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Apple says it takes 3 years to get a new cell tower in San Francisco - Page 2

post #41 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Maybe if you (and your ilk) would removed those Apple-tinted goggles every once in a while you'd better see that no company is infallible... no matter how much you claim otherwise.

Maybe you can pull your head out of your rear for two minutes and think before you write.

Having lived in San Francisco it is well known the fight for right-of-way and Wireless carriers is real and brutal.
post #42 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Apple 'says' all manner of things... One learns to discern what's most likely rubbish - Like This!

I've been saying for months now that in many cases complaining to AT&T about local coverage will do you no good. There are many local issues to deal with from anti tower regulations to corrupt officials to excessive concern for historical concerns to government failings.

The reality is in places like San Fransico you really need to go after your local elected officials to fix the problem. In some cases you will have to elect Republicans or other progressives. Unfortunately AT&T has to stay with in the bounds of what is legal and as such you suffer if your local government is confused, regressive or corrupt.

The reality is the engineers at the carriers can figure pretty easily where the next tower needs to go. They know where they need to go before they even weak approval. It isn't like they throw a box of tooth picks on a map and say here is where the towers need to go. When you live in an area where the towers are approved fast and go up fast you get good service, there is nothing difficult to understand here.

In contrast if you live someplace where a dumb bitch with a little influence with the local government can go about soecifing tower locations then you get bad coverage. Contest to popular belief in some circles getting elected doesn't give you the power to re write the laws of physics.


Dave
post #43 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post

Yep... A town where I once lived was very anti tower and for most of the 90s we went without any coverage at all.... Then the cell providers made deals with many of the large churches in town to ingeniously locate antennas inside the large/tall steeples... Then the town once again stepped in and put the kibosh on the deals... Why? The town was going to take away the churches tax exempt status since profits on the agreements weren't looked at too favorably by the town leadership.

So... Another few years went by and we finally got a tower on the side of our local highway that looks exactly like that silly tree tower linked to above. The picture doesn't do it justice since 3 qtrs of the 'tree' is just brown steel and then near the very to are these silly tree branches. It looks so silly.

So just a heads up that SF isn't the only tower troublemakers.. They have at least one sister city back east...

It's the classic locational dilemma. Everybody wants things like cell towers, but nobody wants them right where they live. I have rarely heard anyone admit that they are no different than anyone else in this respect, but when it comes down to it, this is a behavior that transcends politics, socioeconomics, and ideologies.
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post #44 of 137
Too bad SF keeps getting it in the rear.
post #45 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Maybe if you (and your ilk) would removed those Apple-tinted goggles every once in a while you'd better see that no company is infallible... no matter how much you claim otherwise.

Your agenda doesn't actually fit this story. Did you watch the presentation video? Jobs clearly says that Apple and their products aren't perfect. I don't remember any PR from any company saying that before. Do you?

Maybe if you don't come here with an axe to grind, you might not get flak for grinding your axe at every opportunity that you see. I realize that sometimes people come across as insufferable fanboys, but then, that doesn't justify coming across as an insufferable troll.
post #46 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post

So... Another few years went by and we finally got a tower on the side of our local highway that looks exactly like that silly tree tower linked to above. The picture doesn't do it justice since 3 qtrs of the 'tree' is just brown steel and then near the very to are these silly tree branches. It looks so silly.

I see these by the freeway all the time. Who are they trying to fool really.... Does it make people happier if they see an antenna pretending to be a tree versus just an antenna.
post #47 of 137
This reminds me of the (very true) story of a conversation we had with a beach bar owner, on Orient Beach in St Martin. He said it took him over 3 years to get a license there on the French side to open his bar. On the Dutch side, it took him 2 days.
post #48 of 137
Reception here is so bad. AT&T has gone to court with the some of the homeowners association here, and still could not get one extra cell tower approval. Then it was put on the city ballot during the election, and it still failed to pass.

Some neighborhoods in California are impossible to get even a single cell tower installed, even on the freeway. Sometimes you wonder wether these local activists understand that neighborhoods belong to everyone. And just a few a mile in next city, cellphone reception is at optimum because there are several cell towers.

So the situation in San Francisco is not too bad compared to South Orange County, Ca.
post #49 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

obs said. "(AT&T has) tried to make them look like banana trees, but still, it's a problem."

This is San Francisco - ATT needs to make them look like banana HAMMOCKS, they would be approved in three HOURS!

sorry, couldn't resist!
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post #50 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ihxo View Post

I see these by the freeway all the time. Who are they trying to fool really.... Does it make people happier if they see an antenna pretending to be a tree versus just an antenna.

I think you have a point there, a case can be made for actually doing a decent job of it.

One thing I want to ask is, how many useful man-made structures have to be built to look like something they are not? It's not a condition imposed on anything else that I can remember.
post #51 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface147 View Post

Too bad SF keeps getting it in the rear.

I think it is a shame that SF is becoming the butt of all the jokes around here.... :-)


Too much?
Contact my complaints department.
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post #52 of 137
Maybe they already do this but I think a great place to put a cell tower would be in cemeteries. I remember being near SF and I went down a road that must have had at least 20 cemeteries on it all in a row. It would be the perfect place for a cell tower disguised as a tree. It works out great for the cemetery because the would get a continuous revenue stream and there is nobody living around to complain about them being unsightly.
post #53 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Apple 'says' all manner of things... One learns to discern what's most likely rubbish - Like This!

DaHarder,

I totally agree with you, as usual. Actually I found a new video on youtube where SJ admits it was all rubbish and that you were right.
Check it out!
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post #54 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by desides View Post

As for the banana tree thing, that's true too.

Actually, I am quite certain SJs meant palm tree, not banana tree. I have seen many palm tree, and some evergreen tree cell towers, but a banana tree just ti snot tall enough. Bananas grow in plants that look more like bushes than trees....

(try googling palm vs banana cell tower = many vs no hits...)
post #55 of 137
I live in Texas and have for most of my life. How shall I put this? Uh, Texas and all of it's cities are ugly. Very, very few people here have any real appreciation or knowledge of design - whether it is phones or city planning. They like to pretend they care about their past, but they don't. Texas treats their cities and neighborhoods just like Los Angeles - they tear them down when they get old thus destroying any desirable character. So a cell tower is a non-issue. The community of Wimberly near Austin tried to stop a cell tower from going up and they failed miserably.

I admire communities that try to keep the charm, beauty and livable attributes of their surroundings intact. The only way to achieve this is through regulation. It might anger the pro development, big business types who don't care about anything but the size of their . . . um developments, but you know, who cares? I'd rather live in a nice place than have perfect cell reception. Of course I live in Texas, but I notice Mr. Jobs does not. He might like Texas because of it's lax regulations, but he would never live here.
post #56 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

I live in Texas and have for most of my life. How shall I put this? Uh, Texas and all of it's cities are ugly. Very, very few people here have any real appreciation or knowledge of design - whether it is phones or city planning. They like to pretend they care about their past, but they don't. Texas treats their cities and neighborhoods just like Los Angeles - they tear them down when they get old thus destroying any desirable character. So a cell tower is a non-issue. The community of Wimberly near Austin tried to stop a cell tower from going up and they failed miserably.

I admire communities that try to keep the charm, beauty and livable attributes of their surroundings intact. The only way to achieve this is through regulation. It might anger the pro development, big business types who don't care about anything but the size of their . . . um developments, but you know, who cares? I'd rather live in a nice place than have perfect cell reception. Of course I live in Texas, but I notice Mr. Jobs does not. He might like Texas because of it's lax regulations, but he would never live here.

A thoughtful and well-put counter point

(But I still think 3 years is a bit much. More ingenious solutions are needed, if that costs me as a wireless subscriber, so be it)
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post #57 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

I live in Texas and have for most of my life. How shall I put this? Uh, Texas and all of it's cities are ugly. Very, very few people here have any real appreciation or knowledge of design - whether it is phones or city planning. They like to pretend they care about their past, but they don't. Texas treats their cities and neighborhoods just like Los Angeles - they tear them down when they get old thus destroying any desirable character. So a cell tower is a non-issue. The community of Wimberly near Austin tried to stop a cell tower from going up and they failed miserably.

I admire communities that try to keep the charm, beauty and livable attributes of their surroundings intact. The only way to achieve this is through regulation. It might anger the pro development, big business types who don't care about anything but the size of their . . . um developments, but you know, who cares? I'd rather live in a nice place than have perfect cell reception. Of course I live in Texas, but I notice Mr. Jobs does not. He might like Texas because of it's lax regulations, but he would never live here.

So, to fight one extreme, you have to go to another extreme? As in, there's no middle ground? There's proper regulation, and then there's excessive regulation.

I think some SF folks are concerned with looks, but then there are also those involved in fearmongering about RF radiation, blocking cell towers might actually make the situation worse as the phone radio has to increase its power for the signal to reach the tower.
post #58 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post

Apple 'says' all manner of things... One learns to discern what's most likely rubbish - Like This!

This is absolutely true so STFU since you have no clue - just spoke with my daughter who lives right in the city in SF and her neighbors just banded together and successfully stopped the building of a cell tower in her neighborhood which has a big park and gets quite busy on the weekends. The city should confiscate their cell phones for being such jerks.
post #59 of 137
people who respond to dahard are sadder than he is. I mean.. literally he wastes his or her life on this bullshit. That's pretty fukn pathetic. There are just people out there with empty lives who fill it with ... this... shudder. Anyways...

But to respond to him.. why go down that intellectual drain? that's pretty pathetic too.
post #60 of 137
i can speak from first-hand experience as a native san franciscan.

our local government is so corrupt—and unless you grease the palms of city hall, you'll never get anything done. there was (and still is) an abandoned building (part of it was a theater) on divisadero street several years ago. the owner/developer wanted to put condos in. a neighborhood group wanted to preserve all or at least part of the original structure. they finally reached a compromise with one person from this group holding out. even the local supervisor told them to take the deal. the city had to deny the developer. apparently, this guy wanted the developer to create a living space for him—after the developer had made all these concessions.

san francisco city government is a real joke. and beware, gavin newsom is at the head of it all. he may very well be your next lt. governor if californian's don't wise up. the alternative really sucks, too, so i think we're royally screwed.
post #61 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

This is the first time San Francisco has been known to not fully embrace a few rods!


i got nuthin :/

That's not San Francisco bashing, that's something else entirely, you backward-ass fuckwit.
post #62 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_dog View Post

i can speak from first-hand experience as a native san franciscan.

our local government is so corruptand unless you grease the palms of city hall, you'll never get anything done. there was (and still is) an abandoned building (part of it was a theater) on divisadero street several years ago. the owner/developer wanted to put condos in. a neighborhood group wanted to preserve all or at least part of the original structure. they finally reached a compromise with one person from this group holding out. even the local supervisor told them to take the deal. the city had to deny the developer. apparently, this guy wanted the developer to create a living space for himafter the developer had made all these concessions.

san francisco city government is a real joke. and beware, gavin newsom is at the head of it all. he may very well be your next lt. governor if californian's don't wise up. the alternative really sucks, too, so i think we're royally screwed.

What a troll.

Poor real estate developers. They're so victimized and it's the big bad single individuals that are the real baddies.

Way to speak truth to power.

Can't imagine why anyone would want to preserve the way our city looks.

Maybe all of those old victorians with aluminum siding from the 60s and 70s, and all those cheap, squared-off stuccos apartment buildings from the 50s and 60s are a clue...
post #63 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_greer View Post

This is San Francisco - ATT needs to make them look like banana HAMMOCKS, they would be approved in three HOURS!

sorry, couldn't resist!

OMG you're so...so....

idiotic.
post #64 of 137
Well, I use my iPhone in Dallas and I can reproduce a cell-tower hand-off problem 100% where the phone ALWAYS drops a call, shows 0 bars and right after the call is dropped, it climbs back to 5 bars.

No matter how I hold it (iP4) and it also always happened with my old 3G.

So regardless of the 3-week speedy Texas tower additions, the phone has a glitch switching between some towers...
post #65 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by donarb View Post

Dude, you do understand that Apple does not have any pending requests for cell towers? Anywhere, in any city in the world. You know why? Because they are not in the business of providing cell service. Call your supervisor and ask what towers are proposed for your neighborhood and what is the holdup.

sorry, you lost me at "dude".
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post #66 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

This is the first time San Francisco has been known to not fully embrace a few rods!


i got nuthin :/




No, that's funny.
post #67 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Biscuits View Post

What a troll..

Do you deny that SF local government isn't a mess? It's like NYC in the 80's, in a lot of ways.
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post #68 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

SF is the land of special interests and left-wing-looney-lobbyists. 3 years is probably optimistic. It is the most dysfunctional city I've ever seen in a developed nation. And, for what it is worth, I can confirm that there are most certainly dead spots all over, not just for ATT.

I almost never make posts on Apple sites that even touch on politics, but I'm so moved in this case.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post

I live near Chicago. Many cell phone providers collaborated and decided to share a new tower. It took over 2 years for the local politicians to agree to it and in order for it to get approved, the tower had to be seamlessly integrated into an existing church steeple. They literally had to build a giant, tall brick tower, fill it internally with antennas, and top it with a cross.

Amazing. Now I know why my cell phone bill is so high.

Just wait. If this is what happens on a local gov't level when the save-us-from-ourselves class runs things, imagine how long it will take for the feds to approve a new life-saving procedure under the thousands of pages of O-Care legalese and the umpteen zillion unlegislated policies that will be generated by legions of administrators.

I have seen the future and it's a byzantine labrinyth run by a privileged political oligarchy in league with too big to fail donors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Insert generic San Francisco bashing here ___________.

I see I am too late.

Yep. You are too late. A beautiful place, lots of interesting folks, but SF began turning itself into a joke decades ago. Too bad it's not funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

The cell phone companies are taking the wrong approach. They need to push micro and pico-cell sites in buildings and on street lights that cover a radius of 100m or less. Traditional tower installations are a lost cause; there isn't the spectrum to heavily centralize the infrastructure.

For San Francisco, that would be a worst-case total of 4,000 pole-top towers... at a cost of less than $10k per tower. Triple that to cover the SF factor, but you are still coming out pretty far ahead. Ricochet was able to do it for higher power boxes twelve years ago...

If you're right, right on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_dog View Post

i can speak from first-hand experience as a native san franciscan.

our local government is so corrupt—and unless you grease the palms of city hall, you'll never get anything done.

All the latest PC nostrums and corruption too (and yes SF has at least its share). Does it get any better?

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post #69 of 137
.....
post #70 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post

I almost never make posts on Apple sites that even touch on politics, but I'm so moved in this case.....

Just wait. If this is what happens on a local gov't level when the save-us-from-ourselves class runs things, imagine how long it will take for the feds to approve a new life-saving procedure under the thousands of pages of O-Care legalese and the umpteen zillion unlegislated policies that will be generated by legions of administrators.

I have seen the future and it's a byzantine labrinyth run by a privileged political oligarchy in league with too big to fail donors.


Yep. You are too late. A beautiful place, lots of interesting folks, but SF began turning itself into a joke decades ago. Too bad it's not funny.

If you're right, right on.


All the latest PC nostrums and corruption too (and yes SF has at least its share). Does it get any better?

There are reasons it's still a beautiful place and not a place that's nothing but fast food joints, big box stores and hills crowded with nothing but cell towers and buildlings that went up in 6 months and look like they were designed in 6 minutes.

Gee, I can't imagine how we San Franciscans ever avoided that fate....

You're an anti-liberal doofus who picks an end and then seeks a means to justify it.

San Francisco will find a way to make it work. It always has. It may take longer, it will cost more money, but it will protect the beauty of the City and the environment and probably set a few precedents along the way.

Burying cable and electrical wires underground is far more expensive than running then across poles down every street but most places do underground these days anyway.

Sometimes the long term is more important than immediate gratification and sometimes the better solution is not to pave paradise.
post #71 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post

SF is the land of special interests and left-wing-looney-lobbyists. 3 years is probably optimistic. It is the most dysfunctional city I've ever seen in a developed nation. And, for what it is worth, I can confirm that there are most certainly dead spots all over, not just for ATT.

San Francisco is one of the most beautiful places on earth, and most people who live in the city CHOOSE to live here and love living here and are happy to live here.

We set the course for our own future and every place has its share of dysfunction.

We have different priorities than most places and Silicon Valley has a HUGE chip on its shoulder about the City forever because it's a boring, featureless beige landscape where one municipality blends into the next.

Pity.
post #72 of 137
3 years? Nothing takes 3 years.
post #73 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

IDK if they are called micro-cell towers, but the providers have been placing small cell antennas on buildings in urban areas for a long time. You still have to find suitable buildings to put them on.

It's not necessarily limited to buildings. Where I am the phone companies put micro cells in all kinds of things to give great reception and no complaints. Metal rubbish bins, benches, civic sculptures and other normal city facilities are all used and often paid for the phone companies to put their gear in. No one even notices these things, because there's no sign of these things serving a dual role.

They use these in combination with bigger antennas hanging off a range of buildings and the days of public complaints about it are long, long gone.
post #74 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by God of Biscuits View Post

There are reasons it's still a beautiful place and not a place that's nothing but fast food joints, big box stores and hills crowded with nothing but cell towers and buildlings that went up in 6 months and look like they were designed in 6 minutes.

Gee, I can't imagine how we San Franciscans ever avoided that fate....

You're an anti-liberal doofus who picks an end and then seeks a means to justify it.

San Francisco will find a way to make it work. It always has. It may take longer, it will cost more money, but it will protect the beauty of the City and the environment and probably set a few precedents along the way.

Burying cable and electrical wires underground is far more expensive than running then across poles down every street but most places do underground these days anyway.

Sometimes the long term is more important than immediate gratification and sometimes the better solution is not to pave paradise.

Do you understand that sometimes when things take too much time and cost more money they may not happen at all? Companies have a finite amount of both and though they may not come out and criticize one city or another publicly they definitely lose interest and begin to ignore places that become nothing but a sinkhole of frustration and resources. Perhaps that's the outcome you might like.

Unfortunately for you, saying "San Francisco will make it work" appears to imply a belief that it's the city alone that can make it work. Whereas in reality it needs both the will of both the city and the companies which help serve it to achieve the goals that most citizens expect of their city.
post #75 of 137
LOL, the idea that politicians can ban whatever they want and it's engineers job to "just make it work anyway" might be nice but not realistic. There are only a limited way to do lots of things in this universe. e.g. In the whole universe of possibilities there is only 1 way we know of to make new human beings.

Lots of things are like this. Only a small number of cause and effect can make them happen. Banning is more dangerous than it would seem!
post #76 of 137
This is what some look like in Maine.

- http://www.flickr.com/photos/vonstringcaldinkal
post #77 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

Reception here is so bad. AT&T has gone to court with the some of the homeowners association here, and still could not get one extra cell tower approval. Then it was put on the city ballot during the election, and it still failed to pass.

Some neighborhoods in California are impossible to get even a single cell tower installed, even on the freeway. Sometimes you wonder wether these local activists understand that neighborhoods belong to everyone. And just a few a mile in next city, cellphone reception is at optimum because there are several cell towers.

So the situation in San Francisco is not too bad compared to South Orange County, Ca.

Do the hills of san fran make the signal problem worse worse ??
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post #78 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by WelshDog View Post

I live in Texas and have for most of my life. How shall I put this? Uh, Texas and all of it's cities are ugly. Very, very few people here have any real appreciation or knowledge of design - whether it is phones or city planning. They like to pretend they care about their past, but they don't. Texas treats their cities and neighborhoods just like Los Angeles - they tear them down when they get old thus destroying any desirable character. So a cell tower is a non-issue. The community of Wimberly near Austin tried to stop a cell tower from going up and they failed miserably.

I admire communities that try to keep the charm, beauty and livable attributes of their surroundings intact. The only way to achieve this is through regulation. It might anger the pro development, big business types who don't care about anything but the size of their . . . um developments, but you know, who cares? I'd rather live in a nice place than have perfect cell reception. Of course I live in Texas, but I notice Mr. Jobs does not. He might like Texas because of it's lax regulations, but he would never live here.

I agree-I live in SF and I have lived all over the United States.... and ya know-SF is probably one of the most beautiful cities in the world... We are famous for our politics (good and bad), beatniks, hippies, and fags, our crooked street where you will most definitely feel straighter, the shrimp louie, alcatraz, cable cars etc.- But our voters don't like plastic bags, cigarettes at the pharmacy and i reckon antennae towers that would ruin the beauty of our neighborhoods that we try to preserve.

One of the problems in SF though is all of the BIG hills and lack of areas without residents living as much above business. So electromagnetic radiation is an issue. I read a report about a year and a half ago that stated that phone companies could lower the EMR emitted extremely safe levels by placing more smaller towers and every US cell provider has dismissed all the science regarding this and opts for the much more harmful larger towers.

Anyhow-I am babbling but heck I am sure happy I don't have to look at the rest of the country day to day-I'll take poor reception over strip malls and industrial wastelands, and house complexes - walmart - fast food - freshly mowed grass lawns in the dessert - and Lady effin' GAGA
ANY DAY!!
post #79 of 137
If you want something in SF that benefits everyone, improves safety and increases the quality of life then you wait 3 years. But let a group of pervs file to be able to march around naked or hold a public S&M party and they'll probably walk out the door with permit in hand. Yep, I'd want to live there.
post #80 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

This is the first time San Francisco has been known to not fully embrace a few rods!


i got nuthin :/

I think what you were trying to say was that if AT&T made them look like big penises instead of banana trees, then the SF constituents would be all over the idea.

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