Apple posts videos of press conference, antenna performance, test chambers - Page 7

You're seem incapable of rational discussion. You haven't made any valid points. You haven't backed up any of your assertions. There really isn't anything you've said that requires refutation at this point, because all of it is just the hysterical rantings of someone who want's to claim there's this big problem out there when there isn't.

The only one who's playing semantic games is you. If you think it's "many" define want you mean by it, quantify it, back up your numbers with some shred of evidence. Otherwise, all you have to offer is empty meaningless rhetoric where you hide behind the shifting and ambiguous meanings you apply to words and phrases like "many", "most", "experiencing the issue", etc. etc. etc.

I think I have made many valid points. But it appears you are too affected by the Apple reality distortion field, that you can't apply simple logic. Your opinion is no better then my opinion. Btw, the very valid points I have brought up are being brought up by many people. Oops, I used a word you hate (many), sorry.

No, it doesn't. It proves that %0.55 know how to call AppleCare. It is well known in the service industry that for every 1 customer who complains there are 10 who have the same problem but do not. For you to not know this shows you have little to no experience in the service arena. And that means you might want to pipe down.

It just occurred to me that Steve Jobs very selectively chose his complaint numbers. OK, so %0.55 called AppleCare. But how many went to the Genius Bar? Or their AT&T store? Or Best Buy?

Yet another case of the Reality Distortion Field.

Nice Urban Legend stat. If that's the case 10:1 then 60% of all iPhone 3GS users should have returned their iPhone.

Grow up and don't cite mathematical probability and statistic hogwash when it defies the laws of Probability and Statistics.

Do you realize that one of the main reasons we are now involved in a war that has killed over 4400 American solders because of the intelligence failure", i.e., that is relying on the media as a prime source of information, as well as comments and writings proclaimed by so-called experts in the media and on the internet.

Quote:

In the build up to the 2003 war the New York Times published a number of stories claiming to prove that Iraq possessed WMD. One story in particular, written by Judith Miller helped persuade the American public that Iraq had WMD: in September 2002 she wrote about an intercepted shipment of aluminum tubes which the NYT said were to be used to develop nuclear material. It is now clear that they could not be used for that purpose. The story was followed up with television appearances by Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld and Condoleezza Rice all pointing to the story as part of the basis for taking military action against Iraq. Miller's sources were introduced to her by Ahmed Chalabi, an Iraqi exile favorable to a U.S. invasion of Iraq. Miller is also listed as a speaker for The Middle East Forum, an organization which openly declared support for an invasion. In May 2004 the New York Times published an editorial which stated that its journalism in the build up to war had sometimes been lax. It appears that in the cases where Iraqi exiles were used for the stories about WMD were either ignorant as to the real status of Iraq's WMD or lied to journalists to achieve their own ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_an...ss_destruction

Sound a lot like guys like you, sky1 and many (as you define) others here.

Perhaps when you have built up your research facilities a few hundred million dollars or so, (like no one organization except Apple has come close to by the way), then come back. I would be more willing to listen to you then, than the total shit you spew now.

It's like the oil spill in the Gulf. Great. The well is capped. The shit can and will be removed. Unfortunately, the shitters, and that is not only the oil companies, are still there.

I really have to wonder why I should even be here.

But knowing Apple and how much they put into research and development, I do find it rather unbelievable how many here so negative.

As someone else has posted in another forum, who would you trust more: diagnostic findings from a hundred million dollar research lab or on equipment you can get from Radio Shack?

I tend to lean to the former.

Engadget's View: http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/16/i...ng-facilities/

I know you are mostly arguing with anonymouse here, but I can't stand to read this junk anymore. The whole idea that the 0.55% of people who called AppleCare over this is some kind "managed statistic," or that it isn't representative of the true return rate is a total crock.

Yes, those that call AppleCare and those that get AppleCare are generally a different kind of customer from average. They are smarter, they are more knowledgeable about Apple in general and more likely to wait before calling AppleCare. They are more likely to not be whiners (they are insured after all), they are more likely to be following the issue in the press and more likely to be waiting for the results of the press conference. Everything you think about this group that biases the response might in fact be absolutely true.

However, there is also a startlingly low (and very similar), return rate to AT&T stores.

It could easily be argued, (and I'm going to do it here), that this second group is the exact opposite of the first. That this group of folks who bought it from AT&T (not Apple), are *not* "Apple-followers" and *don't* read the press about such things. These folks are just people who bought a phone from a store and want to return it because it doesn't seem to work for them. If we believe that the first group has bias one way, surely this group is almost certainly the exact opposite in every way.

The reality is that both of these differing groups of people questioned the phone's utility and possibly even returned the phone at pretty much the same ratio. The very low rate of return and the very low rate of dissatisfaction is the same whether the customer was following the news or not, and whether they were an Apple groupie or not.

If every study could be discounted by saying "well, yeah, but most of those folks that didn't (do "x" or whatever) were probably *thinking* of doing it." ... then no study could ever be trusted. What you are saying about the AppleCare group might sound reasonable when you say it, but logically it's total nonsense without some kind of detailed supporting evidence to that effect.

Reporting return rates before the product has even been out 30 days is a little premature. Like I said earlier, I imagine there are people that were waiting for Apple's response before returning it. They have a 30 day trial. Besides the reception flaw, it's great phone. In my eyes, the return rate is only relevant after the 30 day mark. I bet Apple won't report an updated return rate later.

As usual, you're imagining things.

The reported statement was that 1.7% of iPhone 4 units had be returned compared to 6% of iPhone 3GS units DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD AFTER LAUNCH.

(Just one example, but the other sites I saw said the same thing):
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/artic...a_full_refund/

So much for your rationalization.

And, as I said, you are comparing Apples to oranges. I bet Apple won't be updating their return rates after the 30-day trial period is over.

Could you be a little more specific. What 30-day trial are you referring to.

I wouldn't mind taking your bet. My short attendance here vs your babbling. Loser never to return.

Lets say Apple has till the end of its fiscal year report? Around the 20th of October. That should give you more time to get your research together.

Its the same time frame YoY from the launch of these phones, yet one is almost ¼ the other. There is no argument you could possible have unless you want to change your stance to "Apple is lying", because after 30 days well need to move the goal posts for both the 3GS and iPhone 4 before making other consistent comparisons.

Huh ? My point being that there was X amount of people that where probably going to return the phone because of this issue, but they were waiting for Apple's response/fix. So they had nothing to lose to continue using the phone until the end of the 30 day trial. Some of these people will not be satisifed with the bumper solution and return the phone. So comparing return rates when the phone has been on the market less the 3 weeks is a bit premature. Showing a return rate AFTER the phone has been on the market more then 30 days, will be more convincing to me. And yes of course for the comparision, move the goal post for the 3GS too.

So your argument is that 3 weeks of 3GS sales SHOULD HAVE over 3x as many returns than 3 weeks of iPhone 4 sales because there nothing wrong with the 3GS?

I never said such a thing. My point being that an accurate return rate for the antenna issue on the iPhone 4 will not being fully realized until after July 24.

Thats exactly what you implied, even if you didnt mean to make that your point. You wont accept 3 weeks of new sales data from both phones and claim that the iPhone 4 return percentage is lower because of a possible fix so there is an inherent conclusion youve made that the 3GS return rate numbers should be higher because there is nothing wrong, ergo nothing for users to wait for.

By your logic the sales of the iPhone 4 should be substantially lower, too, since people would be "waiting for Apple response/fix before buying, yet the iPhone 4 sold well over" 3 million in the first 3 weeks so the 3GS should have sold more than that. Three times as many? No, they didnt even sell 3x as many as that in the first full quarter of 3GS sales which totaled 7.4M.

Every avenue comes to the same intersection: its the best phone on the market and the problem ricocheting through the internets only affects very few people when it comes to making the iPhone 4 their phone of choice.

Did I miss it? Is today backwards day?

Apple says that the iPhone 4 has 1.7% return rate vs 6% return rate FOR THE SAME TIME PERIOD. How is that apples and oranges?

Now, if they had done what you accused them of (comparing the first 20 days of iPhone 4 returns to the entire lifetime of 3GS returns), THAT would have been apples and oranges. But they didn't do that.

BTW, I'd love to have you show some reputable data for the number of returns for other phones for comparison.

Maybe this:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Palm-...a-117169.shtml
or
http://www.geardiary.com/2009/09/17/...0-return-rate/
or
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...top_world_news
or
http://www.intomobile.com/2010/01/07...ria-x2-launch/
or
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/...m-return-rate/
(this one is funny because even with widespread evidence that the phone was being returned en masse, Verizon claimed that it was one of their better phones)

So let's see your numbers for average return rates for other phones before you continue your silly whining about the iPhone's 1.7% figure.

Or, we could look at industry average rates:
http://www.wdsglobal.com/news/whitep...ulletinNFF.pdf
(one in 7 mobile phones is returned in the first year)
or
http://www.wirelessweek.com/Articles...bile-Handsets/
(11% are returned in India vs 5.5% globally)

In any event, there is absolutely nothing supporting your claim that the iPhone 4's return rate is a problem.

LOL! I never said Apple was comparing the first 20 days of the iPhone 4 to the entire life-cycle of the 3GS. Why do you have such a hard time making a post without twisting facts and adding fud ? You are so comical. You are such an easy person to debate because you can almost never make a post without twisting facts and adding fud. All of your fud is easily shot down. Anyway, as I said earlier, let's see if Apple reports the return rates after the key date of July 24. That will be the true test of the return rates because of the antenna issue. All of your fud rambling is premature numbers.

Your statement was:
"Reporting return rates before the product has even been out 30 days is a little premature. Like I said earlier, I imagine there are people that were waiting for Apple's response before returning it. They have a 30 day trial. Besides the reception flaw, it's great phone. In my eyes, the return rate is only relevant after the 30 day mark. I bet Apple won't report an updated return rate later."

That implies that you think that the amount of elapsed time was accounting for the low return rates.

If your logic were true, why is it that 6% if 3GS phones were returned in the same amount of time?

IOW, your only approach is to make things up, sling them at the wall, and hope something sticks. Preferably mutually contradictory things.

Ahh,, another fud post. Why am I not surprised. LOL. Why do you have such a hard time understanding such a simple concept ? That reality distortion field sure does got a lock on you. Did you not read my previous posts ? I said there are people that were waiting for Apple's response/fix before they would decide to return the phone. They have a 30 day trial you know. So the true test of the return rate of the antenna issue would be after Apple's response last Friday and July 24. Anything else you are adding and poorly attempting to compare is pure fud, as usual.

Apple is playing this all wrong but I'm not surprised. This is not a position the company is used to being in.

What Apple should have done is come out on Friday and rather than being so defensive stuck to the issue at hand, namely the signal reduction when a phone is held a certain way.

Rather than demonstrate a similar drop in other phones, naming names in the process, Apple should have simply in passing noted that signal drop was not uncommon among smartphones. No video demos, no specifics, just a simple comment. If pressed by the media during the Q and A, Jobs could have elaborated, still not throwing out names of other brands, unless pressured to do so by the media, of course. That way, it would have come across as something Jobs was doing reluctantly, not making it part of his pre-Q-and-A prepared presentation.

Apple should have been more apologetic and taken the position that they were offering customers, free of charge, a solution that would do the trick in the short run, while continuing to work on a more permanent resolution. If using a case with the iPhone, something most customers would sooner or later end up doing anyway at their own expense, results in a problem-free product, as problems go, this one would have to be characterized as rather minor.

Damage control should have resulted in an apologetic Apple expressing their disappointment that a problem had presented itself and by coming up with a timely fix for the problem, first the case and later whatever they can come up with, demonstrated that they stand behind their products.

Jobs simply struck the wrong tone and I think part of the problem is that Jobs just doesn't do apologetic. It's not in his DNA.

Apple is doing the right thing in offering the cases for free. This is a reasonable response to the problem being as it does do the trick and for the vast majority of customers it works just fine. But the presser on Friday was awkwardly managed.

And one more thing. Not including the Q and A in the video Apple posted, considering it was mentioned in the course of the video, bad move.

Whoever is calling the shots at Apple in this regard are either offering up bad advice or they are being overruled by an egomaniacal Jobs who just doesn't get it.

That would have been insane.

Even with photos and a description of their $100 M test lab and photos and videos of lots of other phones doing the same thing, people are still accusing Apple of lying.

If Apple had simply said "all smartphones do this" without the supporting evidence, they would have been (rightfully) crucified.

Too bad their proudly shown $100M test lab didn't help in recognizing such an obvious design flaw that should have been thoroughly tested.

Not sure why you took rabid offense to fairly innocuous and commonly agreed upon advice.

If you feel that concentrating in only one stock is a good idea...well okay. Good luck with that strategy. No need to be a dick about it though.

Why should Apple take all the heat for an issue that's existed forever but never been noticed until the iPhone 4? It's unfair and misleading for their phone to be singled out.


They did that three weeks ago, and nobody listened. It took the video demos and a press conference to get the media to actually listen to anyone but themselves. There has been no fact-checking at all on the media's part, instead every local news station in the world has been running their own version of, "iPhone 4 doesn't make calls and everybody's furious!".

it's funny how the trolls will continue to claim that it's a design flaw - no matter how much evidence is presented that ALL phones suffer from the problem.

They rebut then by exclaiming their Android or Blackberry does no such thing so Apple must be lying, all the while conveniently ignoring that the majority of iPhone 4 owners have been saying the same thing it doesn't affect them.

This person has not once provided any factual linked data to support his arguments in the above discussion thread. Please show me other similar situations were the data used for returns changed dramatically after 30 days for a product deemed successful. Do some resaerch provide some credible data and then maybe I will read your comments and think you have a point. For you to say you made valid points I should believe you (that was not a question).

Here is great comment "most independent experts disagree" LINK the data to show this is the case. You really want me to believe you.

I read all your comments and you would give any headache with your posturing and non-factual opinionated comments. SHOW ME FACTS!! or at least one.

Uhh, it's called applying common sense and simple logic, instead of being brainwashed by Apple's reality distortion.

so your counterargument to back up your claim of "most independent experts disagree is that its "common sense and simple logic? Awesome¡

What exactly are you referring to with the "most independent experts disagree", and I'll be glad to show you facts.

Im referring to your unsubstantiated, blanket claim. So us proof! You may be right, but your argument is weak.

Claim to what ? Be more specific. Wherever I said that statement, it was referring to something specific.

You really have to not think when you write if you cant even remember writing this:

And here's three independent links to back my point.

AnandTech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3821/i...1-signal-fix/3

Consumer Reports:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/iphone-4/

AntennaSys:
http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...athinator.html

1) AnandTech proves that attenuation occurs with other phones when you grip it, thus destroying your argument in your first link.

2) Your 2nd link isnt to any specific article(s) but to the iPhone 4 as a category, which makes it an irrelevant post as it covers anything iPhone 4 related, including CRs initial comment about the iPhone 4*.

3) Your last link is biases and flawed, but its a solid link for your argument. The problem is that its ONE link and you clearly stated most, which completely decimates your argument once again. Even if you could get 3 solid links it still wouldnt be anywhere close to backing your preposterous claim.

4) This is common sense and general truths (but really just my opinions):

• The iPhone 4 is the best cellphone Apple has created
• The iPhone 4 is the best smartphone on the planet
• The iPhone 4 antenna issue is only an issue with anti-Apple folk, most of whom have never even held one, and those too mental to have realistic expectations of a CE company and the physical world they actually do live in
• Every cellphone vendor would gladly change places with Apple if they could

* The iPhone 4 is CRs highest rated cellphone and every phone on their list of recommended phones suffer from severe attenuation when gripped. Do you want links, because I can get them... all with video proof?

Did you even read the article. AnandTech showed the iPhone4 has far worse attenuation then the other phones they tested.


Consumer reports had the same outcome. They showed the iPhone4 has far worse attenuation then the other phones they tested.