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post #81 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Back to GOOD news:
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #82 of 119
Long Island Muslims fear their congressman's hearings could flame Islamophobia
Quote:
The House hearings, scheduled to begin next month, have touched off a wave of panic throughout the U.S. Muslim community, which has spent much of the past year battling what it sees as a rising tide of Islamophobia. Conference calls, strategy sessions and letter-writing campaigns have been launched. Angry op-eds have compared the congressional inquiry to McCarthyism and the World War II persecution of Japanese Americans.

Rep. Peter King's plan for hearings on Muslim 'radicalization' draws criticism from all sides

In all fairness, should the hearings include the likes of Terry Jones and the WBC?
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #83 of 119
Thread Starter 
Muslims pay respects at Auschwitz

Quote:
A delegation of some 150 representatives from 40 countries, headed by Senegal President Abdoulaye Wade, visited the Nazi death camp Auschwitz in Poland on Tuesday to pay respects to the victims of the Holocaust.

The delegation included representatives of the heads of state of Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan and Turkey, as well as former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and Deputy UN Secretary General Asha- Rose Migiro.

The visit aimed to teach about the 'horrific consequences of Nazi and Fascist ideology' and to inspire leaders to 'combat the denial of the Holocaust and all forms of intolerance,' said UNESCO, one of the organizers.

Other organizers included the City Hall of Paris and the Aladdin Project, which aims to promote respect between Jews and Muslims.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #84 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post


One thing about this though: this girl seems to be 12. She does not have to wear a headscarf even in the most fundie cultures. Why is it an issue?

The obligation to wear the headscarf is bound to the age of puberty, 12 years may well be in that range, some girls reach puberty earlier, some later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Many, many Muslims know very, very little about their own religion. It's sad.

Indeed, but I didn't expect that level of selfreflection.
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post #85 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The obligation to wear the headscarf is bound to the age of puberty, 12 years may well be in that range, some girls reach puberty earlier, some later.

I don't think there is an obligation unless one takes a rather rigid view and adheres to later judicial rulings of certain schools of thought.

Certainly it does not derive from the Qur'an and is demonstrably a pre-Islamic practice.

Quote:
Indeed, but I didn't expect that level of selfreflection.

No...always best not to.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #86 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't think there is an obligation unless one takes a rather rigid view and adheres to later judicial rulings of certain schools of thought.

Certainly it does not derive from the Qur'an and is demonstrably a pre-Islamic practice.

Whatever your personal freeminded interpretation of the Quran, you have to admit that conservative Islam views the quranic order

In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and
daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer
garments over their persons...that they should be known and not
molested." [sura 33, verse 59]


to include a headscarf.



In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, [a list of relatives], [household servants], or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."

[sura 24, verse 31]

The women in prophet Muhammad's time were already wearing a headcover, and probably the men, too, but they let their necks and chests free and this verse told the believing women to extend their headcover to also cover their necks and chests.

In judaism headcovering is an obligation for married women, in christianity headcovering is obligatory for women who want to pray.
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post #87 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Whatever your personal freeminded interpretation of the Quran, you have to admit that conservative Islam views the quranic order

Firstly I would object to the term 'free-minded'. If there is one thing I have learned from Islam - and it is the core of Islam - it is this: I have my interpretation based on my spiritual state..you have yours based on your state.

Your state is not my state and although one may be 'higher' we cannot ourselves know. All we can do is do our best and in the end God will be the judge.

So my understanding of the Qur'an is merely an expression of my current state of learning which I endeavour to constantly expand....probably unsuccessfully and I don't know much. But that's ok...the point is to try to be sincere from where you are and strive to find more knowledge..I hope I do this. Probably you do it too.....we can reach different conclusions, it's ok.

Quote:
In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons...that they should be known and not molested."


sura 33, verse 59

In line with the above, I see no mention of headscarf there.

As Islam exhorts people to rationality and using their reason I have to ask why not? If we are to infer headscarf is meant then why does it not say so? Is God incapable of saying it?

And the fact that it could mean headscarf or not - and there IS debate on this - leads to confusion. Does God intend confusion.

My reason says no.

Quote:
In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, [a list of relatives], [household servants], or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."

[sura 24, verse 31]

This Surah is more explicit. It uses the word for headscarf but states 'bosom' not head.

Again why? Why not head if is meant alongside bosom which IS mentioned? Why leave to infer?

This is what you call free-thinking/...it is what I call 'aql or reason. But perhaps that is free-thinking. Whatever it is, it is Islamic and existed in the early years of Islam though admittedly has now been stamped out.

Quote:
The women in prophet Muhammad's time were already wearing a headcover, and probably the men, too, but they let their necks and chests free and this verse told the believing women to extend their headcover to also cover their necks and chests.

Not the Muslims. The Christians were.

Quote:
In judaism headcovering is an obligation for married women, in christianity headcovering is obligatory for women who want to pray.

See above.

Btw, you do realize that in the early Muslim community there was no such injunction whatsoever until 627 CE.

Then a verse was revealed which applied ONLY to Muhammad's wives when being addressed by men:

Quote:
“Believers, do not enter the Prophet’s house unless asked. And if you are invited to do so do not linger. And when you ask something from the Prophet’s wives, do so from behind a hijab. This will assure the purity of your hearts as well as theirs” (33:53).

Here hijab could also mean a screen. Note also it tells the MEN to ask from behind the hijab - not the wives.

In fact, nowhere in the whole of the Quran is the term hijab applied to any woman other than the wives of Muhammad cited above. I challenge you to find a quote with this exact Arabic word. You will not be able to.

In this case, the hadith has become holy writ and taken as superceding the Qur'an - a hadith written by men. Sometimes even men with no understanding of anything much.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #88 of 119
Values are personal and they vary widely from person to person. Cameron thinks there's more to it than that...if you're a Muslim Extremist Terrorist and if you're not.

Interesting timing too Cameron. Maybe we should stop the funding for and outlaw Conservative groups that lead people to violent acts within the EDL?

"David Cameron will today signal a sea-change in the government fight against home-grown terrorism, saying the state must confront, and not consort with, the non-violent Muslim groups that are ambiguous about British values such as equality between sexes, democracy and integration.

To belong in Britain is to believe in these values, he will say. Claiming the previous government had been the victim of fear and muddled thinking by backing a state-sponsored form of multiculturalism, the prime minister will state that his government "will no longer fund or share platforms with organisations that, while non-violent, are certainly in some cases part of the problem".

In a major speech to a security conference in Munich, he will demand: "We need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism."

He will say that "some organisations that seek to present themselves as a gateway to the Muslim community are showered with public money while doing little to combat extremism. This is like turning to a rightwing fascist party to fight a violent white supremacist movement."

Cameron's aides, aware the speech may prove highly controversial, refused to identify the organisations in his sights, but it is clear one target is the Muslim Council of Britain.

Last night some Muslim groups criticised the prime minister for making the speech on the same day that the English Defence League is holding its biggest ever demonstration, in Luton."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...slim-extremism
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #89 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

In a major speech to a security conference in Munich, he will demand: "We need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism."

Very worrying. When right-wingers start talking 'muscular' I tend to get concerned.

Another thing: if multiculturalism has 'failed' then whose fault is it?

Quote:
The rescue attempt of the drowning man failed....bastard...if he was still alive we should punish him for that....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #90 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Very worrying. When right-wingers start talking 'muscular' I tend to get concerned.

Another thing: if multiculturalism has 'failed' then whose fault is it?

I find it really shocking that a UK PM would ever say its "failed". What does he want, us all to be cultural clones of him? I really think he's a national disgrace now.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #91 of 119
There is something to be said for intolerance of intolerance. If a group of people come in to a country and decide they now want to change the way everyone else behaves around them, that's unreasonable. If a group of immigrants who hate seeing exposed boobs want to eliminate the Page 3 girl, does tolerance really require changing the culture to fit the incoming group exhibiting their own intolerance? Shouldn't the response be something more along the lines of "fuck you, you came here knowing full well we have page 3 girls so don't look at it or just go away"?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #92 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There is something to be said for intolerance of intolerance. If a group of people come in to a country and decide they now want to change the way everyone else behaves around them, that's unreasonable. If a group of immigrants who hate seeing exposed boobs want to eliminate the Page 3 girl, does tolerance really require changing the culture to fit the incoming group exhibiting their own intolerance? Shouldn't the response be something more along the lines of "fuck you, you came here knowing full well we have page 3 girls so don't look at it or just go away"?

Or Jews in Nazi Germany maybe? How about - "You know we are racists here with genocidal plans so now....."

You get the picture.

Actually your reasoning exactly demonstrates Hands point above:

1) Immigrants want no boobs = BAD they are immigrants

2) Natives want to join the EDL and kick immigrants heads in = OK/GOOD they are British (it is our traditional values after all)

Btw, your whole point shows the degree you have bought into the thinking of right-wingers like Cameron and the EDL - which is surprising.

None of his points are really true are they - they are just Fox News/Daily Mail headlines. I am really really surprised someone like you has been affected and taken it on board. I can't get over that.

Where are these people protesting over boobs in the Sun? Are you really saying the Sun is Culture???? Millions of people object to it: every feminist, every leftie, every anti-Murdoch thinker, the whole of LIVERPOOL to a man. But I haven't heard of immigrants doing it. In fact though.....it would be very 'British' to condemn it.

Who are these people being intolerant in UK society? Cameron says he will 'stop funding them' so that implies he HAS been funding them. It also implies they are not exactly al Qaeda if that has been the case. So who are they? I can tell you: ordinary Muslims but perhaps ones that (shock) oppose the government...and something else: they are most likely not immigrants at all.

They could well be 2nd or 3rd generation BRITISH.

Integration: another thing....where I used to live in London there was a whole area, perhaps 10 minutes from my house, which was designated as an eruv where every single person in the area (more or less) was Jewish. I didn't see much integration. And you know what that's ok. It's ok from my pov because I don't have a problem with it...although Cameron does disagree in the abstract it is ok with him also because he is only talking about MUSLIMS.

Final point - this one concerns the rampant stinking hypocrisy of the British nano-classes. I have lived in many different countries. Wherever I have found myself I have - to my horror - pretty soon realized there is a large British community on my doorstep.

I take pains to avoid these character but sometimes it is impossible (though we move in widely different circles). I invariably find the following - and this is almost 100% true and universal wherever I go - the British community:
  • Never speaks the language of the place they live
  • Always subscrinbes to Sky English TV
  • Never mixes with the locals
  • Centres their life around fish and chip shops decorated with English flags
  • Only ever goes to the local 'English Pub'
  • Lives like they are still in the UK

Oh and one more: "wanks on interminably about how bad England got so they had to leave because of foreigners who refuse to integrate"

I've got to also believe that you don't object to atheist prostletyzing in religious societies - which is something that is rabidly increasing and is exactly in the category you are deriding (except that atheists 'have the truth' of course) - so this is a massive double standard.

Not good.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #93 of 119
You're certainly misrepresenting my position. When immigrants come in and want to restrict the freedoms of the native populace, that's a problem, is it not? The page 3 thing was purely hypothetical and I posed it as that, so please don't crucify me over that.

As an atheist, I'm not looking to RESTRICT the rights of others. I'm not making dry county laws or giving preferential tax havens to special social clubs. In fact, the very opposite. I have no problem with immigrants coming in and disagreeing with certain morals or standards. But don't go try to legislate those more restrictive "morals."

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #94 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're certainly misrepresenting my position. When immigrants come in and want to restrict the freedoms of the native populace, that's a problem, is it not? The page 3 thing was purely hypothetical and I posed it as that, so please don't crucify me over that.

As an atheist, I'm not looking to RESTRICT the rights of others. I'm not making dry county laws or giving preferential tax havens to special social clubs. In fact, the very opposite. I have no problem with immigrants coming in and disagreeing with certain morals or standards. But don't go try to legislate those more restrictive "morals."

But there is your problem..

If they are legal and can vote or petition the government they have a say of 1 vote just as you do.

Tough beans even if your point "seems" valid. You live in an ever-changing world BR.

Trust me I am aware of this reality.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #95 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're certainly misrepresenting my position. When immigrants come in and want to restrict the freedoms of the native populace, that's a problem, is it not? The page 3 thing was purely hypothetical and I posed it as that, so please don't crucify me over that.

As an atheist, I'm not looking to RESTRICT the rights of others. I'm not making dry county laws or giving preferential tax havens to special social clubs. In fact, the very opposite. I have no problem with immigrants coming in and disagreeing with certain morals or standards. But don't go try to legislate those more restrictive "morals."

Do they ever? Not sure I know of any examples outside of right-wing tabloids.

Again would depend on the 'freedom' wouldn't even if so?

I suppose if an immigrant emigrated to the deep south in the 50s and pointed out why segregation was bad he might also be 'restricting the freedoms of the native populace' etc etc

If something bad needs pointing out it doesn't matter who does it. I think you might have a problem when the immigrants bring their religion no?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #96 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This Surah is more explicit. It uses the word for headscarf but states 'bosom' not head.

Again why? Why not head if is meant alongside bosom which IS mentioned? Why leave to infer?

This is what you call free-thinking/...it is what I call 'aql or reason. But perhaps that is free-thinking. Whatever it is, it is Islamic and existed in the early years of Islam though admittedly has now been stamped out.



Not the Muslims. The Christians were.

Not only the christians, the jews as well, and the muslims, too. During the early times they tried to be like the people of the book, to differentiate themselves from the polytheists, they prayed in direction of Jerusalem and the women tried to dress more modest like the christian and jewish women were. God then revealed a verse to detail things a bit, ordering the muslim women to use their "khumur" (headcoverings) they were already using to cover their necks and chests as well.

A hadith by prophet Muhammad further details that a girl after reaching puberty should cover everything except face and hands in the presence of non-relatives.






Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

See above.

Btw, you do realize that in the early Muslim community there was no such injunction whatsoever until 627 CE.

Then a verse was revealed which applied ONLY to Muhammad's wives when being addressed by men:



Here hijab could also mean a screen. Note also it tells the MEN to ask from behind the hijab - not the wives.

In fact, nowhere in the whole of the Quran is the term hijab applied to any woman other than the wives of Muhammad cited above. I challenge you to find a quote with this exact Arabic word. You will not be able to.

In this case, the hadith has become holy writ and taken as superceding the Qur'an - a hadith written by men. Sometimes even men with no understanding of anything much.

Yes, hijab was meant for the prophet's wifes as a screen and was not meant for the normal muslim women, so there is no rule to cover the faces for muslim women.

But the headcovering, khimar, and to use it to also cover the chests and necks, is a rule for all muslim women and further detailed by a hadith of prophet Muhamad to cover everything except face and hands.

The wish to interpret it differently is a modern one, and derived from a wish to give in to the assimilation-pressures applied by the western world.
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post #97 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The wish to interpret it differently is a modern one, and derived from a wish to give in to the assimilation-pressures applied by the western world.

Well...that's a good thing then. We don't live in the 7th century Arabian desert.

All knowledge is updating. Where it isn't it isn't knowledge.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #98 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Well...that's a good thing then. We don't live in the 7th century Arabian desert.

All knowledge is updating. Where it isn't it isn't knowledge.

If the motive is assimilation to the western world, then it's not a good thing. If the motive were a genuine interest in updating knowledge I don't see a problem, but in this case of headcovering there is no motive besides the assimilation-pressure.
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post #99 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

If the motive is assimilation to the western world, then it's not a good thing. If the motive were a genuine interest in updating knowledge I don't see a problem, but in this case of headcovering there is no motive besides the assimilation-pressure.

You see this is the problem.. not only is it what makes people ignorant of Islam see it as 'backward' it also empowers various scumbags within the community - we all know who they are - to behave in barbaric ways.

And of course it hands the loaded gun to scumbags like Wilders and other Nazis.

You talk about headscarves and they are pretty innocuous - why not? But it doesn't stop there does it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #100 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

You see this is the problem.. not only is it what makes people ignorant of Islam see it as 'backward' it also empowers various scumbags within the community - we all know who they are - to behave in barbaric ways.

And of course it hands the loaded gun to scumbags like Wilders and other Nazis.

You talk about headscarves and they are pretty innocuous - why not? But it doesn't stop there does it?

We as muslims should become selfaware, selfconscious and confident enough to develop ourselves without giving in to western assimilation and to think "these islamic rulings might let us look backward to the west"...

I think headscarfes are a quranic ruling and contemplated by hadiths, the question if that islamic ruling can be abrogated for our times can be discussed, but it should be within our islamic communities and for their good and not to please western audiences and to give in to their assimilation-pressures.

But personally I don't see any need for abrogation cause a headscarfe is hardly damaging nor restrictive. Face-veils or full burquas can because they prevent identity and communication.

The other question is are there any punishment-rulings for not wearing headscarfes that also cover necks and chests? In the quran there are no punishment-rulings and as of now I haven't found any hadiths detailing punishments for immodest dressing.
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post #101 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

We as muslims should become selfaware, selfconscious and confident enough to develop ourselves without giving in to western assimilation and to think "these islamic rulings might let us look backward to the west"...

I think headscarfes are a quranic ruling and contemplated by hadiths, the question if that islamic ruling can be abrogated for our times can be discussed, but it should be within our islamic communities and for their good and not to please western audiences and to give in to their assimilation-pressures.

But personally I don't see any need for abrogation cause a headscarfe is hardly damaging nor restrictive. Face-veils or full burquas can because they prevent identity and communication.

The other question is are there any punishment-rulings for not wearing headscarfes that also cover necks and chests? In the quran there are no punishment-rulings and as of now I haven't found any hadiths detailing punishments for immodest dressing.

I agree with this - but evolution applies to ideas and abstracts too and things that fail to evolve to deal with threats tend to die out.

Anything is possible. God himself may even send a new revelation abrogating many things as is claimed in the hadith at the end time.

Personally I believe we are in the end time now and many, if not most, of the prophecies in that line have already come true. I don't know why people don't pay more attention to that. Muslims I mean.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #102 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I agree with this - but evolution applies to ideas and abstracts too and things that fail to evolve to deal with threats tend to die out.

Anything is possible. God himself may even send a new revelation abrogating many things as is claimed in the hadith at the end time.

Personally I believe we are in the end time now and many, if not most, of the prophecies in that line have already come true. I don't know why people don't pay more attention to that. Muslims I mean.

Maybe, who knows, but if there comes a new revelation or other endtimes-things, we will see it.

Until then what's wrong in trying to follow the current revelation we have now?
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post #103 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

Maybe, who knows, but if there comes a new revelation or other endtimes-things, we will see it.

Until then what's wrong in trying to follow the current revelation we have now?

Nothing obviously but when things need clarification or updating - and this is permissable - it is men who do it. The clerics.

I think sometimes they can be wrong.

I think they have sometimes made some very serious errors that have derailed the whole religion. It is obvious in Shi'ism for example.

I also think that these clerics have no right to impose themselves between a person and God. Priests are not allowed in Islam and everyone is equal - and yet these clerics sometimes have taken that role for themselves.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #104 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Nothing obviously but when things need clarification or updating - and this is permissable - it is men who do it. The clerics.

I think sometimes they can be wrong.

I think they have sometimes made some very serious errors that have derailed the whole religion. It is obvious in Shi'ism for example.

I also think that these clerics have no right to impose themselves between a person and God. Priests are not allowed in Islam and everyone is equal - and yet these clerics sometimes have taken that role for themselves.


In the quran there is a verse telling a portion of people to study the Quran in order to warn the people better of the evil and its various manifestations. That was the basis for the clerics in Islam. In sunni-islam the clerics are merely advisers while in shia-islam they also have direct political might.

I guess it's like with every other profession, it's good to have some people who do it professionally and invest the time and ressources that ordinary people can't because they learn different things or are absorbed in everyday-life.

But they should not have political power as well, in order to have separation of powers, and their spiritual rulings should only come as third, after the Quran and the sunna. In cases where neither Quran nor sunna can help, clerics can make a judgment when they can agree upon one, if they can't agree, it should stay open, and even if they agree, it should be only a temporary judgment to be redecided by the next generation.
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post #105 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

In the quran there is a verse telling a portion of people to study the Quran in order to warn the people better of the evil and its various manifestations. That was the basis for the clerics in Islam. In sunni-islam the clerics are merely advisers while in shia-islam they also have direct political might.

I guess it's like with every other profession, it's good to have some people who do it professionally and invest the time and ressources that ordinary people can't because they learn different things or are absorbed in everyday-life.

But they should not have political power as well, in order to have separation of powers, and their spiritual rulings should only come as third, after the Quran and the sunna. In cases where neither Quran nor sunna can help, clerics can make a judgment when they can agree upon one, if they can't agree, it should stay open, and even if they agree, it should be only a temporary judgment to be redecided by the next generation.

This is kind of my point though - you have said how it is for sure. My question is 'is this how it should be?'

If a person is born into Islam then ok, it is obvious that laws and culture and faith go hand in hand.....but someone coming to Islam from the outside (and this is if anything more valid imho as it is indicative of a search for truth that is not always there with people born into the religion or culture) is more often than not looking for God.

As such I don't think laws and societal rules have a similar role. Personally I am only interested in finding answers. I don't need a societal code. In fact, I often disagree with rulers and Govts on principle.

I like this quote of Michael Muhammad Knight:

Quote:
Q: When the character Yusef Ali in The Taqwacores compares punk and Islam, he says, both have suffered from sell-outs and hypocrites, but also from true believers whose devotion had crippled their creative drive. How can people both believe and evolve in their faith?

A: Once you recognize how much of your tradition is a product of historical forces, it empowers you to be an historical force yourself. You can believe in Muhammads experience in the cave, or Buddhas experience under the tree, but whatever comes next is just you and me deciding what it means. We need to believe in our own authority. Neither Muhammad nor Buddha got the truth spoon-fed to them. They had to go deep into themselves and find it.

This is pretty much my view actually.

Link
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #106 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

This is kind of my point though - you have said how it is for sure. My question is 'is this how it should be?'

If a person is born into Islam then ok, it is obvious that laws and culture and faith go hand in hand.....but someone coming to Islam from the outside (and this is if anything more valid imho as it is indicative of a search for truth that is not always there with people born into the religion or culture) is more often than not looking for God.

As such I don't think laws and societal rules have a similar role. Personally I am only interested in finding answers. I don't need a societal code. In fact, I often disagree with rulers and Govts on principle.

I think governments and social codes are necessary for a society otherwise anarchy breaks out.

The question how governments and social codes are organized is open to discussion since neither the quran nor the sunna defined a specific form. But regardless of how it is organized or formed, the resulting society should mirror the values and spirit of the quranic revelation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I like this quote of Michael Muhammad Knight:



This is pretty much my view actually.

Link

As long as it doesn't involve to defy God's direct commandments, I'm fine with it.

But I guess it involves exactly that, basically his opinion is that everyone can become his own prophet, and I obviously disagree with that.
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post #107 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

I think governments and social codes are necessary for a society otherwise anarchy breaks out.

The question how governments and social codes are organized is open to discussion since neither the quran nor the sunna defined a specific form. But regardless of how it is organized or formed, the resulting society should mirror the values and spirit of the quranic revelation.

That's a different question. Society needs regulating but that - imo - has no impact on one's spiritual position.

People are fond of asking these days "Is Islam compatible with democracy?"

I think it is....but the problem is that there are millions of Muslims who [I]think it isn't[/I ] and don't want it to be.

Democracy did not exist at the time of the Prophet and so we do not know how he would have approached it. We have to rely on Clerics to 'rule on the issue' .....I say three things:

1) Often these are hidebound idiots who live in the middle ages or before and don't in any case know what they're talking about.

2) Who says they have the right?

3) I don't care anyway - Islam says that each person can approach God alone with no need of an intermediary so who needs 'em?

Quote:
As long as it doesn't involve to defy God's direct commandments, I'm fine with it.

But I guess it involves exactly that, basically his opinion is that everyone can become his own prophet, and I obviously disagree with that.

I think that is a misunderstanding. Obviously he would not be a Muslim if he believed that and he clearly is. See my point #3 above
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #108 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

That's a different question. Society needs regulating but that - imo - has no impact on one's spiritual position.

People are fond of asking these days "Is Islam compatible with democracy?"

I think it is....but the problem is that there are millions of Muslims who [I]think it isn't[/I ] and don't want it to be.

Democracy did not exist at the time of the Prophet and so we do not know how he would have approached it.

I don't think that Islam is compatible with democracy in the sense of the people being the souvereign. Sure in early Islam the leader was elected, but electing the leader is not the only element of democracy.

Democracy means that the people are the souvereign, that form laws. But what then about all the religious laws that God formed as the souvereign?

This is no different from christianity or judaism when put into the political sphere, they are incompatible to democracy when it comes to the principle of the people being the souvereign and forming laws.

Now one could try to make a compromise and let God be the souvereign over the laws He prescribed and let the people be souvereign over those He didn't prescribe.

The other option would be a seperation of religion and politics.
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post #109 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post

The other option would be a seperation of religion and politics.

Definitely the way to go
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #110 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Do they ever? Not sure I know of any examples outside of right-wing tabloids.

Again would depend on the 'freedom' wouldn't even if so?

I suppose if an immigrant emigrated to the deep south in the 50s and pointed out why segregation was bad he might also be 'restricting the freedoms of the native populace' etc etc

If something bad needs pointing out it doesn't matter who does it. I think you might have a problem when the immigrants bring their religion no?

You're missing the point about restricting freedoms. Don't play these semantics games with me of all people and don't treat me like I'm MJ or Trumpetman. You god damn well know that I believe very much in the rights of individual people and my track record on gay marriage, abortion, atheists, both current wars, and a myriad of other examples demonstrates this. So cut the crap, Sego.

I'm in no way defending someone's mythical right to oppress another group...to prevent someone from voting with terrible Jim Crow legislation is utterly absurd, abhorrent, and evil.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #111 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're missing the point about restricting freedoms. Don't play these semantics games with me of all people and don't treat me like I'm MJ or Trumpetman. You god damn well know that I believe very much in the rights of individual people and my track record on gay marriage, abortion, atheists, both current wars, and a myriad of other examples demonstrates this. So cut the crap, Sego.

I'm in no way defending someone's mythical right to oppress another group...to prevent someone from voting with terrible Jim Crow legislation is utterly absurd, abhorrent, and evil.

Relax man! Take it easy....

Just saying that immigrants have the right to come to a country and to point out things in that country which they think - and which may actually be - what we might call 'wrong'.

I know your track record but depriving immigrants of this right will play into the hands of people whose track record is of quite a different sort to yours.

That's all..... no offence intended......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #112 of 119
Just as long as you can see the other side of it...if intolerance has to be tolerated, all you need is numbers to turn a progressive society into an authoritative nightmare. If a bunch of Mormons from Utah decided to move to a less populous Northeastern state and establish dry counties there, I think that's bullshit. If the immigrants don't want alcohol, they don't have to buy it. Telling others they can't as well is wrong.

In reverse, if a bunch of semi-religious centrists moved to a dry county in the South and voted to overturn that law, that's fine. Those who still wish not to purchase alcohol can remain not purchasing alcohol.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #113 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

If a bunch of Mormons from Utah decided to move to a less populous Northeastern state and establish dry counties there, I think that's bullshit.

By what mechanism would they be able to achieve this?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #114 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Just as long as you can see the other side of it...if intolerance has to be tolerated, all you need is numbers to turn a progressive society into an authoritative nightmare. If a bunch of Mormons from Utah decided to move to a less populous Northeastern state and establish dry counties there, I think that's bullshit. If the immigrants don't want alcohol, they don't have to buy it. Telling others they can't as well is wrong.

In reverse, if a bunch of semi-religious centrists moved to a dry county in the South and voted to overturn that law, that's fine. Those who still wish not to purchase alcohol can remain not purchasing alcohol.

I agree with you in principle - and in practice probably but the current case re Muslims (and that is what 'immigrants' mean in Cameron's speech for example) is a bit more tricky.

Not because they are Muslims or have any higher status than other groups but because they are the ones now currently in the crosshairs.

The history of other and non-Western cultures in the West - specifically Europe - is one of persecution before assimilation (if that happens at all) and right now any such restriction (which I repeat I agree with in theory) is actually to hand power to racists, bigots and general wankers.

So I baulk a little at supporting it in the current climate because I don't trust:

a) our current leaders

b) the current mood of the populace

Nasty things are brewing....definitely in the UK and soon in the US which will soon see it's own variety with the Tea Party and perhaps even worse monstrosities.

Edit: btw: what I was actually questioning - and which we should also address - is the question I raised before "are immigrants moving in and trying to change things?"

I can speak only of the UK and Spain from personal experience but I can honestly say every example I have heard has turned out to be bullshit.

For example: every Xmas you get the "no Xmas trees because Muslims would be offended" routine in the tabloids. In all my knowledge of the Muslim community I have never, ever heard remotely of such a thing. It only exists in the tabloids. I did hear that once a COUNCIL decided to have no Xian Xmas decorations so as to be inclusive to all faiths (actually this is not far off what certain atheists want in the UK too) but in that case Muslims protested.

I just do not believe these stories have any basis in the UK. Another one: when I lived in London every corner shop in the area (and most others) was Muslim run. ALL sold alcohol with no problem. EVERY ONE. I never heard anything about it at all.

And further than that - with the exception of Iran and Saudi (which don't count for the following reason: any immigrants from there will be actively trying to embrace the West. You won't find anyone more Western than an Los Angeles Irani) all the countries they come from have a tradition, more or less, of inclusion.

You can buy alcohol anywhere in Syria - from Christians fine, but that is more inclusion - and Turkey and Jordan on and on. Where are these immigrants coming from who want to impose a culture that does not exist?

There is only one place I can think of and - yet again - it is closely linked to the stinking disgrace of Western Hypocrisy which allows this country (no points for guessing I'm afraid) to build mosques anywhere and spread their fundie doctrine unhindered and then blame it on communities that don't even believe in that sect.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #115 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

The problem with this view there is that there is essentially no dogma in Islam. Ie, the believer is free to believe - more or less - what he chooses.

This is not the case with Christianity. If one decides to worship the devil for example then one is no longer a Christian. However, Islam could accommodate such a thing - see the Yezidis for example.

My question then is if you have to believe 1. There is no god 2. except god. 3 Muhammed is a prophet of god, to be Muslim than how can you pick and choose what you believe..How can you worship the devil and continue to be Muslim? Just seems completely contradicting of itself.

If you can pick and choose what you want from the religion seems like it can't be a complete truth. I just don't understand how you can believe one thing is true and something else that you don't like is not true..If you can't accept it all then how can you know that what you do actually believe is true?
post #116 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbird5 View Post

My question then is if you have to believe 1. There is no god 2. except god. 3 Muhammed is a prophet of god, to be Muslim than how can you pick and choose what you believe..How can you worship the devil and continue to be Muslim? Just seems completely contradicting of itself.

Re your question about devil worship - I suppose it depends on what 'worship' is. Many Muslims worship many things: money, fame, Imams. It's not accepted as such but it is not the sin of ascribing a partner to God which would be the thing that takes someone out of Islam.

This book: The Tragedy of Satan explains beautifully Satan's tragedy:

That he refused to bow to anyone but God as he loved God so much he refused God's command to do so....and was thus the true model Muslim. One also has to realize that Satan in Islam is in no way the same figure as in Christianity.

Or try Yezidi Devil Worshippers of Iraq who are a form of Sufi Muslim but split off from the mainstream and perhaps not strictly Islamic.

Quote:
If you can pick and choose what you want from the religion seems like it can't be a complete truth. I just don't understand how you can believe one thing is true and something else that you don't like is not true..If you can't accept it all then how can you know that what you do actually believe is true?

It's a great question and one I have often had issues with and pondered. As of now I have one answer (might change in future): one connects in a religion with what speaks to one's inner self.

Some bits of a given religion might strike you as 'true' while others you might find offensive. It doesn't matter - especially if they contradict themselves. Is even better if this is the case because one must be false....you just choose which one you think is 'of God'.

For example: I heard today of a young Bangladeshi girl who was publicly flogged for adultery and died by bleeding to death.

Link

Now I don't ask myself "Is this Islam" I rather ask myself "is this something God would condone?" By this I mean my conception of God. And the answer is no - for me. It is 'yes' obviously for many Muslims (Nightcrawler seems to agree with the punishment at least in principle) and certainly many clerics promote it.

But I don't believe in a God like that and it contradicts enough other things in Islam and the life of Muhammad (though obviously many Muslims and others argue that both would promote exactly this) that I have a legitimate choice:

Choose the 'good' bits or choose the 'bad' bits like this example. You can't have both....some have been invented by men and corrupt the teaching obviously. There is no other conclusion.

So it is merely a question of whether God is a maniac or...well..God. I choose to believe the latter but there's always the possibilty I could be wrong. But we're all responsible for our own choices.

That's what Islam is all about: if you believe there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet you are a Muslim. No matter what else you do...you may get in trouble from up-tight maniacs but you are still a Muslim.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #117 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Choose the 'good' bits or choose the 'bad' bits like this example. You can't have both....some have been invented by men and corrupt the teaching obviously. There is no other conclusion.

So it is merely a question of whether God is a maniac or...well..God. I choose to believe the latter but there's always the possibilty I could be wrong. But we're all responsible for our own choices.

That's what Islam is all about: if you believe there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet you are a Muslim. No matter what else you do...you may get in trouble from up-tight maniacs but you are still a Muslim.

Haha I can I assure you we have never met...Although its a shame because you have a very interesting views...I come from a Christian background just trying to understand the thinking and the religion itself.

So basically what I gather is Islam can help you find the truth within yourself and reach so called "enlightenment" through self truth and spiritualness no matter the means the end is what is important?
post #118 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbird5 View Post

Haha I can I assure you we have never met...Although its a shame because you have a very interesting views...I come from a Christian background just trying to understand the thinking and the religion itself.

So basically what I gather is Islam can help you find the truth within yourself and reach so called "enlightenment" through self truth and spiritualness no matter the means the end is what is important?

Well...it depends....there are many hardliners in Islam who claim they have 'the truth' like any religion but even they have to agree that if one subscribes to the formula I mentioned then they are by definition a Muslim.

After that, well, I suppose their are arguments and different schools - some are very rigid and conservative and some are very loose. Many in the middle.

But the idea is that God in the end will decide who is right and we can't really know. But it says in the Qur'an that Jews, Christians and other religions will go to 'heaven' (I don't take heaven as a literal place which is ok I think) so it's probably a pretty wide catchment area hahah.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #119 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Re your question about devil worship - I suppose it depends on what 'worship' is. Many Muslims worship many things: money, fame, Imams. It's not accepted as such but it is not the sin of ascribing a partner to God which would be the thing that takes someone out of Islam.

This book: The Tragedy of Satan explains beautifully Satan's tragedy:

That he refused to bow to anyone but God as he loved God so much he refused God's command to do so....and was thus the true model Muslim. One also has to realize that Satan in Islam is in no way the same figure as in Christianity.

The quran describes iblis as the enemy of humanity, as the one that whoever follows his seductions and dies that way without repenting and returning to God's path will enter hell with the devil.

In the quran the act of not bowing to Adam was not described as being one done in love for God but done in jealousy of seeing God describing humans as more precious than his kind. Jealousy and pride which then led to rebellion were revealed by God's commandment to bow down before Adam.

That a sect decides to worship iblis despite the clear warnings against it in the Quran puts them beyond islam.



Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

For example: I heard today of a young Bangladeshi girl who was publicly flogged for adultery and died by bleeding to death.

Link

Now I don't ask myself "Is this Islam" I rather ask myself "is this something God would condone?" By this I mean my conception of God. And the answer is no - for me. It is 'yes' obviously for many Muslims (Nightcrawler seems to agree with the punishment at least in principle) and certainly many clerics promote it.

But I don't believe in a God like that and it contradicts enough other things in Islam and the life of Muhammad (though obviously many Muslims and others argue that both would promote exactly this) that I have a legitimate choice:

Choose the 'good' bits or choose the 'bad' bits like this example. You can't have both....some have been invented by men and corrupt the teaching obviously. There is no other conclusion.

Flogging for adultery by unmarried people is prescribed in the Quran, but it should not lead to death, so obviously this is a big tragedy and it should be investigated. After the flogging doctors should have seen to it that the punished one's wounds don't continue to bleed.
The flogging itself needs to be examined if the technique used is too harmful and readjusted.

The other aspect is if there were four witnesses or four confessions and then what about the married adulterer? His punishment should be death according to hadith.

The question is here if hadiths carry the same authority as the Quran or are they only legitimate as an additional explanation to the Quran and not to be used as a source for additional punishments... in that latter case, there is no death-punishment for married adulterers.
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