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Anti-Semitism / Anti-Israel shift

post #1 of 92
Thread Starter 
The following is a quote from Israel's most respected newspaper 'Haaretz' it was written by one of Israel's moderate politicians ( from the left wing party Meretz ) , this guy was one of the first to condemn Israeli occupation of the OT and has served in many high ranking positions in successive Israeli governments including minister of Justice and minister of Education.
I wanted to get the ball rolling on this one since there has been soo much discussion re Israel/Palestine on this forum and I think that in order to understand this issue its important to see where our information and oppinions come from especially here in Europe

So go on, tear into it .....
_________________________________________________

An anti-Semitic Europe? No, but...

By Amnon Rubinstein



European parliamentarians touring the Jenin refugee camp last week. The European press has covered the "Jenin massacre" with obsessive hysteria.
(Photo: AP)

The extreme decisions by the Council of European Nations illustrate an anti-Israeli hysteria that is now washing over Western Europe. Israel is now in the same league as South Africa during the apartheid era. European Union ambassadors boycotted the annual embassy reception for Israeli Independence Day in London - rude behavior, considering that Independence Day is not the celebration of a particular government, but of the Jewish state that was established in the wake of the destruction of European Jewry.

Not all criticism of Israel is wrong, and not every anti-Israeli decision is tainted with anti-Semitism. A visit to Gaza can turn any friend into someone who is hostile toward Israel. The prime minister's declarations about the settlements are outrageous; establishing settlements in Samaria appears - rightfully so - to be intolerable provocation; and the siege on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat looks like deliberate humiliation of an elected leader, though the European council should be reminded that Slobodan Milosevic was an elected leader when Europe, through NATO, decided to brutally attack Serbia, demanding his extradition.

Above all, there's a fundamental misunderstanding at large. Europe regards the intifada as a local conflict - powerful Israelis attacking weak Palestinians under military occupation. Most Israelis, on the other hand, regard themselves as being under siege in a sea of hostile Arab Muslims, with the Palestinians the tip of the spear aimed against them. This is an important difference that explains the hostility toward Israel more than any argument about anti-Semitism.

Nonetheless, how does one explain the hatred voiced against the Jewish state even in moderate newspapers? And how can one explain the huge difference between support for Israel in the United States and the European support for the Palestinians?

Three British weeklies dealt with precisely this issue last week. The conservative Spectator published an article by Melanie Philips in which she asks and answers "Why the Jews are always to blame," and in which she vigorously defends Israel. The Economist fairly explained the disparity between the United States and Europe as being linked to their different attitudes toward terror attacks against civilians. In contrast, the leftist New Statesman continued is attacks on the Jewish lobby in the United States, stating that it is responsible for Washington's support for Israel.

The New Statesman article strengthens the argument Philips made about latent anti-Semitism because the piece in the leftist weekly attributes everything to Jewish money - "60 percent of the contributions to the Democrats come from the Jews" - and does not consider the possibility that there is some justification for supporting a democratic state that is under attack from murderous, suicidal attackers.

Hostility toward Israel cannot be explained on a backdrop of anti-Semitism. The fact is that not too long ago, in the days of Oslo, Israel was the love of Europe, and former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was its hero. But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head.

When should a wave of anti-Semitism be feared? Not only when Jews are attacked, but when there is a special need to come to their defense. The London-based Sun recently ran an article headlined "The Jewish faith is not an evil religion." Evil? Following the attacks on Jews and the burning of synagogues? Why the sudden need for defense of this kind?

The Council of European Nations and European states are not anti-Semitic, but the hysteria against Israel and Jew-hatred are both obsessive. Readers of important European newspapers would not know there was violence in the world outside of the "Jenin massacre." Mark Stein, writing in the Daily Telegraph, says that of 30 conflicts underway around the world right now, 28 involve Muslims.

For hundreds of years, many Christians believed the blood libels. There are no more blood libels anymore, but Israel is not presented as a normal state, rather as something monstrous. Europe is not anti-Semitic, but a deeply-rooted tradition over generations has stamped itself on attitudes toward the Jewish state.

In the days of the French revolution, the Count of Clermont-Tonnerre said, "The Jews should be denied everything as a nation, but granted everything as individuals." That saying is not dead either, and is translated nowadays as: For the Jews as individuals, everything; for the Jewish as a minority community, almost everything; for the Jewish state, almost nothing.
__________________________________________________ _______

The Article can also be read <a href="http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157040&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">Here !</a>

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #2 of 92
Seems right on to me. Even a bit reserved considering the source.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #3 of 92
Criticism of Israel != anti-semitism.

Even though he tries to say moderate he still has to spout that victim garbage. "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."

I'm not worried about Israel's safety against the Arab nations around it. If they tried to come after Israel again millions of Arabs would be turned into glowsticks before they even got there. Israel has beaten the crap out of them before and there's no reason to think it wouldn't happen again.

I also don't think the description of Palestine as the "tip" of an Arab "spear" is accurate at all. Palestinians get screwed over by both sides because neither side likes them because of the way they act.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #4 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Criticism of Israel != anti-semitism.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is exactly what this article didn't say you twat .. read it !

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Even though he tries to say moderate he still has to spout that victim garbage. "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."
</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you dismiss the fact that there have been many Anti Semitic attacks in Europe against synagogues and other Jewish targets recently ?
Isn't Israel under attack ? 450 dead Israelis isn't enough for you ? why is it that you choose to be so one sided ?
You can't even begin to realize what its like to loos 6 million of your nation .. it happened only 50 years ago, with a little less luck me and most of the people I know would not be alive were it not for amazing luck or extreme bravery.... you just don't realise what the Holocaust and 3 attempts since then to exterminate us did to the Israeli psyche ... your totally wrong thinking Israel is so very strong.. or worse you simply don't care...

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
I'm not worried about Israel's safety against the Arab nations around it. If they tried to come after Israel again millions of Arabs would be turned into glowsticks before they even got there. Israel has beaten the crap out of them before and there's no reason to think it wouldn't happen again. I also don't think the description of Palestine as the "tip" of an Arab "spear" is accurate at all.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

OH man you are clue-less they have huge armies these days they have Chemical and Bio weapons Egypt has a huge US equipped army... even if they wont be able to destroy us they can cause us terrible casualties and besides the point is ( re spearhead) that that's how Israelis feel and its Israelis you must convince in this case...

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Palestinians get screwed over by both sides because neither side likes them because of the way they act.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Arab states are still very happy to use their cause for their own interests even if they don't give a shit about their actual problems a prime example of this is Sadam's, Iran's and OBL's use of the Palestinian cause for their own means !

And at the end of all this you haven't addressed the main point of this article which is the unfair hearing Israel gets in the European press and political arena ... as usual its groverat highjacking the agenda to slate Israel and Israelis again .......
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #5 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>

Arab states are still very happy to use their cause for their own interests even if they don't give a shit about their actual problems a prime example of this is Sadam's, Iran's and OBL's use of the Palestinian cause for their own means !

And at the end of all this you haven't addressed the main point of this article which is the unfair hearing Israel gets in the European press and political arena ... as usual its groverat highjacking the agenda to slate Israel and Israelis again .......</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm remembering the last days of Apartheid South Africa; racist white South Africa really, really hated it when Europeans began the boycotts, when the press coverage there got to be overtly hostile and the governments la bas began to get critical. You might remember. How they hated it.

"They don't understand the nature of our problem!" said white South Africa. And "We're swamped, surrounded, and they hate us! They need no excuse to kill us!" And "It's up to us to deal with this problem the best way we know!"

And the government there got more and more violent, and the criticism grew... and well, you know the rest.

Well, I'm sorry if all the newspapers are ganging up on poor ikkle Israel, but really this must stop. Really. This has no more to do with anti-semitism than the popular criticism of Apartheid South Africa had to with anti er... big, fat people of Dutch descent. It might sting, but right now those people defending Israel are in the same position as, say, Mr Hendrik van de Merwe of Johannesburg was 15 years ago.

Ya in the wrong. Ya racist. Ya don't have the imagination to see a way out of it. And history ain't gonna be nice.

Sorry about that.

edited cos I was rude

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
post #6 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Criticism of Israel != anti-semitism.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did you even read the article? Here let me post a paragraph from it that states just that...

Not all criticism of Israel is wrong, and not every anti-Israeli decision is tainted with anti-Semitism. A visit to Gaza can turn any friend into someone who is hostile toward Israel. The prime minister's declarations about the settlements are outrageous; establishing settlements in Samaria appears - rightfully so - to be intolerable provocation; and the siege on Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat looks like deliberate humiliation of an elected leader, though the European council should be reminded that Slobodan Milosevic was an elected leader when Europe, through NATO, decided to brutally attack Serbia, demanding his extradition.

Is reading for comprehension around here at an all time low or what?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #7 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>

I'm remembering the last days of Apartheid South Africa; racist white South Africa really, really hated it when Europeans began the boycotts, when the press coverage there got to be overtly hostile and the governments la bas began to get critical. You might remember. How they hated it.

"They don't understand the nature of our problem!" said white South Africa. And "We're swamped, surrounded, and they hate us! They need no excuse to kill us!" And "It's up to us to deal with this problem the best way we know!"

And the government there got more and more violent, and the criticism grew... and well, you know the rest.

Well, I'm sorry if all the newspapers are ganging up on poor ikkle Israel, but really this must stop. Really. This has no more to do with anti-semitism than the popular criticism of Apartheid South Africa had to with anti er... big, fat people of Dutch descent. It might sting, but right now those people defending Israel are in the same position as, say, Mr Hendrik van de Merwe of Johannesburg was 15 years ago.

Ya in the wrong. Ya racist. Ya don't have the imagination to see a way out of it. And history will remember you as a pitiless fascist.

Sorry about that.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK, at least you're sorry about calling me a racist .. how nice and civilized ...but you still think I am <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

1. There is no comparison between Israel and South Africa what-so-ever ! if you claim there is prove it !
2. Don't know about you but as I have said in this forum many times I believe in the right of Palestinian self determination and in an Independent Palestinian state how does that make me a racist ? is it because I refuse to be blown up by suicide bombers and instead chose to get them before they get me ?
3. Believe me , once the Palestinians stop their attacks Israel will withdraw and negotiation will resume and there WILL be a Palestinian state but not under the threat of terror.
4. Its clear you use the South Africa comparison to paint Israel in a bad light .... why don't you come up with some useful arguments instead of this - 'you're all racist and evil and wrong'' rhetoric .....
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #8 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>
1. There is no comparison between Israel and South Africa what-so-ever ! if you claim there is prove it !
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have argued that there is some similarities between SA and Israel especially when looking at the economy. I really don´t want to repeat my arguments (that wasn´t met at the time) but I will bring an article by Desmond Tutu on the issue <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4403427,00.html" target="_blank">here</a>
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post #9 of 92
Oops... self determination for Palestine, good, getting rhetorical, me, bad.

I should have read the thread closer, and Rashumon I'm sorry. But as for the Israeli and South African hypothesis, really truly there's a lot there. I'm looking for the link right now. Post it up soon soon.

And I'm sorry about 'pitiless fascist'. That's lame. I changed it.
post #10 of 92
Aha. This is from the 'Not in My Name' organisation; South Africans of Jewish descent speaking out against the recent actions of Israel.
<a href="http://psc.za.org/pscsaourdeclaration.htm" target="_blank">'Not In My Name'</a>

And I'd just like to reiterate, PCKilla or no PCKilla, there are solutions to be found. Everything is permitted: true dat.
post #11 of 92
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Did you just call me a twat?

--

I know he was trying to make that point, but he still had to include it. He couldn't help himself, he still had to say, "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."

It's kind of like me writing a long article about how fair and objective PC_Killa is and then my last sentence is "PC_killa is a twat."

Get it?
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #12 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

I have argued that there is some similarities between SA and Israel especially when looking at the economy. I really don´t want to repeat my arguments (that wasn´t met at the time) but I will bring an article by Desmond Tutu on the issue <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4403427,00.html" target="_blank">here</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

OK some points to prove my point.

1. Israel is a democracy its in fact the only country in the middle east where Arabs live under a democratic system and can vote, have political parties etc... some even serve in the Israeli Army and fight along side Jews to defend our land ! did you know that the general in command of Israel's southern zone (that includes the area's around PA controlled Gaza) until not so long ago is a Druz Israeli Arab ?
In SA blacks didn't have the right to vote couldn't serve in the security forces and any attempt by them at forming political parties was brutally curtailed !

2. Israel has a large majority of jews ( about 5 in 6 Israelis are Jews) SA the ratio was the other way around few million whites ruling and oppressing something ( not sure about the correct number) like 20 million Blacks....

3. This is the most important difference - The Aparthide system was enshrined in law that was racist. non of Israel's laws are racist ...indeed Israel has one of the most liberal constitutional systems in the western world which is quite remarkable considering the fact that its in a perpetual state of war..

4.Israel has recognized Palestinian aspirations and was having a peace process with the PA ( which is the De facto rulers of the West bank and Gaza) it was then attacked repeatedly by the PA and militant organizations..... All of the recent Israeli actions are as a result of Palestinian violence not as a result of a deliberate attempt to oppress Palestinian Independence ..in SA the whites were only interested in suppressing Blacks there was no attempt at negotiations and all of the initiative for the aggressive white behavior came from white policy and not as a response to black attacks.
The simple proof of that is that before the Intefada started there were no targeted killings, incursions or road blocks in the OT.

The settlement policy is a bad Israeli mistake but that alone can not justify calling Israel an Aparthide state !

The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a political one between two groups which are fighting for the same land .... it has very little to do with racism or with religion. Its a deep complicated problem, the two sides have a fair claim to the land and a compromise must be struck in order for both to be able to live in peace. the Important thing is to stop the violence, then for Israel to withdraw from all areas where military incursions have taken place and then to stop the settlements and then for both sides to get back to the table and sort this out with the help of the US ..... what I said is not only my opinion its called the Mitchel plan... comparing Israel to SA is neither true nor is it conducive to any real progress .. its cheap propaganda that helps no one !

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #13 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Did you just call me a twat?

--

I know he was trying to make that point, but he still had to include it. He couldn't help himself, he still had to say, "But when Israel is under attack, the 2,000 year-old monster also rears its head."

It's kind of like me writing a long article about how fair and objective PC_Killa is and then my last sentence is "PC_killa is a twat."

Get it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why is that ? is it not the case that anti-semitism is a 2000 year old monster ?

Sorry mate but your reply was a twat's reply you didn't answer the points and you were inflammatory ...

as John Cusak said in the film Gross Point Blank - ' why does everyone take it personaly ? its not personal !' <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #14 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>

OK some points to prove my point.

1. Israel is a democracy its in fact the only country in the middle east where Arabs live under a democratic system and can vote, have political parties etc... some even serve in the Israeli Army and fight along side Jews to defend our land ! did you know that the general in command of Israel's southern zone (that includes the area's around PA controlled Gaza) until not so long ago is a Druz Israeli Arab ?
In SA blacks didn't have the right to vote couldn't serve in the security forces and any attempt by them at forming political parties was brutally curtailed ! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes arabs in Israel have the same rights as other Israelis (and aren´t even forced into the military afaik). But for decades Israel have been in control of larges areas with palestinians who haven´t had the same social or political rights. If it had been a temporary occupation I would have been able to understand it but not when it continues for decades. Either give the land free or take responsibility of the people.

[quote]<strong>2. Israel has a large majority of jews ( about 5 in 6 Israelis are Jews) SA the ratio was the other way around few million whites ruling and oppressing something ( not sure about the correct number) like 20 million Blacks....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not importent and not valid taking my first comment into consideration. But even if it only was 5% that suffered it would still be wrong. The danish queen and her family can´t vote. Their politcal rights has been them denied and even thought it is only &lt;10 persons its still wrong (but then again I want us to become a republic but thats a different story)

[quote]<strong>3. This is the most important difference - The Aparthide system was enshrined in law that was racist. non of Israel's laws are racist ...indeed Israel has one of the most liberal constitutional systems in the western world which is quite remarkable considering the fact that its in a perpetual state of war..</strong><hr></blockquote>

What does it matters if the way people in the occupied areas are treated according to a law if the result is the same? And please tell me why a palestinian refugee can´t return to his old house in Israel and live there like he did before 48 while a american or russian jew who (or anyone in his family for generations) have never been in the middle east can settle in Israel without any problems.

As I said also on the economy you can compare SA and Israel. Large part of the "dirty" work in Israel is done by palestinians from the occupied areas. Israels economy is suffering big time because of this when the boarders are sealed like now.

I know you want the palestinians to have their own state and you don´t like the settlements but that doesn´t change the policy of Israel. It created settlements and still do and did under the peace process.
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post #15 of 92
Israel's actions are inexcusable,as well as are the actions of any and all Palestinians that support terror.There is very strong evidence linking Sharon and Peres to atrocities during the 1967 war,so it is no surprise that it is happening again.They never should have been allowed to come to power.What the Israeli government is doing in the territories is far over the line of any legitamate military operation to root out terrorists,mostly they are terrorizing and killing innocent people.
post #16 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Rick1138:
<strong>mostly they are terrorizing and killing innocent people.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you mean killing a few dozen terrorists that are firing AK-47s and setting off bombs at you then I guess we're guilty as charged.
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post #17 of 92
[quote]If you mean killing a few dozen terrorists that are firing AK-47s and setting off bombs at you then I guess we're guilty as charged.<hr></blockquote>

I would fire AK-47s and set off bombs if a foreign army invaded my nation, too. I don't think I would be a terrorist for it, either.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #18 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
But for decades Israel have been in control of larges areas with palestinians who haven´t had the same social or political rights. If it had been a temporary occupation I would have been able to understand it but not when it continues for decades. Either give the land free or take responsibility of the people.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That was relevant before the Oslo deal was signed, then Israel was seriously wrong and EVIL but in 1992 Rabin was elected and the peace process begun and since then Israelis have been trying to fix the wrong they have done ...until the intefada erupted ! also most Palestinians are not under Israeli rule since then.... they are under the PA... a 'very liberal and civil government'

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
What does it matters if the way people in the occupied areas are treated according to a law if the result is the same? And please tell me why a palestinian refugee can´t return to his old house in Israel and live there like he did before 48 while a american or russian jew who (or anyone in his family for generations) have never been in the middle east can settle in Israel without any problems.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is a huge difference between a warped system of racist laws ( like in SA or Nazi Germany) and temporary state of military occupation. There were laws in the OT under military rule as well and they wrn' t racist laws.... anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses ? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947 they sure as hell can't go back does that make India and Pakistan Aparthide states ? or Serbs chased out of Kosovo under UN and NATO supevision ? do you see how mad this can get ? Israel is a land of the Jews not by choice but because its has been proved to be the only measure that would guaranty the Jew's survival.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
As I said also on the economy you can compare SA and Israel. Large part of the "dirty" work in Israel is done by palestinians from the occupied areas. Israel's economy is suffering big time because of this when the boarders are sealed like now.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry Anders but on this point you are totally wrong its the Palestinians who are far more dependent on Israeli jobs ... Israel's economy is in problems not because of the lack of Palestinian work force but because the fighting and the terror and especially the world IT recession etc... Israel can cope very well without Palestinian workers ( It has been for over 2 years now ) its certainly not like it was (and still is BTW) in SA where all of the Production, agricaltural and mining jobs were being done by blacks and the economy would crumble without that system, its not even close to that structure.

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #19 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Rick1138:
<strong>Israel's actions are inexcusable,as well as are the actions of any and all Palestinians that support terror.There is very strong evidence linking Sharon and Peres to atrocities during the 1967 war,so it is no surprise that it is happening again.They never should have been allowed to come to power.What the Israeli government is doing in the territories is far over the line of any legitamate military operation to root out terrorists,mostly they are terrorizing and killing innocent people.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Prove all these alegations or get lost !
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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post #20 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]<strong>
There is very strong evidence
</strong>
Prove all these alegations or get lost !<hr></blockquote>


I'm still waiting for you to come up with some facts or explanations to what you said, especially blaming Peres ( a moderate man who is accepted around the world and a Nobel Peace prize laureate ) and Sharon for war crimes. Also prove your claim that Israel is deliberately targeting killing and torturing civilians ... If you can't back it up then why do you post these lies as if they were accepted facts ?
This kind of thing proves my point re the whole issue of this thread .... People these days are happy to assume the worst about Israel just because they saw it in some dodgy web site ... why is it that people enjoy getting so wound up about Israel and loose all sense of proportion when it comes the Israeli Palestinian conflict ?
Facts become meaningless and History ( even very recent ) becomes redundant.

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #21 of 92
Well you obviously are aware of the allegations,and I don't believe they are simply the made up fantasies of dodgy web sites,and I don't believe that Peres deserved a Nobel Peace Prize,nor do I believe Arafat did,neither of them are men of peace.I don't enjoy becoming wound up about Israel at all,I'm bringing this up because I believe the actions of the Israeli government are wrong,I'm against killing and hate by anybody,whether its by Jews,Arabs,Nazis, or the US government,you haven't read some of my other threads.
post #22 of 92
Imagine the same (absurd) situation here in America...US Army tanks and bulldozers demolishing the homes, businesses, police stations, farms and villages of those who are unapproved? I wonder if such folk would react violently, or would they just obediently take it up the backside and succumb to the edict "this is your lot, like it or get out of town"?

Of course this godawful and insane situation should never happen here. We have, thank God (!), a secular government, and for ever may it remains so.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #23 of 92
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

There is a reason for the kitchen being there


mika.

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #24 of 92
Hey Mika. What colour is your kippot?

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #25 of 92
I never paid attention to it. Do you?

mika.

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #26 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Rick1138:
<strong>Well you obviously are aware of the allegations,and I don't believe they are simply the made up fantasies of dodgy web sites,and I don't believe that Peres deserved a Nobel Peace Prize,nor do I believe Arafat did,neither of them are men of peace.I don't enjoy becoming wound up about Israel at all,I'm bringing this up because I believe the actions of the Israeli government are wrong,I'm against killing and hate by anybody,whether its by Jews,Arabs,Nazis, or the US government,you haven't read some of my other threads.</strong><hr></blockquote>

NO, I am unaware of any allegations ! please enlighten me ! Facts please !
It seems pathetic and sad to me that you simply sit there throwing accusations around unwilling to point me to any evidence or even to where you got the idea [that Peres] is a war criminal from !
I thought that recourse to the truth is the one of the basic elements of a fair and free liberal society... back your points up if you can .. i would love for you to teach me something I don't know ...
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #27 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Imagine the same (absurd) situation here in America...US Army tanks and bulldozers demolishing the homes, businesses, police stations, farms and villages of those who are unapproved? I wonder if such folk would react violently, or would they just obediently take it up the backside and succumb to the edict "this is your lot, like it or get out of town"?

Of course this godawful and insane situation should never happen here. We have, thank God (!), a secular government, and for ever may it remains so.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Excuse me, but, What are you talking about ?

Isn't the US bombing the shit out of Afghanistan in retaliation of the 911 attacks ? is it not justified to defend one's self against someone who want's to kill.

How is your example relevant at all to what's happening between Israelis and Palestinians ?

Again I say Explain, Prove, and reason with me !

If you dare..... :cool:
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #28 of 92
rashumon, don't take this so seriously..
these guys are just out for a sport...

tiraga benadam.
post #29 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>rashumon, don't take this so seriously..
these guys are just out for a sport...

tiraga benadam. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I know .....f...grrrrr
I'm cool.....
i'm chilled .....

fhjda......

..... Its just really funny how no one here seems capable of addressing the truth or even debating it ..... whenever I post a reasoned response stating facts people just ignore it and instead I get those 'Israel is a barbarian Aparthide state and Sharon is a murderer' type posts..... I really like challenging this hypocrisy....

Guys ... lets see you get into a real debate .... New is the only one who has bothered to actually discuss things and answer points ... and in some cases he has made me think ... lets see you people stand up for what you say so readily ......

I guess this is the basic point of this thread ....... If your opinions of what Israel is doing are rational how come you won't base them on facts and reason ?
and if they aren't reasoned opinions but just impressions you got from wherever, is it possible you are being racist about this ? relishing the opportunity to finally look at the jews in disdain.... after so many years when it was such a taboo, unconsciously thinking- 'the jews were always the bloody victims but finally we can forget that and have a go at them'.
Just a thought ...i'm not blaming anyone .. I'm just wondering out loud ......
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #30 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>New is the only one who has bothered to actually discuss things and answer points ... and in some cases he has made me think ... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Grrr. What about me?

[quote]That was relevant before the Oslo deal was signed, then Israel was seriously wrong and EVIL but in 1992 Rabin was elected and the peace process begun and since then Israelis have been trying to fix the wrong they have done ...until the intefada erupted ! also most Palestinians are not under Israeli rule since then.... they are under the PA... a 'very liberal and civil government'
<hr></blockquote>

I would never say that PA is liberal or civil. I don´t hope I have given the impression of that. But the point is that the autonome areas was crippled from the start. Large (most?) areas was still controlled by Israel and any development of a real (economically) independent Palestine was impossible. If you wanted to go from one place in the west bank to another you would be controlled several times by Israeli military posts. That doesn´t give you the impression of living in a independent area.You have to have a coherent area of control and a credible assurance of stability before anyone will invest in Palestine and the people of Palestine can become economically independent of Israel.

And after Oslo things didn´t just went nicely along up until some cracy palesitinians started the the current intifada. Rabin showed a lot of courage when signing the Oslo agreement (and him, de Klerk and Khatami are my political heroes) but since then Israeli leaders have not wanted to take the tough decision regarding settlements for instance (I think I read somewhere that the most active periode regarding building settlements was in the 90´s but I am not sure about that). When I was in Israel in 98´ the general feeling among Israelis was that they were building peace with the palestinians, the economy was good and everything went the right way. But among palestinians the feeling was that nothing real happened and the settlements continued. I would agree that PA had a great deal of responsibility but also the Israeli government must take responsibility.


[quote]There is a huge difference between a warped system of racist laws ( like in SA or Nazi Germany) and temporary state of military occupation. There were laws in the OT under military rule as well and they wrn' t racist laws....<hr></blockquote>

The difference for the palestinian that was stopped at checkpoints while Israelis could move freely was/is minimal. And for most palestinians the temporary state has lasted for their whole life.

[quote]anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947<hr></blockquote>

1) Like with other issues its not what we are discussion here. What happened in other arab coutries aren´t the responsibility of the palestine stopped and controlled by military forces several times a day.

2) I would compare the tactics you describe to what went on in Germany in 33-35. It isn´t apartheid since they didn´t use the continued suppression of one part of the population to the benefit of another.

[quote]Israel is a land of the Jews not by choice but because its has been proved to be the only measure that would guaranty the Jew's survival. <hr></blockquote>

IMO Israel should never have been created but is a fact today. Jews could not point at the area that now is Israel and claim anything else than a religious connection to the area. They wasn´t a majority in the area in the 30´s or 40´s and even Theodore Herzl talked about Argentina as an alternative to settle down. Jews are not subjected to more persecution in Europe or US than homosexuals or redhaired. Should they also get their own land because of that?

[quote]Sorry Anders but on this point you are totally wrong its the Palestinians who are far more dependent on Israeli jobs ... Israel's economy is in problems not because of the lack of Palestinian work force but because the fighting and the terror and especially the world IT recession etc... Israel can cope very well without Palestinian workers ( It has been for over 2 years now ) its certainly not like it was (and still is BTW) in SA where all of the Production, agricaltural and mining jobs were being done by blacks and the economy would crumble without that system, its not even close to that structure. <hr></blockquote>

Simply not true. Even a couple of years back when things were more peaceful when the boarders were closed for weeks (due to seldom occations of suiside bombs and fightings) many industries suffered much beacuse they didn´t have palestinian work force.And just because palestinians are more dependent of jobs in Israel than Israel is of their work doesn´t make the comparisment with SA less right. It only shows that Israel have made Palestinians economically dependend of Israel as descibed above (crippled areas = not able to create economic development)
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #31 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Grrr. What about me?


</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Love, off course you count as well , you two are my Scandinavian love twins ...

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I don´t hope I have given the impression of that. But the point is that the autonome areas was crippled from the start.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was a work in progress ..... some times progressing too slowly I agree... the end result was always meant to be a continuous Palestinian territory that was viable .... look at the final borders offered by Barak at Sharem and anyway this doesn't have much to do with the Aparthide theory we were talking about .
I agree Israel wasn't the perfect partner and the issue of the settlements is a pain in the arse for me as well but the main reason palestinians were growing impatient was that the PA was no better then the Israeli military rule that preceded it ... it did not benefit the Palestinians and instead of educating them for peace and trying to move on with solving their problems it was busy inciting against Israel and blaming Israel for all of the PA's shortcomings. remember also that there were plenty of suicide bombings during the Oslo years and the Israeli nation was constantly pressured to simply accept these as the victims in the struggle for peace and in most cases Israel didn't retaliate.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
____________________________
quote:anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947
______________________________

1) Like with other issues its not what we are discussion here. What happened in other arab countries aren't´t the responsibility of the Palestine stopped and controlled by military forces several times a day.

2) I would compare the tactics you describe to what went on in Germany in 33-35. It isn´t apartheid since they didn't´t use the continued suppression of one part of the population to the benefit of another.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. It is relevant since you asked me why can't Palestinians return to their ancestral homes inside Israel. you used that to justify calling Israel an Aparthide state, by your logic these Jews who were driven out of Arab lands should be allowed to go back and reclaim their possessions and homes ...... its really very simple.
why does the right of return and compensation go only one way in favor of Palestinian refugees , most israelis have been refugees at one time or another.

2. Israel did not use the suppression of the other side for the benefit of itself.. come on....
Israel occupied the land in a war that was imposed on it, it then held the territory for too long because there was no one willing to deal with Israel for it (most Arab states and PLO rejected all forms of negotiation or compromise with Israel until Oslo was signed) Israel cannot alone be blamed for the amount of time it took to begin sorting this out. the way you describe it as a calculated system is nonsense.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
IMO Israel should never have been created but is a fact today. Jews could not point at the area that now is Israel and claim anything else than a religious connection to the area. They wasn't´t a majority in the area in the 30´s or 40´s and even Theodore Herzl talked about Argentina as an alternative to settle down. Jews are not subjected to more persecution in Europe or US than homosexuals or redhaired. Should they also get their own land because of that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That really saddens me to read you say that .... and the very fact you do vindicates my view that Israel's creation was necessary.
Not subjected to more persecution then homosexuals or redhaired .... 2000 years of endless violence against jews culminating in the systematic extermination of 6 million humans is not a big deal ?
Let me tell you a story about my father-
He was born in Berlin before the war. as a very young boy he survived the war in german occupied Czechoslovakia as a German Arian using forged documents .... after the war when he came back to Germany, despite all that had happened German boys kept beating him and savaging him for being a jew ..... in 1948 as a 13 year old boy he decided he's had enough and joined a jewish youth group who emigrated to the newly formed Israel were he could be free to live as a Jew and run his own life. You might not understand this story but the basic fact is that now that we Jews have our own land we don't need to convince anyone but ourselves anymore, we are not a defenseless minority like we were for last 2000 years depending on the mercy of others .... so you can think what you like but israel is here to stay ! and it had to have been created. besides canceling the Jew's right for their national home should apply in this case to Palestinian rights if Jews dont have the right to live in their own land why do the Palestinians deserve one ? After all thy are not being persecuted in the Arab countries were most live these days....
Kid yourself not, without Israel Palestine would never have been possible, the land would have disappeared into neighboring Arab states.
In my opinion the only reason you say what you do is that its too complicated for you to handle the moral implications of this thing ... and you simply choose to look at the tiny piece of history that you live in and draw your conclusions from that ....easy but misguided my friend !

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Simply not true. Even a couple of years back when things were more peaceful when the boarders were closed for weeks (due to seldom occasions of suicide bombs and fightings) many industries suffered much beacuse they didn´t have palestinian work force.And just because palestinians are more dependent of jobs in Israel than Israel is of their work doesn´t make the comparisment with SA less right. It only shows that Israel have made Palestinians economically dependend of Israel as descibed above (crippled areas = not able to create economic development)
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry mate but you are really being silly and wrong about this.... Israel's dependence on Palestinian workers is MARGINAL ! check your facts. some industries suffer a shortage of workers but that doesn't mean that any damage is done to the economy and its in no way as all encompassing as is the case in SA where if Blacks stop working the country grinds to a stand-still.

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #32 of 92
I can see that the difference between us is smaller than I thought. The main difference is that I look at the situation from each perons point of view in my argumentation both in claming the similarity between Israel and SA and the jews situation.

[quote]It was a work in progress ..... some times progressing too slowly I agree... the end result was always meant to be a continuous Palestinian territory that was viable .... look at the final borders offered by Barak at Sharem and anyway this doesn't have much to do with the Aparthide theory we were talking about .
I agree Israel wasn't the perfect partner and the issue of the settlements is a pain in the arse for me as well but the main reason palestinians were growing impatient was that the PA was no better then the Israeli military rule that preceded it ... it did not benefit the Palestinians and instead of educating them for peace and trying to move on with solving their problems it was busy inciting against Israel and blaming Israel for all of the PA's shortcomings. remember also that there were plenty of suicide bombings during the Oslo years and the Israeli nation was constantly pressured to simply accept these as the victims in the struggle for peace and in most cases Israel didn't retaliate. <hr></blockquote>

The only difference here is that I see it as shared (50/50) responsibility. I know it was a difficult for Israel not to react harder to suicide bombs in the mid 90´s but the non development in the peace process gave PA the argument to hide the corruption behind. With a real area to control PA would lack the argument against Israel and be forced to and have the actual ability to create a state focused on their own development instead of the constant clash with Israel military. The situation we have today is a product of Israel and PA actions between Oslo and 1999.

[quote] It is relevant since you asked me why can't Palestinians return to their ancestral homes inside Israel. you used that to justify calling Israel an Aparthide state, by your logic these Jews who were driven out of Arab lands should be allowed to go back and reclaim their possessions and homes ...... its really very simple. why does the right of return and compensation go only one way in favor of Palestinian refugees , most israelis have been refugees at one time or another.<hr></blockquote>

If any individuals make claim against the saudi government I would support it. Its that simple. A general "Wrong was done to jews in arab countries so wrong was done to US" I can´t support, especially not when it is used to put "justify" the action of Israel. Bad was done to individuals and that cannot be used by a country to justify its actions against a non related group of other individuals.


[quote]2. Israel did not use the suppression of the other side for the benefit of itself.. come on....
Israel occupied the land in a war that was imposed on it, it then held the territory for too long because there was no one willing to deal with Israel for it (most Arab states and PLO rejected all forms of negotiation or compromise with Israel until Oslo was signed) Israel cannot alone be blamed for the amount of time it took to begin sorting this out. the way you describe it as a calculated system is nonsense. <hr></blockquote>

I wouldn´t put all the blame on Israel but for the palestinian in the occupied area the difference is minimal. And I would not call it a calculated system but nonetheless the result was a system as I described and for the individual palestinian the difference between a calculated system and one that emerge from other dynamics is minimal. The result is the same for him/her.

[quote]That really saddens me to read you say that .... and the very fact you do vindicates my view that Israel's creation was necessary.
Not subjected to more persecution then homosexuals or redhaired .... 2000 years of endless violence against jews culminating in the systematic extermination of 6 million humans is not a big deal ?
Let me tell you a story about my father-
He was born in Berlin before the war. as a very young boy he survived the war in german occupied Czechoslovakia as a German Arian using forged documents .... after the war when he came back to Germany, despite all that had happened German boys kept beating him and savaging him for being a jew ..... in 1948 as a 13 year old boy he decided he's had enough and joined a jewish youth group who emigrated to the newly formed Israel were he could be free to live as a Jew and run his own life. You might not understand this story but the basic fact is that now that we Jews have our own land we don't need to convince anyone but ourselves anymore, we are not a defenseless minority like we were for last 2000 years depending on the mercy of others .... so you can think what you like but israel is here to stay ! and it had to have been created. besides canceling the Jew's right for their national home should apply in this case to Palestinian rights if Jews dont have the right to live in their own land why do the Palestinians deserve one ? After all thy are not being persecuted in the Arab countries were most live these days....
Kid yourself not, without Israel Palestine would never have been possible, the land would have disappeared into neighboring Arab states.
In my opinion the only reason you say what you do is that its too complicated for you to handle the moral implications of this thing ... and you simply choose to look at the tiny piece of history that you live in and draw your conclusions from that ....easy but misguided my friend !<hr></blockquote>

Parts of my family (those who lived in other parts of Europe) were killed in german camps too. The family on my mothers side is of jewish origin and I know the history of the jews.But persecution is a personally thing. Today homosexsuals are persecuted more than jews and that counts more for me than what happened to our grandparents. You don´t suffer personally from what happened to your family generations ago. It may sound harsh but try turn it around: Should the young germans feel guilty of what their forefathers did to the Jews, communists et al? Again: what counts for me is the personal experience
today. not what happened to people now dead. Another story is that right wasn´t done to those suffered from Nazi germany. The compensation given in these years to the children is given to the wrong generation 50 years too late. Esp. those money given to jewish organisations is wrong and stupid and supports organisations those dead may not even have wanted to support.

[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>

Sorry mate but you are really being silly and wrong about this.... Israel's dependence on Palestinian workers is MARGINAL ! check your facts. some industries suffer a shortage of workers but that doesn't mean that any damage is done to the economy and its in no way as all encompassing as is the case in SA where if Blacks stop working the country grinds to a stand-still.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Again what benefit Israel gain is of less interest for me. Its what implication it have for the palestinians that concerns me. Unfortunetly I can only give you anedoctic(sp sucks) evidence of companies closing down when the palestinian work force wasn´t available. Again: it wasn´t calculated somewhere that the economic system should develop to this but it did.
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
Reply
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #33 of 92
Grrr... what about me? I can debate too!

(Er... OK then. Forget it.)

I know the debate's moved on since my last post here but I feel obliged to "reason" with Rashumon; he's still looking for someone to come up with a good reason to call Sharon a war criminal apparently, and it behoves me to put the guy out of his misery.

I've skirted around it in another post, but here it is. Sabra. Chatilla. And I repeat, it was an Israeli enquiry that found the guy culpable.

Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. It was in September 1982 when Sharon, as the head of an occupying force and responsible for the security of those under his governance under Protocol One of the Geneva Convention allowed (Israeli-trained, equipped and logistically supported) Phalange militants into those refugee camps. He had held (very public) talks with Elie Hobeika, Fadie Frem and Zahi Bustan, the leaders of these militia groups, days before the massacres. He could not possibly have been in any doubt about their feelings or their intended actions. He let them in, and the Israeli army let no-one out of the camps. They sealed those camps off, and they let the Christians in. The aim was, I believe, to crush the last of the infrastructure of the PLO.

It lasted for days. The morgues and the hospitals filled up. He could not possibly have been ignorant. Thousands of women and children died, and you can't pretend they were all terrorists. There were lines of men shot in the back, women raped, you know the drill.

The facts are well documented, incontrovertible, and even (generally) agreed upon by the Israeli committee that found your man (what was it?) "loosely culpable," or something like that.

He should be on trial.

And... and... and... PCKilla asking Rashumon to calm down, "these guys are only in it for the sport". This from a man who posted on a public forum that Arabs are "barbarians" and that Arab contributions to sciences, medicine and mathematics are "propaganda." Chill: they're only looking for sport.

Well forgive me if I come looking for "sport", and I am angry, but I've seen a man here making accusations of racism, conspiracy and hypocrisy that simply don't apply as far as he's concerned when it comes to Muslims. And... and... and... oh forget it.

Last points.

Peres is a Nobel Laureate. So is Henry Kissinger.

You may not agree with the proposition that Israel resembles an Apartheid state, but you can't dismiss the argument as "rhetoric" or "propaganda". You've argued the points rationally yourself with your own facts and you know what? I don't agree with your facts either.

(edited because I accidentally implied Peres should be on trial for war crimes.)

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
post #34 of 92
hey cuz

so sending 16 year old girls strapped with explosive belts on mass murder campaigns would qualify you as? civilized ?

mika.
post #35 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>hey cuz

so sending 16 year old girls strapped with explosive belts on mass murder campaigns would qualify you as? civilized ?

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Certainly no more or no less civilised than the man who sanctioned the deaths of 2,500 defenceless men, women and children in refugee camps in West Beirut 20 years ago, no.
post #36 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>

Certainly no more or no less civilised than the man who sanctioned the deaths of 2,500 defenceless men, women and children in refugee camps in West Beirut 20 years ago, no.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Hmm, so cuz, now you are a mind reader.
I'll remind you it was ARABS and arabs only, that did the killings in those camps. That time it was Christian Arabs. But what do you suppose was their reason? I mean why would they turn so on their loving Muslim brothers?

Could these start to explain some of the reasons:
<a href="http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html" target="_blank">http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html</a>


mika.

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #37 of 92
Not a mind reader, no, but you don't need to be a telepath to conclude that they were hardly the actions of a civilised man. And as we all know, two wrongs don't make a right: I'm not defending the suicide bombers for one moment. But like I said, no more or no less civilised than the actions of your own President 20 years ago. If there's a barbarian competition going on, your own President's in the running. He's up there. Don't defend what he did retrospectively.

The murderers were Arabs but they couldn't have done what they did without the complicity of the Israeli army.

And I followed your link. Er... how dare you? If I were vile enough to suggest that the Jewish people had been suffering for so long that they must be doing something to deserve it, I would deserve to be locked out of this site for good. I would be accused of anti-semitism, quite rightly, and I would be a terrible, terrible man. And all of a sudden it's different when it's Muslims.

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
post #38 of 92
So let me understand you, nothing on that site is true?

Now I dont expect you to follow Israeli politics all too closely, but if you did, youd know that that enquiry was a Bolshevik tactic of the Israeli left designed to send Sharon into political exile. (A trick theyve used many a time, including on our former PM Binyamin Netanyahu). And there is a BIG difference between an enquiry that supposedly found Sharon culpable, and saying the Sharon has sanctioned these killings.

You have blood libeled our PM Sharon and our defense forces here. And just like the latest blood libel of the 500 civilian massacre in Jenin, it is patently false! And you know it! So you are no better than them crude anti-Semites that you so malign.

mika.

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #39 of 92
The Jewish Holiday of Purim.

Special Ingredient For Jewish Holidays is Human Blood From Non-Jewish Youth

"I chose to [speak] about the Jewish holiday of Purim, because it is connected to the month of March. This holiday has some dangerous customs that will, no doubt, horrify you, and I apologize if any reader is harmed because of this."

"During this holiday, the Jew must prepare very special pastries, the filling of which is not only costly and rare - it cannot be found at all on the local and international markets."

"Unfortunately, this filling cannot be left out, or substituted with any alternative serving the same purpose. For this holiday, the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries. In other words, the practice cannot be carried out as required if human blood is not spilled!!"


The article was published by the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam


Looks familiar cuz?
post #40 of 92
Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
So let me understand you, nothing on that site is true?

I can hardly deny it. But that doesn't absolve anyone of the masssacre. It's no excuse, those people didn't deserve to die, and Sharon thought it was politically expedient that they did. That's why he let it happen. Those people didn't deserve that simply because of their faith. No-one deserves to die because of their faith. Not even Muslims.

And there is a BIG difference between an enquiry that supposedly found Sharon culpable, and saying the Sharon has sanctioned these killings.

'Culpable' is word that means "guilty, criminal, deserving punishment." (Oxford English Dictionary.) Ignore the eye-witness reports, the journalism, the pages of testimony and the historical discussion that followed. It's still a fact of history: my man sanctioned those killings by arming the killers, doing nothing to stop them (Protocol One of the Geneva Convention) and preventing people escaping. Actually, this goes further than 'sanctioning'.

You have blood libeled our PM Sharon and our defense forces here. And just like the latest blood libel of the 500 civilian massacre in Jenin, it is patently false! And you know it! So you are no better than them crude anti-Semites that you so malign.

I don't know what a blood libel is, but as far as I can see, there's no libel of any kind here at all. These are proven facts so they cannot, by definition, be libellous.

As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.

And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism. And your grounds? I have pointed out that your government might possibly have had a part to play in the escalation of the terrible violence in Palestine and Israel.
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