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post #41 of 116
Two points here segovius if I might...

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I am talking about all corrupters of Christ's teaching. The Catholic Church would certainly fall into that category. But I am painting broad strokes which encompass both!

Broad and unfounded strokes to be sure; curious though, if you honestly feel the Catholic Church is not advancing Christ's teaching, who, pray tell, do you feel is? Al Qaeda?

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Look, let's make it easier: round up all those who profess to have the Christ-nature. If they do ok. If they don't that is who I mean. They are the Fundies.

Almost every Christian faith, and certainly Catholic belief, advances the veritas that as the Son of God, curiously enough, only Jesus Christ alone could have "Christ-nature" and that mankind, flawed that he was, could only attempt to imitate such nature and follow in his path. Hence, the Apostles as fishers of men. I do realize that this dogma is a bit above Theology 101 but I hope you can follow it since you touched upon this line of reasoning in your post.
post #42 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Two points here segovius if I might...

Broad and unfounded strokes to be sure; curious though, if you honestly feel the Catholic Church is not advancing Christ's teaching, who, pray tell, do you feel is? Al Qaeda?

Umm...I think there is a fair bit of doubt as to whether al Qaeda actually exist so I'm guessing no.

But to address the question: I don't think one advances Christ's teaching but rather lives it.

I've known quite a few who do. No-one I can think of in the public eye so I can't give an example but they're out there.

Quote:
Almost every Christian faith, and certainly Catholic belief, advances the veritas that as the Son of God, curiously enough, only Jesus Christ alone could have "Christ-nature" and that mankind, flawed that he was, could only attempt to imitate such nature and follow in his path. Hence, the Apostles as fishers of men. I do realize that this dogma is a bit above Theology 101 but I hope you can follow it since you touched upon this line of reasoning in your post.

Not really, Nestorians, Manachaens, Celtic Church, Eastern Orthodox - many do not hold Christ to have been divine and most did not until the Council of Nicea.

I also think that theology in the mainstream - see Thomas a Kempis for example - does actually hold that it is possible to hold the Christ nature and even Paul - EVEN PAUL - so sadly misguided and lacking in so many ways actually managed to grasp this no?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #43 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Umm...I think there is a fair bit of doubt as to whether al Qaeda actually exist so I'm guessing no.

Doubt as to whether Al Qaeda actually exists? Wow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

But to address the question: I don't think one advances Christ's teaching but rather lives it.I've known quite a few who do. No-one I can think of in the public eye so I can't give an example but they're out there.

Just so I understand your premise... you disbelieve Catholics follow Christ (your earlier premise) but when pressed to respond to who you believe actually follows Christ you can't name a single person. Got it...

post #44 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Doubt as to whether Al Qaeda actually exists? Wow...

Do you speak Arabic btw? How would you translate 'al Qaeda' ?

Could you name a member? Don't say OBL btw - he never uses the term.

Quote:
Just so I understand your premise... you disbelieve Catholics follow Christ (your earlier premise) but when pressed to respond to who you believe actually follows Christ you can't name a single person

I didn't say that......why are you lying? Is that a Christian thing to do? Surely you are not allowed to lie - I remember it in that cute little tablet graphic you showed once.

I said this:

I've known quite a few who do. No-one I can think of in the public eye so I can't give an example but they're out there.


Which I think is very clear: Ie I know some but none that you would know as they are not publicly known.

So either you are not capable of understanding basic English or else you are lying.

Which is it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #45 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Umm...I think there is a fair bit of doubt as to whether al Qaeda actually exist so I'm guessing no.

But to address the question: I don't think one advances Christ's teaching but rather lives it.

I've known quite a few who do. No-one I can think of in the public eye so I can't give an example but they're out there.

Ok, I'll bite. What would one have to do in your opinion to live up to Christ's teachings?
  • Love you neighbor as yourself.
  • Faith, Hope, and love and the greatest of these is love.
  • No greater love has any but that they lay down their life for a friend.
  • Love you enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
I assume all those have something to do with it?

Quote:
Not really, Nestorians, Manachaens, Celtic Church, Eastern Orthodox - many do not hold Christ to have been divine and most did not until the Council of Nicea.

I also think that theology in the mainstream - see Thomas a Kempis for example - does actually hold that it is possible to hold the Christ nature and even Paul - EVEN PAUL - so sadly misguided and lacking in so many ways actually managed to grasp this no?

Are you speaking of the Born Again theology, old nature passes away? Or something different?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #46 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


I'll grab my coat and head down to the loose women and drug-fuelled hell-hounds at Lucifer's Bar on 666 Demon Street!!

Don't wait up....I may be some time.


I am a big believer in reasoning with one another and I don't ever want to claim to have all the "right" answers much less the wrong ones

But I can say that I may differ with you on some matters but that does not make me dislike you. I have said this countless times.

I think if I read you correctly because I don't intend to misrepresent. You don't think humanity sins nor by extention would it need a saviour.

If this is you thought I respect that. I completely disagree bit I respect your right to disagree with my thoughts.

I am sorry for your childhood and fear of hell. I am sorry for your friends who took their life.

I can't begin to understand what kind of things took place which may have led to these things and I will admit I can't begin to understand.

I can try to understand but to be quite honest I will not claim to even know how to come close to fully understanding.

I do personally believe Jesus died for our sins and that we are sinners in need of a saviour.

Peace Seg.
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #47 of 116
Fellows, you can't claim to believe in reasoning if you don't subscribe to the fundamental precepts of reason. When you make an assertion, you have to back it up. I'm glad you personally believe in Jesus, but reason dictates you should have some real evidence to support that stance...

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #48 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Ok, I'll bite. What would one have to do in your opinion to live up to Christ's teachings?
  • Love you neighbor as yourself.
  • Faith, Hope, and love and the greatest of these is love.
  • No greater love has any but that they lay down their life for a friend.
  • Love you enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
I assume all those have something to do with it?

That would do for a start for sure.... but I would not say those are as easy as some might think.

Quote:
Are you speaking of the Born Again theology, old nature passes away? Or something different?

I am speaking of old natures passing away but I don't personally believe anyone can do it for you. More that it is a lifelong effort of your own....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I am a big believer in reasoning with one another and I don't ever want to claim to have all the "right" answers much less the wrong ones

<-- Snip -->

I don't want to fall out with you Fellows - apologies if I sometimes come across as a bit negative. No excuse really!!

Peace too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Fellows, you can't claim to believe in reasoning if you don't subscribe to the fundamental precepts of reason. When you make an assertion, you have to back it up. I'm glad you personally believe in Jesus, but reason dictates you should have some real evidence to support that stance...

It's not true in all cases though is it? Philosophy and Metaphysics can be a form of speculative reason with no evidence at all.

I would contend he only needs to back it up if he is trying to establish it as the norm or prove it as a contention. If it is just his belief and he is commenting on it he does not need to prove it does he?

I submit that it is quite possible to just believe something if one does not claim to be rational or care about anything else: one can just believe because one believes no?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #49 of 116
I don't think that Fellows will admit that his belief in jesus is irrational. If he would, then fine, your argument would hold some water.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #50 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I don't think that Fellows will admit that his belief in jesus is irrational. If he would, then fine, your argument would hold some water.

The thing which makes me laugh out loud is the circle of this merry-go-round.

Seg, BR, myself and over and over. We are stuck in some kind of eternal debate. But I think it is great that we all have our perspectives and question as we do.

If believing that Jesus is who he said he was is irrational then I am guilty as charged.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #51 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That would do for a start for sure.... but I would not say those are as easy as some might think.



I am speaking of old natures passing away but I don't personally believe anyone can do it for you. More that it is a lifelong effort of your own....

It is not easy. Agreed.

As for the second part, God is not limited.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #52 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

The thing which makes me laugh out loud is the circle of this merry-go-round.

Seg, BR, myself and over and over. We are stuck in some kind of eternal debate. But I think it is great that we all have our perspectives and question as we do.

If believing that Jesus is who he said he was is irrational then I am guilty as charged.

Fellows

So when is irrationality accepted, or even lauded, in any other arena? When you were renovating and flipping homes, could you make wild claims about how much time things should take or how much things should cost without providing a single shred of evidence?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #53 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

God is not limited.

Assertion stated. No evidence provided. Assertion tossed out.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #54 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So when is irrationality accepted, or even lauded, in any other arena? When you were renovating and flipping homes, could you make wild claims about how much time things should take or how much things should cost without providing a single shred of evidence?

I built new construction. Never actually flipped homes.

I did use a budget on each project and I tried very hard to stick to this budget. I was rational all the way.

Now I bought the lots which I built homes on. Something tells me that you would like to know the details of the title. The survey etc. Boundaries of each lot. Who did I buy the lot from etc. you know rational things.

Where did the land actually come from however?

I think if you go back far enough you realize that God created the land that I built homes on.

Now I don't know if this is rational for everyone or if I can prove anything to anyone about the origins of the land I built on but it is not crazy to believe that God created it in my view.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #55 of 116
No, if you go back far enough you can show that the Earth formed from the accretion disc surrounding the newly formed Sun. You go back even further and you get to the Big Bang. You don't get to arbitrarliy assign god as some sort of creator just because you don't know or understand the processes of how we got here on this planet on this day.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #56 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Now I don't know if this is rational for everyone or if I can prove anything to anyone about the origins of the land I built on but it is not crazy to believe that God created it in my view.

It depends on the mechanism surely?

To believe God created it with his hands is irrational imo because it goes against what we know from science. I do not think the same belief was irrational say at the time that the Genesis account was written. It is now.

If oth, the geological processes are seen as God creating then I don't think that is irrational as such.

We know how planets and even humans evolved so any idea of God has to slot into this. This is a good example of my objections to Literalist religion actually.

I think all should be subordinate to what we know and is proved. Evolution is not proved but when it is - as it surely will be, even if not in a Darwinian form - then any belief in God must adapt to this.

This is the problem with most religion actually - it cannot adapt and is mired in the past when life and civilization has moved on.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #57 of 116
But that's a dumb definition of god. It's kinda pointless, really. First, define your god, then I'll knock it down for you.

Ignosticism for the win?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #58 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

But that's a dumb definition of god. It's kinda pointless, really. First, define your god, then I'll knock it down for you.

Ignosticism for the win?

But you would then be irrational yourself - you are verging on it now actually.

No-one knows what happened before the big-bang or what set it in motion so if you say you DO know - or conversely (which is more your style hahah) that it WASN'T God then that is irrational.

Btw,it is also irrational - or possibly just arrogant, the two are symbiotically linked sometimes - to claim you could knock down any concept of God I could come up with.

Actually I could and would define God as something you probably (I hope) experience - for example, when I look in the sky and see the stars and the universe I am filled with a sense of awe and wonder.

Hopefully you are too.

I could (and would in some cases) call this God.

Seeing as we are presumably feeling the same thing you cannot 'knock down' the feeling and the actual experience we both share (not without being irrational) so the only thing you could do is 'knock down' what you think is my perception of God as an extrapolation from this. And you could not do this without referencing existing concepts of God from religious frameworks - ones I do not share. Therefore you cannot do what you claim as it is impossible. QED.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #59 of 116
Ok, so your sense of awe and wonder God is not the same god that pretty much everyone else on this board talks about. So yay, enjoy your sense of awe and wonder. It is pointless in a religious discussion.

You're just playing a shell game with the definition of god and it really doesn't get us anywhere.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #60 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Assertion stated. No evidence provided. Assertion tossed out.

Was not asserting to you. I would have a different argument to present to you if I felt the need to prove anything.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #61 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ok, so your sense of awe and wonder God is not the same god that pretty much everyone else on this board talks about. So yay, enjoy your sense of awe and wonder. It is pointless in a religious discussion.

You're just playing a shell game with the definition of god and it really doesn't get us anywhere.

So my definition is not acceptable to the authorities - ie YOU.

Wish I'd had this reply earlier when I was discussing with Fellows WHO and WHAT the Fundies are.

Forgot to add at that time that the Fundie-ism I referred to is not exclusively a religious phenomena - may not even be rooted in religion at all, forms of Fascism for example are also in this category - and you can have Atheist Fundies too.

Thanks for fixing my omission.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #62 of 116
Sego, the point is you aren't talking about the same god as everyone else is. You use a very, very different definition. You're moving the goal posts. I say it's dumb to believe in god and then you say god is a tree so it's irrational for you not to believe in a tree. It's like if I said I don't like bananas and you called me a racist because you define bananas as asians. You aren't really allowing any meaningful discussion here.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #63 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Sego, the point is you aren't talking about the same god as everyone else is. You use a very, very definition. You're moving the goal posts. I say it's dumb to believe in god and then you say god is a tree so it's irrational for you not to believe in a tree. It's like if I said I don't like bananas and you called me a racist because you define bananas as asians. You aren't really allowing any meaningful discussion here.

That's true - though I prefer to think I am not moving the goalposts but merely pushing them back upright after they've been listing at 45 degrees to the perpendicular.

But you're right, I am not talking about the same God but I am talking about the concept of 'God' in the abstract. I think this is valid because the concept of God arose from just such activities imo....

What is more likely:

a) That homo sapiens in the caves or on the plains looked in the sky at some point or felt wonder at things and went on to build on this sense of wonder to extrapolate (or construct if you prefer) 'God'

or

b) Homo Sapiens at an early stage of civilization or proto-civilization just made it all up as in a form of fictional narrative from the mind of some ur-Shakespeare

It seems to me that the idea of God first arose from people feeling this sense of wonder that you and I feel.

I am not arguing that this makes it TRUE just that this is where it comes from and as such you and I share a root experience that is essentially a religious one.

Some people may take that to 11 on the irrationality meter but that's where it starts.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #64 of 116
Why do you have to call awe and wonderment god? Why can't you just call awe and wonderment awe and wonderment? Why call it god and give it all the fucking terrible baggage that that word has earned over several thousand years?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #65 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Why do you have to call awe and wonderment god? Why can't you just call awe and wonderment awe and wonderment? Why call it god and give it all the fucking terrible baggage that that word has earned over several thousand years?

That's what I'm saying - and what you are ignoring.

The awe and wonderment is the thing that INSPIRED the concept of God in the first place.

When that happened there was no baggage.

If you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater then fine - just don't pass a law that means I have to as well.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #66 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The awe and wonderment is the thing that INSPIRED the concept of God in the first place.

God's creation of the universe and man, as depicted in Genesis, certainly deserves awe and wonderment. All too often man's limited intellectual capacity comes up short when rationalizing the God of his creation; those who know better do not try. That is the key; since man was created by God man is intellectually inferior of understanding the power of God. Worship of His magnificence and benevolence seems a far more appropriate path,
post #67 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

God's creation of the universe and man, as depicted in Genesis, certainly deserves awe and wonderment. All too often man's limited intellectual capacity comes up short when rationalizing the God of his creation; those who know better do not try. That is the key; since man was created by God man is intellectually inferior of understanding the power of God. Worship of His magnificence and benevolence seems a far more appropriate path,

Philosophers have a saying that a table is only a table if you know what a table is.

There's a similar idea in Zen where the Master and the student are looking at a mountain and the Master asks the student where the mountain ends and the sky begins. It is similar to the 'if a tree falls in the forest and there is no-one there to hear it...' koan.

What they all mean (in one sense) is that it is US - humans - who ascribe meaning to these things or labels if you prefer. I can argue that a sunset is God, you can argue that God is the old bloke in the OT smiting gays from a cloud and BR can argue that no conception of God could ever or did ever exist...

But the fact is that if we humans never existed the universe in all its awesome splendour would continue on and the sights would be just as awe-inspiring with no-one there to se them or argue about it on PO.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #68 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Philosophers have a saying that a table is only a table if you know what a table is.

Philosophers tend to overanalyze things and ascribe deeper meaning to simple issues... I know what a table is because it exists, it holds up my f**ing computer, and I am leaning against one now... that may be a crude rationalization but it is based in first person observation - that is far more revealing than philosophical generalizations.

In the same way man can not know God because God created man. Man is inferior to God's magnificence. Leave it at that...
post #69 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Philosophers tend to overanalyze things and ascribe deeper meaning to simple issues... I know what a table is because it exists, it holds up my f**ing computer, and I am leaning against one now... that may be a crude rationalization but it is based in first person observation - that is far more revealing than philosophical generalizations.

In the same way man can not know God because God created man. Man is inferior to God's magnificence. Leave it at that...

No...you are not grasping the point.

You know what a table is because you have been taught to recognize one. No way do you know what it is because it exists.

Members of primitive tribes who have never seen one for example would not immediately know what it is when they see one for the first time.

You may denigrate philosophical observation but that is the hilarious thing religions were always founded by philosophers - and you yourself claim to follow the teaching of one of the greatest philosophers. Of course your version is a diluted and corrupted decaf version where the philosophy has been stripped out but still...

How's the research going for that Stoning thread btw? I think we might need to start a countdown....you could do some research in the Old testament too...I hear that's where the idea originally came from.

Give us a shout when the thread goes live...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #70 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You know what a table is because you have been taught to recognize one. No way do you know what it is because it exists.

Our cat also uses our table and sits aside my MacBook as I type; I am quite sure this cat did not go to cat school to be schooled on the identity of the table. That sound was your point going poof!

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Members of primitive tribes who have never seen one for example would not immediately know what it is when they see one for the first time.

Native Americans were quite happy to accept all manner of items colonists produced, from firearms to tables, and adopted their use quite freely. Again, your point is neutered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You may denigrate philosophical observation but that is the hilarious thing religions were always founded by philosophers

Jesus Christ founded Christianity, the world's largest and most widespread religion. Was He a philosopher?

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

How's the research going for that Stoning thread btw? I think we might need to start a countdown....you could do some research in the Old testament too...I hear that's where the idea originally came from. Give us a shout when the thread goes live...

Barbaric and backward societies cling to cave man rituals and antiquated punishments that civilized man has long since abandoned. Iran's use of stoning for women as a punishment shows Iran, and other Muslim nations to be sure, to be little evolved from cave man generations. Most in the world acknowledge that Muslim nation's subjection of women - making them wear face coverings, stoning them as a punishment, etc. - is simply because Muslim men lack intelligence, Muslim men discriminate, and Muslim men do not wish to give women the same chances that they have,and that their society is backward. There is little point discussing this issue further.
post #71 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Our cat also uses our table and sits aside my MacBook as I type; I am quite sure this cat did not go to cat school to be schooled on the identity of the table. That sound was your point going poof!

Native Americans were quite happy to accept all manner of items colonists produced, from firearms to tables, and adopted their use quite freely. Again, your point is neutered.

Ok.... clearly you don't have the equipment to understand this concept let alone discuss it so let's leave it there.

Anyone else with views on the issue though feel free to chip in.

Quote:
Jesus Christ founded Christianity, the world's largest and most widespread religion. Was He a philosopher?

Absolutely. In fact he introduced some very original concepts that did not exist at any previous time.

Btw, I think you'll find Christianity was founded by Paul. And no he wasn't.

Quote:
Barbaric and backward societies cling to cave man rituals and antiquated punishments that civilized man has long since abandoned. Iran's use of stoning for women as a punishment shows Iran, and other Muslim nations to be sure, to be little evolved from cave man generations.

True - but the original idea comes from the Old Testament - something you believe to be the word of God.

So is God barbaric?

Or was it ok back then when 'God' commanded the stoning?

If it was ok then but not now what changed and how? Or is it just that you think Muslims are barbaric when they do it but the Israelites - and God - were enlightened when they did?

Btw, I know you don't know much about Iranian culture but the West is based on it to such an extent (along with Hispano-Muslim culture) that you wouldn't be sitting there not doing whatever it is you're doing without it.

Quote:
Most in the world acknowledge that Muslim nation's subjection of women - making them wear face coverings, stoning them as a punishment, etc. - is simply because Muslim men lack intelligence, Muslim men discriminate, and Muslim men do not wish to give women the same chances that they have,and that their society is backward. There is little point discussing this issue further.

Very true.... with such ignorance and borderline racism as you display as well as lack of comprehension of the most basic concepts there is no point whatsoever.

Admission of that may well be the most intelligent thing you have ever posted on here and shows at least a faint glimmer of self-awareness though perhaps you mean something else entirely so probably not.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #72 of 116
It would be nice if instead on finding something negative to report about those in other cultures / religions etc. we could find the good in our neighbors. Share in the good instead of sharing in the insults.

It is not that critique is off the table, but instead of always finding fault with our neighbor and condemning them for x,y,z would it not be more fruitful and productive to celebrate our strengths and what we all share in common?

This to me is a worthy goal we all should strive to reach before going after fundies in one country or muslim women in another.

Surly we can agree to do better to be a tiny tiny bit more respectful towards our neighbor no matter if we agree with them or not on all matters.

Am I wrong here?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #73 of 116
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

It would be nice if instead on finding something negative to report about those in other cultures / religions etc. we could find the good in our neighbors. Share in the good instead of sharing in the insults.

It is not that critique is off the table, but instead of always finding fault with our neighbor and condemning them for x,y,z would it not be more fruitful and productive to celebrate our strengths and what we all share in common?

This to me is a worthy goal we all should strive to reach before going after fundies in one country or muslim women in another.

Surly we can agree to do better to be a tiny tiny bit more respectful towards our neighbor no matter if we agree with them or not on all matters.

Am I wrong here?

Fellows

I wish it were possible Fellows, I wish it were possible...

I salute your efforts though Fellows.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #74 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Ok.... clearly you don't have the equipment to understand this concept let alone discuss it so let's leave it there.

Anyone else with views on the issue though feel free to chip in.

If you still feel someone is missing the point, calling them stupid does not strengthen yours. Try again, from another perspective. I see what you are saying, but it is not as profound as you are making it out to be. The simple fact that someone may not recognize the object as a "table" in word does not follow that they do not recognize the implication of what it represents. Something to place objects on.

Quote:
Absolutely. In fact he introduced some very original concepts that did not exist at any previous time.

Btw, I think you'll find Christianity was founded by Paul. And no he wasn't.

Jesus was more than a philosopher. But his intention, I agree, was not to found a religion. It was to start a new way of living. One that stemmed from love and understanding of God rather than fear and unknowing. Much of his points were not about how God was out to punish you, but how he was trying to draw all to Himself. For example, The Prodigal Son parable was not about the son, or the brother as much as it was about the father.

Quote:
True - but the original idea comes from the Old Testament - something you believe to be the word of God.

So is God barbaric?

Or was it ok back then when 'God' commanded the stoning?

If it was ok then but not now what changed and how? Or is it just that you think Muslims are barbaric when they do it but the Israelites - and God - were enlightened when they did?

Btw, I know you don't know much about Iranian culture but the West is based on it to such an extent (along with Hispano-Muslim culture) that you wouldn't be sitting there not doing whatever it is you're doing without it.

Really, Jews were the only ones who stoned people?

Quote:
Very true.... with such ignorance and borderline racism as you display as well as lack of comprehension of the most basic concepts there is no point whatsoever.

Admission of that may well be the most intelligent thing you have ever posted on here and shows at least a faint glimmer of self-awareness though perhaps you mean something else entirely so probably not.

Pot and kettle? Anyone you don't agree with are idiots, or borderline racists, or worse... It always seems to come down like that. The middle ground for conversation with you is very thin indeed.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #75 of 116
Wow, this particular group of posters all debating God and religion reminds me of 2005.
post #76 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's what I'm saying - and what you are ignoring.

The awe and wonderment is the thing that INSPIRED the concept of God in the first place.

When that happened there was no baggage.

If you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater then fine - just don't pass a law that means I have to as well.

So you're really promoting nothing more than god of the gaps. Amazing shit happened. We didn't understand it. god did it.

I don't find that very attractive at all. Just call it amazing awe and wonderment, hope one day we'll know more (or just be satisfied without the answer) and be done.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #77 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

'if a tree falls in the forest and there is no-one there to hear it...'

Yes, it makes a sound...unless the tree fell in a vacuum. Problem solved. NEXT QUESTION!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #78 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If you still feel someone is missing the point, calling them stupid does not strengthen yours. Try again, from another perspective. I see what you are saying, but it is not as profound as you are making it out to be. The simple fact that someone may not recognize the object as a "table" in word does not follow that they do not recognize the implication of what it represents. Something to place objects on.

But if I go around calling the table a sword and people give me quizzical looks and then I get all upset that people are infringing upon my rights to name things the way I want them even though it leads to nothing but confusion...

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #79 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

So is God barbaric?

No; third world societies are barbaric, or ignorant, as was most of your post. God shares none of the animality of man. Moreover, not accepting the barbaric nature of Muslim societies, as is clear from your post, makes you at very least complicit in their animality. That is why the civilized nations of the west dictate terms internationally, while the barbaric third world nations struggle to rise above their uncivilized nature...

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius;1677880...

with such ignorance and borderline racism as you display...

Amazing how you can post this yet defend Iran's subjection of women only shows that hypocrisy finds a home in your rationalization.
post #80 of 116
I sometimes wonder if this is just one person having a conversation with himself.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
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