Official Islam Thread!

Some of you may have been following the discussion with Fellows and Camp David and others in the Christianity thread were we discussed posting some threads about various religions - well, welcome to the Islam one!

First a few things - not rules because there aren't any but more an outline of the spirit of the thread. Basically the idea is to post and discuss around the following:

1. Things that are surprising or not widely known about the faith
2. Things that are happening that help foster unity and progression
3. General positive stuff!!

That doesn't mean that this is a promotion of Islam or the other threads I hope people will start will be promotions of a given religion either but more that it is for discussion in a positive way.

I know I've been very negative in the past about Christianity in particular and also atheism but I don't want to do that any more which is one of the reasons I agreed to make this thread -and why I hope I'll be able to be positive in the sister-threads if there are any.

So hopefully we can all find something good and have a positive environment here - Let's all try and respect that, if anyone really wants an argument or to post the negative aspects we all know are out in the world then let's 'take it outside' and do it in a specific thread for that!! I probably won't join in though.

So..enough preamble - I was thinking of posting some elements of common ground between Islam (or more specifically the Middle East) and the West where there are many influences on each other which we don't always realize but I think that can wait till later because while compiling that list I noticed quite a few interesting articles about the growing inter-faith initiatives and moderate Islamic voices coming to the fore.

I really think that now there is a growing renaissance in this 'inter-faith' area - I don't like the term but there is not another one as yes. The Cordoba Initiative in NYC would be an example but there are many, many such things happening.

I noticed this article and video about Pakistanis in NYC voicing the real Pakistan.

These guys in the video are actually Sufis which are the third major sect of Islam along with Sunnis and Shi'i but they are inclusive and tolerant so they could be either Sunni or Shi'i or neither. Sometimes they are even Christians and their doctrinal position is more like Christianity than traditional Islam, they revere Jesus a lot more also.

I don't really want to talk too much about Sufism but those interested can find out I think. This is just to introduce the thread and get it rolling.

I hope people will participate with either questions, ideas they have, discussion of others' contributions or contributions of their own of positive developments in the world or in Islam.

I also hope and encourage other people with interest and knowledge to post their own 'official religion X' threads - we should have as many as poss; Buddhism, Judaism, Atheism - whatever...hopefully we can develop a more positive spirit than the traditional one we kind of got stuck in when discussing each other's beliefs!!

Actually the idea of the Unicorn does seem to stem from Islamic sources, you're right. In Islamic lore the creature was called Karkadann and it seems that the iconic animal of the West was drawn from these original Islamic sources.

This is exactly the sort of common ground I was thinking of posting about earlier. I will post some more shortly.

Incidentally, one of the greatest explorers ever, Ibn Batuta (the father of anthropology) felt that the rhinoceros was such a beast when he first encountered one.

I'll post some more common parallels in a bit.

I was thinking that it is very odd that Islam and the Middle East are seen as so 'removed' and opposite of the West when really much of the contemporary Western society is derived from common sources.

For example, our whole numerical system is the Arabic number system. Literally the same. It replaced the Roman numerals and introduced the number ) which the West did not have at that time.

Similarly many English words are literal Arabic or Persian words: traffic, cheque, magazine, tariff, tabby, filly, algebra, troubadour - these are all literal Arabic words.

Likewise an orange (the fruit) is taken directly from the Persian name for the fruit 'na rang' which means 'no sorrow'.

Alcohol, probably the West's iconic drink, was actually distilled for the first time by Jabir al-Hayyan al-Sufi who is regarded as the 'father of Chemistry' and he has a moon-crater named after him... his Latinized name is Geber.

Actually he indirectly gave us another English word; 'gibberish' because his writing were so difficult to understand they seemed like nonsense - thus the word Geber-ish.

The institutions of hospitals and Universities were first developed in the Islamic world - the Western academic mortar-board hat is actually a direct borrowing from this time and the first University at al-Azhar in Cairo (970 CE) - the boards are flat because the Qur'an was rested on the top on graduation of the students to symbolize that it was above the human's learning...

Many scholars are also arguing that aspects of the Western legal system are derived in part from Sharia law. Apparently even the 12 member jury may derive from an eastern source.

BBC Article

Even in Science the fields of algebra, chemistry, geology, spherical trigonometry were developed and transmitted to the West from Eastern sources.

So in a way it is puzzling that Islam and Muslims should be seen as 'other' - the West and the East have far more in common than elements of division.

I appreciate that - it's definitely a very important question and a key one.

I think there are several reasons and they probably apply across the board to all belief-systems. These are the reasons I can think of - feel free to add more:

1) Family tradition. Some Muslims (and other faiths no doubt) believe what they do because they were brought up believing it. That is to say there is such a thing in the East as the 'family religion' - sometimes these families have been of their specific faith for hundreds of years or longer.

Some people can trace their lineage to Muhammad himself (about a million people?) and so I guess that's a lot of history to carry around.

2) Cultural tradition - same as family I suppose but on a wider societal scale. Maybe an extension of the first but not necessarily.

3) Result of Individual Search or choice. I am guessing this is the one you maybe had in mind and it is the most interesting imo.

What is that makes someone attracted to a set of ideas? From my pov, a philosophy or belief is actually an answer to certain questions an individual might have.

The answer depends on the question. Someone who for example had experienced an abusive childhood full of hate might be attracted to a Church where people are very loving and caring and God is portrayed in that way.

Violent individuals who want a 'legitimate' outlet for their anger and violence might be attracted to an extremist ideology and so on.

I kind of see it in the sense that we all have a 'hole' in our lives and we try to find something that is the same shape. So the argument is not really about the thing that people believe imo but rather about the shape of the lack they have, or feel they have (maybe some people do not feel any lack even) and what caused this.

Thanks for posting Jazzguru....very interesting articles...I read the first one and skimmed the second...will read deeper after posting.

I wanted to say one thing about this "Last Prophet' issue that came up. I don't actually think it matters. God cannot be limited in any way in Islamic belief so it is not really possible to say what God would or wouldn't do. He is not 'stuck in stasis' but dynamic. If He decided to change His mind and send another Prophet He could. It is not possible to say HE could never do this as this would be to limit God.

Actually there is a hadith (traditionally a saying of Muhammad) to this exact effect though I can't remember or find it. Basically it says that at the end times a new religious book and law will be sent down and the Muslims will find it very hard to accept and will not do so.

Do you know of Sir Richard Burton the explorer? First Westerner to visit Mecca....allegedly a Muslim but disguised as one on that trip. Anyway, he also visited Brigham Young in Utah and wrote a book The City of the Saints which is fascinating reading.

Article about Burton in Utah.

I'll give the other articles a read...

I thought I'd say a bit more about the Sufis following on from the Pakistani musicians vid above. Many people don't know so much about this group because Sunnis and Shi'is are seen as the main groups in Islam but actually Sufis can be either. Historically their origins are contemporary with Muhammad but some even claim their beliefs predate Islam and are traceable to Jesus.

They place much more emphasis on music, writing and art - and some of the most famous poets and writers have been Sufis; Saadi, Omar Khayyam, Hafez, Rumi.

Rumi actually is apparently the world's best-selling poet over the last few years and I think this is probably due to his inclusive nature. This is a typical example of his poetry:


And he is writing this in the 12th century - this gives some idea of the tolerance of Islam in past times. He could say that he searched for God in idol houses (Hindu temples) and that God was not in the Ka'aba - and yet he was still able to freely say such things and still be regarded as one of the greatest Muslim poets.

Another favourite poet of mine is Rabia al-Adawiyya who is very interesting as she was a female Master (Sufis have a teacher-disciple organization which is very like Zen Buddhism - some say Zen is a derivation from Sufi sources, they are very similar in some ways) with Male disciples and lived in the 8th century.

One of her sayings/poems is:


Sufis can be any religion - here is an article about a Jewish Sufi and there is evidence that St Francis may also have held similar beliefs.

Certainly they make no distinction between religions as this Sufi & Christian shrine shows.

I like the explanation of Inayat Khan about what Sufism:


But actually I didn't want to talk about Sufism but rather Islam - sorry...I got carried away!!

I'll try and dig it out....

Burton was amazing, spoke almost 40 languages including dialects. There's some really funny bits in the City of the Saints, he had a real sense of humour and Brigham Young comes across as an amazing individual.

I'd like to post something about Islam as it originally was which is very important I think. Hopefully more people will comment!

In early Islam there was a concept called ijtihad - briefly, this was a doctrine that referred to the process of arriving at judgements through one's reason, intellect and logic.

It stemmed from the following theological basis:

God created everything.
Therefore He created humans with the ability to reason and think.
Therefore if one is sincerely searching for God through reason and logic then you will find Him.

It is irrelevant whether this reasoning is true - I am more interested in its effect which was one of tolerance.

For example: it meant that in Islamic societies the benchmark was not what someone believed but whether they were sincerely searching for God.

If they believed something odd but were sincere then ok, eventually reason would lead them to God. IF they used reason. Which they did.

Which is one of the reasons why we know of many other beliefs of the time such as Buddhism and Greek philosophy through Islamic sources.

Of course this could not be allowed to continue and when Clerics wanted to consolidate their power in Sunni Islam they outlawed it (an irrational act itself) though in Shi'ism it is still a factor.

One person who is campaigning for the restoration of ijtihad is Irshad Manji - she is very interesting. A hardcore feminist Muslim who regularly promotes tolerance and debate with atheists and who - of course - is under threat of death.

For those interested here is her Project Ijtihad


This is lightly tangential but there is a growing underground of reform in Islam and it is being led entirely by women.

You don't hear about it because the Islamic Orthodox do not want it to have the oxygen of publicity and Western male hegemony is not too fond of reporting it either but it is massive and when reform comes it will come from here.

Even now there are many, many cases of women petitioning to lead the prayers in the mosque and in some cases (Canada for example) succeeding.

Change is happening and when it comes it will be fast.

Check out her site she's interesting.

And check this video on Islamic Punk - yes, it does exist!

Wow, thanks Handson..that looks like a great series...I love Orhan Pamuk don't you?!

Good questions.

Re virgins I suppose it depends on the examples of this virgin-interest you are focussing on.

The most common reference I suppose people latch on to is the '72 virgins' but this number is nowhere mentioned in the Qur'an and the term 'virgin' is even disputed.

The actual word that is used and often translated as virgin is hur but I do not think this is universally accepted.... 'dark eyed maiden' is another translation but you get the idea.

But basically it is true that the Islamic conception of paradise does involve a lot of sensual activity such as sex and wine-drinking. This is because in Islam these things are not sins or wrong. They may be forbidden but that I think is more like the idea of 'going on a diet' (ie in this life - it is kind of an extended Ramadan) - after the diet and you have lost 10 kilos you can have your chocolate cake.

As to virgins themselves I believe there are three factors at work:

1) The Qur'an uses them as a symbol of purity in the life to come. This draws on the cultural framework of the Middle East which has always had this virgin-fixation, it is exactly the same in the Bible btw as it springs from the same area.

2) The Qur'an accepts and states the virgin-birth of Jesus and Mary is a revered figure therein. I believe some respect comes from this.

3) As you observe, some men - and this is a world-wide phenomena - are obsessed with virgins so as to avoid comparisons as to their lame skills in the art of love and also because of jealousy issues. Personally I prefer vastly experienced and older women myself but whatever...this is a universal phenomena btw and applies equally throughout the West and East.

Re face coverings; the Qur'an does not, as you seem to think, forbid this. Let's look at terms and the facts.

ḥijāb: refers to a head covering. Can also mean style of dress. Word means 'cover' or 'curtain'

niqāb:refers to a face-veil - this word means 'mask'. Some people use burqa for this.

So what does the Qur'an say? Actually it uses the word specifically as a curtain - in relation to this matter - and refers specifically and only to the curtain that was used to cover the door to the rooms of Muhammad's wives and through which visitors would speak to them.


Wiki

So the covering I think is a misunderstanding - or shall we say it is a LITERAL understanding (our friends the literalists again!) and is misapplied. Or perhaps re-appiled to oppress women. But it is not Qur'anic.

In fact no-where in the Qur'an is this mentioned except in reference to Muhammad's wives and likewise the same thing applies to male/female segregation.

In a parellel stream, the face-mask type of veiling is a pre-Islamic custom that was adopted from Syrian and Persian cultures because of the tribal traditions of it. It is not Islamic in any form. Actual head-scarves are a Christian tradition btw and were adopted from there and fed into the misunderstandings above

Btw, the recent resurgence in these face-veils (as opposed to head-scarves) is exclusively a Salafist or Wahabi phenomena. You will not see them in any country (apart from a tribal area of Iran) where they do not signify this influence.

This also brings up a free-speech issue too which is interesting. As you know they are now banned in France and Belgium and Spain is considering a ban too. These bans are always referenced to some form of 'freedom' - presumably the freedom of the woman? Doesn't make much sense.

Be a good debate - how can a free society maintain it's claim to being one if it enforces what you can or cannot wear in the street?

Personally I do not agree with either niqabs or hijabs but that does not mean I don't think people have a right to wear them if they choose.

Umm.....ok.....difficult to see this as anything other than a quasi-racist remark. Not going to comment on it.

But in general re cleanliness: I think probably washing 5 times a day as a rule might rule this out .

Actually Islamic societies had in-house plumbing and a network of thousands of bath-houses while the rest of Europe was suffering from the plague because they didn't.


Personal observation? You've been laughed at in this way?

I think you view Islam through a Christian moral feature too much. Sex is fun in Islam and not dirty at all....you can have 4 wives as you know and they can be as experienced or not as you like.

But again...this is a borderline dodgy comment of yours and doesn't need too much consideration.


Wahabi and Salafi. You have not been listening. Or reading.

I will accept they are 'Islamic Societies when you can demonstrate how a 200 year old doctrine can constitute Islam when Islam is 1500 years old and says the opposite.

It's like saying David Koresh is more Christian than the Pope. Actually...maybe he was ...but I digress.


It does not come from Sharia law.... again...if people answer you in depth then you should have the respect to read it and rebuff what they say if you choose but not carry on regardless ignoring it.


Under which statutes is it a crime?


Ok...think we're done here.......

Anyone with a more rational take on this?

The problem with this view there is that there is essentially no dogma in Islam. Ie, the believer is free to believe - more or less - what he chooses.

This is not the case with Christianity. If one decides to worship the devil for example then one is no longer a Christian. However, Islam could accommodate such a thing - see the Yezidis for example.

So we are not comparing like with like. So let's just talk about Islam here.

The reason for this is because every Muslim can define the religion for himself - though most people don't....but they COULD. Of course there will be highly conservative reactionary elements and they will seek to exert power - this is what humans do. One can see it everywhere though perhaps atheists can only see it in religion.

Once this power is grabbed many people will follow these 'leaders' of course.. Again, a human proclivity, not a particularly religious one..... happens in politics and fashion all the time.

So I don't think anyone has 'hijacked' the religion as such - I don't believe this is possible for the reason I gave: everyone can define their own.

It's like democracy more than anything else - if you want to believe something you are free to do it. You can believe in the KKK or George Bush. Or Obama or the Green Party. It's ALL democracy even though the constituent parts may conflict.

I think OBL is wrong. I think the Wahabis are psychopathic sickos (though unlike you, I do not put this down to religion but rather perhaps lack of it...certainly a lack of spirituality) but they have not 'hijacked' - they are interpreting their own way.

I disagree with them and their interpretation is less than 250 years old and MUhammad would have disagreed but they are entitled to it.

That's why Islam is not merely a religion but also an apparatus of State in a way many other religions are not.

Exactly....religion is a remedy for a cancer.

Perhaps it only cures 1 - 5%. Maybe less. Who knows?

What I do know is that it is insane to point to the doctor as the actual cause because the disease is incurable. Who knows...tomorrow it may not be.

They can't be representative historically as they are roughly 200 years old as a doctrine and the only reason they have prominence is Saudi oil money. If it were not for the coincidence of the discovery of oil (and the British promoting them as a buffer previously) then they would be merely another desert sect no-one had heard of like the Yezidis.

Also their doctrines are the opposite of what Islam has been traditionally been for 1500 years.

If they last for the next 2000 years say and for that time are beliefs of the vast majority of Muslims then they WILL be representative and Muhammad and the original community will be the 'unrepresentative' grouping.

It is not unusual or unexpected I think. Muhammad even specifically predicted it would happen.


I can't say that though because being a Muslim requires one thing and one thing only. To proclaim one believes the shahada.

Ie to make the following statement:

There is no God.

Except God.

Muhammad was a Prophet of God.

If you believe that you are a Muslim - all other stuff like how to pray, how many times, women, even drinking - it all is doctrinal wrangling.

You could even be an atheist and be a Muslim if one accepted this - there are some but is rare for reasons of oppression from extremists -as the word 'Allah' that appears twice in the statement does not represent a proper name like Jehovah but a concept and has even been translated as 'truth' or 'reality'.

So it would be 'there is no reality except the one reality'. Depends how you read it.

So, no it does not reflect poorly on Islam that it allows it any more than the fact anyone can espouse their views freely in the US reflects badly on the US.

In both cases it is a good and advanced thing.

To get back on track with something related to BR's posts above and also an indication of tolerance and pluralism...

One of my favourite philosophers, Islamic, spiritual or secular, is Ibn Arabi - a Spanish Muslim who lived from 1165 1240 Common Era.

He was a renowned thinker and wrote over 800 works - many still to be translated - of philosophy, spirituality and poetry.

Here is one of his poems:


The thing is that he faced nor issues or censures for saying this - very few medieval Muslims did though to say such a thing today in Saudi for example, may well be unwise.

Another one, about God:


And again...


Interesting aspect here: the symbolism of Persian poetry often revolves around topics one might not expect.

In Omar Khayyam for example, Wine is often used as a stand-in for spiritual experiences. Which might seem odd or even blasphemous but there it is.

Also a stand-in for God is often 'the Beloved' or a lover, usually a beautiful male. In fact there is a strong homo-erotic element in much of the symbolism..... something which traditionally has not been viewed as 'wrong' or blasphemous.

That was one of the points of these threads FineTunes - this and the Christian one - there are very many really positive things happening out there....far more than ever before.

We just don't get to hear about them. I don't think there's any agenda to prevent this as such - it's more that 'good news' is not News.

But it's out there and it's happening and if we can avoid focussing on the bad things and celebrate the good positive things then it will accelerate the process!!