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post #81 of 92
Hmm, very interesting post jakkorz. Youd be surprised, but I happen to almost agree with you on many points, accept of-course the part(s) where you lay the blame. Can I ask you question? Why are you hateful or fearful of Zionists/Israelis? I mean what nationality, religion, political group, etc. are you that you feel that it is antagonistic to Zionism, or puts you or your group at odds with Zionism/Israelis?

mika.
post #82 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Hmm, very interesting post jakkorz. Youd be surprised, but I happen to almost agree with you on many points, accept of-course the part(s) where you lay the blame. Can I ask you question? Why are you hateful or fearful of Zionists/Israelis? I mean what nationality, religion, political group, etc. are you that you feel that it is antagonistic to Zionism, or puts you or your group at odds with Zionism/Israelis?

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which parts do you speak of?

I think that word did not appear in my post. After all this is not the intention of the post.

I made the post so that it would be clear that each side has something to say, does claim to be factual, and does believe that it is the righteous.

Second of all, religion has nothing to do with my post. True I posted two religious oriented sites. But their views do not reflect mine. As I have stated, posting something on the net, or writing a book does not make claims in either media to be factual.

Therefore, if we ever want to argue, it is recommended that we use simple logic (i.e. &&, ||, !=, and ==).
post #83 of 92
quote:
Nor do I consider anything claimed by any news paper an established fact.

I agree.

quote:
One other thing I have learnt from reading history. Righteousness will always prevail. No matter how many centuries it will take.

I agree.

quote:
History of the moment and current events are written by the strong to show his righteousness, defend his/her claims, and promote the cause of war and justify all kinds of actions, the good deeds and the bad deeds.

I agree, partially.
You can usually get both sides of the story if you look for it.

quote:
For the scientific oriented minds, Galileo would be dead wrong because the majority of the scientific community back then was determined that everything revolves around Earth. I hope you get the point.

I disagree.
The scientific community was the religious community. They were one and the same.

quote:
Finally, let the people speak for the people, a whole site made by Jewish individuals who are against the establishment of the State of Israel

I disagree.
They dont speak for the people. You can use any measure you like to gauge this. How you came to this conclusion is rather baffling to me.

I asked the questions I did because from the links youve posted, I got the general impression that you are antagonistic to Zionism. I was wondering why that was. Also, being that this is the first post under your name, I was wondering what attracted you, or what compelled you make your first contribution to the forums particularly in this thread?

Anyway, I want you to consider what is the value system that Israel represents and is fighting for, and what is the value system that her enemies represent and are fighting for. How do these value systems differ or coincide with your own value system or that of the particular national, religious, political group(s) you identify with.

Id really appreciate your answers.

mika.
post #84 of 92
[quote]

History of the moment and current events are written by the strong to show his righteousness, defend his/her claims, and promote the cause of war and justify all kinds of actions, the good deeds and the bad deeds.

I agree, partially.
You can usually get both sides of the story if you look for it.

<hr></blockquote>

This is a point that we will argue on and off, since there is a chance of getting out of the blockade enforced by the mass media and the political atmosphere of that particular time. This is of course very logical thus I failed to state it. But here it goes:

.
.
.
Unless the individual is willing to thoroughly investigate such claims at the time.

[quote]

quote:
For the scientific oriented minds, Galileo would be dead wrong because the majority of the scientific community back then was determined that everything revolves around Earth. I hope you get the point.

I disagree.
The scientific community was the religious community. They were one and the same.

<hr></blockquote>

That was directed to those who disliked the so religious example in the paragraph.

Whether the scientific community at the time was religious or not, Galileo was doomed at that time because he dared to challenge the whole community of europe. Though he stated his view supported by scientific notations, he was still doomed because the majority of the vote was against him. History is full of such events where an individual is doomed for what opposes the believes of the masse.

Why do I mention this here anyway? Well, here is the statement:
Democracy != righteousness.

I could go further if you ask me to.

[quote]

quote:
Finally, let the people speak for the people, a whole site made by Jewish individuals who are against the establishment of the State of Israel

I disagree.
They dont speak for the people. You can use any measure you like to gauge this. How you came to this conclusion is rather baffling to me.

<hr></blockquote>

Sorry for putting it that way. What was exactly meant by that is "Let the concerned parties debate themselves". The parties here refer to the two parties involved in the conflict, namely Israelis and the Arabs. Each party has two sides, if not more.

[quote]

I asked the questions I did because from the links youve posted, I got the general impression that you are antagonistic to Zionism. I was wondering why that was. Also, being that this is the first post under your name, I was wondering what attracted you, or what compelled you make your first contribution to the forums particularly in this thread?

<hr></blockquote>

Not "antagonistic" at all. It was couple of your post and rushmon's posts that attracted me to this particular thread; though your (you and rushmon's) views are spread all over in many related threads. Now back to the simple logic:
The Greater Israel establishment is based on historical claims, hence Israel has the right to establish such a Great Israel.
Greater Persia establishment is based on historical claims (note that those claims have no speakers thus far in time), hence Iran has the right to annex parts of Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, etc...
Great Roma .....
Great Greece ....
Great Germany .....
It will be a mess out there. Not to mention Mexico, which was mentioned in another thread.

[quote]

Anyway, I want you to consider what is the value system that Israel represents and is fighting for, and what is the value system that her enemies represent and are fighting for. How do these value systems differ or coincide with your own value system or that of the particular national, religious, political group(s) you identify with.

Id really appreciate your answers.

<hr></blockquote>

It is my personal believe that at this time in history, there is no political, religious, nor national group represents my views. Thus, I chose to keep a distance away from all this "mess" and devote my attention to what my Creator gracefully agifted me, that is: a mind.

Personally, also, I believe that the word value does not, in my sense and understanding of the word, fit any political entity that does exist today. For all those entities are, in one way or another, controlled and influence by attenuated to one's taste religious believes. I see no true Judaism, true Christianity, nor do I see true Islam. Thus, Arabs and Israelis are fighting for survival in the State of Jungle.

I could go further if that does not satisfy your curiosity about my background.

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: jakkorz ]</p>
post #85 of 92
quote
It is my personal believe that at this time in history, there is no political, religious, nor national group represents my views. Thus, I chose to keep a distance away from all this "mess" and devote my attention to what my Creator gracefully agifted me, that is: a mind.

I am still having a lot of difficulty understanding you. I also get the feeling you are not being forthright in your answers for some reason. We all carry some kind of social baggage that influences our understanding of issues. We are all social animals that interact with our social environment. To say that you do not have a national, religious, political, or social identity is rather far fetched to believe. I dont believe you to be a social recluse that lives on an island all by himself and therefore can make such claims. (although I do believe you live on an island). I also believe that English is not your first language. You have obviously immigrated to a country where English is spoken, such as Britain.

quote
Democracy != righteousness.

Dont be so contemptuous of democracy. As far as Im aware, democracy in the long run is the most efficient medium for the marketplace of ideas to operate in. But there must be a fair competition of ideas. (This fairness can be debated either way. Personally Im on the sidelines on this. Im terribly unhappy at the sheer commercialness of most if not all media outlets today). I do believe that in a democracy the most righteous ideas will eventually win out. So here again, I believe your past baggage has influenced your judgment.

quote
I see no true Judaism, true Christianity, nor do I see true Islam

How would you know true Islam when you see it?

quote
Greater Persia establishment is based on historical claims (note that those claims have no speakers thus far in time), hence Iran has the right to annex parts of Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, etc...

The fact that you brought this example, leads me to believe that you are from a Middle Eastern descent. Your constant use of the word righteousness also leads me to believe you are of Islamic origin. Perhaps even Persian? This is further reinforced by the links youve posted.

quote
It was couple of your post and rushmon's posts that attracted me to this particular thread; though your (you and rushmon's) views are spread all over in many related threads.

Cousin, you are not fooling anyone by assuming a new name on the forum. You have only proved my point for me. You are NOT to be trusted! And all that comes out of your mouths is double speak and subterfuge. But then again, I shouldnt even call you cousin, should I? Youre Farsi !!!

That is why you never responded to this post.

[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>hmm... u outed me... i admit it...
u r too cleaver cuz. must run in the family.
u think it runs in the family?

mika.

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

heheh, ..."Nothing is real. Everything is permitted."


mika.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
post #86 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>quote
It is my personal believe that at this time in history, there is no political, religious, nor national group represents my views. Thus, I chose to keep a distance away from all this "mess" and devote my attention to what my Creator gracefully agifted me, that is: a mind.

I am still having a lot of difficulty understanding you. I also get the feeling you are not being forthright in your answers for some reason. We all carry some kind of social baggage that influences our understanding of issues. We are all social animals that interact with our social environment. To say that you do not have a national, religious, political, or social identity is rather far fetched to believe. After all I dont believe you to be a social recluse that lives on an island all by himself and therefore can make such claims. (although I do believe you live on an island). I also believe that English is not your first language. You have obviously immigrated to a country where English is spoken, such as Britain.

quote
Democracy != righteousness.

Dont be so contemptuous of democracy. As far as Im aware, democracy in the long run is the most efficient medium for the marketplace of ideas to operate in. But there must be a fair competition of ideas. (This fairness can be debated either way. Personally Im on the sidelines on this. Im terribly unhappy at the sheer commercialness of most if not all media outlets today). I do believe that in a democracy the most righteous ideas will eventually win out. So here again, I believe your past baggage has influenced your judgment.

quote
I see no true Judaism, true Christianity, nor do I see true Islam

How would you know true Islam when you see it?

quote
Greater Persia establishment is based on historical claims (note that those claims have no speakers thus far in time), hence Iran has the right to annex parts of Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan, etc...

The fact that you brought this example, leads me to believe that you are from a Middle Eastern descent. Your constant use of the word righteousness also leads me to believe you are of Islamic origin. Perhaps Persian? This is further reinforced by the links youve posted.

quote
It was couple of your post and rushmon's posts that attracted me to this particular thread; though your (you and rushmon's) views are spread all over in many related threads.

Cousin, you are not fooling anyone by assuming a new name on the forum. You have only proved my point for me. You are NOT to be trusted! And all that comes out of your mouths is double speak and subterfuge. But then again, I shouldnt even call you cousin, should I? Youre Farsi !!!

That is why you never responded to this post.



heheh, ..."Nothing is real. Everything is permitted."


mika.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Unfortunately, you are far from the truth. Sorry to say, wrong in all your assumptions and conclusions about my background and origins.

It makes me very sad after the articulate responses I got from you.

I could have very possible, as a humble reader of history, mentioned recent Iraq's Nebuchadnezzar as a prime example. I only contemplated about it a moment before I decided to chose a country which have not committed mass massacres against the people of Israel. To my knowledge all the others did, and that would bring emotional, rather than rational response as I have viewed in my response.

I think the IP is logged. Kindly ask any of your internet expert friends to cross check that ID with any other post on the whole list. If that is not satisfactory to you, Kindly forward this request AppleInsiders admins to cross check their database of logged IPs. I post from work which is a 212 class A IP, and from home which is a 64 class A IP.

Assumptions are a bad habit, I advice you to refrain from them as a brother human being.

It is, not to be taken personally, because of people who try to impose their opinion on me, from each group, which made me exclude myself from such gatherings. Have you thought of "solitude"? That is what I practice.

Aside from the above, we go back to the topic at hand.

Like any other claimed to be monotheistic religion (many of which those prime three mentioned do not recognize are monotheistic yet they are of the same origin as my logic tells me) I know it by following its trails of peace, prosperity, happiness, and self satisfaction. All of them started that way as I read, but all descended into the gutters of what is humane. Look around, Christians fighting Christians, Arabs Fighting Arabs, Israelis Opposing and accusing other Israelis with treason and clashes do take place. Not to mention the amount of hatred each of those religion groups have against the others. There are the good ones of course. They can only speak peacefully, though.

Democracy != righteousness

It is painful to state this example, as I always try not to hurt others or remind them of what would hurt their feelings. You leave me no choice, though. I believe as was mentioned in the books of history that the Romans were a democratic entity at the time of their reign in the land of Israel. Yet, I see no righteousness in the way they treated the native Israelis. If you see any, kindly point it out to me.

Of course this could be backed up by many religiously based examples for the religiously influenced person. I will refrain from stating such examples.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, meanwhile, I will assume that you do not exactly understand what I am stating. Let's talk about political entities of this time.

USA is considered, by many, the elite of todays democratic system. Do you believe that policies made and carried out by the States are always righteous? Almost, as opposed to always, does not count, here. Because every policy made on that scale would affect the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, not to mention millions or billions of human lives.

Regarding that quote you put at the end, I admit you got me confused for as long as I was writing this post. Finally I realized that you are thinking that I am not who I am.

Finally, please do not deviate from the subject at hand, namely Anti-Semitism/Anti-Israeli shift, by tracking or trying to signify my political, social, religious, or national background in relation to the matter discussed. Let's talk logic, clean and simple.

If you would like to further pursue this matter in your way, let us start another thread and let us call it "jakkorz arguments and how they are related to his background". Rest assure that if I find any value for my respond to a post in such a thread, I will not hesitate to do so.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: jakkorz ]</p>
post #87 of 92
Look Hassan, you owe me and the rest on this forum an apology. I will not be party to your fraud. Im willing to debate you honestly, but until you do likewise, I will not reply to your posts any longer. This is too bad, because I really feel our debate could have enriched this forum. And we both would have learned much from one another. Contrary to your first impression, Im not a zealot.

mika.
post #88 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by PC^KILLA:
<strong>Look Hassan, you owe me and the rest on this forum an apology. I will not be party to your fraud. Im willing to debate you honestly, but until you do likewise, I will not reply to your posts any longer. This is too bad, because I really feel our debate could have enriched this forum. And we both would have learned much from one another. Contrary to your first impression, Im not a zealot.

mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can not argue against what I said logically, thus you chose to diverge, yet again, from the subject of the matter.
Therefore, I suggest we start a thread regarding the subject "how to verify that Hassan and jakkorz are two different individuals".


Meanwhile ....

A CALL FOR ADMINS
Admins, kindly post my IPs and verify that I and whoever the person Mr. PC^KILLA thinks I am are worlds apart geographically.


Last, as misled in your assumptions and conclusions which you can not even verify nor support; I ask for no apologies, because I care for and cherish the pride of my fellow human being.

---
P.S. This will be the last time that I will give attention and answer back to such accusations.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: jakkorz ]</p>
post #89 of 92
Thread Starter 
Interesting.. this debate... KILLA what are you trying to prove ? who cares where is they guy from ? or if he's Hassan or his brother or third cousin??? who cares
As long as he has something interesting to say that's cool.

[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>
This is a point that we will argue on and off, since there is a chance of getting out of the blockade enforced by the mass media and the political atmosphere of that particular time. This is of course very logical thus I failed to state it. But here it goes:
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes .. this is also the point of this thread as well.... a good example is the fact that European media in general is more biased against Israel simply because left wing politics are more prevalent in Europe and because Europeans see very little gain in supporting Israelis while there is a great deal for them to gain from Arab support ... thats what gets me going .. the fact the Europeans will use [sordid] moral arguments against Israel in order to reinforce their Internal/economic/diplomatic interests re the Arab world and their own internal muslim citizens.
In the US on the other hand .. while there is a more balanced portrayal of the conflict in the press there is also a fair recourse to the fact that US government has interests and that Israel is in line with these .... basically what I'm saying is that there is less duplicity there......

[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>
History is full of such events where an individual is doomed for what opposes the believes of the masse.

Why do I mention this here anyway? Well, here is the statement:
Democracy != righteousness.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

History is also full of examples were determined individuals had huge effect on peoples views, politics, lives and reality.... its more of a personal thing if one person succeeds in educating/forcing his unconventional opinions on the rest of the world .....
How to know weather he is right or not ?.... there I agree with you... time will tell and it always does ....

Re your point about democracy .... like Churchil said.... It's a bad system but its the best one we know... many democracies (including Israel) make mistakes but it shouldn't be allowed to obscure the fact that on average their actions and influence on their surrounding and citizens tilts far more towards the positive then the negative...
Its an imperfect world we live in.

[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>
Personally, also, I believe that the word value does not, in my sense and understanding of the word, fit any political entity that does exist today. For all those entities are, in one way or another, controlled and influence by attenuated to one's taste religious believes. I see no true Judaism, true Christianity, nor do I see true Islam. Thus, Arabs and Israelis are fighting for survival in the State of Jungle.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Let me just add that I really think this conflict has very little to do with religion (unless you look at the few extremists on either side) its a political conflict between two sides who have had a very rough journey through recent history.... both are right up to a point and both deserve better then what they are getting ATM.... to do as some [twats.. ] have done in this forum and blame it all on one side, to demonize that side [as Giant has tried to do in a recent post] and to give credence to the other side's violence is a way to move further from a solution not a route that will lead to peace me thinks...
Which is why I resent EU opinions so much, because it seems that they simply serve to egg Palestinians on and give them a false sense of support for their violent struggle... this provokes Israeli massive retaliatory response ( which in many cases is justified i believe) which in turn leads to more EU condemnation which makes Palestinians believe they have gained something which leads them to more violence...... its a cycle..... and for it to stop there has to be clarity !

BTW Anders I'm still waiting to see if you have more to say re my last response to your post...
and Giant .... you too scared to come out of the shadows and prove your points or simply insult me some more ? I'm waiting for a response... I think calling me and my country fascist deserves far more backing up then the arguments you have supplied me with.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #90 of 92
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>Interesting.. this debate... KILLA what are you trying to prove ? who cares where is they guy from ? or if he's Hassan or his brother or third cousin??? who cares
As long as he has something interesting to say that's cool.

Thanks for your understanding.

Let me just add that I really think this conflict has very little to do with religion (unless you look at the few extremists on either side) its a political conflict between two sides who have had a very rough journey through recent history.... both are right up to a point and both deserve better then what they are getting ATM.... to do as some [twats.. ] have done in this forum and blame it all on one side, to demonize that side [as Giant has tried to do in a recent post] and to give credence to the other side's violence is a way to move further from a solution not a route that will lead to peace me thinks...
Which is why I resent EU opinions so much, because it seems that they simply serve to egg Palestinians on and give them a false sense of support for their violent struggle... this provokes Israeli massive retaliatory response ( which in many cases is justified i believe) which in turn leads to more EU condemnation which makes Palestinians believe they have gained something which leads them to more violence...... its a cycle..... and for it to stop there has to be clarity !

BTW Anders I'm still waiting to see if you have more to say re my last response to your post...
and Giant .... you too scared to come out of the shadows and prove your points or simply insult me some more ? I'm waiting for a response... I think calling me and my country fascist deserves far more backing up then the arguments you have supplied me with.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Let me state that as much as I want to agree with you that the conflict is political, I see it otherwise. Couple of examples might explain the matter:

Arabs are Muslims. The political system of the Arab States, generally speaking, is based on secular foundations. That is so the leaders would be able to bite on their thrones indefinitely. On the other hand, it is only religion that drives the Arab nations citizen. If you put the rest of the Muslim population in the equation, you will have a religious base that hates Arabs or cares less for them, but because of their faith, they have to support a none Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem. If not Islamic sovereignty, then they might give up to Christian one, but never an Israeli one.

Israel is a state founded on religion, period. I understand that there are many Israelis who do not practice Judaism. No one can argue against that. I also understand that it is secular in the sense of religious freedom and as far as election system goes. But the State of Israel its self officially celebrates Jewish holidays, and the Sabbath on Saturday. It further grants the Israeli citizenship to whoever is reasonably able to prove that he/she is Jewish, not to mention the control of marriage being put into the hands of the rabbinate. Last but not least, where would His excellency Mr. Sharon be without the Shas party and their leader his holyness Rabbi Yosef? The flag of Israel states another example also. There are many examples of course, but before you think of refuting what I stated, I kindly ask you to read the rest until I recap on what I am saying.

USA fits into that catagory so well, that the nation's citizen might flame me for not stating otherwise. In God we Trust is written on all their dollar bills. Look around at those who support the establishment of Greater Israel, they are all religious individuals and quote from the Bible if not seldom then it would be often. Latest news has it that ethnic cleansing should be practiced on the Occupied Territories and have all natives deported to settle in any of the other Arab lands. That view was stated by a individuals from both of elected houses of the USA Congress. Those same same individuals even refered to those lands as Judean and Samiria, i.e. Biblical names. Need I mention all the influential groups? If you have a chance to follow cable TV in the States, watch sunday morning shows. That should give you an idea.
You should notice that the citizens of the USA (the ones that I really cherish and appreciate so long as I live) are not into politics unless driven by some kind of religious believe, or pure opportunistic politicians who think of war as a way out of economic problems and into prosperity.
Who gets hurt at the end? Ordinary people.

To recap all the above, I certainly agree with you that all States in this time of history are based on secular foundations, save few hither and thither.
That is the gown that is put on and displayed. But behind the gown there is something else that drives their politics aside from the very obvious and indisputable national interest.

Thanks for reading this far before you reply.
post #91 of 92
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by jakkorz:
<strong>

Let me state that as much as I want to agree with you that the conflict is political, I see it otherwise. Couple of examples might explain the matter:

Arabs are Muslims. The political system of the Arab States, generally speaking, is based on secular foundations. That is so the leaders would be able to bite on their thrones indefinitely. On the other hand, it is only religion that drives the Arab nations citizen. If you put the rest of the Muslim population in the equation, you will have a religious base that hates Arabs or cares less for them, but because of their faith, they have to support a none Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem. If not Islamic sovereignty, then they might give up to Christian one, but never an Israeli one.

Israel is a state founded on religion, period. I understand that there are many Israelis who do not practice Judaism. No one can argue against that. I also understand that it is secular in the sense of religious freedom and as far as election system goes. But the State of Israel its self officially celebrates Jewish holidays, and the Sabbath on Saturday. It further grants the Israeli citizenship to whoever is reasonably able to prove that he/she is Jewish, not to mention the control of marriage being put into the hands of the rabbinate. Last but not least, where would His excellency Mr. Sharon be without the Shas party and their leader his holyness Rabbi Yosef? The flag of Israel states another example also. There are many examples of course, but before you think of refuting what I stated, I kindly ask you to read the rest until I recap on what I am saying.

USA fits into that catagory so well, that the nation's citizen might flame me for not stating otherwise. In God we Trust is written on all their dollar bills. Look around at those who support the establishment of Greater Israel, they are all religious individuals and quote from the Bible if not seldom then it would be often. Latest news has it that ethnic cleansing should be practiced on the Occupied Territories and have all natives deported to settle in any of the other Arab lands. That view was stated by a individuals from both of elected houses of the USA Congress. Those same same individuals even refered to those lands as Judean and Samiria, i.e. Biblical names. Need I mention all the influential groups? If you have a chance to follow cable TV in the States, watch sunday morning shows. That should give you an idea.
You should notice that the citizens of the USA (the ones that I really cherish and appreciate so long as I live) are not into politics unless driven by some kind of religious believe, or pure opportunistic politicians who think of war as a way out of economic problems and into prosperity.
Who gets hurt at the end? Ordinary people.

To recap all the above, I certainly agree with you that all States in this time of history are based on secular foundations, save few hither and thither.
That is the gown that is put on and displayed. But behind the gown there is something else that drives their politics aside from the very obvious and indisputable national interest.

Thanks for reading this far before you reply.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I can agree with most of what you say ... though not with the conclutions you draw .. but i fail to see where does this take us or indeed how doea it realted to the topic of this thread .. help me ...
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
post #92 of 92
Thread Starter 
Giant,
From the fact you haven't bothered answering any of my points in response to your post I can only assume you are either a liar who cannot back his arguments by facts or that you are simply assuming some sort of moral and intellectual superiority over me and the rest of this forum's inhabitants which entitles you to throw rabid accusations around without the need to prove them or even answer when someone dares to argue about them.

Either way, the impression you give is of a demagogue and a slanderer.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Reply
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