclusion. It's basically a non sequitar. Arriving at your conclusion because you think it is healthy or normal or beneficial or at least non-harmful would be something different. And, of course, all of those reasons could be incorrect also.

No, I think that sex is ok. Not a sin or anything - just normal in its various forms.

Then I think 'religion' (as opposed to spirituality for want of a better word) aims to control people and one of the ways it does this is to make them conflicted about sex. Having established the prime human urge as 'a sin' they can then be controlled en masse. Or put another way, to forbid sex and outlaw it gives the most access to all of humanity - more so, say, than just outlawing picking your nose.

Then, when people have been subject to this control over centuries, the natural human urge tries to reassert itself - which is why pornography exists.

In a society that was sexually free there would be no need for it. So it is a symptom of a deeper disease but is not wrong in itself.

An analogy would be someone who feels irritable because they are ill. The irritability is not the problem and is even 'good' in so far as it is alerting to a deeper problem.

But there's nothing wrong with it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #15 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No, I think that sex is ok.

So does God, if you read the bible anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Then I think 'religion' (as opposed to spirituality for want of a better word) aims to control people and one of the ways it does this is to make them conflicted about sex. Having established the prime human urge as 'a sin' they can then be controlled en masse. Or put another way, to forbid sex and outlaw it gives the most access to all of humanity - more so, say, than just outlawing picking your nose.

Then, when people have been subject to this control over centuries, the natural human urge tries to reassert itself - which is why pornography exists.

In a society that was sexually free there would be no need for it. So it is a symptom of a deeper disease but is not wrong in itself.

An analogy would be someone who feels irritable because they are ill. The irritability is not the problem and is even 'good' in so far as it is alerting to a deeper problem.

But there's nothing wrong with it.

OK.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #16 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So does God, if you read the bible anyway.

Is that true though I wonder? The OT God is definitely conflicted about sex and there are many dubious passages that underpin the certainty that the writer - ie not God - has numerous sexual issues.

Because that's what we are talking about - human writers. Nowhere in the Bible is the author claimed to be God but rather it is a book by humans about God.

And as such they do seem to have varying degrees of sexual neuroses. Paul would be a classic example of a repressed individual scared of sexuality to the point of psychosis imo.

Having said that though, there are numerous erotic passages in the Bible which I would class as pornographic - the descriptions of oral sex in the Song of Songs spring immediately to mind.

However, these are never accepted for what they are - I once had hysterics and had to leave the room when I heard a famous fundie preacher describe Song as 'a love song to the Lord'.

Either he hasn't read it or......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Is that true though I wonder? The OT God is definitely conflicted about sex and there are many dubious passages that underpin the certainty that the writer - ie not God - has numerous sexual issues.

Because that's what we are talking about - human writers. Nowhere in the Bible is the author claimed to be God but rather it is a book by humans about God.

And as such they do seem to have varying degrees of sexual neuroses. Paul would be a classic example of a repressed individual scared of sexuality to the point of psychosis imo.

Having said that though, there are numerous erotic passages in the Bible which I would class as pornographic - the descriptions of oral sex in the Song of Songs spring immediately to mind.

However, these are never accepted for what they are - I once had hysterics and had to leave the room when I heard a famous fundie preacher describe Song as 'a love song to the Lord'.

Either he hasn't read it or......

The passages about sex and immorality in the bible are not taking issue with sex itself, but the act outside of a committed relationship (marriage for example). And you, of all people, should be easily able to see that.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #18 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Err..... because they have dedicated their lives to fucking up other people's ?

How exactly have they done that?

Quote:

Let me turn it back to you: let's say there ARE Islamic terrorists who hate you....let's say they DO despise your 'freedom' - who the fuck cares? WHY should they care?

Because fundamentalist Christians are not trying to kill me.

Quote:

The answer is the same: the people who care are the ones in danger of being fucked up by it.

Obviously those who are of the same ilk are not in such danger no? Thus they can afford not to care....maybe, just maybe, they don't care because they are the ones actually DOING the fucking other people up...

How are you...how is anyone, really in danger from said Christians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

The passages about sex and immorality in the bible are not taking issue with sex itself, but the act outside of a committed relationship (marriage for example). And you, of all people, should be easily able to see that.

I'm not sure what his fetish is with attacking conservative/traditional Christians. It's ironic, really. Like many liberal-progressives, Sego professes that we should all be tolerant and accepting of one another. Yet, Sego cannot seem to wrap his brain around conservative Christians' existence. It's like the mere fact that they believe as they do eats at him.
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post #19 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

How exactly have they done that?



Because fundamentalist Christians are not trying to kill me.



How are you...how is anyone, really in danger from said Christians?



I'm not sure what his fetish is with attacking conservative/traditional Christians. It's ironic, really. Like many liberal-progressives, Sego professes that we should all be tolerant and accepting of one another. Yet, Sego cannot seem to wrap his brain around conservative Christians' existence. It's like the mere fact that they believe as they do eats at him.

I will be really entertained by his response. Or horrified.. Either way, I expect something completely alternate from a reasoned answer. Especially when you consider that he tries to compare a "Conservative Christian" with a "Terrorist" of any stripe and the Christian is actually more frightening and nefarious...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #20 of 116
Terrorists allegedly hate us for our freedoms. They allegedly want to take our freedoms away.

Conservatives are the ones that are the biggest proponents for laws restricting freedoms when those freedoms conflict with their dubious religious values.

So, let's just rephrase things here...

Conservatives don't want terrorists to take away the conservatives' freedom to choose which freedoms can be taken away from everyone.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #21 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Terrorists allegedly hate us for our freedoms. They allegedly want to take our freedoms away.

Conservatives are the ones that are the biggest proponents for laws restricting freedoms when those freedoms conflict with their dubious religious values.

So, let's just rephrase things here...

Conservatives don't want terrorists to take away the conservatives' freedom to choose which freedoms can be taken away from everyone.

Right, those two point correlate perfectly....
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #22 of 116
Cut the crap Noah. Conservatives are behind all sorts of invasions in individual freedoms. They are the vast majority of the ones against gay marriage. They are the ones against reproductive rights. They are the ones against selling liquor on Sundays. They are largely the ones behind censoring what we see and hear on television and radio. They are the ones telling us we are one nation under god. The first Bush said atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots.

Conservatives want to restrict our individual freedoms. They just want the freedom to restrict what they want.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #23 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Conservatives want to restrict our individual freedoms. They just want the freedom to restrict what they want.

Actually it is LIBERALS and PROGRESSIVES who want to restrict personal freedoms, grow government, and institute barriers to liberty...just look at what Bozo Obama has done so far!
post #24 of 116
So you are saying conservatives don't do any of the stuff I've listed? I at least gave some real examples.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #25 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Cut the crap Noah. Conservatives are behind all sorts of invasions in individual freedoms. They are the vast majority of the ones against gay marriage. They are the ones against reproductive rights. They are the ones against selling liquor on Sundays. They are largely the ones behind censoring what we see and hear on television and radio. They are the ones telling us we are one nation under god. The first Bush said atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots.

Conservatives want to restrict our individual freedoms. They just want the freedom to restrict what they want.

Yet, they want to be slaves to oil, coal and foreign corporations.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #26 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Conservatives and liberals* want to restrict our individual freedoms. They just want the freedom to restrict what they want. They each just have their pet restrictions.

TFTFY

*Where "liberals" are whatever the hell you want to call those people on the left, with a "D" next to their name, who everyone (including themselves) calls "liberal" or "progressive."

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #27 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Cut the crap Noah. Conservatives are behind all sorts of invasions in individual freedoms. They are the vast majority of the ones against gay marriage. They are the ones against reproductive rights. They are the ones against selling liquor on Sundays. They are largely the ones behind censoring what we see and hear on television and radio. They are the ones telling us we are one nation under god. The first Bush said atheists should not be considered citizens or patriots.

Conservatives want to restrict our individual freedoms. They just want the freedom to restrict what they want.

You can show examples from both sides of the aisle on this with very little effort. If anyone should cut the crap, it is you. And still it does not correlate making Conservative Religious people more dangerous than any terrorists...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #28 of 116
I didn't say they were more dangerous. I'm just saying they have similar motives because they both want to restrict the freedoms of the general populace as to conform to their religious idiocy.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #29 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I didn't say they were more dangerous. I'm just saying they have similar motives because they both want to restrict the freedoms of the general populace as to conform to their religious idiocy.

Then from that stand, every politician is just like a terrorist as well when they make people conform to their political idiocy through restriction of freedoms... We are governed, and surrounded by a nation of terrorists. All around the world, terrorists abound. Lets make that term mean even less than it does now. That way, when it is used for a real situation, not one person will hardly even bat an eye...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #30 of 116
Oh don't be obtuse.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #31 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I didn't say they were more dangerous. I'm just saying they have similar motives because they both want to restrict the freedoms of the general populace as to conform to their religious idiocy.

Other than the word "religious" (maybe) you could say the exact same thing about so-called liberals/progressives/leftists/democrats in the US. Are you also sating their motives are the same as terrorists because they "want to restrict the freedoms of the general populace as to conform to their secular idiocy"?

I'm betting...no.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #32 of 116
Another thread about the evil, dumb, stupid, "Fundie US Xians" by none other than seg.

The mistake I see here with once again another thread to "expose" "Fundie US Xians" is the simple reality that all mankind is fallen.

fallen because they view porn? No

fallen because they are hypocrits? No

fallen because they waste time reading AI PO? No

fallen because they are left wing? No

fallen because they are right wing? No

fallen because they.... No

fallen because they.... No

and ((((((((((((((( No ))))))))))))))))

We are all fallen.. Period.

Now the trick of the weak minded one is to decide who to single out to argue is the "more fallen one". May I suggest this is a waste of time.

So for some self described Christians they choose to single out "homosexuals" as more fallen ones.

So for seg it is sport (or whatever it is) to single out "Fundie US Xians " as the more fallen ones.

weak.

No matter who does it or why they do it, it is just a complete waste of good energy and time to sort out "these people" or "those people" fill in the blank, and argue that they are more fallen than the next group.


need I remind you that we all fall short of the Glory.

as humanity we can condemn or we can get our hands dirty and lift people up.

What the hell are you doing?

I for one like the approach of Dan Merchant

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...ordsaveus.html

http://www.lordsaveusthemovie.com/home.html


Do something positive and meet people where they are and be a force for lifting up or,,

Point the finger, accuse and condemn.

I for one prefer the former option. How about you seg?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #33 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh don't be obtuse.

I'm being obtuse? You are taking the time with a straight face to draw lines btween actual terrorists and conservative Christians as if there is a true correlation to be made and when I call BS I am being obtuse. If I am misinterpreting your point, please, Set me straight. Are you just trying to be sarcastic or are you seriously making the point I am seeing?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #34 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Another thread about the evil, dumb, stupid, "Fundie US Xians" by none other than seg.

The mistake I see here with once again another thread to "expose" "Fundie US Xians" is the simple reality that all mankind is fallen.

fallen because they view porn? No

fallen because they are hypocrits? No

fallen because they waste time reading AI PO? No

fallen because they are left wing? No

fallen because they are right wing? No

fallen because they.... No

fallen because they.... No

and ((((((((((((((( No ))))))))))))))))

We are all fallen.. Period.

Now the trick of the weak minded one is to decide who to single out to argue is the "more fallen one". May I suggest this is a waste of time.

So for some self described Christians they choose to single out "homosexuals" as more fallen ones.

So for seg it is sport (or whatever it is) to single out "Fundie US Xians " as the more fallen ones.

weak.

No matter who does it or why they do it, it is just a complete waste of good energy and time to sort out "these people" or "those people" fill in the blank, and argue that they are more fallen than the next group.


need I remind you that we all fall short of the Glory.

as humanity we can condemn or we can get our hands dirty and lift people up.

What the hell are you doing?

I for one like the approach of Dan Merchant

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...ordsaveus.html

http://www.lordsaveusthemovie.com/home.html


Do something positive and meet people where they are and be a force for lifting up or,,

Point the finger, accuse and condemn.

I for one prefer the former option. How about you seg?

Fellows

Nicely spoken. I like how you presented the point. I think it will be misinterpreted, but I still think it was well stated.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #35 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Oh don't be obtuse.

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post #36 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Another thread about the evil, dumb, stupid, "Fundie US Xians" by none other than seg.

I've said it a hundred times. Maybe a thousand. I'll say it yet again.

To me:

Fundie Xians = are the twisted perverse face of the sickos who have corrupted the teaching of Jesus to whom I accord the utmost respect.

When I use the term 'Fundie Xians' I refer to the above.

Christians = noble good people who try to to do the best they can with tolerance and compassion and in whom one may see the Christ nature.

When I use the term 'Christians' I refer to the above or else the historical abstract concept.

To compare, if anyone were interested in Islam or if I felt there might be an interesting debate I might post similar threads about that. Though there is the danger that the Islamophobes - who do exist and who are far more virulently anti-Islam than I am anti-Christian (ie I am not at all) - would crawl out of the woodwork.

If I did I would phrase it exactly the same:

Fundie Islamists = are the twisted perverse face of the sickos who have corrupted the teaching of Muhammad to whom I accord the utmost respect.

When I use the term 'Fundie Islamists' I refer to the above.

Muslims = noble good people who try to to do the best they can with tolerance and compassion and in whom one may also see the Christ nature.

When I use the term 'Muslims' I refer to the above or else the historical abstract concept.

So I don't really see the problem...unless you are a Fundie Xian - but then you should just accept yourself and be it....that's what the hypocrites in the subject of this thread didn't so isn't it?


Quote:
The mistake I see here with once again another thread to "expose" "Fundie US Xians" is the simple reality that all mankind is fallen.

YOU see that. To me that is a disgrace but it is a disgrace you are free to believe.

There is no way it is 'ok' to believe this or spread it. No way. It is psychologically debilitating and cripples people.

Someone above objected to the comparison to terrorists - not surprising as they may well be a literalist - but look beneath the surface and see the damage (if you can) and it could even be far worse.

It certainly is in Africa where people are dying because the Church teaches not to use condoms. It certainly is if you are one of the tens of thousands of abused children...

It certainly is if you are the recipient of the historical racism and hate fostered by Fundies.

Quote:
Do something positive and meet people where they are and be a force for lifting up or,,

Point the finger, accuse and condemn.

I for one prefer the former option. How about you seg?

It depends doesn't it?

My opinion on this sort of thing is that life is a journey to the God-nature or Christ-nature. Such a journey is very hard and the chances are millions to one against actually making it. Very few have and you know who they are: Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Moses etc...

The only hope is to not pretend do be other than you are and go from there sincerely trying to make it one step at a time. If you pretend to already have it - ie by being a 'good Christian' or 'a good Muslim' or even 'born again' then you will never, ever get it. Because you think you have it.

Sure..you will never get it anyway because the chances are millions to one against but still...... it's a matter of conscience.

This, btw is why Fundies push the instantaneous 'accept Jesus and all will be ok immediately' line. Because it's just too hard to make the journey....

So - from my perspective - you could say that such threads as this ARE constructive and positive. Or else you could say that smashing up the tables in the tabernacle was negative. Up to you.

In any case, as I say above, I am just being myself. No more no less.

How about you Fellows?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #37 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I've said it a hundred times. Maybe a thousand. I'll say it yet again.

To me:

Fundie Xians = are the twisted perverse face of the sickos who have corrupted the teaching of Jesus to whom I accord the utmost respect.

When I use the term 'Fundie Xians' I refer to the above.

Christians = noble good people who try to to do the best they can with tolerance and compassion and in whom one may see the Christ nature.

When I use the term 'Christians' I refer to the above or else the historical abstract concept.


Please expand on just who / what these "Fundie Xians" are to you? I am quite curious to get to the root of what it is that seems to bother you so heavily about this group of people that you refer.
Quote:


-In response to the statement: all mankind is fallen

seg replies:

-YOU see that. To me that is a disgrace but it is a disgrace you are free to believe.

There is no way it is 'ok' to believe this or spread it. No way. It is psychologically debilitating and cripples people.

Seg I hate to burst your bubble here but I respectfully disagree.

"there is no way it is 'ok' to believe this or spread it? Really? How do you come to this conclusion? Who are you to say what is or is not 'ok' etc.? Are you the thought police?

"It is psychologically debilitating and cripples people." Really? Could you please explain this? This quote of yours merrits some explanation. I mean it really is a pile of accusation if I may suggest. No?


Quote:
It certainly is in Africa where people are dying because the Church teaches not to use condoms. It certainly is if you are one of the tens of thousands of abused children...

Are you talking about the views of the Catholic Church? based in Rome, Italy rather than "Porn viewing 'Fundie Xians' living in conservative southern states in America?

Not sure which Christians you are bashing now.... Please explain just exactly who you have a problem with now. Italian fundies? Do they watch porn over there as well? I mean what are you saying seg anyway? What is your point? Do you have a point?

I really am begining to believe that you don't have a point to make other than showing your comtempt for your neighbor.

Is a stament like "Love your neighbor" too fundie for you?? I seriously wonder if it is.

Quote:
It certainly is if you are the recipient of the historical racism and hate fostered by Fundies.

Again I will remind you (ALL) people are fallen short of the Glory. What part of that don't you seem to agree with or understand?

Quote:
This, btw is why Fundies push the instantaneous 'accept Jesus and all will be ok immediately' line. Because it's just too hard to make the journey....

I agree that for some in America the "instantaneous 'accept Jesus and all will be ok immediately' line" as you refer to is a valid critique.

Many in America are short sighted, shallow and you guessed it (fall short of the Glory).

Thank God for a saving grace and saviour in Jesus that we have in Christ.

We are NOT worthy Seg.

Not one of us is worthy. It is a gift of grace...

Not to go all fundie on you by any means....

Heaven forbid.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #38 of 116
Fellowship, I think you're seeing an attack on Christianity here where there is none. The real attack is on Hypocrisy.

Whether you like it or not, there are American Christians -- a lot of them -- who use fundamentalists ideas from the Old Testament to criticize people. The arguments these people make, and the pretense that their stance is a holy one is the general way certain politicians win elections.

It is also a fact that many of these people described in the above paragraph are some of the most hypocritical people on the planet. That is the subject of this thread.

I cannot pinpoint the exact makeup of Segovius' subject of this thread, but I can tell that you're not incluuded in the title group. Although you do believe in certain fundamentalist ideas from the Old Testament (New Earth Creationism, anti-choice) that I disagree with, I don't see in you the urge to attack homosexuals, Muslims and Hollywood that I see in those I (and presumably Segovius) would call "Fundie Xian".

So you've got nothing to worry about. An attack on self-proclaimed Christians' hypocrisy (these people who are not very good Christians, if they could be called Christians at all) , is not an attack on the good Christians who live their life based on the type of values that you yourself believe in.

Surely you are not proclaiming that all self-procaimed Christians in America are good people, and should not be subject to criticism at all?
post #39 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post


Surely you are not proclaiming that all self-procaimed Christians in America are good people, and should not be subject to criticism at all?

No not at all.

I appreciate your reply and would expand on a few things. I too share with critique of the Church in my own day to day life. I have been critical of certain modern methods to conduct Church see my thread "Church or the World" http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=111155

I don't have a problem with criticism as I do it myself. I wish to deny this of nobody including seg.

What I see with seg however is what seems to me unless I am mistaken, an attempt to discredit Christianity with attacks against even the apostle Paul and his "sexuality" as Seg see's it. Seg's quote from one of his replies to another poster above in this thread:
"Paul would be a classic example of a repressed individual scared of sexuality to the point of psychosis imo.

Critique ok? Sure it is.

It is completely ok to critique and paint a picture of the body of Christ.

I just don't see the world as Seg does.

Seg's posts are indeed about condemning american "xian" "fundies", The apostle Paul, most likely the Catholic Church due to their stance on condom use.

and on and on.

So to start another thread about american xian fundies is really just cover for a broad ranting session of Seg once again.

A session to harbor contempt for his neighbor. To rub their nose in what he (seg) see's as their dog poop if you will.

I think if Seg is so brilliant he might do what Jesus would do.

Lift people out of their mess.

Their shortcomings.

Their sin.

But I seem to see (unless am wrong) seg would rather point the finger and condemn or at least imply something of a negative nature about this group he loves to harp on.

American xian fundies.

To do what seg is doing is not merely critique. It is to point fingers and accuse.

The real motivation I see here is for any christian to have to submit to seg's world
through this thought control grid:

If I share my faith will I be viewed as one of those porn viewing, southern, un-educated american consevative xian fundies.

It is a trick and it is weak.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #40 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Please expand on just who / what these "Fundie Xians" are to you? I am quite curious to get to the root of what it is that seems to bother you so heavily about this group of people that you refer.

I would say people like Falwell, Benny Hinn, Phelps, Cerullo....these kind of people. Though I would rather not have named them - I know, that makes me a hypocrite too - because I think it's ok to talk in the abstract and still be 'not judging' but when you name names then perhaps you are condemning a bit. Which I don't really agree with but there..I did it anyway

Anyway, I would not put you in the bracket....I get the feeling you think I do...which saddens me a little because it strongly suggests you haven't really read what I've said to you in the past when I always thought we understood each other better than that - maybe not

Quote:
SSeg I hate to burst your bubble here but I respectfully disagree.

"there is no way it is 'ok' to believe this or spread it? Really? How do you come to this conclusion? Who are you to say what is or is not 'ok' etc.? Are you the thought police?

"It is psychologically debilitating and cripples people." Really? Could you please explain this? This quote of yours merrits some explanation. I mean it really is a pile of accusation if I may suggest. No?

That's fine! I kind of guessed you would!! First I will answer the 'who am I to say it?' bit...I am a human just like you...I have as much right to say it as you do to say the opposite. No Police involved, thought or otherwise.....that's a bit strong Fellows.

Re the actual accusation. I have much experience of it. It crippled me for a long, long time. I used to wake up screaming and sweating scared of hell till I was about 10.

When I was 5 my parents took me into a room and told me I was going to die in everlasting hellfire away from them unless I repented.

I got over it. It took time. I had friends who weren't so lucky - one committed suicide later in life (because of feelings of worthlessness directly related to his being brainwashed that he was 'fallen'). Two died of overdoses. It is all related for sure...I had a massive drug habit myself at 18 for the very same reason.

You see if you are taught from year zero that you are 'fallen' and a 'sinner' and will go to hell unless you accept Jesus then all is ok IF YOU DO. Fine and dandy.

But with respect Fellows - I do not believe you know what it means to be taught that from year zero that you are 'fallen' and then try to live your life without 'accepting Jesus'.

You see you think from your pov that it is a great gift and this will save you - and of course if it were all true then that would be exactly right.

But some people are not able to believe that - and they are the people who get 'crippled'. You should at least acknowledge that.

Quote:
Are you talking about the views of the Catholic Church? based in Rome, Italy rather than "Porn viewing 'Fundie Xians' living in conservative southern states in America?

I am talking about all corrupters of Christ's teaching. The Catholic Church would certainly fall into that category. But I am painting broad strokes which encompass both!

Quote:
Not sure which Christians you are bashing now.... Please explain just exactly who you have a problem with now. Italian fundies? Do they watch porn over there as well? I mean what are you saying seg anyway? What is your point? Do you have a point?

Easy answer: none. No bashing.

Look, let's make it easier: round up all those who profess to have the Christ-nature. If they do ok. If they don't that is who I mean. They are the Fundies.

Now as regards yourself: I do not see what your problem is.

It seems to me that your position can only be tenable if you believe there are NO false or hypocritical Christians. If you DO believe there are then you are saying exactly the same as me - no more no less. So what's the problem?

Quote:
I really am begining to believe that you don't have a point to make other than showing your comtempt for your neighbor.

Now I know for SURE that you have either not read my posts in other threads where we seemed to understand each other or else you disregard them.

Either position is not actually worthy of debate I think but I will wait and see what else you have before I give up on you totally.

Quote:
Is a stament like "Love your neighbor" too fundie for you?? I seriously wonder if it is.

Once again:

I AM TALKING ABOUT XIANS WHO CLAIM TO DO THIS AND DO NOT ACTUALLY DO IT.

What exactly is your problem with that? Are you seriously suggesting that ALL Christians do love their neighbour????

Quote:
Again I will remind you (ALL) people are fallen short of the Glory. What part of that don't you seem to agree with or understand?

I understand it better than you.

I just happen to disagree with it. Can you allow me that? I wonder......

Quote:
I agree that for some in America the "instantaneous 'accept Jesus and all will be ok immediately' line" as you refer to is a valid critique.

Fellows...I have news for you: if God exists then BY DEFINITION YOU FALL SHORT. HE IS GOD AND YOU ARE NOT!!!!!!!!

Why would there be any question about it? Why would it even come up? Surely you don't think you could actually REACH the glory do you? Very dodgy.....

Now I am going to answer your subsequent post which I have not yet read and - depending on how I feel afterwards - I may well have nothing more to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

What I see with seg however is what seems to me unless I am mistaken, an attempt to discredit Christianity with attacks against even the apostle Paul and his "sexuality" as Seg see's it.

That's Strike 1 - I engaged with you in your Church thread (which is actually the exact polar opposite of this thread really - ie the same thing but from the different side of the fence [except you are right of course and I am wrong hahah]) and mentioned my beliefs about what Christianity could be.

You disregard that and ascribe to me something false.

Quote:
Seg's quote from one of his replies to another poster above in this thread:

"Paul would be a classic example of a repressed individual scared of sexuality to the point of psychosis imo.

Critique ok? Sure it is.

It is completely ok to critique and paint a picture of the body of Christ.

The idea that Paul was usurping the teaching of Jesus is as old as his own teaching as well you know. If you had been around then you would have had to choose between Paul and the Jerusalem Church.

Ie between one of the disciples and Jesus' family and someone who had never met him.

Presumably you would choose the latter as you do now but don't knock me for choosing the former. As for the sexual aspects then there is a whole area of scholarly study devoted to this and it is quite clear when viewed through a Freudian lens.

I do not say it is TRUE. I say it can be viewed that way and who knows? Perhaps that's the way it was...just because you CAN'T believe it means nothing.

Quote:
I just don't see the world as Seg does.

No. We see it differently.But then I am not telling you you are 'bashing me' or 'bashing atheists' whenever you post your beliefs.

But when I post mine you charge me with that -

Quote:
A session to harbor contempt for his neighbor. To rub their nose in what he (seg) see's as their dog poop if you will.

But I have never had contempt for you. Actually that's strike 2....... misrepresenting ...

Actually I won't bother with the rest. I'm done now.....I won't engage with you again but one thing: I think you should stop throwing around we are all sinners' line... you may be but some people do not live their lives like that and it's not down to you to try to make out they do.

I'll grab my coat and head down to the loose women and drug-fuelled hell-hounds at Lucifer's Bar on 666 Demon Street!!

Don't wait up....I may be some time.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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