or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Official Islam Thread!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official Islam Thread! - Page 2

post #41 of 119
Quote:
"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen." ("Where they burn books, they will ultimately also burn people.")

Heinrich Heine

I find totally abhorrent the call to burn the Qur'an on September 11th which reminiscent of the book burnings by the Nazi's prior to and during WWII. Terry Jones thinking is much like those aforementioned. See an interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbYP5...eature=related

[sarcasm]Maybe if we're lucky, the fire will spread to his church and it will burn to the ground---insurance will not cover it since he is violating city or county ordinance against burning, also requires a permit. [/sarcasm]

Reaction outside the US:

Pakistan Media Watch:

Quote:
...the Nawa-i-Waqt newspaper about a Christian church in Florida, USA that has organized a rally to burn copies of the Holy Quran. This article makes the claim that Western countries have resorted to presumptuous attacks, and reports that some Ulema have condemned the West and the United Nations for their silence.

But the truth is, there has not been a silence on this matter. It has been widely condemned by Christian religious groups in the US and even the the US government and the UN.

http://pakistanmediawatch.com/2010/0...s-and-fiction/

Indonesian Muslims Protest Plans to Burn Koran on September 11

Quote:
Thousands of mostly Muslim protesters rallied around Indonesia Saturday in opposition to an American church's plan to burn copies of the Koran on September 11.
During the weekend rallies in Indonesia, cities protested an event planned by a small Florida church to mark the ninth anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks in the United States.

The chairman of the Islamic group Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia that planned the protests, Rokhmat Labib, says the plan to burn the Islamic holy book is a provocation.

He says if the event happens Muslims will certainly fight back, and he cannot predict what form the retaliation will take.

Relations between Christians and Muslims are generally peaceful in secular Indonesia.* But in recent months hardline groups have staged attacks against churches, stirring concerns of escalating conflict that would damage relations between Christians and Muslims in the world's most populous Muslim nation.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...102250384.html

Quote:
Seven Questions for the Pastor Who Wants to Burn Copies of the Koran on 9/11
By Rev. John Rankin
Published September 03, 2010

| FoxNews.com

1. How can his proposed action be other than one of reactive fear, not one of proactive confidence? It is foreign to the Gospel.
2. Is not the burning of the Koran seen by Muslim peoples as bad news, and thus a hindrance to Muslims grasping the Good News in the lives of Christians?
3. Is not the burning of the Koran an act of accusation and condemnation? The name of Satan in the Hebrew (hasatan) means the accuser or the slanderer.
4. Does not the burning of the Koran thus burn Muslims in their very souls?
5. Does not the burning of the Koran by professing Christians thus slander the name of Jesus Christ?
6. What happens if people are killed, injured or persecuted as a result, if properties are burned or damaged, due to an inflamed Muslim world as images of a burning Koran flood the Internet? Who will be ultimately responsible?
7.Jesus, in the face of his enemies during Passover Week, embraced their toughest questions in public assembly. Is not the burning of the Koran the opposite of such confidence in communication?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/...burning-koran/

About extremism:

Quote:
What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.

Robert Francis Kennedy
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #42 of 119
Spectacularly offensive election advertisement from Sweden.

http://politiken.tv/nyheder/udland/1...elle-valgfilm/

You don't need to speak Swedish to be offended by this.
post #43 of 119
Thread Starter 
I think the perfect reaction to the Qur'an burning would be a 'Book Un-burning' held in a prominent location.

There could be copies of the Qur'an alongside the Bible and alongside Dawkins or anything else anyone likes and the message would be:

"Books are our heritage and the means we have always passed on knowledge - regardless of the content of the books we stand against anyone who wants to prevent the transmission of opinion by burning books - if you want to oppose the Qur'an then WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT INSTEAD."

I also think that any Muslim who is feeling like taking any violent action in relation to this event if it happens would do better to stand up and say the following:

"This act does not seem to be in accordance with the spirit of Christ as we know it from the Bible - as we respect Jesus and the Bible we then will follow his instructions and turn the other cheek...".
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #44 of 119
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has no plans to meet Jones: (no should he, you wouldn't want to give Jones any creditability--the guy is a hate monger).

Quote:
Looks like Terry Jones, the Florida pastor who said he wouldn't burn Qurans on Saturday so long as he got a meeting with the Muslim cleric who wants to build an Islamic center near Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan, may not have his Saturday meeting after all.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...et-terry-jones

Jones issues demands to meet Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf:

Quote:
Jones and another evangelical minister came out and gave an ultimatum to Feisal Abdul Rauf, asking for a phone call by 3:20 pm. The two ministers wouldn't answer the question "or else what?"

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...y-imam-call-me

"Fla. Pastor: 'Not Today, Not Ever' Burn A Quran"

Quote:
A Florida pastor says his church will "not today, not ever" burn a Quran, even if a mosque is built near ground zero.

http://www.scpr.org/news/2010/09/11/...-burn-a-quran/




One has to question of how this became such an issue. This is a pastor of a congregation of some 50 members. If there was no press coverage, would this have been an issue of such consequence?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11266746
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #45 of 119
Thread Starter 
A note about Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf for those who seem to claim he is somehow connected to al-Qaeda or else an 'Islamist' - he is in fact a Sufi and the leader of a Sufi mosque higher up in Manhattan.

Sufism is a liberal and inclusive aspect of Islam - it is not actually a sect like Sunnism or Shi'ism but, because of its inclusive nature, encompasses both.

So really it is not possible for Sufism to be linked to Islamism and it never is - although it is widely spread throughout the Islamic world.

About Dervishes (Sufis) in Sudan:

Quote:
While Sudan's Islamist government foments war there and disdainfully drags its heels over the implementation of a peace plan, the dervishes follow a mystical Sufi Muslim tradition that seeks harmony and "oneness" with the universe.

"While the Islamists see only one right path, the Sufis see a house on the top of a hill, and understand that there are many different paths to reach the house," says my host, Al-haj Warrag, a liberal Sudanese journalist whose white djellabah sweeps behind him as we cross the dusty graveyard, approaching the mosque. "There is nothing fanatical about them."

"Nobody here will ask you your religion, or where you come from," he adds. "They just accept you."

Sufism has deep roots in Sudanese culture, and its influence is strikingly at odds with the oppressive Islamist political ideology that has long fueled conflict here. In the early 1990s, Sudan counted itself among the most rigid Islamist governments in the world: Riot police tear-gassed overly festive wedding parties, and the regime's determination to impose its harsh version of sharia law on the more Christian South helped to drag out the war. Its chief ideologue, Hassan al-Turabi, notoriously helped to radicalize Osama bin Laden during his years living in Khartoum.
Even al-Turabi himself eventually fell afoul of the authorities, finding himself imprisoned by a regime that stamped out political opponents and critical voices.

But the Islamists have not dared to interfere with Sufism. Apolitical and non-confrontational by its very nature, it offers a form of resistance that is harder to break. "Sufism is part and parcel of life in Sudan," says Gasim Badri, who heads a liberal women's university in Omdurman. "Even now, after 18 years in power, they have been unable to change the Sudanese people."

Islam of Many Paths

Actually many years ago it was suggested in the days of the 'War on Terror' that the US support Sufis as an alternative to the Islamists...but it didn't seem to happen.

Quote:
A 2007 report by the Rand Corp., a U.S. think tank, advised Western governments to "harness" Sufism, saying its adherents were "natural allies of the West." Along similar lines, the Algerian government announced in July that it would promote the nation's Sufi heritage on radio and television in a bid to check the powerful influence of Salafism, a more extreme strain of Islam that is followed by al-Qaeda-backed militants waging a war against the country's autocratic state.

Link

The problem is though that some people - Pastor Jones for example and even some posters on here - seem unable to make a distinction between any form of Islam and extremism let alone make alliances with one side to help them defeat extremism.

Oddly, these are often the same people who shout that Muslims 'never condemn or work for reform'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #46 of 119
I just heard this on KPCC in LA and thought that I'd share it. Be patient, audio starts late about 15-20 seconds:

http://www.scpr.org/programs/offramp...ures-converge/
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #47 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I think the perfect reaction to the Qur'an burning would be a 'Book Un-burning' held in a prominent location.

There could be copies of the Qur'an alongside the Bible and alongside Dawkins or anything else anyone likes and the message would be:

"Books are our heritage and the means we have always passed on knowledge - regardless of the content of the books we stand against anyone who wants to prevent the transmission of opinion by burning books - if you want to oppose the Qur'an then WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT INSTEAD."

I also think that any Muslim who is feeling like taking any violent action in relation to this event if it happens would do better to stand up and say the following:

"This act does not seem to be in accordance with the spirit of Christ as we know it from the Bible - as we respect Jesus and the Bible we then will follow his instructions and turn the other cheek...".

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The problem is though that some people - Pastor Jones for example and even some posters on here - seem unable to make a distinction between any form of Islam and extremism let alone make alliances with one side to help them defeat extremism.
Oddly, these are often the same people who shout that Muslims 'never condemn or work for reform'.

Regarding pastor? jones (disrespect intended) intent to burn the Qur'an, I found the following quote amoungst the hatred against towards the followers of the Qur'an inspiring:

hobo62
Quote:
"He's not burning the Quran. It just paper and ink between cardboard, there is nothing holy about it. The Quaran, a religion steeped in hundreds of years of history, and like Christianity with both good and bad moments, cannot be destroyed by one little narrow minded rabble rouser and a bonfire.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #48 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
"He's not burning the Quran. It just paper and ink between cardboard, there is nothing holy about it. The Quaran, a religion steeped in hundreds of years of history, and like Christianity with both good and bad moments, cannot be destroyed by one little narrow minded rabble rouser and a bonfire.

This is a very Islamic view actually.

Qur'ans - and particularly Qur'ans in translation - are held to be copies of the one archetypal book which exists in heaven.

Hence the view of the rational Muslim would be that as the Qur'an is eternal it cannot be destroyed (stated in the Qur'an itself) and that the real Qur'an is in heaven.

Some Muslims believe there are even verses inserted - ie by Satan in the so-called Satanic Verses which do not exist in the heavenly version.

One Sufi in a poem said "The Qur'an is the eyebrow of my mistress" - when asked how it could be he replied "how can it be marks on paper made with burnt wood?"

Another interesting thing I found:

Copy of Quran only book saved from Unions 1865 burning of UA

Quote:
A copy of the Quran dating from 1853, its spine missing, its pages browning and its front cover almost detached, sits today in a library at the University of Alabama.

While Islams holy book now appears safe from a Florida pastors plan for a bonfire, the Quran at UA had its own dramatic rescue from the flames. It was the only book saved from burning of the university library at the hands of Union troops in 1865.

Legend has it that before Union troops set the building on fire, either Johnston, one of his aides, Deloffre or someone else went into the Rotunda to save one book a copy of The Koran: Commonly Called The Alcoran Of Mohammed.

The book was an English translation of the Quran and had been published in Philadelphia in 1853. Soon after it was removed from the library, the building, along with much of the rest of campus, was engulfed in flames.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #49 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

hobo62

Quote:
"He's not burning the Quran. It just paper and ink between cardboard, there is nothing holy about it. The Quaran, a religion steeped in hundreds of years of history, and like Christianity with both good and bad moments, cannot be destroyed by one little narrow minded rabble rouser and a bonfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This is a very Islamic view actually.

Qur'ans - and particularly Qur'ans in translation - are held to be copies of the one archetypal book which exists in heaven.

Hence the view of the rational Muslim would be that as the Qur'an is eternal it cannot be destroyed (stated in the Qur'an itself) and that the real Qur'an is in heaven.

However, I still find the act of book burning abhorrent. A lot of human history, knowledge and thought have been lost because of book burnings. Through out human history libraries have been torched in an attempt to erase cultures. Just think of how much we would know if more of the Mayan Codexes had survived the Spanish Conquistador and missionaries burnings.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #50 of 119
Quote:
The rise in anti-Islam rhetoric in the United States is making many of the country's young Muslims feel isolated.

And whilst the furore over the building of a Muslim community centre and mosque close to Ground Zero has calmed a little, the gap between young Muslims and mainstream American society is wider than it's ever been.

Claire Bolderson reports from Virginia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11399306

Quote:
Seventeen-year-old Jasmin Ullah condemns those who turn to radical solutions but says she understands why some Muslims in America are angry.

With incidents of potentially violent Islamic radicalism rising sharply in the US in the last two years, the BBC's Claire Bolderson looks at the pressures on young American Muslims, and at what is being done to stop them becoming alienated from the mainstream.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11383685

It sadden me as an American that our country continues to harbor hatred for the Muslim community in our Nation.

Quote:
"Hatred is increased by being reciprocated, and can on the other hand be destroyed by love. Hatred which is completely vanquished by love, passes into love; and love is thereupon greater, than if hatred had not preceded it. "

Benedictus de Spinoza

We need to move on from 9/11 and realize that those who perpetrated the tragedy were only a minority extremist group not representative of the whole.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #51 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post


We need to move on from 9/11 and realize that those who perpetrated the tragedy were only a minority extremist group not representative of the whole.

But can the islamic world say the same about the western world's military and economic actions in the islamic world given that the western world's governments were elected democratically to represent its people?
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
I disagree, and could prove you're wrong; care to offer any proof that you're not wrong?
Reply
post #52 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

But can the islamic world say the same about the western world's military and economic actions in the islamic world given that the western world's governments were elected democratically to represent its people?

There is no Democracy. That's for sheep who buy the snake oil. And for wingers who either run the show or enjoy the show.

In relation to this topic (well an aside really) some scumbags did apparently hold a Qur'an burning.

Grauniad

Luckily morons like these are brain-dead so they filmed themselves doing it - doh - and now they are under arrest.

Good to see the UK Police doing something useful for a change.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #53 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

But can the islamic world say the same about the western world's military and economic actions in the islamic world given that the western world's governments were elected democratically to represent its people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post


Quote:
"Hatred is increased by being reciprocated, and can on the other hand be destroyed by love. Hatred which is completely vanquished by love, passes into love; and love is thereupon greater, than if hatred had not preceded it. "

Benedictus de Spinoza

We need to move on from 9/11 and realize that those who perpetrated the tragedy were only a minority extremist group not representative of the whole.

That would be up to them, but that is no reason why we can't move on. I don't mean to imply that we should forget the event of 9/11, however if we keep dwelling on it we will find ourselves consumed in the hatred that is now taking place. Let's end the doubt and hatred that pops up with threats of burning the Qur'an or preventing a Mosque being built NEAR Ground Zero or elsewhere in America.

The US moved on from Pearl Harbor rebuilt Japan and moved on from Viet Nam and does business with Viet Nam---however, in this case Muslims were never our enemy.

If I may Quote:

Quote:
The Prophet Muhammad (s) said: It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing.
Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011.

http://makkah.wordpress.com/positive-quotes/
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #54 of 119






By CRISTINA SILVA, Associated Press Writer 2 hrs 47 mins ago

Quote:
LAS VEGAS U.S. Senate candidate Sharron Angle told a crowd of supporters that the country needs to address a "militant terrorist situation" that has allowed Islamic religious law to take hold in some American cities.

Her comments came at a rally of tea party supporters in the Nevada resort town of Mesquite last week after the candidate was asked about Muslims angling to take over the country, and marked the latest of several controversial remarks by the Nevada Republican.

In a recording of the rally provided to The Associated Press by the Mesquite Local News, a man is heard asking Angle : "I keep hearing about Muslims wanting to take over the United States ... on a TV program just last night, I saw that they are taking over a city in Michigan and the residents of the city, they want them out. They want them out. So, I want to hear your thoughts about that."

Angle responds that "we're talking about a militant terrorist situation, which I believe it isn't a widespread thing, but it is enough that we need to address, and we have been addressing it."

Quote:
"My thoughts are these, first of all, Dearborn, Michigan, and Frankford, Texas are on American soil, and under constitutional law. Not Sharia law. And I don't know how that happened in the United States," she said. "It seems to me there is something fundamentally wrong with allowing a foreign system of law to even take hold in any municipality or government situation in our United States."

Dearborn, Mich., has a thriving Muslim community. It was not immediately clear why Angle singled out Frankford, Texas, a former town that was annexed into Dallas around 1975.

Responding to the same question, she also drew comparisons between the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the Nazi Holocaust. She said the property owners behind the proposed Islamic community center near ground zero should move it in deference to the people who died there.

Quote:
"There was, in Auschwitz, I think it was Auschwitz, it was at least a prisoner of war camp, where the Catholic Church owned some property and they were going to build a church there. They had every right to do it but they stepped aside and said, no, we are going to allow the Jewish people to make a monument because they lost lives," she said. "They had a responsibility to be sensitive to what had happened there and it is exactly the same thing as 9/11. Ground zero, we have a responsibility to be sensitive to the loss of a nation, to the loss of families, to the loss of life that happened there."

Angle seemed to be referring to a Roman Catholic convent at the Auschwitz death camp that Pope John Paul II ordered moved in 1993 in response to Jewish protests.

Others, including the Anti-Defamation League, the nation's leading Jewish civil rights group, have evoked the relocated convent while voicing opposition to the mosque. But the ADL also has stressed that 9/11 and the Holocaust are separate, incomparable events.

Angle's campaign did not answer questions about her statements.

"I'm pretty sure that she did make it clear that there had been incidents in the news, but there is nothing widespread, and that we have freedom of religion in this country," said spokesman Jarrod Agen in an e-mail.

Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington-based advocacy group, called Angle's statements "bizarre."

Quote:
"This seems to be an example of incoherent bigotry. It is pretty clear that she has something against Islam and Muslims but she is so incoherent you don't know what she stands for," Hooper said. "The proper response would have been, 'American Muslims are citizens like anyone else. They are free to practice their faith,' not seeming to agree that Muslims are somehow seeking to take over."

Dearborn Mayor Jack O'Reilly called Angle's comments "shameful." He said tea party groups inaccurately spread the word that his Detroit suburb was ruled by Islamic law after members of an anti-Islam group were arrested at an Arab cultural festival in June because a Christian volunteer complained of harassment.

Quote:
"She took it as face value and maligned the city of Dearborn and I consider that totally irresponsible," he said. "If she wants to come here, I will take her on a tour. I will show her we follow the Constitution just as well as anyone else."

Angle, a Southern Baptist, has called herself a faith-based politician. Among her positions, she opposes abortion in all circumstances, including rape and incest and doesn't believe the Constitution requires the separation of church and state.

Angle is in a dead-heat race against Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, who has also said the community center, which would include a mosque, should be built elsewhere. A recent poll showed Reid and Angle tied in the high-profile campaign.

Reid's campaign said Angle's comments advances its ongoing campaign to portray her as outside mainstream America.

Quote:
"The fact that Sharron Angle believes American cities have been taken over by militant terrorist organizations that are ruling our citizens under Sharia law shows a terrifying lack of connection with reality and a willingness to subscribe to conspiracy theories that demonstrates she's far too extreme and dangerous to represent Nevada in the U.S. Senate," spokesman Kelly Steele said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101007/...a_senate_angle

Sometimes it just hurts being an American.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #55 of 119
The full Islamic face-veil is a part of the British way of life and should be celebrated along with religious symbols such as the crucifix, according to a report published today.
By Tim Ross, Religious Affairs Editor
Published: 8:30AM BST 16 Oct 2010


Politicians in France and Belgium have voted in favour of banning the full veil

Quote:
Opponents of the veil claim it oppresses women and presents a barrier between those who wear traditional dress and the rest of society.

But in a new report from think-tank Civitas, Alveena Malik, a former faith adviser to the last Labour government, said the test of whether religious symbols are appropriate should be based on whether they are practical.


Politicians in France and Belgium have voted in favour of banning the full veil, or niqab, and other European countries are thought to be considering similar action.

In a new report, Women, Islam and Western Liberalism,
Quote:
Mrs Malik said: We in Britain need to take a different direction from others in Europe and to accept the veil as part of a modern British way of life.

She continued: The wearing of religious symbols, including the full veil, should be a fundamental human right of an individual in both the public and private sphere.

The real test for religious symbols in the public sphere should always be: Does the wearing of a symbol (such as the kirpan, turban, yarmulke, crucifix and the veil) hinder a citizens ability to perform their public civic duties?

Britain is in a "unique" position to embrace such a public display of faith because of the role the church plays in the affairs of the state and its "multicultural diversity".

Mrs Malik was appointed by last government to a panel of faith advisers for the Department for Communities. She has overseen British Council guidance on intercultural dialogue.

I have conflicting thoughts about the wearing of the burqa or niqab. I'm not a Muslim, but I understand that the wearing of the burqa is not universal amongst the different Islamic cultures. To some, it is a sign of oppression of women. They cite the Taliban in Afghanistan. In some cultures it is acceptable. An article of interest on the subject:

veiled values @
http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/gp_burqa.html

America Alone, The End of the World as We Know It, Mark Steyn @
http://books.google.com/books?id=thP...page&q&f=false
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #56 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

I have conflicting thoughts about the wearing of the burqa or niqab. I'm not a Muslim, but I understand that the wearing of the burqa is not universal amongst the different Islamic cultures. To some, it is a sign of oppression of women. They cite the Taliban in Afghanistan. In some cultures it is acceptable]

I can understand that - it is a conflicting issue.

My take is that it is not actually Islamic or necessary and is almost always - imo - a sign of Islamism or fundamentalism.

When I have encountered fundies of this sort - the men, because the women will not speak to me - they really don't ever seem to know much about Islam and are always, imo, extreme to one degree or another.

Having said that I would support the wearing of the veil on other grounds:

1) Because the people who want to ban it are rampant racist quasi (in some cases actual) Nazis or, shall we say instead, fascists.

We should oppose this sort of thing. We all know what happens when the extreme-right gain political control. Particularly in Europe.

2) Because it is no business of Governments to tell people what they can and can't do in terms of dress. Or belief.

Oth, some liberals in the UK - Hampstead luvvies in particular (a less liberal bunch you could never hope to meet in the long run - they're merely to rich to be Socialists and too guilty to be right-wing which is their natural domain. God, I hate the English Upper-Middle Class) - seem to want to be 'politically correct' In the true sense - ie not the sense the knee-jerk wingers might use it.

I don't believe the burqa is actually part of the British way of life - certainly not the English anyway - why say it is? It's a nonsensical statement.

But the fact is it doesn't matter....that does not really come into it. It's not about that...it's about tolerance and freedom.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #57 of 119
By Aziz H. Poonawalla

Quote:
I'm a regular listener of NPR. You might call me an NPR junkie, in fact. One of the few complaints I have ever regularly had about the network was the presence of Juan Williams. By now most readers have a pretty good sense of where I fall on the political spectrum!

However, with the news that Juan Williams was fired from NPR, I find myself more troubled than relieved. What triggered Williams' firing were his comments on Bill O'Reilly's show that he had a visceral fear of Muslims dressed in "Muslim garb" on his airplane flights. This was refreshingly honest, in the context of trying to explain to O'Reilly how making broad brush stereotypes can lead to further injustices. Admitting to fear - bigoted fear - is admirable. Explaining why that fear is bigoted is then required, however.

Unfortunately, Williams failed that last responsibility, insisting that his fear is not bigoted. Let us call a spade a spade. Juan Williams, like all of us, suffers the same bigotry that runs deep in American society, which today centers on Muslims but in the past has targeted Jews, Catholics, and pretty much everyone else. For Muslims, that historical, reactive bigotry is amplified by the tragedy of 9-11, which makes it our responsibility to be patient, to work harder, to show ourselves by our deeds to be different from the other with whom we still are at war.

So, while I do not excuse Williams for his bigotry, I do understand what Williams was trying to say, and I don't think that his error was offensive or even in violation of his professional ethics as a journalist. But this is not why I am troubled by the firing.

My main concern is that NPR had plenty of cause to fire Williams, well before he appeared on O'Reilly. Williams has long leveraged his position at NPR as a sort of cachet to market himself on the pundit circuit, and in so doing has tarnished NPR's own reputation, especially among the liberals like me who make up the core audience. And NPR's leadership has confirmed that this wasn't a "one strike and you're out" situation but rather the last straw.

But these comments, not previous flubs like his comment about Michele Obama, were that last straw. Why is that?

Simply, because it gives NPR the moral high ground. Muslims are convenient, as a cause. Consider how the utterly banal issue of whether or not to build a community center in Manhattan became a flash point for the culture divide, eagerly seized upon by conservatives to lament impending Shari'a but also by liberals determined to use the issue to burnish their constitutional, tolerant bona fides. Lost in the acrimony, ignored by the media, was the simple issue of whether downtown Manhattan needs a community center, whether Muslims in New York need a place to pray, and most importantly, whether or not the rest of the country has any business inserting itself into what is fundamentally a local community decision.

And here's the real problem in a nutshell. Exaggerated political correctness is often a façade that only perpetuates stereotypes rather than combat them. The action by NPR serves a narrative that liberals and Muslims are engaged in a grand conspiracy of censorship against voices that are trying to sound an alarm about an omnipresent threat to freedom from Islam. It also serves a narrative that NPR is a bastion of liberal values and will hold the tide against a rising tide of hatred and intolerance that threatens the foundations of our free society. And Muslims are in the middle, while the forces of freedom battle over our heads.

Ultimately, Muslims are the ones who bear the consequences of this political correctness. Meanwhile, Juan Williams was immediately signed by FOX News for a $2 million contract. The incentive for bigotry against Muslims just increased.

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/on...l?hpid=topnews
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #58 of 119
NEW YORK TIMES
Opinionator
October 25, 2010, 7:00 PM
By STANLEY FISH

Quote:
A few weeks ago, the Cardozo School of Law mounted a conference marking the 20th anniversary of Employment Division v. Smith (1990) , a case in which the Supreme Court asked what happens when a form of behavior demanded by ones religion runs up against a generally applicable law a law not targeted at any particular agenda or point of view that makes the behavior illegal. (The behavior at issue was the ingestion of peyote at a Native American religious ceremony.) The answer the court gave, with Justice Antonin Scalia writing for the majority, was that the religious believer must yield to the law of the state so long as that law was not passed with the intention of curtailing or regulating his or anyone elses religious practice. (This is exactly John Lockes view in his Letter Concerning Toleration.)

Quote:
To make the individuals obligation to obey . . . a law contingent upon the laws coincidence with his religious beliefs would have the effect, Scalia explains, of permitting him, by virtue of his beliefs, to become a law unto himself. And if that were allowed, there would no longer be a single law universally conceived and applied but multiple laws each of which was tailored to the doctrines and commands of a particular faith. In order to have law in the strong sense, Scalia is saying, you can have only one. (No man can serve two masters.)

The conflict between religious imperatives and the legal obligations one has as a citizen of a secular state a state that does not take into account the religious affiliations of its citizens when crafting laws is an old one (Scalia is quotingReynolds v. United States, 1878); but in recent years it has been felt with increased force as Muslim immigrants to Western secular states evidence a desire to order their affairs, especially domestic affairs, by Shariah law rather than by the supposedly neutral law of a godless liberalism. I say supposedly because of the obvious contradiction: how can a law that refuses, on principle, to recognize religious claims be said to be neutral with respect to those claims? Must a devout Muslim (or orthodox Jew or fundamentalist Christian) choose between his or her faith and the letter of the law of the land?

In February 2008, the Right Reverend Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, tried in a now-famous lecture to give a nuanced answer to these questions by making what he considered a modest proposal. After asking what degree of accommodation the laws of the land can and should give to minority communities with their strongly entrenched legal and moral codes, Williams suggested (and it is a suggestion others had made before him) that in some areas of the law a supplementary jurisdiction, deriving from religious law, be recognized by the liberal state, which, rather than either giving up its sovereignty or invoking it peremptorily to still all other voices, agrees to share it in limited areas where more latitude [would be] given in law to rights and scruples rooted in religious identities.

Williams proceeded immediately to surround his proposal with cautionary safeguards no supplementary jurisdiction could have the power to deny access to the rights granted to other citizens or to punish its members for claiming those rights but no safeguards would have satisfied his many critics, including Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who declared roundly that there is only one common law for all of Britain and it is based squarely on British values.

Prompted by Williamss lecture and the responses it provoked, law professors Rex Ahdar and Nicholas Aroney have now put together a volume, to be published in 2011, under the title Sharia in the West, a collection of learned and thoughtful essays by some of the worlds leading scholars of religion and the law. The volumes central question is stated concisely by Erich Kolig, an anthropologist from New Zealand:
Quote:
How far can liberal democracy go, both in accommodating minority groups in public policy, and, more profoundly, in granting official legal recognition to their beliefs, customs, practices and world views, especially when minority religious conduct and values are not congenial to the majority, that is, to liberal democracy itself?

This is exactly the question posed by John Rawls in a preface to the second edition of Political Liberalism, his magisterial account and defense of liberal political principles:
Quote:
How is it possible for those affirming a religious doctrine that is based on religious authority . . . also to hold a reasonable political conception that supports a just democratic regime? The words to stumble on are reasonable and just, which at once introduce the requirement and indicate how hard, if not impossible, it will be to meet it: reasonable means confirming to rational, not religious, principles; just means respecting the equality of all, not just male or faithful, individuals.

With these concepts as the baseline of accommodation, accommodation is going to fall far short of anything that will satisfy the adherents of a religion that encompasses all aspects of public and private law, hygiene, and even courtesy and good manners (A. A. An-Naim). In liberal thought these areas are the ones in which the individual reigns supreme and the value of individual choice is presupposed; but, as Ann Black explains,
Quote:
Muslims do not conceptualize Islam in terms of the Westernized sociological categorization of religion which places the individual at the centre of all analyses.



And so, perhaps predictably, the essays in Shariah in the West tack back and forth between the uneasy alternatives Williams names in his lecture
Quote:
an assumption on the religious side that membership of the community . . . is the only significant category, and on the other side secular governments assumption of a monopoly in terms of defining public and political identity.

These assumptions seem to be standing obstacles to the ability of secular Western states to think through the problem presented by growing Muslim populations that are sometimes militant in their demand to be ruled by their own faiths and traditions.

On the one hand, there is the liberal desire to accord ones fellow human beings the dignity of respecting their deepest beliefs. On the other hand, there is the fear that if those beliefs are allowed their full scope, individual rights and the rule of law may be eroded beyond repair. It would seem, at least on the evidence of most of these essays, that there is simply no way of finding a viable path that accommodates diversity with equality (Ayelet Shachar), that is, accommodates tolerance of diverse religious views with an insistence that, in the last analysis, the rights of individuals cannot be trumped by a theological imperative. No one in this volume quite finds the path.

Except perhaps theologian and religious philosopher John Milbank who puts forward, the editors tell us,
Quote:
the striking argument that only a distinctly Christian polity not a secular postmodern one can actually accord Islam the respect it seeks as a religion.

The italicized phrase is key: the respect liberalism can accord Islam (or any other strong religion) is the respect one extends to curiosities, eccentrics, the backward, the unenlightened and the unfortunately deluded. Liberal respect stops short and this is not a failing of liberalism, but its very essence of taking religious claims seriously, of considering them as possible alternative ways of ordering not only private but public life.

Christianity, says Milbank, will be more capable of deeply respecting Islam because the two faiths share a commitment to the sacred and to a teleological view of history notably lacking in liberalism (again, this is not a criticism but a definition of liberalism): A Christian polity can go further in acknowledging the integral worth of a religious group as a group than a secular polity can. Christianity can acknowledge the worth of Islam not merely in an act of tolerance but in an act of solidarity in the same way that Christian sects can acknowledge each other. If you are a Catholic, Milbank explains, and you do not agree with the Baptists you can nevertheless acknowledge that, relatively speaking, they are pursuing social goals that are comparable with, and promote a shared sense of human dignity as defined by a corporate religious identity. Liberalism can acknowledge individual Muslims or individual Baptists or individual Catholics, but the liberal acknowledgment detaches these religious believers from their community of belief and turns them into citizens who are in the things that count (to liberalism) just like everyone else.

Liberal principles, declares Milbank, will always ensure that the rights of the individual override those of the group. For this reason, he concludes, liberalism cannot defend corporate religious freedom. The neutrality liberalism proclaims is itself entirely secular (it brackets belief; thats what it means by neutrality) and is therefore unable to accord the religious perspective [the] equal protection it rhetorically promises. Religious rights can only be effectively defended pursuant to a specific and distinctly religious framework. Liberal universalism, with its superficial respect for everyone (as long as everyone is superficial) and its deep respect for no one, cant do it.

If that is so, then the other contributors to this volume are whistling Dixie, at least with respect to the hope declared by Rawls that liberalism in some political form might be able to do justice to the strongly religious citizens of a liberal state. Milbanks fellow essayists cannot negotiate or remove the impasse he delineates, but what they can do, and do do with considerable ingenuity and admirable tact, is find ways of blunting and perhaps muffling the conflict between secular and religious imperatives, a conflict that cannot (if Milbank is right, and I think he is) be resolved on the level of theory, but which can perhaps be kept at bay by the ad-hoc, opportunistic, local and stop-gap strategies that are at the heart of politics.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...ref=opinion?hp
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #59 of 119
Oklahoma Islamic law ban challenged
Friday, November 05, 2010
Daniel Makosky on November 5, 2010 10:38 AM ET

Quote:
[JURIST] The Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) filed a lawsuit lawsuit, press release Thursday challenging the constitutionality ofState Question 755[FT Comment: Excerpt below], which amends the state constitution to ban the use of Islamic or international law in state court decisions. The suit, filed in the US District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, seeks to block the Oklahoma State Board of Elections from certifying this week's election results, which approved the measure by a vote of 70 to 30 percent. CAIR argues that the law violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The law would prevent Oklahoma courts from "look[ing] to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures," requiring them only to look to legal precedents of other states for guidance, provided that state does not use Islamic law.

The law was sponsored by state Representative Rex Duncan (R), who described it as a preemptive strike against the use of Islamic law in Oklahoma. The necessity of the amendment has been questioned due to the fact that the use of Islamic law in US courts would likely violate the First Amendment prohibition on laws respecting an establishment of religion.

Quote:
B. Subsection C of this section shall be known as the "Save Our State Amendment".

C. The Courts provided for in subsection A of this section,
when exercising their judicial authority, shall uphold and adhere to
the law as provided in the United States Constitution, the Oklahoma
Constitution, the United States Code, federal regulations
promulgated pursuant thereto, established common law, the Oklahoma
Statutes and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, and if necessary
the law of another state of the United States provided the law of
the other state does not include Sharia Law, in making judicial
decisions.
The courts shall not look to the legal precepts of other
nations or cultures. Specifically, the courts shall not consider
international law or Sharia Law. The provisions of this subsection
shall apply to all cases before the respective courts including, but
not limited to, cases of first impression.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #60 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Muslims do not conceptualize Islam in terms of the Westernized sociological categorization of religion which places the individual at the centre of all analyses.

Brilliant...hugely tempting for a sig....

I'd like to comment on this:

Quote:
the striking argument that only a distinctly Christian polity not a secular postmodern one can actually accord Islam the respect it seeks as a religion.

The italicized phrase is key: the respect liberalism can accord Islam (or any other strong religion) is the respect one extends to curiosities, eccentrics, the backward, the unenlightened and the unfortunately deluded. Liberal respect stops short and this is not a failing of liberalism, but its very essence of taking religious claims seriously, of considering them as possible alternative ways of ordering not only private but public life.

The italicized phrase is correct in as much as Islam is defined solely as a religion. Which is how the West insist on categorizing it.

But from other angles it is not just a religion. It is a civilization also - in fact it may be unique in that in the post-Classical era.

So my answer would be: stop viewing Islam through purely religious lenses - unlike with other religions you don't have to.

Et voila: problem solved.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #61 of 119
There's as much Jewish culture as there is religion. A large chunk of the youth in Israel are atheists, yet still identify themselves as culturally Jewish. Islam is not unique.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #62 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's as much Jewish culture as there is religion. A large chunk of the youth in Israel are atheists, yet still identify themselves as culturally Jewish. Islam is not unique.

Which is why I used the phrase 'post-classical era'.

The Jewish model is exactly the one I was thinking of and one which could be extended to other religions although one might argue it is Judaism that is unique because it is integrally linked to race in which most other religions are not.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #63 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

Oklahoma Islamic law ban challenged
Friday, November 05, 2010
Daniel Makosky on November 5, 2010 10:38 AM ET

Quote:
[JURIST] The Oklahoma chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) filed a lawsuit lawsuit, press release Thursday challenging the constitutionality ofState Question 755[FT Comment: Excerpt below], which amends the state constitution to ban the use of Islamic or international law in state court decisions. The suit, filed in the US District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, seeks to block the Oklahoma State Board of Elections from certifying this week's election results, which approved the measure by a vote of 70 to 30 percent. CAIR argues that the law violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The law would prevent Oklahoma courts from "look[ing] to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures," requiring them only to look to legal precedents of other states for guidance, provided that state does not use Islamic law.

The law was sponsored by state Representative Rex Duncan (R), who described it as a preemptive strike against the use of Islamic law in Oklahoma. The necessity of the amendment has been questioned due to the fact that the use of Islamic law in US courts would likely violate the First Amendment prohibition on laws respecting an establishment of religion.

Quote:
B. Subsection C of this section shall be known as the "Save Our State Amendment".

C. The Courts provided for in subsection A of this section,
when exercising their judicial authority, shall uphold and adhere to
the law as provided in the United States Constitution, the Oklahoma
Constitution, the United States Code, federal regulations
promulgated pursuant thereto, established common law, the Oklahoma
Statutes and rules promulgated pursuant thereto, and if necessary
the law of another state of the United States provided the law of
the other state does not include Sharia Law, in making judicial
decisions.
The courts shall not look to the legal precepts of other
nations or cultures. Specifically, the courts shall not consider
international law or Sharia Law. The provisions of this subsection
shall apply to all cases before the respective courts including, but
not limited to, cases of first impression.

UPDATE

Court order blocks Okla. amendment on Islamic law
By TIM TALLEY, Associated Press 1 hr 46 mins ago
Quote:
OKLAHOMA CITY A federal judge has issued a temporary restraining order blocking a state constitutional amendment that prohibits state courts from considering international or Islamic law when deciding cases.
U.S. District Judge Vicki Miles-LaGrange ruled Monday morning in Oklahoma City following a brief hearing. It prevents the state election board from certifying the results of Tuesday's general election in which the amendment was approved by 70 percent of the voters.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #64 of 119
English Defence League demos 'feed Islamic extremism'

Quote:
Right wing groups like the English Defence League are turning parts of Britain into recruiting grounds for Islamic extremists, police have said.

The EDL emerged last year and has held demonstrations in a number of towns and cities against radicalisation.

But the West Midlands Counter Terrorism Unit has told BBC Radio 5 live there is evidence EDL events can encourage extremists.....
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #65 of 119


BNP parliamentary candidate organises EDL protest in which Muslims are called 'scum'

Quote:
Far right extremists were condemned last night over their protests in a North city centre over a planned Islamic school and cultural centre.

Supporters of the English Defence League (EDL) staged a demonstration outside the former Bishop's Palace in Benwell, Newcastle, where the new centre will be. More than 100 people, including one dressed as Osama Bin Laden, marched with St George flags from the Fox and Hounds pub on West Road to the premises on Benwell Lane, where they began to chant "scum" and "no surrender to the Taliban".......
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #66 of 119
Federal judge extends order blocking Oklahoma Islamic law ban
Zach Zagger on November 23, 2010 8:04 AM ET
Quote:
[JURIST] A judge for the US District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma on Monday extended a temporary restraining order blocking the controversial Oklahoma constitutional amendment (SQ 755) banning the courts from considering foreign or Islamic law. Judge Vicki Miles-LeGrange said sheneeded more time to deal with this issue, which pits the will of the voters against the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. Still, she is expected to rule by the end of the month. The case was brought by Muneer Awad, executive director of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) in Oklahoma, claiming the law is a violation of the First Amendment because it disfavors and stigmatizes his religion. Oklahoma voters overwhelmingly approved the measure in the November 2 mid-term elections with 70 percent of the vote.

Miles-LeGrange issued the temporary restraining order just six days after the election, stopping the Oklahoma Board of Elections from certifying the results. SQ 755 would prevent Oklahoma courts from "look[ing] to the legal precepts of other nations or cultures," requiring them only to look to legal precedents of other states for guidance, provided that state does not use Islamic law. It was sponsored by state Representative Rex Duncan (R), who described it as a preemptive strike against the use of Islamic law in Oklahoma. Duncan defended SQ 755 as necessary to protect Oklahoma from an attack on the fundamental Judeo-Christian principles on which he says the US is founded. On the other hand, Haroon Moghul Executive Director of the Maydan Institute has argued that the passage of SQ 755 was done simply out of the "flawed logic" of a fear of everything Muslim.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #67 of 119
Judge issues permanent injunction on Oklahoma Sharia law ban
Quote:
Washington (CNN) -- A federal judge in Oklahoma has issued an order putting on hold the certification of a ballot measure that forbids state courts from considering or using international laws, as well as Sharia, or Islamic law. That permanent injunction will allow the judge more time to consider the constitutional issues raised by State Question 755, which was approved by voters earlier this month.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #68 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Some of you may have been following the discussion with Fellows and Camp David and others in the Christianity thread were we discussed posting some threads about various religions - well, welcome to the Islam one!

First a few things - not rules because there aren't any but more an outline of the spirit of the thread. Basically the idea is to post and discuss around the following:
  1. Things that are surprising or not widely known about the faith
  2. Things that are happening that help foster unity and progression
  3. General positive stuff!!

That doesn't mean that this is a promotion of Islam or the other threads I hope people will start will be promotions of a given religion either but more that it is for discussion in a positive way.

I know I've been very negative in the past about Christianity in particular and also atheism but I don't want to do that any more which is one of the reasons I agreed to make this thread -and why I hope I'll be able to be positive in the sister-threads if there are any.

So hopefully we can all find something good and have a positive environment here - Let's all try and respect that, if anyone really wants an argument or to post the negative aspects we all know are out in the world then let's 'take it outside' and do it in a specific thread for that!! I probably won't join in though.

So..enough preamble - I was thinking of posting some elements of common ground between Islam (or more specifically the Middle East) and the West where there are many influences on each other which we don't always realize but I think that can wait till later because while compiling that list I noticed quite a few interesting articles about the growing inter-faith initiatives and moderate Islamic voices coming to the fore.

I really think that now there is a growing renaissance in this 'inter-faith' area - I don't like the term but there is not another one as yes. The Cordoba Initiative in NYC would be an example but there are many, many such things happening.

I noticed this article and video about Pakistanis in NYC voicing the real Pakistan.

These guys in the video are actually Sufis which are the third major sect of Islam along with Sunnis and Shi'i but they are inclusive and tolerant so they could be either Sunni or Shi'i or neither. Sometimes they are even Christians and their doctrinal position is more like Christianity than traditional Islam, they revere Jesus a lot more also.

I don't really want to talk too much about Sufism but those interested can find out I think. This is just to introduce the thread and get it rolling.

I hope people will participate with either questions, ideas they have, discussion of others' contributions or contributions of their own of positive developments in the world or in Islam.

I also hope and encourage other people with interest and knowledge to post their own 'official religion X' threads - we should have as many as poss; Buddhism, Judaism, Atheism - whatever...hopefully we can develop a more positive spirit than the traditional one we kind of got stuck in when discussing each other's beliefs!!

Simply put Love Each Other.Respect one and another what ever religion you believe in.
post #69 of 119
Thread Starter 
An untold story of the Nazi Holocaust is on display at a Jewish temple in St. Louis, Missouri. It's a photography exhibit, featuring portraits of elderly Albanian Muslims - men and women who helped save nearly 2,000 Jews who fled to Albania during World War II.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #70 of 119
Georgia woman arrested for wearing headscarf in court files lawsuit

Jaclyn Belczyk at 8:52 AM ET

Quote:
[JURIST] The American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia (ACLUGA) filed a lawsuit; press release Tuesday on behalf of a Muslim woman who was arrested for refusing to remove her headscarf, or hijab, in court. Lisa Valentine was arrested in December 2008 and ordered to serve 10 days in jail for contempt of court after she refused to remove her headscarf upon entering a security checkpoint in an Atlanta courtroom. Douglasville Municipal Court Judge Keith Rollins found Valentine in contempt for violating a court policy that prohibits wearing headgear in court. Valentine, who also goes by her Islamic name Miedah, was released from jail later in the day after the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) called on the US Department of Justice (DOJ) to investigate the incident, although jail officials did not confirm their reason for letting her go. The ACLUGA claims that the defendants, the city of Douglasville and the arresting officers, violated Valetine's First and Fourth Amendment rights, as well as the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. According to the complaint, "[a]s a result of Defendants' conduct, Mrs. Valentine suffered, and continues to suffer, extreme humiliation, shame, mental anguish, and emotional distress."

The wearing of religious attire in courtrooms and other public places has been a controversial subject. In May, the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled that a Muslim woman's religious rights were not violated by police officers when she was forced to remove her headscarf while being detained in a holding cell. In April, a judge for the US District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan dismissed a lawsuit against a Michigan judge who ordered a Muslim woman to remove her headscarf in court. The suit was filed by CAIR on behalf of Raneen Albaghdady against Judge William Callahan of the Wayne County Circuit Court. Last year, a Spanish lawyer filed a complaint with the General Council of the Judiciary [official website, in Spanish] alleging abuse of power and discrimination after a National Court judge asked her to leave the courtroom for declining to remove her hijab.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #71 of 119
Some heart warming news. If only certain US politicians could promote human shields instead of "death panels" and crosshairs-

"Egypts majority Muslim population stuck to its word Thursday night. What had been a promise of solidarity to the weary Coptic community, was honoured, when thousands of Muslims showed up at Coptic Christmas eve mass services in churches around the country and at candlelight vigils held outside.

From the well-known to the unknown, Muslims had offered their bodies as human shields for last nights mass, making a pledge to collectively fight the threat of Islamic militants and towards an Egypt free from sectarian strife.

We either live together, or we die together, was the sloganeering genius of Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon whose cultural centre distributed flyers at churches in Cairo Thursday night, and who has been credited with first floating the human shield idea.

"In the days following the brutal attack on Saints Church in Alexandria, which left 21 dead on New Year eve, solidarity between Muslims and Copts has seen an unprecedented peak. Millions of Egyptians changed their Facebook profile pictures to the image of a cross within a crescent the symbol of an Egypt for All. Around the city, banners went up calling for unity, and depicting mosques and churches, crosses and crescents, together as one."
~ http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madr...their-bodies-h
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
post #72 of 119
I wholly approve. That's awesome.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #73 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Some heart warming news. If only certain US politicians could promote human shields instead of "death panels" and crosshairs-

"Egypts majority Muslim population stuck to its word Thursday night. What had been a promise of solidarity to the weary Coptic community, was honoured, when thousands of Muslims showed up at Coptic Christmas eve mass services in churches around the country and at candlelight vigils held outside.

From the well-known to the unknown, Muslims had offered their bodies as human shields for last nights mass, making a pledge to collectively fight the threat of Islamic militants and towards an Egypt free from sectarian strife.

We either live together, or we die together, was the sloganeering genius of Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon whose cultural centre distributed flyers at churches in Cairo Thursday night, and who has been credited with first floating the human shield idea.

"In the days following the brutal attack on Saints Church in Alexandria, which left 21 dead on New Year eve, solidarity between Muslims and Copts has seen an unprecedented peak. Millions of Egyptians changed their Facebook profile pictures to the image of a cross within a crescent the symbol of an Egypt for All. Around the city, banners went up calling for unity, and depicting mosques and churches, crosses and crescents, together as one."
~ http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madr...their-bodies-h

But....but......those Muzzlims hate Christians.....they want to chop their heads off....

Wait...breaking news........ reports are coming in that Muzzlims hate Christmas and are plotting to blow it up....

Bastards!!

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #74 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

But....but......those Muzzlims hate Christians.....they want to chop their heads off....

Wait...breaking news........ reports are coming in that Muzzlims hate Christmas and are plotting to blow it up....

Bastards!!


Wasn't this supposed to be your thread on Islam that was supposed to be positive?

Quote:
  1. Things that are surprising or not widely known about the faith
  2. Things that are happening that help foster unity and progression
  3. General positive stuff!!

That post you have quoted was great news. And you saw it as great news. But you had take the negative spin on it to spit on those who you thought might be reading and possibly thinking what you were lampooning. If nothing ever changes, nothing ever changes. Get angry and speak to actual insults or misrepresentations being posted, you know that there are enough of those here, you don't have to invent things to be angry about.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #75 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Wasn't this supposed to be your thread on Islam that was supposed to be positive?

That post you have quoted was great news. And you saw it as great news. But you had take the negative spin on it to spit on those who you thought might be reading and possibly thinking what you were lampooning. If nothing ever changes, nothing ever changes. Get angry and speak to actual insults or misrepresentations being posted, you know that there are enough of those here, you don't have to invent things to be angry about.

Apologies. I was having a sort of brain-storm when I wrote it....no excuse.

I do tend to the hyperbolic sometimes...but yes, is very good news. Although somewhat frustrating that it is not being reported anywhere in the MSM.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #76 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Apologies. I was having a sort of brain-storm when I wrote it....no excuse.

I do tend to the hyperbolic sometimes...but yes, is very good news. Although somewhat frustrating that it is not being reported anywhere in the MSM.

Stories like this should be reported in the mainstream. They would get plenty of attention by readers and would actually answer to the people who keep asking for someone on "that side" to stand up to the terrorists and say no. There are those that do. But you don't hear about it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #77 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Stories like this should be reported in the mainstream. They would get plenty of attention by readers and would actually answer to the people who keep asking for someone on "that side" to stand up to the terrorists and say no. There are those that do. But you don't hear about it.

Indeed. I think it happens quite a lot.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #78 of 119
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
Reply
post #79 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:

I am a bit conflicted on these kind of issues.

On the one hand I think EVERYONE should be able to wear whatever they want. Though in sports there may have to be an acceptance that certain things cannot be worn: piercings, earrings etc in certain games.

In religious terms I support women's right to wear hijab or niqab or whatever but actually I do disagree with it in some way - because 90% of the time it is a signifier of some sort of Wahabi influence.

But then again, one cannot support the Islamophobes who want to ban it. It's a toughie.

One thing about this though: this girl seems to be 12. She does not have to wear a headscarf even in the most fundie cultures. Why is it an issue?

Many, many Muslims know very, very little about their own religion. It's sad.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #80 of 119
Thread Starter 
Back to GOOD news:

Quote:
Forty years after following the hippy trail to South Asia, John Butt is still living in the region, and still spreading a message of peace and love - though now as an Islamic scholar....he has spent most of the past 40 years living among the fierce Pashtun tribes, who inhabit the lawless hinterland between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

He went there in 1969, he says, as a dope-smoking young hippy and never came home.

When his fellow hippies grew up and went home to become accountants and lawyers, John stayed on - becoming fluent in the Pashto language and studying Islam.

But John's world changed in the late 1980s, with the arrival of jihadists, who came to the border areas from all over the world to fight the war against the Russians in Afghanistan.

"I saw the rural, religious Pashtun way of life I had come to love so much being diluted, contaminated and poisoned, in particular by Arabs from the Middle East," he says.
"The way they practise Islam is very different to the tribal areas, but they used money and influence to impose their own set of values."

So he decided to fight for his adopted culture.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Official Islam Thread!