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RIM, Nokia respond to Apple's "Antennagate" press conference - Page 7

post #241 of 543


Good you posted this.
post #242 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

no one missed this. what you are missing is that this appears to meaningfully effect a very very small number of iPhone 4 users, and that remedies are available to them from a free case to full refund.

absolutely agree.
post #243 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

no one missed this. what you are missing is that this appears to meaningfully effect a very very small number of iPhone 4 users, and that remedies are available to them from a free case to full refund.

Then, what is the point of the endless posting of the same links? What do they prove? That Nokia is clever enough to put their antennas out of the reach of physical contact?
post #244 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTel View Post

Jobs exposed the industry's dirty little secret and now RIM and Nokia are crying about it. They need to fess-up too.

I think we just have some poor losers, Gizmodo, out there that want to take Apple down a few notches if they can.

While this may be true, these other companies have Models that dont react that way whereas Apple has only one model that has this problem. Not the same thing.
post #245 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

How about posting something constructive for once.

Click the link:

http://androidforums.com/

Begin posting.
post #246 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

absolutely agree.

If you agree, why do you go around posting videos of phones no one on this forum cares about to make a case that "other phones do it too"?
post #247 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

Then, what is the point of the endless posting of the same links? What do they prove? That Nokia is clever enough to put their antennas out of the reach of physical contact?

and yet they are subject to the same effect. they even have a warning about it in their documentation. the person posting the link is showing that evidence is out there that all phones are subject to it, to varying degrees, and that no-one is calling out other manufacturers to the extent that they are apple.

edit: additionally, given that the issue meaningfully effects such a very small number of iPhone 4 users, why is it that whilst "no-one cares about" similar issues with other phones all and sundry seems to care about this issue in apple's phone?
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post #248 of 543
99.45% is simply astounding - way to go Apple.
post #249 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

The iPhone 4 is the only phone that can go from 5 bars to 0 bars with the touch of a single finger at a small part of the case.

Apple is right to be criticized for this obvious design flaw. This is not standard attenuation.

It is standard. With the 4.0.1 update, you can't take the phone from 5 to 0 bars, now that the bars are actually roughly analogous to signal strength. So, your criticism is no longer valid, and was only valid initially because the bar signal display was not analogous to signal strength. In other words, without Apple changing anything on the phone but evening out the signal level across the display of bars, the "problem" went away, because it was never there in the first place.
post #250 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

and yet they are subject to the same effect. they even have a warning about it in their documentation. the person posting the link is showing that evidence is out there that all phones are subject to it, to varying degrees, and that no-one is calling out other manufacturers to the extent that they are apple.

Even still, Apple survived a media blitz that would have brought any other phone manufacturer to its knees.
post #251 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat View Post

It'd be a super easy fix that wouldn't affect the appearance of the phone one bit. They could just apply some clear type of coating to the antennas that will keep our hands from touching them and causing all this BS....Can't believe they didn't do it in the first place when one of their OWN techs voiced concern...

Unfortunately it's not quite that easy. For the signal loss due to de-tuning of the antenna, yes, some sort of coating would be part of a solution, though a coating over the gap between the two would actually act as a capacitor, which is not a block to RF (it is to dc), so that in itself would de-tune the antenna (you can actually use a capacitor in your antenna circuit to change it's resonant frequency and tune it in). I would imagine they could make some tweaks inside in conjunction to a coating which would alleviate that however. It's 10 years since I did any work on antennas and to be honest my memory is a bit rusty.

What a clear coating would not help is the attenuating effect of the proximity of your hand. The attenuating effect of your hand is nothing to do with whether or not there is an insulator between your hand and the antenna, more it is to do with the fact that there is something that is mostly water (remember, we're about 70% water) which will happily soak up RF energy and lower the received (and transmitted) signal. The only way around that is to move the antenna away from your hand, which the bumper will do a bit, and moving the antenna inside would do.

However, from what I've seen (and I admit, I don't have an iPhone 4 to play with, so I'm basing this off the videos I've seen), I suspect this problem is being caused almost entirely by de-tuning, and a coating, coupled with some internal tweaks would resolve it. I'm basing that on the idea that since a bumper does seem to solve the problem, and it only moves your hand a couple of mm away from the antenna, it's not really changing the attenuating effect of your hand, so the fact that it fixes the problem would point to de-tuning being the root cause).

That said, a clear coating is not exactly straightforward, given it will be going on an area of the phone that is handled/rubbed a lot, and would be sensitive to rubbing off. I'm not saying there is not such a coating out there, and there might be something really easy (I'm not a materials engineer), but I would think it's actually a bit of a challenge.
post #252 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulant View Post

Even still, Apple survived a media blitz that would have brought any other phone manufacturer to its knees.

Yes, and that's a good thing.

Apple hopefully have learned a lot from this:

Hopefully, they'll realize this isn't a fight anymore it's a guerrilla war for the new frontier. Hopefully this will remove any complacency and bring the best out in Apple.

I want to see them forget the brakes, put the pedal to the metal and take those curves like they were cornering on rails
post #253 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by dillio View Post

>>This is a rant<<

I am an Apple and Steve Jobs fan, but disappointed at how this "Antennagate" was handled.

First, Steve was a conceited in his tone, and it just goes along with the hubris from Apple lately.

I would have to say that you are extremely poor at reading people if you think SJ was "conceited in his tone." The primary emotion expressed in his body language and tone, throughout the presentation was anger. And the comment about people wanting to tear Apple down was a direct expression of this anger.

And it's not surprising that he was angry. Apple made a great product with the iP4, and the press, driven into a frenzy by ignorant bloggers and others with an agenda, went completely hysterical criticizing the company over what is essentially a non-issue. You'd be pissed too, and rightly so.
post #254 of 543
The most important thing everyone should take away from this is that smartphones these days are cutting edge and all of them have issues, none are immune.

The process of finding the right smartphone is just a case of picking your poison.

It may be wishful thinking but maybe smartphone owners will actually start being nicer to each other after this, because now more than ever it's obvious that your brand new smartphone isn't the "best one", it's just the "best one for you".
post #255 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky_ozone View Post

iphone 4 drops more call than iphone 3GS. this is not my judgement this is what one of yesterdays topic on this forum.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...phone_3gs.html

less than one extra call per hundred. And given that this was AT&T data that they didn't want public, less than one extra call could mean anything between 0 and 1, maybe 0.999, maybe 0.0001, maybe something in the middle, but it's a non-issue, and the actual numbers may not even show statistically significant differences.
post #256 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsenka View Post

I'm really surprised at people Apple a pass on the "the others guys do it too" defense.

It's called being rational.
post #257 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

laugh out loud. the stats don't back you up so you resort to this clap-trap. if i spent hundreds of dollars on something that ties me into a contract in which i will spend a couple of thousand dollars more, and face the prospect of using this "faulty" product for 2 years minimum, i'd be calling the manufacturer about the problem immediately. people aren't apathetic when it comes to these amounts of money.

See you would fall in that 0.55% figure that jobs pulled out. You would be suprised to see the actual number of people that complain about an issue they have.
post #258 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post

I assume 'fanning' refers to fanning a flame, what's the j for? Joke?

Unlike you, I am not scared about posting under my real name. If you are that grown up that you need to make fun of peoples name, then I feel sorry for you.
post #259 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by davesw View Post

The only people really affected by all these are Android trolls like you jealous of the iPhone 4.

I don't own an andriod phone, and I don't intend to purchase one either, I am not jealous of the iPhone 4, infact I am not jealous of a "phone" in general.
post #260 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

Here it is Saturday after a feeding frenzy. There are only 220 some posts to this thread-- mostly antis and pros (like myself) just hanging on... playing!

It is Sunday, has been for 16.5 hours, maybe the issue is you are living in the past.
post #261 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

Man you're a tool. So the problem is only valid if the phone is over $100? Go home.

Wow, you are hiding behind a fake name and the best insult you could come up with is "tool". Can't wait to see what you will think of when you turn 13.

The Nokia 1100 has the antenna in the upper back of the phone, it is not in the general location that people generally hold a phone. The iPhone has the antenna directly located where people hold the phone. When the phone itself costs at least six times more (I am only guessing as to the price of a Nokia 1100, the retail was probably less than $100) it should be a lot better. Apple stuffed up, and they are trying to worm their way out of it.
post #262 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post

The whole thing is way overblown, to the point that it seems like there is an entity behind it. Apple is doing remarkably well in all aspects right now. This year alone, they released two blockbuster products and moved their Mac market share up to 10%, which must have more than a few people worried and or jealous.

i can bet you its
GIZMODO
post #263 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I don't own an andriod phone, and I don't intend to purchase one either, I am not jealous of the iPhone 4, infact I am not jealous of a "phone" in general.

Nor do you seem to have any real point at all, besides wanting to recycle a bunch of already discredited criticism.
post #264 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Do me a favor, use factual data to make comments and do not just use words for sake of it like 'massive'. It does not matter were you grip the phone on other smartphones, the point is the same effect happens. People grip their phones different depending on the design and their personal choice, so i doubt the way the experiments were undertaken in Apple labs are less credible.

This issue doesn't occur in the same was as Apple claims on all smartphones. I have tried serveral phones to replicate in a similar manner as Apple claimed and to replicate I would have to grab firmly around the screen to effect the siginal, and that would be pointless since I would have trouble seeing the screen. Apple designed the phone so you had no choice but to grab the antenna when holding it, do you have trouble with this "fact"


Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Note: 0.55% of total ATT users registered an issue and return rate is 1/3 of that compared to 3GS.

So are you saying the 0.55% figure Jobs stated was US only, it doesn't include the people in Europe that also purchase the iPhone 4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

If I had been RIM and Nokia, I would have kept my mouth shut, because saying that its Apple's problem and you know, you have the same issue, well lets all act like ostrich stick our head in the ground.

Maybe Apple should have kept their mouths shut and not dragged others into their issue, after all it is the iPhone 4 that the iPhone users are having the issue with, not the other brands.
post #265 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Nor do you seem to have any real point at all, besides wanting to recycle a bunch of already discredited criticism.

I beg your pardon? Maybe you should take off those Apple glasses of yours, or stop sucking at the Apple teat for a minute, the only discrediting taking place are by the people ignoring the issue.

I was planning on replacing my iPod classic with a new model iPod Touch later in the year, at the moment I have no confidence in doing that, I think I will just stay with the classic for a year or two longer.
post #266 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Click the link:

http://androidforums.com/

Begin posting.

As I said, i don't own any Android devices, so why would I post there? I do own several Apple devices though, hence why I am here.
post #267 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

But doesn't Apple like telling people that their products are "magical"?

Yes, but didn't Arthur C. Clarke say "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"?

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post #268 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I don't own an andriod phone, and I don't intend to purchase one either, I am not jealous of the iPhone 4, infact I am not jealous of a "phone" in general.

yes you are.
post #269 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I beg your pardon? Maybe you should take off those Apple glasses of yours, or stop sucking at the Apple teat for a minute, the only discrediting taking place are by the people ignoring the issue.

Well, if you have a point, make it. So far, all you've done is, as I've said, recycle garbage.

Quote:
I was planning on replacing my iPod classic with a new model iPod Touch later in the year, at the moment I have no confidence in doing that, I think I will just stay with the classic for a year or two longer.

Yes, you should be very worried about the iPod Touch's cellular antenna. It may not be the product for you after all.
post #270 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

and yet they are subject to the same effect. they even have a warning about it in their documentation. the person posting the link is showing that evidence is out there that all phones are subject to it, to varying degrees, and that no-one is calling out other manufacturers to the extent that they are apple.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what this proves. Perhaps they're not calling out Nokia, in this specific example, because they put it right there, in the product documentation, that antennas can be sensitive devices. On the other hand Apple claimed a design (and performance) victory in placing the antenna directly in contact with the environment. You shout it from the mountain tops, and any competitor and any purchaser is going to pay more attention to it as a 'feature'. To address your point below, I think this is why people care about it. A bit of tall poppy as well.

Quote:
edit: additionally, given that the issue meaningfully effects such a very small number of iPhone 4 users, why is it that whilst "no-one cares about" similar issues with other phones all and sundry seems to care about this issue in apple's phone?

I am two minds as to whether I will plump for the iPhone on this news. I am one of the people who prefers to have the phone without a cover. I am also left handed, and I also handle the phone (presently I have a 3GS) in a way that 'bridges' the achilles heel of the phone. If it's a manufacturing issue then do I take the risk that I get a good one? The repair policy here is to send the device away which means I would be without the phone for a week at a time. Another option is to pay for an 'advanced exchange program' where I get slugged $100 to have Apple post me a replacement and I send the dud one back. That is an option I won't be taking. The third is to drive four hours to the nearest Apple church and I sure as hell won't be doing that.

Given I have a Macbook inside which the only original part remaining is the DVD Drive and that I am on my second warranty 3GS these are realistic considerations for me. I don't particularly mistreat my devices but I can say that in my experience Apple's stuff looks great but are physically so-so. I will say that the 1gen iPod touch I have has been to hell and back and hasn't missed a beat.

If it's an outright design issue, and reports I've read here and elsewhere conflict, then it's a no-brainer. I am keeping my 3GS and will wait for the next iPhone.

Like I said in a previous post I think Apple's done about what they can do to mitigate. I guess it's up to the media as to whether they swallow what they've been fed. They need to be placated because hardly anyone in Apple's crosshairs get their Apple fix from Appleinsider/MacRumors/TUAW.
post #271 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what this proves. Perhaps they're not calling out Nokia, in this specific example, because they put it right there, in the product documentation, that antennas can be sensitive devices. On the other hand Apple claimed a design (and performance) victory in placing the antenna directly in contact with the environment. You shout it from the mountain tops, and any competitor and any purchaser is going to pay more attention to it as a 'feature'. To address your point below, I think this is why people care about it. A bit of tall poppy as well.



I am two minds as to whether I will plump for the iPhone on this news. I am one of the people who prefers to have the phone without a cover. I am also left handed, and I also handle the phone (presently I have a 3GS) in a way that 'bridges' the achilles heel of the phone. If it's a manufacturing issue then do I take the risk that I get a good one? The repair policy here is to send the device away which means I would be without the phone for a week at a time. Another option is to pay for an 'advanced exchange program' where I get slugged $100 to have Apple post me a replacement and I send the dud one back. That is an option I won't be taking. The third is to drive four hours to the nearest Apple church and I sure as hell won't be doing that.

Given I have a Macbook inside which the only original part remaining is the DVD Drive and that I am on my second warranty 3GS these are realistic considerations for me. I don't particularly mistreat my devices but I can say that in my experience Apple's stuff looks great but are physically so-so. I will say that the 1gen iPod touch I have has been to hell and back and hasn't missed a beat.

If it's an outright design issue, and reports I've read here and elsewhere conflict, then it's a no-brainer. I am keeping my 3GS and will wait for the next iPhone.

Like I said in a previous post I think Apple's done about what they can do to mitigate. I guess it's up to the media as to whether they swallow what they've been fed. They need to be placated because hardly anyone in Apple's crosshairs get their Apple fix from Appleinsider/MacRumors/TUAW.

tough call mate - tough call

The way I see it is if Apple we're to redesign the phone they'd move the antenna inside - which would be equivalent to the iP4+Cover which is available now. So it comes down to do you need the iP4 features ? if not don't change, if you do, go for it
post #272 of 543
The 1100 is a dual band 2G GSM phone, it has no WiFi, Bluetooth or 3G radios to take into consideration.

It is useless as a comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Wow, you are hiding behind a fake name and the best insult you could come up with is "tool". Can't wait to see what you will think of when you turn 13.

The Nokia 1100 has the antenna in the upper back of the phone, it is not in the general location that people generally hold a phone. The iPhone has the antenna directly located where people hold the phone. When the phone itself costs at least six times more (I am only guessing as to the price of a Nokia 1100, the retail was probably less than $100) it should be a lot better. Apple stuffed up, and they are trying to worm their way out of it.
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post #273 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Detuning an attenuation are not the same thing. They said bumpers until September 30th because they'll change the antenna in some way by then. I can wait, and I will.

I don't know how they'll do it, but I'm going to wait as well just in case they do have an even better solution than the curret one and one that makes it even that much better than the competition.
post #274 of 543
Did anyone is as sensitive as I'm when using cell phones? My head gets heated up after good 5 minutes of use....guess what phones? Many models of Nokia, Ericsson and Sony Ericssion. Make another guess.....all these phones of the past hangs! I've given up even the most simplest of phones from them.....but I've no choice to carry the current Nokia 5370, due to company's requirement to carry one, which also has a mind of its own...hangs!

Decided I'm going to get one iPhone4 once its available in little red dot....if it cooks my brain or just works 7x24...365.
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post #275 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what this proves. Perhaps they're not calling out Nokia, in this specific example, because they put it right there, in the product documentation, that antennas can be sensitive devices. On the other hand Apple claimed a design (and performance) victory in placing the antenna directly in contact with the environment. You shout it from the mountain tops, and any competitor and any purchaser is going to pay more attention to it as a 'feature'. To address your point below, I think this is why people care about it. A bit of tall poppy as well.

well, this "feature" has been rated the best in class by many reviews, despite the issue at hand.
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post #276 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

See you would fall in that 0.55% figure that jobs pulled out. You would be suprised to see the actual number of people that complain about an issue they have.

no, i just don't believe that there are vast numbers of people out there who cbf'd calling apple care and are willing to spend thousands of dollars in putting up with a faulty product.
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post #277 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbo63 View Post

the problem here is the media storm over this issue. Does the phone have a design flaw? It looks like it. But it only appears to affect a small portion of users. That doesn't make it okay. That doesn't make it acceptable, but for crying out loud it's not the end of the world! Especially when other phones exhibit that same behaviour, yet no one goes loopy over that.

Apple's competitors see this as an opportunity to get some bad press for apple. But don't dare expose the same flaws in their phone! That's not allowed! What a flipping joke!

Apple pride themselves on having high standards and executing well. At no time have i ever heard steve or apple claim that they are perfect. They're not perfect. They will screw up from time to time.

There is no proof that they chose aesthetics over performance. Since this problem is not affecting all phones, it's not unreasonable to consider that it may simply be a manufacturing flaw? Perhaps they thought that they had a way to make this work well, but there are some problems that they didn't foresee.

All apple did was put the signal strength situation in perspective by demonstrating that many other phones suffer from the same thing. They admitted that they are not perfect. They admitted as hard as they try, the iphone 4 isn't perfect nor were the previous flavours of iphone. They offered a free bumper or case for anyone who is having difficulty while they determine the best way to deal with this situation and fix it right. If you're still not happy, they'll give you a full refund. What is not to like about that?

Also, i'd like to remind people that there is always a certain amount of risk buying the first version of anything, whether it's a car, a computer or phone. If you have to be the first one on the block with a new toy, you run the risk of it not being perfect and you usually pay top dollar. That's just the way it is.

I think that apple's response is totally reasonable. Mind you some of steve's off-the-cuff comments early on were probably not the best... But that's steve you take the good with the bad.

Rim, nokia, htc's phones are good, but far from perfect, yet no one is jumping up and down screaming about their shortcomings. No apple's competitors are pissed that apple has done so well in the smartphone arena so they become the target. I'm certainly not going over to a pro-rim site and start talking trash about rim. They make decent stuff and we can all buy whatever phone we want we don't all have to use the same phone!

I have friends and family that have been through two to four rim phones in the two years that i've had the same iphone 3g, and i don't go around criticizing there choice of phone. What's the point?

At the end of the day, rim, nokia and the rest feel threatened by apple's success and i don't even understand that, there is plenty of market share for everyone to do well.

- +1
post #278 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson View Post

Unfortunately it's not quite that easy. For the signal loss due to de-tuning of the antenna, yes, some sort of coating would be part of a solution, though a coating over the gap between the two would actually act as a capacitor, which is not a block to RF (it is to dc), so that in itself would de-tune the antenna (you can actually use a capacitor in your antenna circuit to change it's resonant frequency and tune it in). I would imagine they could make some tweaks inside in conjunction to a coating which would alleviate that however. It's 10 years since I did any work on antennas and to be honest my memory is a bit rusty.

What a clear coating would not help is the attenuating effect of the proximity of your hand. The attenuating effect of your hand is nothing to do with whether or not there is an insulator between your hand and the antenna, more it is to do with the fact that there is something that is mostly water (remember, we're about 70% water) which will happily soak up RF energy and lower the received (and transmitted) signal. The only way around that is to move the antenna away from your hand, which the bumper will do a bit, and moving the antenna inside would do.

However, from what I've seen (and I admit, I don't have an iPhone 4 to play with, so I'm basing this off the videos I've seen), I suspect this problem is being caused almost entirely by de-tuning, and a coating, coupled with some internal tweaks would resolve it. I'm basing that on the idea that since a bumper does seem to solve the problem, and it only moves your hand a couple of mm away from the antenna, it's not really changing the attenuating effect of your hand, so the fact that it fixes the problem would point to de-tuning being the root cause).

That said, a clear coating is not exactly straightforward, given it will be going on an area of the phone that is handled/rubbed a lot, and would be sensitive to rubbing off. I'm not saying there is not such a coating out there, and there might be something really easy (I'm not a materials engineer), but I would think it's actually a bit of a challenge.

Wow! The first logical and a good technological post in ~ 200 posts! Please continue.
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post #279 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic8Ball View Post

So you're saying most phones are insensitive wenches and the iPhone is a sensitive beauty?

Don't touch her there unless you want her to go off

The other phones don't attenuate and de-tune as much because they're covered in layers and layers of plastic. You can do the same with your iPhone ie put it in a cover.

If you're an iP4 owner, you need to ask yourself why do you own the iPhone?

To make calls and use the Apps or because it's beautiful? So beautiful you need to see it naked all the time ?

The iPhone is a delicate beauty that still charms and does everything she promised even when dressing in a "haute couture" cover.

Long term I expect our sexy iPhone 4 to wear a thin see through figure hugging coating, that some would say looks like it was sprayed on

Love it!

And wouldn't be surprised if this is what Apple does. The chemical engineers are working overtime.
post #280 of 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

well, this "feature" has been rated the best in class by many reviews, despite the issue at hand.

and is useless for me for the reasons I outlined in a previous post because the issue at hand will directly affect me.
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