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NYT: iPhone 4 antenna problems a result of 'weakness' in software - Page 3

post #81 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormj View Post

Sometimes the "best" is still shitty, but it's better than what it would be if it wasn't adjusted.

Are you saying the iPhone 4 is the best?
post #82 of 167
if tomorrow apple provides a recall or swap or duck tape or free bumper type of solution, i think they are still not finding the root cause. what really caused the issue is IOS network layer software code which is not able to sync up with its hardware chips. i have 2 cases to support it:

1: death grip. the grip aggregated the problem so that it can be easily reproduced. over the week, i have done many testings and each and every time is showing that once i released the grip, the problem goes away, even though the bar might be still only one. so the grip triggered IOS antenna software logic to kick in, but somehow the code either is in a loop or never be able to reach to convergence in a given time, thus the whole TCP/IP network layer, both TCP/IP stack and drivers, is hold up. once the grip is released, antenna software logic quickly completed and reset the whole network pipe.

2: i have encountered not just once but many times when iphone has 5 bars or 3 bars with bumper and holding is not the death grip style, IOS internet went down and i have to power cycle the phone to recover. i think this is more severe because it needs a power cycle to recover.

in both of above cases, voice side of iphone still works and i can still play games or read books which do not require internet.

based on the above observations, i think an IOS software patch can resolve the issue. and i do think it is not iphone-4-only issue, but generic IOS issue. in addition, the conditions to produce the first case is very easy, so it would be a quick fix. i am not sure on the 2nd case as it is harder to reproduce, thus might take long time to find a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Reception problems with the iPhone 4 are a result of "longstanding" problems also found in previous-generation iPhones, but the issue could potentially be fixed by a software fix, The New York Times reported Thursday evening.
post #83 of 167
yes, software will not compensate incoming signal strength. but i don't think the issue is caused by signal strength degradation, instead, it might be triggered by software which is not able to handle the sudden loss of signal.

i do respect apple engineers' capabilities and abilities to design a good product, though sometimes a new idea might need longer time to be mature. let us wait for any explanations from apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maczones View Post

I am an antenna engineer and the NYT reporter is not. Software will not and I repeat, will not compensate for loss of incoming signal strength. Any basic antenna engineer knows that touching an antenna produces attenuation that reduces the strength of the incoming RF signal. I cannot believe a company like Apple could have been so careless or just dumb to think it could get away with a design like this. The idea to prefer styling over good design practices has been violated again for the sake of money.
post #84 of 167
Jobs is an arrogant man. He was told that the design of the antenna was risky but he wanted what he wanted. Now Apple is going to pay with a decrease in its stock price. Stupid.
I knew something was going to happen in general. Apple is doing very well and that has lead to hubris.
This is a case where aesthetics took precedence over sound engineering.
I still love my iphone 4. HTC, Droid none offer the complete solution like the iphone.
NONE!!!!!!
post #85 of 167
This sight sums up the signal problems with other cellphones pretty well:

http://liberateiphone.blogspot.com/

It is clearly not an problem unique to Apple, but the PR problem is.
post #86 of 167
You are not an antenna engineer, your mail sounds like you are a guy pretending to be one just to get your point across with some 'credibility'.

And this is not about 'basic antenna engineering', but 'complex mobile engineering'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maczones View Post

I am an antenna engineer and the NYT reporter is not. Software will not and I repeat, will not compensate for loss of incoming signal strength. Any basic antenna engineer knows that touching an antenna produces attenuation that reduces the strength of the incoming RF signal. I cannot believe a company like Apple could have been so careless or just dumb to think it could get away with a design like this. The idea to prefer styling over good design practices has been violated again for the sake of money.
post #87 of 167
If APPLE could have issued a software fix that addressed the antenna issue they already would have, or would have at least announced that the fix is forthcoming.
Don't hold your breath waiting for Steve Jobs to say they have a fix.

Be assured that APPLE will handle this issue to everyones satisfaction and wind up a winner in the end. (as they have also done)
post #88 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by austingaijin View Post

This sight sums up the signal problems with other cellphones pretty well:

http://liberateiphone.blogspot.com/

It is clearly not an problem unique to Apple, but the PR problem is.

Pity Apple removed Field Test Mode from iOS 4, or everyone could run similar tests on the iPhone 4, just as they can on previous iPhone models running any previous version of iOS.

Note how the testers make a point of cupping the antenna of each phone in order to achieve maximum attenuation effect. Such drastic measures aren't at all necessary with the iPhone 4; a light touch at the antenna gap is all that's required to kill signal with the iPhone 4.

The Nokia E71 was notorious for having a shitty antenna. We expect better from Apple. Nokia customers also expected better from Nokia. The E71 was panned.

What does the LG phone's software problem, which requires a reboot, got to do with the iPhone 4 problem?

Yes, just as you and Apple have said, signal attenuation isn't a problem unique to Apple. The iPhone 4 just has it real bad--and arguably even worse than the E71.
post #89 of 167
The NYT (usually) doesn't report stuff without checking it first.

It is plausible (to me, a layman) that there could be something the phone software is supposed to do when the properties of the aerial change, that is it not doing.

If so, that would be great for everyone concerned (in terms of relatively easy fix).
post #90 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckdutter View Post

So...they are basically saying that for all this time Apple has had substandard software running one of the most complained about problems with the phone. I'm not vindicating AT&T...but it sure must have been nice to stand back and let them take all the blame...

It's funny how this is supposed to give me faith my iPhone is not a dud...but it does the opposite...because for 4 generations of iPhones...they are apparently just now getting around to admitting they have a long-running phone/antennae issue...even if it is software.

I look forward to my iPhone 8 when they finally get around to fixing it.

No you misunderstood the problem. If anything, it made AT&T's reception on the iPhone look good by showing 5 or 4 bars even when the signal strength dropped dramatically.
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post #91 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

No, you are not an engineer. You are just another high school dropout. "..touching an antenna produces attenuation that reduces the strength of the incoming RF signal." A real engineer wouldn't ever written that nonsense.

errr, actually they would, son. It isn't wrong.
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post #92 of 167
to have a fix on a customer issue would take very long time even for a simple problem. for one, you have to make sure you root cause it; for two, you have to test it out in various conditions as the first couple of attempts might not cover all corners, or even worse, it caused more serious issues. thus it would take longer to find a cure for a customer problem. the first step is to root cause the issue and it can take very long.

during this time, one can prepare to explain to customers on what is going on. for enterprise customers, you can brief them regularly if not daily; for consumer products, it would be hard to do anything before engineers root cause it. think about it, apple has millions of customers.

to root cause a hard issue for customer, for engineer, it is better than having sex. it is not just an intellectual achievement, but a satisfaction on helping your customer. i can not say this for every engineer, but for apple, i think they have a bunch of high caliber engineers around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSHMAN4 View Post

If APPLE could have issued a software fix that addressed the antenna issue they already would have, or would have at least announced that the fix is forthcoming.
Don't hold your breath waiting for Steve Jobs to say they have a fix.

Be assured that APPLE will handle this issue to everyones satisfaction and wind up a winner in the end. (as they have also done)
post #93 of 167
for lower frequency, it would. for higher frequency such as 850MHz/1800MHz/1900MHz/2100MHz, it might not matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobility View Post

errr, actually they would, son. It isn't wrong.
post #94 of 167
There are at least two issues at play - physically blocking the signal with your hand or body (cupping, grip of death etc), and detuning the antenna.

Detuning can happen even from getting close to an antenna, no need to to touch it. If you're old enough to remember rabbit ears, you may have experienced having to stand in a certain spot to watch TV.

Phones should increase power when they sense attenuation and should also compensate for antenna detuning (same mechanism as a modern TV).

All reason to make a software fix possible.
post #95 of 167
Perhaps Apple's PR deparment should read Watzlawick sometime soon!! (see wikipedia "Paul Watzlawick" for more info)

One Cannot Not Communicate (Man kann nicht nicht kommunizieren): Every behaviour is a kind of communication. Because behaviour does not have a counterpart (there is no anti-behaviour), it is not possible not to communicate.

Every communication has a content and relationship aspect such that the latter classifies the former and is therefore a metacommunication: This means that all communication includes, apart from the plain meaning of words, more information - information on how the talker wants to be understood and how he himself sees his relation to the receiver of information.

The nature of a relationship is dependent on the punctuation of the partners communication procedures: Both the talker and the receiver of information structure the communication flow differently and therefore interpret their own behaviour during communicating as merely a reaction on the other's behaviour (i.e. every partner thinks the other one is the cause of a specific behaviour).

Human communication cannot be desolved into plain causation and reaction strings, communication rather appears to be cyclic.

Human communication involves both digital and analog modalities: Communication does not involve the merely spoken words (digital communication), but non-verbal and analog-verbal communication as well.

Inter-human communication procedures are either symmetric or complementary, depending on whether the relationship of the partners is based on differences or parity.
post #96 of 167
I don't know if this iPhone4 issue of signal blocking/detuning is a hardware or a software issue or both, but honestly I couldn't care less.

The new signal bar reporting is so much better and more accurate! And now since it's easier to go from 5 to 4 bars (as it should be), I can easily replicate the "death grip" on my old 3GS almost as easily as on my iP4, making it drop from 5 to 4 bars when I hold it around the bottom. And that's as far as they both drop here.

This should definitely at least change the focus of all the complaints and it'll be easier to separate people who really are having dropped calls and slower data transmission from those who just whine due to lost bars...

I think that at this press conference Apple will announce some statistics that prove that very few people are actually having dropped calls in real life when they touch the antenna gap. And then they'll reaffirm that you can return your iPhones if you are not satisfied. That said, if there's anything else they can tweak on the hardware or software side from now on, they'll do it as best and as silently as they can. They will, if you indeed think you have a faulty iPhone that drops calls after losing signal due to whatever reason, offer to exchange it for a replacement iPhone, that will quietly have pre-installed whatever hardware solution they figured out. What they'll never do is a full recall since most people are not having any real bad experiences from it, but only the bar drop impression.
post #97 of 167
Software fix... Even if they may come up with some, it's a state-of-art under present circumstances. Menacing everything around. Is it worth doing?

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #98 of 167
http://www.ed-china.com/ARTICLE_IMAG...URCES=DOWNLOAD

Good article that provides into the complexity of the problem and software/hardware relation. Article without reference to iPhone 4 problems more of general nature. Proves that posts of most experts are complete BS
post #99 of 167
There is a 30 day return period. Could it be that by continuing to say this is a software problem and then having an update "shortly" is a method to push initial buyers out past their 30 day window for returning their iPhone 4?
post #100 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSwitcher View Post

I don't know if this iPhone4 issue of signal blocking/detuning is a hardware or a software issue or both, but honestly I couldn't care less.

The new signal bar reporting is so much better and more accurate! And now since it's easier to go from 5 to 4 bars (as it should be), I can easily replicate the "death grip" on my old 3GS almost as easily as on my iP4, making it drop from 5 to 4 bars when I hold it around the bottom. And that's as far as they both drop here.

This should definitely at least change the focus of all the complaints and it'll be easier to separate people who really are having dropped calls and slower data transmission from those who just whine due to lost bars...

I think that at this press conference Apple will announce some statistics that prove that very few people are actually having dropped calls in real life when they touch the antenna gap. And then they'll reaffirm that you can return your iPhones if you are not satisfied. That said, if there's anything else they can tweak on the hardware or software side from now on, they'll do it as best and as silently as they can. They will, if you indeed think you have a faulty iPhone that drops calls after losing signal due to whatever reason, offer to exchange it for a replacement iPhone, that will quietly have pre-installed whatever hardware solution they figured out. What they'll never do is a full recall since most people are not having any real bad experiences from it, but only the bar drop impression.

Totally agree.
post #101 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

The Nokia E71 was notorious for having a shitty antenna. We expect better from Apple. Nokia customers also expected better from Nokia. The E71 was panned.

Did that issue effect all E71's or only a small number as is the case with the iPhone 4? Remember that the iPhone's "shitty antenna" has been reviewed as best-in-class by several reputable tech sites, iirc, and there are at least a million and a half satisfied customers out there still.
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post #102 of 167
Wouldn't be great if Jobs would say : " Thank you for coming. Now go and f... yourself. I have more things to worry about than pity people with fat thumbs. Just stck them back to where they belong. And for those that cry for free bumpers - no soup for you. Thank you".
post #103 of 167
If the fix can be implemented in an iOS 4.x update I'm all for it! This issue is a stain on an otherwise wonderful cellphone.
post #104 of 167
"It continued: 'The person said the problems were longstanding but had been exposed by the design of the iPhone 4.'"

"It continued"? That must mean the source is Ina Fried.
post #105 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauijim3 View Post

There is a 30 day return period. Could it be that by continuing to say this is a software problem and then having an update "shortly" is a method to push initial buyers out past their 30 day window for returning their iPhone 4?

Just return it.
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post #106 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

No need to feel sorry.

Just know that, if not for Anonymous, we'd never have things like Watergate.

Well, we'd still have things like Watergate, we just would never find out about them.
post #107 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by maczones View Post

Ok wiseguy, then why is Apple suggesting to use the bumpers?? Or Jobs recommending "Not to holdit that way"?? I guess everybody except you is a HS dropout?? Get an education

OK, you just lost all credibility for being an antenna engineer, as well as for being intelligent.
post #108 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagen View Post

Wouldn't be great if Jobs would say : " Thank you for coming. Now go and f... yourself. I have more things to worry about than pity people with fat thumbs. Just stck them back to where they belong. And for those that cry for free bumpers - no soup for you. Thank you".

I don't think that would be great. Telling their customers to get bent is not the answer.
post #109 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagman View Post

If I were King (of Prussia or whereever), and I believed the head of the special film and coatings division of Bayer International (whom I spoke with) I would coat the antenna with urethane, which is one of the hardest and most durable of polymer coatings and should protect it and provide a modicum of insulation.

I really wish that people would stop making comments on subjects they don't understand.

"urethane' is not a chemical compound. It is a large group of chemical compounds, all of which have different physical and chemical properties.

SOME urethanes are hard and durable (but typically not as durable as the best epoxies in SOME applications). Other urethanes can be crumbled between your fingers with no effort at all. Durability and suitability varies with application. It is never correct to say that "polymer A is more durable than polymer B" without specifying the conditions and the test method.

It's time for everyone to stop commenting on the problem and its solution. NONE OF YOU KNOWS what the problem is (or if there's even a statistically significant number of problem phones). None of you know what the solution will be (if any). Apple has the data and you'll hear their explanation today. All this endless nonsense (It's hardware. It's software. Apple will give free bumpers. No free bumpers. Recall. No Recall. In store repair. No in store repair. Repeat ad nauseum) is not shedding any light nor getting closer to the solution.

I especially love the people who claim to be antenna engineers (actually, I don't know of any school that offers an antenna engineering degree. Most people working on antennae are electrical engineers with a specialization in RF fields. In any event, some of these self-proclaimed experts say it's software and can be fixed with a patch. Others say it's hardware and a bumper will fix it. Others say the phone will need to be replaced. And so on.

Let's just wait for real data interpreted by people who know what they're talking about (which does not include bloggers or NYT journalists or CR 'testers', apparently).
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post #110 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacloo View Post

And this is not about 'basic antenna engineering', but 'complex mobile engineering'.

I am going to have to call you on this. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna. It does not know whether it is mobile, fixed or in outer space. It IS about antenna design.
post #111 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Ok, we get it that English is not your first language, but now you are just digging yourself a hole. Which space agency did you say you worked for?

Space cadet fo' shure.
post #112 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

Let's just wait for real data interpreted by people who know what they're talking about (which does not include bloggers or NYT journalists or CR 'testers', apparently).

But it does include your good self and Apple, right?

post #113 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Ok, we get it that English is not your first language, but now you are just digging yourself a hole. Which space agency did you say you worked for?

He works for (and I quote) "space business."
post #114 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

"Instead, the problems emerged in the complex interaction between specialized communications software and the antenna, said the person, who agreed to speak on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter,"

Interesting, because not all software that runs on the iPhone is from Apple. The GSM module runs software from Infineon. It is common knowledge in the embedded software world that al kinds of nasty software bugs and even software errors on higher level are more the rule than the exception for embedded modules; especially for wireless.
This software is very difficult to get right and runs on exotic CPUs with possibly all kinds of hardware problems.

It is also very difficult or even impossible (even for Apple) to have control over this software and the quality control that accompanies it.

The funny part is that all other mobile phone manufactures have to deal with the same GSM module suppliers, all having the same problems.

J.
post #115 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by pim_fortuyn View Post

http://www.ed-china.com/ARTICLE_IMAG...URCES=DOWNLOAD

Good article that provides into the complexity of the problem and software/hardware relation. Article without reference to iPhone 4 problems more of general nature. Proves that posts of most experts are complete BS

Excellent article. Highly recommended read.

Unfortunately many trolling here won't quite understand its implications or really aren't here to even try.

Thank you
post #116 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

I am going to have to call you on this. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna. It does not know whether it is mobile, fixed or in outer space. It IS about antenna design.

No, an antenna by itself is nothing more than a piece of wire, or in this case beautifully engineered steel. It needs very specialized software and hardware to be able to use it.

J
post #117 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proximityeffect View Post

He works for (and I quote) "space business."

Including the space between the trolls' ears?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper View Post

But it does include your good self and Apple, right?


Please tell me which of the bloggers is better qualified to diagnose and fix the problem than Apple. That's the real absurdity of the Apple-hater's position. You'd rather believe that some silly blogger knows more about the problem and how to fix it than Apple. It's just impossible to argue with such stupidity.

As for me, I haven't been playing the "I know the answer and here it is" game, so I don't know why you're including me - other than your usual inability to form a logical thought.
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post #118 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBR View Post

I am going to have to call you on this. An antenna is an antenna is an antenna. It does not know whether it is mobile, fixed or in outer space. It IS about antenna design.

So the antenna works by itself? It doesn't have to interface with other hardware components? It's not affected by the surroundings? It is not controlled by software?

Wow, antenna design sure has made some miraculous improvements lately.
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post #119 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

We are waiting. I will see as soon as I download the new iOS 4.0.1.

If no change, I will wait to hear what Apple will say on Friday, then decide whether to return this phone or not.

I still have my trust in Apple.

If you were that concerned you think you would actually read the article.

Yet another blog genius without a clue.
post #120 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

No disrespect intended since you are obviously a noob, but if you are going to get any street cred around here as an engineer, you need to offer more proof. This place is rife with BSers.

Agree. Please post your diploma(s) from all schools attended. Offer up six references. Get a lie detector test.

All of this is critical to "street cred" on some message board.

Frankly, my sense is that if s/he did offer more detailed explanation, you (me, et. al.) wouldn't understand it anyway.
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