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post #201 of 243
If you squeeze Nokia too tighly it drops it's CEO?


I had to say it!
post #202 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by MomentsofSanity View Post

So they all drop signal strength when engulfed in the hand, no surprise. But why keep comparing the meaningless visual display of signal loss to every other phone but only compare the rate of dropped calls to the 3GS?

If Apple wants to silence the critics or show a meaningful comparison show the raw data, not a cheap visual demo that really tells nothing.

There's a good point there I haven't thought of.

And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.
post #203 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

There's a good point there I haven't thought of.

And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.

Well, I have had experience with this in the past with AT&T. What happens is basically nothing. If you drop a lot of calls, you call AT&T and they assign a trouble ticket to your number. About a day later an AT&T engineer calls you and tells you that they are monitoring your signal and are trying to pinpoint when and where your calls get dropped and if it's because of the network, or your phone, or your Sim. Another few days go by and then another call is made to tell you that they can't pinpoint what happened and chock it up to temporary network congestion. Then they close the ticket until you call again which for some strange reason doesn't happen for another month. I have had that happen with Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and Palm Treo phones since about 98.

The manufactures of the phones blame the network and they will offer to replace your phone, but that has never solved the problem. With the way the iPhone 4 is designed, it's easier to blame the phone since you can replicate the problem almost every time since it tells you that it has no signal. Whereas the other phones will still tell you they have signal, but you can't use the phone when you dial out or if someone calls you.

That's what I see, and that's why other phone manufacturers are crying foul. Not that the phone lost the signal, but that it doesn't accurately tell you when it lost it, i.e., you're still seeing bars when you really have none.
post #204 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

And I was wondering, seeing all those other phones dropping bars, why haven't we heard complains about them so far? Some of them did/do sell well enough to have critical mass of users to be heard.

Apparently not.
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post #205 of 243
The only reason Apple is only one with a video like that is because it is the only one where the spot is easily seen. It, however, is the same with the other phones. There just isn't an X mark the spot making it easier to find. If you touch the Droid Aris with one finger underneath you can loss a couple of bars. Arguably, Apple's method is better because you know right where the weak spot is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donlphi View Post

I watched these videos and I don't see one video where I can touch a part of the phone with one finger and remove all data. iPhone 4 is the only phone with a video like that.

I love my iPhone, but it has a much worse antennae than any you have listed below.

Keep it real!
post #206 of 243
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZvCQfQxiPM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StLBluesFan View Post

I reviewed a sampling of the videos that someone linked to, none documents whether signal is actually lost, aka a call dropped or data transfer stops.

Can someone link me to a video that documents that on a phone other than the iP4?
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post #207 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Everything you've said here just boils down to ... "It's a lie because Apple's iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues."

The fact is though, that Apple has admitted all along that the iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues, and they purposely designed the antenna that way. What you are leaving out also, is the part where *because* the iPhone 4's antenna is so sensitive, it drops less calls in marginal areas than other phones.

Yes, iPhone 4 has a very sensitive antenna. That's pretty much the whole point of the thing. All you have to do is hold it normally and you will get better reception and fewer dropped calls than any other phone. If you insist on clapping it to your head like a moron with your giant hand wrapped around it and if you are in a low signal area you might find some degradation of the signal (although it most likely won't drop a call).

I understand that some people have sweaty hands, and that some people are not as dexterous as others and have to hold the phone in that unusual way and so they *might* see a *slight* increase in dropped calls, but that's the essential trade-off of the iPhone 4 design. A better antenna, that's more sensitive, but with an obvious weak spot that you have to avoid.

If you don't like it, buy some other phone. It's not a flaw, it's a design choice made on purpose.

It is still a flaw designers have chosen to go with. And it seems to be backfiring a bit more than they were expecting.
post #208 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apparently not.

Yes, apparently problem was not that obvious as with iP4.
post #209 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth View Post

If you squeeze Nokia too tighly it drops it's CEO?


I had to say it!

I have to re-quote it!
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post #210 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeasar View Post

I hold my phone on my left hand and while I hold it only my fingers are in contact with the phone, not my ENTIRE palm. And don't go telling me that Im un-natural.

Nope your're not un-natural because I to hold my 3Gs the same way "so when I do get a 4 this will not be a problem for me either
post #211 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeasar View Post

I hold my phone on my left hand and while I hold it only my fingers are in contact with the phone, not my ENTIRE palm. And don't go telling me that Im un-natural.

I'll just say you're gripping the phone too tightly...

BTW, I'm working on my own grip on my 3GS. Much more tight then correct.
post #212 of 243
people are saying that it's unfair to apple to single out other manufacturers, but i don't blame them. with he kind of flak they generate for the tiniest problem in their products, other companies that aren't at the center of attention in the industry make products that have much more severe flaws. some are bugs, some are just poor design decisions that make the experience worse than any apple antenna problem.

once you have a story of apple messing up, every 2 bit journalist wants a piece of the consumer backlash. quite frankly, the only consumer brands that your regular joe shmoe even knows anything about are apple, microsoft, and google, and the rest of the technology companies out there are a sea of sameness.

apple is merely pointing out that all phones have a problem spot. it's simple physics. if you stick a phone between your butt cheeks, you bet your ass it's going to get terrible reception.

any left or right hander can avoid the problem spot on an iphone without even thinking about it. it's sad that they even have to give away bumpers, and it's only because of the ridiculous media coverage this issue is getting.
post #213 of 243
Ok ive read the past 6 or so pages of repetitive circulative arguments.

But heres something that i want to throw out to people about this "death grip" for lefties.

Below is a picture of the iPhone4 antennas.

Note that the one on the left hand side is for..... thats right bluetooth WIFI and GPS.



Now i mention this because it seems strange that if a lefty holds the phone in their hand and faces the screen to their face it is the GPS antenna that is touching the palm and not the GSM one.

So by all logic to the arguments this means that the antenna issue should infact target RIGHTIES more.

but it doesn't.

So what does this mean?

Well basically the issue is 2 fold. First of all the reception "bars" issue made those that are on AT&T feel like they had deception when they didn't.
OK Apple can take some of the blame for this and have since released a patch so not really an ongoing issue unless you have not updated.

Lastly there is the issue of AT&T actually hiding behind the complaints aimed at Apple and all the time knowing that somewhere in their agreement there is a clause that states that Apple can not blame AT&Ts service or lack there of for reception issues.

I mention this last one because it seems that what we are finding is that networks that were almost at saturation point as it was, are hurting even more now the iPhone 4 is out and the issues that we are seeing are actually linked closer to that fact than a manufacturing one.

It will be interesting too see if the same results can be replicated here in Australia as we have 4 main GSM networks. One that is at saturation point (optus), two that have limited but strong coverage (vodafone/3) and one that has amazing coverage but is really bloody expensive (telstra).

Lets see if the results match the US results in regards to the dropped calls once tested on a variety of networks in the one location.
post #214 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddych View Post

When you hold the phone naturally with the corner resting in your palm, your palm comes into contact with the spot that you need to touch to make the iPhone 4's signal drop significantly.

So even if you can't hold the iPhone 4 with one finger, you can replicate the effect with a natural hold.

That feature doesn't work on my iPhone 4!!! I can touch that seam for long minutes at a time and the packets don't drop, the call doesn't drop, I am pissed that my iPhone doesn't function like the video suggests ALL iPhone 4s act when you do that!!!!

Apple screwed me out of that feature and I want my money back!!!!!!

OR

there was an iPhone 4 that had a reception issue. Oh wait - let's say a FEW iPhone 4s had reception issues and someone made a video out of it instead of taking the bloody thing back to the bloody store and getting it exchanged for one that didn't exhibit that property.

Do you own an iPhone 4 freddych? And does it do that? Or not? Now I could put a video on youtube that shows my iPhone 4 NOT losing connectivity by touching it with one finger - or death grip or left-handed palm rest or whatever - but who the heck would bother watch it? ANd what would it demonstrate? That my iPhone 4 doesn't show the same reaction to contact that the iPhone 4 in the video. In light of over 3 million iPhone 4s either case is statistically insignificant.
post #215 of 243
What's Apple's point? Other companies are as shit as them? This would have all blown over in a few months if they just left it with the free bumpers...
post #216 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

What's Apple's point? Other companies are as shit as them? This would have all blown over in a few months if they just left it with the free bumpers...

Let's say nobody realized tires can go flat until one day Goodyear brings out a new line of tires that's supposed to be better than any other; people start buying them and inevitably hitting nails in the road. Buyers start posting videos on youtube showing that if they stab a nail into the tire, it goes flat. Then the media makes a huge deal about these new Goodyear tires that are apparently going flat left and right, leaving furious buyers abandoned on the sides of roads all over the country. Every day is met with a new report from an "analyst" reporting how many billions it's going to cost Goodyear to recall every single one of these tires. Consumer reports is recommending not buying these new flattening tires from Goodyear, and every person on the street asks you if you've been having that go-flat problem with your new Goodyear tires.

Remember, in this analogy at this point in time no one has noticed that all tires will go flat if you hit a nail. Would you expect Goodyear to simply keep their mouths shut and patch everyone's tires for free, without ever pointing out that getting a flat when you hit a nail is not exclusive to their new tire line, or even Goodyear tires in general?
post #217 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post

It is still a flaw designers have chosen to go with. And it seems to be backfiring a bit more than they were expecting.

thing is, it's only backfiring online, not in real-world use for 99% of users.
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post #218 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

... the clamminess of the individual is unique to the individual, along with the physiology and biochemistry of the individual are always different in ways that will or will not impact the signal.

So slimy class-action contingency-fee-hunting lawyers get the biggest signal drop?

Oh, and trolls under the bridge too?
post #219 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Would you expect Goodyear to simply keep their mouths shut and patch everyone's tires for free, without ever pointing out that getting a flat when you hit a nail is not exclusive to their new tire line, or even Goodyear tires in general?

I wouldn't care what they did, as long as it didn't result in every man and his dog suddenly thinking they were bloody electrical engineers.

The IP4 has detuning issues that, whilst not unique, are not common. However there happens to be a fix... you either stop being a fat sweaty person living in a low signal area, or you get a free bumper. Problem solved.

With the bumper in place the IP4 has the same crap attenuation issues that a lot of other phones do.

They should have left it with that. This concentrated attempt to make their competitors look bad so they look better is contemptible. It makes them look weak. I don't like when people act like that and I don't like it when companies do either.

The IP4 is more than capable of selling based on its own merits.
post #220 of 243
It is not a question of the phone's merits or drawbacks. It is a question of how Apple as a company deals with it's customers. This action by Apple could have been done more gracefully and possibly a little earlier.

I think it is fair for Apple to pick on the competitors as they started to pretend that they were holier than thou with regard to attenuation.
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post #221 of 243
Thorns in wrong side, Apple. Engineering companies were rather with you in the antenna hogwash until you've got started on calling their products out. They are engineers, you know, and they're living all that out, too.

Wait, I've got an idea. Your engineering class: A, your overall marketing class: AAA+, your PR class: C. You have $45B all in cash. See where to invest?

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post #222 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post

Everything you've said here just boils down to ... "It's a lie because Apple's iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues."

The fact is though, that Apple has admitted all along that the iPhone 4 is more sensitive to these issues, and they purposely designed the antenna that way. What you are leaving out also, is the part where *because* the iPhone 4's antenna is so sensitive, it drops less calls in marginal areas than other phones.

Yes, iPhone 4 has a very sensitive antenna. That's pretty much the whole point of the thing. All you have to do is hold it normally and you will get better reception and fewer dropped calls than any other phone. If you insist on clapping it to your head like a moron with your giant hand wrapped around it and if you are in a low signal area you might find some degradation of the signal (although it most likely won't drop a call).

I understand that some people have sweaty hands, and that some people are not as dexterous as others and have to hold the phone in that unusual way and so they *might* see a *slight* increase in dropped calls, but that's the essential trade-off of the iPhone 4 design. A better antenna, that's more sensitive, but with an obvious weak spot that you have to avoid.

If you don't like it, buy some other phone. It's not a flaw, it's a design choice made on purpose.

Sorry now you are making things up Can you support the claim of less dropped calls than any other phone? If you mean iPhone 3Gs to iPhone 4 then this is reasonable and is what Apple have said. However if you are referring to other OEMs then this claim is unfounded.

I think Apple did make that design choice rather than a flaw. However, I think they screwed up by Jobs telling people to hold it differently- a silly thing to say which gave the impression that it was the consumers fault!

Also bars mean nothing, they do not relate to you ability to make calls or data. The issue of dropping calls is a function of phone Rx sensitivity and operator network coverage. AT&T (from what I read and listen to as I am in the UK) has poor coverage in some areas, which only serves to compound the problem. For those outside the US I think this will never be seen as a problem.

Kevin
post #223 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I wouldn't care what they did, as long as it didn't result in every man and his dog suddenly thinking they were bloody electrical engineers.

Including you, apparently.

Quote:
They should have left it with that. This concentrated attempt to make their competitors look bad so they look better is contemptible. It makes them look weak. I don't like when people act like that and I don't like it when companies do either..

Oh, get over your self-righteous, hypocritical bullshit. Apple's response is entirely appropriate and correct. If the other phone manufacturers don't like it, maybe they shouldn't have been astroturfing this issue so hard.
post #224 of 243
Sure, other phone experience attenuation, but Apple has the unique problem of having the actual metal surface of the antenna exposed. iPhone4 more than attenuates, the signal actually gets shorted if you bridge the gap in antennas with any part of your hand. This is a minor problem. Apple can easily fix it by coating the metal bands with a thin, non-conductive coating.

So yes, all phones have some issues, but Apple's issue is different, and they are still being disingenuous.
post #225 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

Sure, other phone experience attenuation, but Apple has the unique problem of having the actual metal surface of the antenna exposed. iPhone4 more than attenuates, the signal actually gets shorted if you bridge the gap in antennas with any part of your hand. This is a minor problem. Apple can easily fix it by coating the metal bands with a thin, non-conductive coating.

So yes, all phones have some issues, but Apple's issue is different, and they are still being disingenuous.

In actual daily use by nearly every iPhone 4 owner, having the antenna exposed has made absolutely no difference. If the antenna actually "gets shorted" by bridging the gap, every iPhone 4 owner could instantly recreate the issue at any given time in any location regardless of signal strength. That is not at all the case.
post #226 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by MomentsofSanity View Post

If a phone goes from dropping 2 calls per hundred to dropping 2.75-3 calls per hundred that's an increase of almost 50%. How's that insignificant?

if you had only 2 cents and all of a sudden you saw another penny on the sidewalk and picked it up you would be 50% richer.

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post #227 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

In actual daily use by nearly every iPhone 4 owner, having the antenna exposed has made absolutely no difference. If the antenna actually "gets shorted" by bridging the gap, every iPhone 4 owner could instantly recreate the issue at any given time in any location regardless of signal strength. That is not at all the case.

It only happens to the fatties... and let's face it... do we really care if they can't dial up for pizza delivery or have to take a walk to the pay phone? It will probably do them some good!

In any case, it's a bit of a design flaw but (as magical as their devices may be!) Apple just have regular people working for them that are bound to make the occasional mistake. Like Steve said, they aren't perfect!

The bumper seems to bring the IP4 reception back into the race with the major players though so there's no reason most people shouldn't be focusing on the IP4's virtues rather than its flaws.
post #228 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

if you had only 2 cents and all of a sudden you saw another penny on the sidewalk and picked it up you would be 50% richer.


If the failure rate of your product increases by 50% over your previous model peformance you would never consider it insignificant. If my business had a failure rate jump that high I'd be all over my QA Department.

But yes, it's the same as a penny.....
post #229 of 243
I think I've heard just about enough of "AntennaGate". Guess when we'll find out if the antenna design is truly flawed?

When next year's iPhone comes out.
post #230 of 243
A suggestion from the Nokia user forums, take note of the date.

Quote:
Re: Nokia N97 Mini - Problems with antenna ?!
Options
07-Apr-2010 11:28 PM

Are you putting your hand over the bottom end of the phone? That's where the antenna is, so if you're in a moderate to weak signal area, you can easily drop the signal to zero with your hand. I find I can force my phone to drop down from 3G to GSM completely by putting it next to my head, sometimes.

Source

This should bring an end to this nonsense, well regarding the N97 Mini anyway.
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post #231 of 243
All this grab-assing of competing phones is tiresome. Apple, please post a video showing the signal drop when the antenna gap on the iPhone 4 is just lightly touched with a pinky finger.
post #232 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

All this grab-assing of competing phones is tiresome. Apple, please post a video showing the signal drop when the antenna gap on the iPhone 4 is just lightly touched with a pinky finger.

gtf over it. if the issue is affecting your experience of the iPhone 4, return it and be done with it. if you don't own one, no-one really gives a damn.
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post #233 of 243
In my humble opinion, Apple's demonstrations are totally disingenuous.

The simple test comes down to this:

1) Hold the iPhone 4 without the bumper case in a natural way with your left hand and watch the reception quality take a major nosedive in many cases.

2) Hold a Blackberry, HTC smartphone, or Motorola Droid series cellphone in a natural way with your left hand and note that the reception quality does not drop or drops significantly less than the iPhone 4.

Apple's own demonstrations use a hand grip on competitors' cellphones that are NOT what you normally do when you hold a cellphone in your left hand. In short, Apple does really have a hardware problem and they need to fix it permanently (like for example anodizing the metal antenna band or covering it with a clear plastic covering to reduce sensitivity to the electrical charge from the human body transmitted through the skin on your hand).
post #234 of 243
http://www.businessweek.com/print/ma...9036932852.htm

Antennas: Jobs Was Right. They're Still a Challenge

As phones continue to shrink, fitting antennas in and making them work correctly often comes down to trial and error

By Amy Thomson

Whatever you think of Steve Jobs' defense of the iPhone 4 and its reception issues, the Apple (AAPL) boss was right about one thing: Antennas are a technological challenge, one that engineers have wrestled with since before Gordon Gekko barked orders into his Motorola (MOT) DynaTAC from a beach in the Hamptons. And as phones continue to shrink, fitting antennas in and making them work correctly often comes down to trial and error, says Stephen Temple, a retired engineer who helped plan Europe's GSM technology. "It would be fair to say that antenna design is a little bit of a dark art," Temple says.

The $4,000 DynaTAC weighed in at almost two pounds and was eight inches long. Today's phones often weigh less than four ounces and can be shorter than the DynaTAC's 5-inch antenna even as they pack in features such as video cameras and QWERTY keyboards. Since the late 1990s, consumer tastes have turned against external antennas, which means they must be crammed inside the handset's casing. Phones now receive different signals such as 3G, Bluetooth, and Wi-Fi, so they often have a half-dozen or more antennas. Reception can be affected by the amount of space around the antenna, the materials used elsewhere in the phone (plastic is less problematic than most metals), and whether the caller is right- or left-handed.

For most of today's basic voice and data cell signals, the right antenna length is about three inches or seven inches. FM radio and broadcast TV antennas are longer, though antennas can be bent to fit inside tiny phones. The optimal length is half the frequency the antenna is designed to receive divided by the speed of light. Any longer or shorter, and the reception can suffer. Furthermore, "the [human] body has a major effect on the antenna because at different frequencies it acts differently," says Stuart Lipoff, an electronics consultant.

The arrival of faster, fourth-generation networks will complicate design further. And as new categories of devices such as the iPad grow in popularity, it's getting harder to design antennas that are appropriate for all their potential uses. In years past, antenna engineers tested phones held against a person's head, says Jeff Shamblin, chief technology officer of Ethertronics, a San Diego antenna maker. Now, he says, "you have to test a cell phone sitting on a desk, in a user's lap, [or] being used on speakerphone while operated with two hands."

The bottom line: Antenna design has long been a problem for phonemakers, and complexity is growing as devices shrink.

With Connie Guglielmo
post #235 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

gtf over it. if the issue is affecting your experience of the iPhone 4, return it and be done with it. if you don't own one, no-one really gives a damn.

Yeah, nobody gives a damn. That's why Apple keeps posting more ridiculous videos of the competition, doesn't post one of its own, and removed Field Test Mode from iOS 4.
post #236 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

1) Hold the iPhone 4 without the bumper case in a natural way with your left hand and watch the reception quality take a major nosedive in many cases.

Most people I know with iPhone 4's cannot get reception to "nosedive". The notion that it affects 90% of iPhone 4 users is a farce that must die. I would have thought Apple's data presented at the press conference would have achieved that, but obviously not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

2) Hold a Blackberry, HTC smartphone, or Motorola Droid series cellphone in a natural way with your left hand and note that the reception quality does not drop or drops significantly less than the iPhone 4.

Unless you have data to support this, I presume you've come to this conclusion based on your false perception that most iPhone 4 owners' reception plummets when they hold their phones. Being wrong about your first point makes you wrong about this point as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMan01 View Post

Apple's own demonstrations use a hand grip on competitors' cellphones that are NOT what you normally do when you hold a cellphone in your left hand. In short, Apple does really have a hardware problem and they need to fix it permanently (like for example anodizing the metal antenna band or covering it with a clear plastic covering to reduce sensitivity to the electrical charge from the human body transmitted through the skin on your hand).

They're holding the phones like the iPhone 4 is held in all of Apple's marketing materials, which is exactly how the user-created iPhone 4 demonstation videos showed. We know this to be true because when Steve Jobs told an owner to "hold it differently", people went apeshit because all of Apple's promotional materials showed the phone being held exactly how Steve was telling users not to. It's only fair that they demonstrate all of these phones being held in the same manner as the iPhone 4 was in 99% of the user-created iPhone 4 reception demonstrations.
post #237 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Yeah, nobody gives a damn. That's why Apple keeps posting more ridiculous videos of the competition, doesn't post one of its own, and removed Field Test Mode from iOS 4.

yup. that's why handsets by the thousand are being returned - not.
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post #238 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Gilling View Post

A leader in Antenna design? Why? What they done that's leading? Or is it just that fact that nearly every company you see is a 'innovator', but yet from a lot of them innovation is just a tag line. Although Nokia can claim they made the design of the 'modern' phone, but I haven't seen anything else great from them.

How about a strudy and strong phone each and every time that works at making phone calls. The E71 had better build quality than the Iphone. I dropped it a 50 times without a case and it still shines and never breaks. I dont think i can say that about the iphone 4 without a case, so its right that apple give a free case.
P.S. I hold my N97 the way they held in the video, it doesnt do anything.
post #239 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen View Post

gtf over it. if the issue is affecting your experience of the iPhone 4, return it and be done with it. if you don't own one, no-one really gives a damn.

I dont even own an i phone. this comment is for apple showing nokia's have a similar problem.
You gtf over it and return your i phone.
post #240 of 243
I was just talking to someone on the phone with an iphone 4 and i have a n97. what a perfect situation, except the call got dropped and i have full bars and i am holding my n97 with no case.
At my last office my E71 rarely ever dropped calls where iphones dont even get service.

The iphone 4 sucks at the phone part.

New suggestion from Apple: All iphone users, wear gloves that match your iphone color when making phone calls. Maybe it'll become a fad.
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