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Apple's updated Mac Pro, iMac rumored to have USB 3.0, faster FireWire - Page 3

post #81 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

I Shopped in 4 local <<10036 and 10310 zip codes>> Best Buys for a Fire Wire 800 1tb or 2tb drives . 2 YRS ago i found them . Now they all but are gone and people who work there look at I am like i am nuts. Apple stores sell them at such a high price .

I move 400 g of movie data back and forth all the time . FIRE WIRE 800 blazes thru ,
usb 2 is so f--ing slow .

what is light speak ??

peace and thank god no one is talking about you know what !!!


9

best buy sells macs ?? so why not sell mac users drives ???
duh

nine

400 GB over FireWire 800 is still kinda slow. I have a hardware RAID 6 and 8 hard drives and get about 600 MB/sec transfer rate. Far quicker than FireWire supports. Of course if you only have a iMac, that's as good as it gets.
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post #82 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I would love faster ports. When I backup my home folder to a USB hd it takes a good 4 hours. Syncing my iPad also takes ages if there are movies.

USB hard drives have much lower transfer rates than FireWire 800 drives due to the need for the CPU to handle every little block of information transferred. FireWire doesn't have this problem so it doesn't disturb your work as it backs up. PowerPC based USB is especially bad as it's USB 2.0 drivers were really slow.
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post #83 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scott View Post

OWC (Other World Computing) has great deals of Firewire HDD. Excellent product selection and great customer service if you run into a problem. Check out there Mercury Elite Pro series. It's all that you need if you are looking into a firewire desktop set up.

I second that opinion except if you need more than 1 TB in one spot. Their Guardian MAXimus offers 2 TB mirrored pair that is safe and does not slow down if you leave it as a 2 TB volume. Their regular Mercury Elite-AL Pro do. It's a bug if FireWire 800. Somehow the MAXimus controller avoids it.
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post #84 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I'm not sure why the stupidity with respect to USB 3 is constantly repeated in these forums, but it is Intel that is the problem here. USB 3 isn't in any of its current shipping chipsets. You can't have what isn't there.

Many computers are now shipping with USB 3.0. It doesn't matter what Intel does and does not provide; a simple, small chip adds USB 3.0 support.
post #85 of 108
Means Apple will not see a dime from me. I will hold out until I need another computer and if they don't have it, It will be windows 7 for me. It's a shame after so many years too, but Apple clearly isn't interested in releasing a real computer that can handle all the multimedia that it used to. Too much focus in it's iPod/iPhone. Apple should have released at least a BluRay Option in their MacPro's and FinalCut should already have full BluRay Capability. Not an afterthought in Compressor. Apple is about to loose it's professional video industry members if it keeps this crap up. There is NO Excuse.
post #86 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Many computers are now shipping with USB 3.0. It doesn't matter what Intel does and does not provide; a simple, small chip adds USB 3.0 support.

Apple probably would not use the discrete chip and even if they did, a driver would need to be written in to make it work in the Mac OS X environment as well as the Boot Camp environment and maybe a redesign of the iPad, iPhone, and iPod lines to take advantage of that. It would not be trivial for Apple to do it the integrated Apple way. They are not going to do it just to support one or two curiosity hard drives made by no name brands. If Apple is going USB 3, it will be innovative in it's application.
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post #87 of 108
Sorry!
post #88 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Many computers are now shipping with USB 3.0. It doesn't matter what Intel does and does not provide; a simple, small chip adds USB 3.0 support.

It is true that such chips exist but it would be foolish for Apple to implement them. Some reasons below:

1. Such chips need drivers
2. The drivers would only be needed to support at best one or two generations of Mac. However once in the hardware space the drivers need to be supported forever.
3. Many of the USB 3 chips have had issue related to being early devices. At least one with excessive power usage for Apple products ( just recently fixed ).
4. Besides the whining on this site USB 3 hasn't really hasn't taken off yet. That in part due to Intel not supporting USB 3 in its chipsets.

In the end Apple will support USB 3 that should be a no brainer for them. But they will do so when it is easy to implement and doesn't impact their machines negatively. It isn't far off as we are seeing far more suitable standalone chips coming into play, AMD is being very aggressive with USB 3 and Intel will eventually get there. Otherwise the time/hardware hasn't been right for Apple.
post #89 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta View Post

You have to love the trolls.

There's no idea of what the specs will be, how it will perform, nor what it will cost - just a rumor that there will be an update soon (big surprise there). Yet the trolls are already running around claiming that it's overpriced and underpowered. Amazing.

The dude (or dudette) isn't a troll. This is my fear also and given Apple's recent behavior it's a fear that seems all too justified. Apple has made no secret of the fact it sees itself as a "mobile devices company". If they were interested in keeping the Mac Pros competitive they wouldn't have let them get to 500 days old, which is half way to obsolete!

After such a long wait I'd expect nothing less than 8-core performance out of the new low-end 6-core processor. If they reduce the form factor and cut the price over an the existing quad-core then we have the beginnings of a competitive entry level machine.
post #90 of 108
I see USB 3 coming on future Macs, but not a faster FireWire. I think FireWire will be left alone, then ultimately phased out for LightPeak. Although if LightPeak turns out to be a dud like MiniDisplay port, everyone will be using USB 3.0 anyway.
You think Im an arrogant [expletive] who thinks hes above the law, and I think youre a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. Steve Jobs
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You think Im an arrogant [expletive] who thinks hes above the law, and I think youre a slime bucket who gets most of his facts wrong. Steve Jobs
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post #91 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

1. Such chips need drivers
2. The drivers would only be needed to support at best one or two generations of Mac. However once in the hardware space the drivers need to be supported forever.
3. Many of the USB 3 chips have had issue related to being early devices. At least one with excessive power usage for Apple products ( just recently fixed ).
4. Besides the whining on this site USB 3 hasn't really hasn't taken off yet. That in part due to Intel not supporting USB 3 in its chipsets.

Apple may or may not add USB 3 to future Macs, but none of those reasons would stop Apple for one second if the decision has been made to do it.
post #92 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

Apple may or may not add USB 3 to future Macs, but none of those reasons would stop Apple for one second if the decision has been made to do it.

If they made the decision that would be the case. But Apple doesn't normally support interim hardware if it can avoid doing so.

Further on the laptops, Mini and iMac the wasted power seen on the early USB3 chips would have prevented Apple from implementing them. This can't be discounted when Apple is so focused on power usage.

Just understand that USB3 will come. That I'm pretty much convinced of. Apple will wait for viable hardware to cover most Macs.


Dave
post #93 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMacPro View Post

USB hard drives have much lower transfer rates than FireWire 800 drives due to the need for the CPU to handle every little block of information transferred. FireWire doesn't have this problem so it doesn't disturb your work as it backs up. PowerPC based USB is especially bad as it's USB 2.0 drivers were really slow.

The cpu 'overhead' involved with USB is pretty easily absorbed with dual core cpus. In the era of quad core and better cpus that 'overhead' is trivial. Not to say that USB is better than FW but that issue was more significant with single core cpus.
post #94 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I'm not sure why the stupidity with respect to USB 3 is constantly repeated in these forums, but it is Intel that is the problem here. USB 3 isn't in any of its current shipping chipsets. You can't have what isn't there.

As to Blu-Ray please get a life. It is a corrupt technology.


Good for you! Enjoy your Windows 7 and everything that comes with it.

Dave

Oh what nonsense. Blu-ray is great, you should try watching one. Tell me where else I can get that level of quality. All I want BD for in a PC is to ripp my BDs to watch on the go. Surely that's not too much to ask, especially as a BTO option.

And thanks, I'll keep enjoying Windows 7! It's a great OS! Really, it's top banana! You should try it!
post #95 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

The cpu 'overhead' involved with USB is pretty easily absorbed with dual core cpus. In the era of quad core and better cpus that 'overhead' is trivial. Not to say that USB is better than FW but that issue was more significant with single core cpus.

While it's true that the impact in minimized with multi-core Macs, nobody with a serious storage system is considering USB. FireWire is considered marginal, for backup only. It's typically hardware RAID via a PCIe card to a disk array. Can't be done with a lightweight connection like USB. Best that could do would be a port multiplier enclosure that offers somewhat less than half the performance at best, and less via USB. I know USB drives are cheap. You get what you pay for. I only use USB as a last resort for my home needs when I connect a bare hard drive.

FireWire 1600 or 3200 would make FireWire a contender again. I use a pair of 1200 Mbps rated mini-SAS cables to connect my Mac Pro's RAID card to my boot hard drive(s). Each is like 4 eSATA channels. I'm not really bragging here, but for high performance, this is how it's done. USB 3.0 acceptance for anything more than a single drive or a iPhone, a high performance scanner, maybe a high performance digital camcorder or a external display adapter. Most things can't push data fast enough to warrant an upgrade to USB 3.0.
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post #96 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMacPro View Post

While it's true that the impact in minimized with multi-core Macs, nobody with a serious storage system is considering USB. FireWire is considered marginal, for backup only. It's typically hardware RAID via a PCIe card to a disk array. Can't be done with a lightweight connection like USB. Best that could do would be a port multiplier enclosure that offers somewhat less than half the performance at best, and less via USB. I know USB drives are cheap. You get what you pay for. I only use USB as a last resort for my home needs when I connect a bare hard drive.

FireWire 1600 or 3200 would make FireWire a contender again. I use a pair of 1200 Mbps rated mini-SAS cables to connect my Mac Pro's RAID card to my boot hard drive(s). Each is like 4 eSATA channels. I'm not really bragging here, but for high performance, this is how it's done. USB 3.0 acceptance for anything more than a single drive or a iPhone, a high performance scanner, maybe a high performance digital camcorder or a external display adapter. Most things can't push data fast enough to warrant an upgrade to USB 3.0.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. USB isn't for serious storage.

But for a time machine back-up they are fine. And with modern dual core or better cpus you needn't worry about system performance while TM is doing it's thing if you're working on something else.
post #97 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

I don't disagree with anything you've said. USB isn't for serious storage.

But for a time machine back-up they are fine. And with modern dual core or better cpus you needn't worry about system performance while TM is doing it's thing if you're working on something else.

OK so you look forward to USB 3.0 for time machine backup. If greater speed USB 3.0 drives will cos more, might they cost as much as a FireWire 800 drive? If so, no advantage unless USB 3.0 becomes popular, they make lots of Windows machines with USB 3.0 standard so they make lots of USB 3.0 drives and then they will cost less than a FireWire drive. With the bug in FireWire with larger than 1 TB volumes, then this will be welcome work-around.
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post #98 of 108
Two things to throw in the fray:

One, premium pricing is fine, if it accompanies premium, bleeding edge hardware. Whether Apple offers that with their Mac Pro, I will leave to each reader's opinion. Those who have read my posts already know my stance. After 12 years or so I'm leaving the Mac for my line of work (3D graphics).

Two, gigantic #$%ing clue for Apple, the advantages of using a Xeon only exist for multi-CPU macs. You can use more than one Xeon per motherboard. There is no point, whatsoever, in using a single-CPU Xeon setup. A Core i7 will smoke the Mac Pro single CPU in every task, and cost, literally, a fraction of the Mac Pro costs. When you can do work many many times faster, for half the cost, on another platform, with less buggy tools, it's time to make the switch.

Let's all think about those two points.
post #99 of 108
The Mac Pro is a workstation, not a personal computer. It uses ECC memory, like the xServe. The lower end Core i7 series does not. Unless you can convince Steve Jobs to drop the expensive Xeon and ECC memory for future Mac Pro, we have to wait for Intel to ship acceptable quantities of the next gen. hexa-core X56xx series processors. (Westmere-EP, the next-gen Nehalem micro-architecture models) They were released mid March 2010 but they have had problems in making in quantity, thus no new Mac Pro. It's not Apple's fault. Yes you could buy one or two yourself, but Apple needs thousands.
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post #100 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradMacPro View Post

OK so you look forward to USB 3.0 for time machine backup. If greater speed USB 3.0 drives will cos more, might they cost as much as a FireWire 800 drive? If so, no advantage unless USB 3.0 becomes popular, they make lots of Windows machines with USB 3.0 standard so they make lots of USB 3.0 drives and then they will cost less than a FireWire drive. With the bug in FireWire with larger than 1 TB volumes, then this will be welcome work-around.

USB isn't *just* for HDDs. USB is a common interface for a lot of peripherals.

A USB 3 card reader will be the first USB 3 device I get personally.

YMMV
post #101 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R View Post

Two things to throw in the fray:

One, premium pricing is fine, if it accompanies premium, bleeding edge hardware. Whether Apple offers that with their Mac Pro, I will leave to each reader's opinion. Those who have read my posts already know my stance. After 12 years or so I'm leaving the Mac for my line of work (3D graphics).

Two, gigantic #$%ing clue for Apple, the advantages of using a Xeon only exist for multi-CPU macs. You can use more than one Xeon per motherboard. There is no point, whatsoever, in using a single-CPU Xeon setup. A Core i7 will smoke the Mac Pro single CPU in every task, and cost, literally, a fraction of the Mac Pro costs. When you can do work many many times faster, for half the cost, on another platform, with less buggy tools, it's time to make the switch.

Let's all think about those two points.

You seem to forget that at the point Apple released this version of the Mac Pro, it was the first to have these Xeon chips, period. It was more expensive to build an equivalent workstation from Dell for quite awhile. A 2.66GHz Quad non-Xeon would actually have been about the same results as the single cpu Mac Pro. A current top end 980X? Clearly that will be a better machine. That's not hard to figure.

Can the MP be beaten on value currently, as long as OS isn't an issue? Certainly. It did represent the current top end Intel server processors when it was first released tho and was quite reasonable. The i7 iMac can beat out the single cpu MP in many tests, plus you get an awesome screen in the bargain for less money, but you also get less expandability and don't use things like the ECC memory. A new MP will be released soon and I'm sure we'll all argue about its value proposition upon release as well.
post #102 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

USB isn't *just* for HDDs. USB is a common interface for a lot of peripherals.

A USB 3 card reader will be the first USB 3 device I get personally.

YMMV

I guess for the 600x professional compact flash cards. There are fast eSATA based card readers. http://www.addonics.com/products/fla...r/aepddesu.asp for one example.

another is this:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/qio.html
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post #103 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

USB isn't *just* for HDDs. USB is a common interface for a lot of peripherals.

A USB 3 card reader will be the first USB 3 device I get personally.

YMMV

My first USB 3 peripheral was a SATA drive dock. Very, very useful tool for anyone who deals with lots of drives.

I'm not sure how useful a card reader will be though, given how slow the flash used for such cards is.
post #104 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePastNow View Post

My first USB 3 peripheral was a SATA drive dock. Very, very useful tool for anyone who deals with lots of drives.

I'm not sure how useful a card reader will be though, given how slow the flash used for such cards is.

For those lacking USB 3.0, like Macs, but with FireWire 800 or eSATA, check out this:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer...gy/FWU2ES2HDK/
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post #105 of 108
eSATA \
USB3
FireWire 3200

How I love thee FireWire, let me count the ways....
post #106 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

At least here you recognize the type of hardware Apple is using. There is little justification for rapid updates that many seem to think are in order for the Mac Pro.

But then you loose it with disk drives. Considering Mac Pros volume sales wise and it's target market micro updates to try to tweak sales would do nothing. The thing here is that professionals will likely replace whatever Apple installs anyways. Those that don't don't need the tweaks anyway.

What do you expect Apple to do? They can't run over to Intel and demand something they don't have to sell. The fact of the matter is that the world is going to SmP hardware and core speeds have dropped. At least in the short term though we now have chips capable of clearing the 3GHz cieling. The fact is many don't care about GHz anymore because multithreading apps is the way to go.



The Mac Pro is not cheap but it is inexpensive for what you get. I'm not sure why people are so dense in this regard. The Mac Pro isn't even trying to be a desktop tower in the mold if a generic Dell box. It is rather a high performance workstation computer, with hardware and construction to support professional use. It is not a computer for a manager nor a secratary. That is what iMacs are for.

As to performance the Pro is Apples high performance machine. You can certainly find bench marks that will show an iMac to be faster in some regards but that should not be surprise at all. Doing what it is designed to do though it is a hard machine to beat in the Mac lineup. It is all about leveraging all those cores in professional apps.


Dave

Apple's 'high performance' machine is nothing of the kind. It's embarrassed in specs by machines costing half as much.

A p*ss poor gpu in a 'workstation' (what does that mean?) It was out of date (a rebadged Nvidia card at introduction) at launch.

'Dense'? Well, the entry Mac 'pro' weighting in at about 2k (sterling) is certainly not dense in spec, is it? Maybe 'dense' applies to people who only see one side of the argument or allow their allegiance (blind?) to warp their common sense.

What do 'we' get?

4 gigs of ram. Meh.
500 gig HD? Meh.
Do they still make that GPU?!??! MEH!

a 2.66 quad core? Meehehehhheheheheh.

I'll score it a couple of points for the now long in tooth design and the OS it runs on.

Loses one of those points for an inadequate display range.

Really, is that the best Apple can do in 14 months?

*Shrugs. It's telling that I'm more excited about the iPhone 4... I can't remember the last time I got excited about the 'pro'. Right after I realised the Intel move wasn't about giving us choice at all...or better value. No. As UK buyers we're had to put up with steep successive price rises, limited choice of cpu and p*ss gpus with stingy ram.

Apple are selling more than ever. Guess Apple must be right in everything they do, right?

Lemon Bon Bon.

You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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You know, for a company that specializes in the video-graphics market, you'd think that they would offer top-of-the-line GPUs...

 

WITH THE NEW MAC PRO THEY FINALLY DID!  (But you bend over for it.)

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post #107 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post

Apple's 'high performance' machine is nothing of the kind. It's embarrassed in specs by machines costing half as much.

A p*ss poor gpu in a 'workstation' (what does that mean?) It was out of date (a rebadged Nvidia card at introduction) at launch.

'Dense'? Well, the entry Mac 'pro' weighting in at about 2k (sterling) is certainly not dense in spec, is it? Maybe 'dense' applies to people who only see one side of the argument or allow their allegiance (blind?) to warp their common sense.

What do 'we' get?

4 gigs of ram. Meh.
500 gig HD? Meh.
Do they still make that GPU?!??! MEH!

a 2.66 quad core? Meehehehhheheheheh.

I'll score it a couple of points for the now long in tooth design and the OS it runs on.

Loses one of those points for an inadequate display range.

Really, is that the best Apple can do in 14 months?

*Shrugs. It's telling that I'm more excited about the iPhone 4... I can't remember the last time I got excited about the 'pro'. Right after I realised the Intel move wasn't about giving us choice at all...or better value. No. As UK buyers we're had to put up with steep successive price rises, limited choice of cpu and p*ss gpus with stingy ram.

Apple are selling more than ever. Guess Apple must be right in everything they do, right?

Lemon Bon Bon.

I agree with you on 99%, however...

I want to pick my drives myself and my ram myself, so the less of both I get from apple in buying a new workstation the better!
MBP (15, 2.33, 3GB,10.6/win/lin on 250GB)
MP (3,1 oct 2.8, 10GB. 10.6 on 4x1TB RAID10, Win/Lin on 1x2TB, 2407WFP on 1x5770 + 2xSamsung 910t on 1xGT120)
also a lot of other systems :-p
I met a...
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MBP (15, 2.33, 3GB,10.6/win/lin on 250GB)
MP (3,1 oct 2.8, 10GB. 10.6 on 4x1TB RAID10, Win/Lin on 1x2TB, 2407WFP on 1x5770 + 2xSamsung 910t on 1xGT120)
also a lot of other systems :-p
I met a...
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post #108 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacinScott View Post

Check Amazon for external HDs. I currently have two LaCie Quadra HDs (Firewire 400, 800, USB 2.0 and eSATA) that I am very happy with. Also, I'm using a G-Drive Mini as a portable HD (Firewire 400, 800 and USB 2.0) that I love.

CalDigit is also a good brand. I have some CalDigit VRs and VR Minis and they work fantastically. But I hear that CalDigit is going to be shipping their new AV Drive this week. I know that it's supposed to have USB 3.0 and FireWire. I think there are also adapter cards for laptop and mac for those that dont have usb 3.0

www.caldigit.com
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