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Christianity?

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
It is rare to find someone who is deeply well studied, well traveled and enriched in diverse cultural understanding who can with abundant and in-depth replies answer questions about Christianity that thoughtful individuals pose.

Let me introduce you to Ravi Zacharias. This man is one of the guys I like to watch from time to time. His intellect, integrity, understanding and humor are refreshing. In an age where so much is what I like to refer to as "dumbed down" this gentleman offers thoughtful and powerful answers to thoughtful and deep questions posed to him regarding matters of the Christian Faith.

Feel free to sample him in action in the following link:

http://www.rzim.org/resources/watch.aspx

He has written several books as well which I plan to obtain and read.

I challenge you to watch this gentleman.

Weigh in with your thoughts.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #2 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

It is rare to find someone who is deeply well studied, well traveled and enriched in diverse cultural understanding who can with abundant and in-depth replies answer questions about Christianity that thoughtful individuals pose.

Thanks Fellows...I appreciate it..oh wait....you're not talking about me are you

Quote:
Let me introduce you to Ravi Zacharias. This man is one of the guys I like to watch from time to time. His intellect, integrity, understanding and humor are refreshing. In an age where so much is what I like to refer to as "dumbed down" this gentleman offers thoughtful and powerful answers to thoughtful and deep questions posed to him regarding matters of the Christian Faith.

I have to say Fellows that this man appears to me to be sincere, humble and very well studied.

I watched a couple of the vids and that comes across quite clearly. At last someone who is 'real' and not glorifying his own self.

I have to take issue with one point of his though - because it is a personal bugbear of mine and also because I think he genuinely wants co-operation and understanding between religions.

In the 'Coercion in religion' video he answers a question where he was challenged on his stated view that Islam could not create a country like America - he defended that but he is actually demonstrably wrong there (he was talking from the perspective of religious freedom not financial security which I think Islamic States often have) - but this is not the case. Islam already HAS done this for 800 years in Spain.

In many ways Islamic Spain was the First America. He should know this and he should say it or else he is being dishonest.

He may be correct that Islamic States now ARE intolerant. No argument but even he admits the Qur'an says 'there should be no compulsion in religion' as he gives examples of hypocrites who disregard it.

So why judge Islam by the hypocrites? Why not admit there was a time when Islam DID create an America? I have some suspicions as to the answer to that and we can perhaps discuss them but as it is now I think he is in danger of doing what I was accused of doing (but actually didn't do) in the Porn thread; judging the whole religion and teaching by the hypocrites who fail to live up to that teaching.

Otherwise he is a very interesting guy and a welcome change from the 'wealth-centred' prosperity ministries, he seems to really engage people too.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Thanks Fellows...I appreciate it..oh wait....you're not talking about me are you

You are more than welcome...... Blush.. I knew you would find out that you are in that rare class

Quote:
I have to say Fellows that this man appears to me to be sincere, humble and very well studied.

I watched a couple of the vids and that comes across quite clearly. At last someone who is 'real' and not glorifying his own self.

I have to take issue with one point of his though - because it is a personal bugbear of mine and also because I think he genuinely wants co-operation and understanding between religions.

In the 'Coercion in religion' video he answers a question where he was challenged on his stated view that Islam could not create a country like America - he defended that but he is actually demonstrably wrong there (he was talking from the perspective of religious freedom not financial security which I think Islamic States often have) - but this is not the case. Islam already HAS done this for 800 years in Spain.

In many ways Islamic Spain was the First America. He should know this and he should say it or else he is being dishonest.

He may be correct that Islamic States now ARE intolerant. No argument but even he admits the Qur'an says 'there should be no compulsion in religion' as he gives examples of hypocrites who disregard it.

So why judge Islam by the hypocrites? Why not admit there was a time when Islam DID create an America? I have some suspicions as to the answer to that and we can perhaps discuss them but as it is now I think he is in danger of doing what I was accused of doing (but actually didn't do) in the Porn thread; judging the whole religion and teaching by the hypocrites who fail to live up to that teaching.

Otherwise he is a very interesting guy and a welcome change from the 'wealth-centred' prosperity ministries, he seems to really engage people too.

I see what you are saying here with the Spain could Islam create a country like America comment.

I too think he might be a bit off key here but I would say.. Shoot the man an email and see if you get a reply. This man has never met a question he was not happy to reply to.

His longer format videos are really a lot of fun to watch. These tid-bits he has on this page are not even his best work as I have seen it in my estimation. It is as though he sells himself short on poupose by what he offers up to view on this page of his.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #4 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I too think he might be a bit off key here but I would say.. Shoot the man an email and see if you get a reply. This man has never met a question he was not happy to reply to.

Don't think I'll mail him probably but I wish people would stick to the facts though.

No-one is disputing that Islam faces some issues and there are extremists at large but to suggest this is what Islam actually IS and has always been is untrue so I think people should tell it like it is.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #5 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Don't think I'll mail him probably but I wish people would stick to the facts though.

No-one is disputing that Islam faces some issues and there are extremists at large but to suggest this is what Islam actually IS and has always been is untrue so I think people should tell it like it is.

I agree that people should keep their facts straight.

You know what I think would be cool Seg is if YOU started a thread about Islam and went over the basics of the religion for those who may not be as familiar as you are. I suspect there are many who don't fully understand the basics of Islam including myself I might add.

With Christianity there are many stories in the Bible both old and new testament that many are familiar with be they Christian or not.

Would you be willing to outline Islamic beliefs in a thread as you see fit to accurately reflect the true nature of Islam?

I truly think this could be a very interesting proposition for us all here at appleinsider and it could inspire some deeper thinking rather than the same old fingerpointing nonsense we see far to often.

I think it would possibly foster deeper understanding. What do you think about this idea?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #6 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I agree that people should keep their facts straight.

You know what I think would be cool Seg is if YOU started a thread about Islam and went over the basics of the religion for those who may not be as familiar as you are. I suspect there are many who don't fully understand the basics of Islam including myself I might add.

With Christianity there are many stories in the Bible both old and new testament that many are familiar with be they Christian or not.

Would you be willing to outline Islamic beliefs in a thread as you see fit to accurately reflect the true nature of Islam?

I truly think this could be a very interesting proposition for us all here at appleinsider and it could inspire some deeper thinking rather than the same old fingerpointing nonsense we see far to often.

I think it would possibly foster deeper understanding. What do you think about this idea?

Fellows

Umm....it's an interesting idea. It would be good if it could foster discussion and not degenerate into a thread on religion/atheism or something.

Also I think I wouldn't want it to be just a restatement of my personal opinions - I do enough of that in other people's posts hahah (too much maybe) but I think it would be good if confined to actual facts.

I think the danger is that it would seem like I was trying to push a religious agenda but actually this is not ever my motive..

Many of the stories in the Bible are also in the Qur'an - the Nativity for example and the stories of the OT prophets in much the same way...what could be interested and which is not often ever mentioned much is some of the sayings of Muhammad.

Also there are many sayings of Jesus in the Islamic tradition which I believe may be actual recordings that are not from elsewhere.

It could be interesting but I fear it is only you and me and a handful of others who would be interested - I could be wrong but it's a gamble... I find it depressing when people look at the negative the whole time and such a thread would be perfect for that.

I know that's a hypocritical statement as I have been guilty of that myself but I have to tell you Fellows, I have been thinking a lot about your example of looking for the good in things and how you conduct yourself generally in these discussions and it kind of makes me feel I want to act a little differently. The fact you suggest this idea also shows part of this and I am trying to learn from it.

Not sure if I should start such a thread but if someone else did then I wouldn't mind contributing!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #7 of 27
So... a discussion about religion .... but saying that you need to stick to FACTS ???

Am I the ONLY person who sees a bit of a conundrum here?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #8 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I challenge you to watch this gentleman.

Weigh in with your thoughts.

Curious why you added a question mark after thread title? Thoughts?

That said, Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, like most ministries, advances evangelism in healthy scoops, if you like that sort of thing. I recall Billy Graham doing so, and now Billy Graham's son Franklin, a solid evangelist.

However, when I need coaching in my belief and faith, rather than these evangelical folks, I prefer to listen to the former Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; he went on to the next higher office and I enjoy listening to his every word.
post #9 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Umm....it's an interesting idea. It would be good if it could foster discussion and not degenerate into a thread on religion/atheism or something.

Also I think I wouldn't want it to be just a restatement of my personal opinions - I do enough of that in other people's posts hahah (too much maybe) but I think it would be good if confined to actual facts.

I think the danger is that it would seem like I was trying to push a religious agenda but actually this is not ever my motive..

Many of the stories in the Bible are also in the Qur'an - the Nativity for example and the stories of the OT prophets in much the same way...what could be interested and which is not often ever mentioned much is some of the sayings of Muhammad.

Also there are many sayings of Jesus in the Islamic tradition which I believe may be actual recordings that are not from elsewhere.

It could be interesting but I fear it is only you and me and a handful of others who would be interested - I could be wrong but it's a gamble... I find it depressing when people look at the negative the whole time and such a thread would be perfect for that.

I know that's a hypocritical statement as I have been guilty of that myself but I have to tell you Fellows, I have been thinking a lot about your example of looking for the good in things and how you conduct yourself generally in these discussions and it kind of makes me feel I want to act a little differently. The fact you suggest this idea also shows part of this and I am trying to learn from it.

Not sure if I should start such a thread but if someone else did then I wouldn't mind contributing!!

I would encourage such a thread and I think more people would get something out of such a thread than might seem the case. My guess is as good as yours but I certainly encourage this kind of a thread as to bring more understanding to this subject. You have my upfront commitment to respect within such a thread.

I have to say thanks for the kind words you share above regarding me and my wanting to look for the good. I have to tell you I have grown over the years and I am not the same person I was 9- 10 years ago, 5 years ago or even 1 year ago. I like a spirit of learning and sharing understanding.

Thanks for considering this idea Seg,

respectfully,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Curious why you added a question mark after thread title? Thoughts?

It is my mental way of thinking the thought in my head "do you have questions regarding Christianity?" Sorry if it was a bit confusing.

Quote:
That said, Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, like most ministries, advances evangelism in healthy scoops, if you like that sort of thing. I recall Billy Graham doing so, and now Billy Graham's son Franklin, a solid evangelist.

However, when I need coaching in my belief and faith, rather than these evangelical folks, I prefer to listen to the former Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; he went on to the next higher office and I enjoy listening to his every word.

Do you have more info on this or a link?

Thanks,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #11 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So... a discussion about religion .... but saying that you need to stick to FACTS ???

Am I the ONLY person who sees a bit of a conundrum here?

Nope, I'm leaving this thread alone for a reason.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #12 of 27
Fellowship, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be..._xvi/index.htm is the official web site for the former Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI.
post #13 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

So... a discussion about religion .... but saying that you need to stick to FACTS ???

Am I the ONLY person who sees a bit of a conundrum here?

Tell me, I am confused about something. You read what I posted didn't you? BYou must have because you referenced it...here are the bits you must refer to as they are the two occasions I used the word 'facts':

Quote:
Don't think I'll mail him probably but I wish people would stick to the facts though.

Quote:
Umm....it's an interesting idea. It would be good if it could foster discussion and not degenerate into a thread on religion/atheism or something.

Also I think I wouldn't want it to be just a restatement of my personal opinions - I do enough of that in other people's posts hahah (too much maybe) but I think it would be good if confined to actual facts.

In the first of these quotes I refer to a historical error that Mr Zacharias made about Islam. Not a theological error. A factual one.

So I see no contradiction there. Could you explain where you see one?

Do you believe that when dealing with religion it is not possible to have facts? For example is it a fact that the Pope believes in God?

Or does your non-belief in God mean this cannot be a fact to you?

In the second quote I was addressing exactly the situation you have created with your post... the opposition that inevitable arises when religion is mentioned in any context.

This is why I said stick to facts. Now it is a fact that Muhammad said X or that Islam in Spain allowed Y or Iman Z did A in year B..

Are these facts or are they not?

I can't quite grasp your pov.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

I would encourage such a thread and I think more people would get something out of such a thread than might seem the case. My guess is as good as yours but I certainly encourage this kind of a thread as to bring more understanding to this subject. You have my upfront commitment to respect within such a thread.

I have to say thanks for the kind words you share above regarding me and my wanting to look for the good. I have to tell you I have grown over the years and I am not the same person I was 9- 10 years ago, 5 years ago or even 1 year ago. I like a spirit of learning and sharing understanding.

Thanks for considering this idea Seg,

respectfully,

Fellows

Thanks Fellows, I might do it actually - I am trying to make some changes in my general life approach so I'd like to be sure I wouldn't fall into any bad habits as it could be a can of worms!!

I'd also like to do it in a spirit of sharing and increasing understanding but my track record on that sort of thing is not so good...

Maybe in a few days!

Edit: I've been thinking about this Fellows. Maybe if we had a series of 'Official Islam' and 'Official Christianity' or some such title, maybe even something like "Official 20 Things You Didn't Know About X" - the purpose would not be to promote any one religion or to discuss theology or refute religion or any other atheistic or religious agenda (anyone wanting to do that is welcome to start such a thread thought they do exist periodically anyway) but to point out the good and positive things that come from the religion in question, highlight things that are happening that are progressive and socially harmonious and dispel any myths.

I was thinking you could do the Christian one. Maybe in time we'd get Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, New Age and even Atheist...whatever. I know that the Christian one is more problematic because most people know - or think they know - all about it and there are probably few myths to be dispelled but I'm sure a lot of Christian do a lot of good and we don't hear about it.

I think it is worth it, maybe there will be negative posts but personally I'm a bit tired of being negative in life in general so would be good to hear some positive things.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #15 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilt View Post

Fellowship, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/be..._xvi/index.htm is the official web site for the former Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI.

Thank you for the link. I had been doing some reading last night. I will say that with The Catholic Church which I don't consider myself to be a part of I do however review Catholic material and take away a lot of good from the teachings I review. There are areas where I deviate but I do believe that "unity in the faith does not require uniformity".

Thanks again for the link I will review it.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Thanks Fellows, I might do it actually - I am trying to make some changes in my general life approach so I'd like to be sure I wouldn't fall into any bad habits as it could be a can of worms!!

I hear you, I appreciate your measured survey of yourself prior to a thread like we have discussed. I still encourage you!
Quote:
I'd also like to do it in a spirit of sharing and increasing understanding but my track record on that sort of thing is not so good...

I am on board and am not concerned with any prior track record.
Quote:
Maybe in a few days!

I think that would be great!
Quote:
Edit: I've been thinking about this Fellows. Maybe if we had a series of 'Official Islam' and 'Official Christianity' or some such title, maybe even something like "Official 20 Things You Didn't Know About X" - the purpose would not be to promote any one religion or to discuss theology or refute religion or any other atheistic or religious agenda (anyone wanting to do that is welcome to start such a thread thought they do exist periodically anyway) but to point out the good and positive things that come from the religion in question, highlight things that are happening that are progressive and socially harmonious and dispel any myths.

I was thinking you could do the Christian one. Maybe in time we'd get Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, New Age and even Atheist...whatever. I know that the Christian one is more problematic because most people know - or think they know - all about it and there are probably few myths to be dispelled but I'm sure a lot of Christian do a lot of good and we don't hear about it.

The Christian one could wait. I think this idea is one which is way past due. Our forum here is a diverse group and I think there is a desire to review such threads / posts. I challenge you to lead or co-lead this effort Seg. I can see leadership with this charter to bring forward high quality threads for the purpose of bringing greater knowledge and understanding to the subject matters which we have discussed here. With any venture of this nature we can expect some to shoot darts but in the end the greater good of the thread outweighs the negatives in my view. This I do suggest strongly. I think with time and as maturity manifests some will choose to forego the darts for thoughtful questions and meaningful participation.
Quote:
I think it is worth it, maybe there will be negative posts but personally I'm a bit tired of being negative in life in general so would be good to hear some positive things.

Let's do this.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #17 of 27
Thread Starter 
Just to be upfront and clear about a few things for any who may wonder:

This idea is for everyone.

This idea is not one where by any of us conveys a message of belief superiority (my beliefs / religion -lack of religion is better than your beliefs / religion -lack of religion. We each may have our own personal beliefs about how we see our beliefs as opposed to how we see the views and beliefs of others. This is fine but the mission and purpose of the threads proposed here is one to share in the understanding of diverse religious and or world view belief systems.

I see this as a great challenge for us to grow in maturity and understanding of others. Sometimes life is not about us. When we grasp that we can choose to understand others I would argue that we all walk away the better for it. It can renew who we are in fact.

Thanks to all,

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

Just to be upfront and clear about a few things for any who may wonder:

This idea is for everyone.

This idea is not one where by any of us conveys a message of belief superiority (my beliefs / religion -lack of religion is better than your beliefs / religion -lack of religion. We each may have our own personal beliefs about how we see our beliefs as opposed to how we see the views and beliefs of others. This is fine but the mission and purpose of the threads proposed here is one to share in the understanding of diverse religious and or world view belief systems.

I see this as a great challenge for us to grow in maturity and understanding of others. Sometimes life is not about us. When we grasp that we can choose to understand others I would argue that we all walk away the better for it. It can renew who we are in fact.

Thanks to all,

Fellows

Suggest a title then Fellows...my creative input is limited
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

The Christian one could wait. I think this idea is one which is way past due...Let's do this.

While the idea has merit it should be done with some equality without waiting and/or emphasis on any faith...
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

While the idea has merit it should be done with some equality without waiting and/or emphasis on any faith...

Well why don't you take on the Christian one then? I'll do the Islam one (or someone else can start it, I don't mind) and hopefully people with interest in other areas can start their from their own religion/belief.

We could call them "Official Islam Thread", "Official Atheism Thread" or whatever.

One thing I would say though is, for me, I would not want to participate in an 'X is wrong' discussion but rather contribute to what is good about the belief in question. Or why you believe what you do and what you gain from it. Or just things we don't know about the belief - common ground sort of thing.

Which means I won't be able to wade in to an atheist thread giving examples of any irrationality but rather point out some good things. Could be tough. And no fundie bashing either.

I don't expect others to follow the same pattern but would be nice if we could try.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #21 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well why don't you take on the Christian one then? I'll do the Islam one (or someone else can start it, I don't mind) and hopefully people with interest in other areas can start their from their own religion/belief.

We could call them "Official Islam Thread", "Official Atheism Thread" or whatever.

One thing I would say though is, for me, I would not want to participate in an 'X is wrong' discussion but rather contribute to what is good about the belief in question. Or why you believe what you do and what you gain from it. Or just things we don't know about the belief - common ground sort of thing.

Which means I won't be able to wade in to an atheist thread giving examples of any irrationality but rather point out some good things. Could be tough. And no fundie bashing either.

I don't expect others to follow the same pattern but would be nice if we could try.

I like the "Official (fill in the blank) thread" idea!

Can't wait.

Fellows

One suggestion. maybe we should let each variant go for several days at a time without flooding the main po page with a bunch of new official threads at once.

And Please!!! no mocking threads. No official Tooth fairy threads for example.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellowship View Post

And Please!!! no mocking threads. No official Tooth fairy threads for example.

Why is a belief in the Tooth Fairy any less valid than a belief in Jehovah?
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Why is a belief in the Tooth Fairy any less valid than a belief in Jehovah?

Exactly. Any frankly, some belief in older deities such as Zeus or Odin back when scientific knowledge was less available is a lot less batshit crazy than what people believe in nowadays given how much more we know about how the universe works today.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #24 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Exactly. Any frankly, some belief in older deities such as Zeus or Odin back when scientific knowledge was less available is a lot less batshit crazy than what people believe in nowadays given how much more we know about how the universe works today.

Tell you what BR and KingOfSomewhereHot,

You two start the official athiest thread then.

Are you up to it?

I can tell you up front I will not mock your thread if you were to start one. Start a thread and present it to us so that we may all participate within it as thinking people who are inspired by what you share with us.

Anybody can be childish as we know. I challenge you to champion the beliefs (world view) that you do adhear to. Share with us your knowledge.


Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #25 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Why is a belief in the Tooth Fairy any less valid than a belief in Jehovah?

Because the Tooth Fairy is an invented concept much like the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

No-one ever sincerely believed to have encountered or interacted with the Tooth Fairy and the belief stemmed from that - the belief stemmed from an invention.

Belief in Jehovah is the other way round.

This does not mean that either are real or not real - it just means the process is different.

I'll put it in a sort of graph form so you can see or debate further.
Parent invents Tooth Fairy -> Tells Child . > Child believes

Individual has unexplained/numinous experience - > Tells Others - > Others believe

These two things are entirely different processes.

Now you may want to argue that all religious founders from the first person who ever had a 'spiritual' experience through Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad, all made it up.

That they had no experience at all whatsoever but they just told a story like the Tooth Fairy (ie lied) and you;d be free to do it in these new threads - in fact is exactly the sort of argument that would fit there.

Note though that such founders did not need to actually INTERACT WITH GOD - that is not necessary for the above argument - all that is required is that they 'saw something' or sincerely believed they did. You could even argue they were sincere but suffering from a psychological delusion.

All those things make it a phenomena of a completely different order than the Tooth Fairy.

Don't let opposition to a belief blind you to logic when arguing against it...stick to the high principles.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Exactly. Any frankly, some belief in older deities such as Zeus or Odin back when scientific knowledge was less available is a lot less batshit crazy than what people believe in nowadays given how much more we know about how the universe works today.

Start the atheist the thread in this new manner then - ie not calling other beliefs batshit crazy but just outlining the good things and stuff that attracts you about YOUR position.

I realized this during the World Cup - I am Welsh and used to always cheer for England to lose. In fact I got much more pleasure from this than Wales winning (which they never do - might be connected).

I was indulging in this gloating during the WC and I suddenly had an epiphany: I saw all these people partying and happy win or lose and there was me reveling in a team losing and other's discomfort.

I know it's a trivial example but it made me think about it and other aspects of life where the same things happens - often how we are in a small unimportant thing is how one is about bigger things.

So I decided to be happy when others are happy and you know what - I feel a lot better. Now I'll just be happy if Wales win and if England win I'll try to be happy for them too (try).

It's like that with this - if your atheist stance completes you and gives you the meaning we all look for in life then why not celebrate it or just relax and enjoy that you've found 'home'?

If it doesn't do this then hold on to it for now and keep looking with an open mind.

But I don't think it's so good fir us as people to define ourselves or our positions by what we perceive to be the 'bad' things or 'crazy things' that we ourselves are above.

Just my 2c.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #27 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Start the atheist the thread in this new manner then - ie not calling other beliefs batshit crazy but just outlining the good things and stuff that attracts you about YOUR position.

I realized this during the World Cup - I am Welsh and used to always cheer for England to lose. In fact I got much more pleasure from this than Wales winning (which they never do - might be connected).

I was indulging in this gloating during the WC and I suddenly had an epiphany: I saw all these people partying and happy win or lose and there was me reveling in a team losing and other's discomfort.

I know it's a trivial example but it made me think about it and other aspects of life where the same things happens - often how we are in a small unimportant thing is how one is about bigger things.

So I decided to be happy when others are happy and you know what - I feel a lot better. Now I'll just be happy if Wales win and if England win I'll try to be happy for them too (try).

It's like that with this - if your atheist stance completes you and gives you the meaning we all look for in life then why not celebrate it or just relax and enjoy that you've found 'home'?

If it doesn't do this then hold on to it for now and keep looking with an open mind.

But I don't think it's so good fir us as people to define ourselves or our positions by what we perceive to be the 'bad' things or 'crazy things' that we ourselves are above.

Just my 2c.

Marvelous point, eloquently stated! The power behind this point is not to be underestimated.

Thanks Seg. That was a pleasure to read!

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
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