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Official Christian Thread! - Page 4

post #121 of 444
Yes, they are all bigots. However, the word that has been mistranslated as abomination actually means ritually unclean for Jews specifically. It was part of the section of the Bible laying out the separate rules god had for Jews.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #122 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yes, they are all bigots. However, the word that has been mistranslated as abomination actually means ritually unclean for Jews specifically. It was part of the section of the Bible laying out the separate rules god had for Jews.

That's true. And Jesus and Paul also specifically abrogated the laws for Jews and were categoric that they did not apply to Christians.

All Christians know this actually which is why they don't stone people who aren;t virgins on their wedding night, kill adulterers or execute people who have sex during the menstrual cycle.

So really, it is not logical = or even Scriptural? - to keep some of these old laws which have beeno over-ruled.

It would be different if the alleged teachings against gays were echoed in the New Testament or ny Jesus himself - but hey aren't.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #123 of 444
It's also the same reason that Camp David provided to me for his not keeping Kosher. So, someone wants to have it both ways. He wants to get out of dietary restrictions but not abject bigotry. Hmm...I think that reveals a character flaw more than anything else.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #124 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It's also the same reason that Camp David provided to me for his not keeping Kosher...

Perhaps we need an official Judaism thread; I don't think BR has a grasp on the obvious yet..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So, someone wants to have it both ways. He wants to get out of dietary restrictions but not abject bigotry. Hmm...I think that reveals a character flaw more than anything else.

We Christians do practice intense and devout prayer, penitence, almsgiving, and dietary self-denial during lent, but that may be beyond your elementary understanding methinks...
post #125 of 444
You are clearly not understanding that you were also relieved of the restrictions on homosexuality.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #126 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

The words of Jesus Christ himself, "They are no longer two, but one flesh" (Matthew 19:6a), with the reference to marriage - a father and a mother and procreation, deny the idea of a homosexual "couple" that you reference. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman and can be reserved for only that.

According to the gospel of Matthew, Jesus praised marriage between a man and a woman. How on Earth does that lead you to conclude that Jesus condemned marriage between one man and one man? Is this your logic? Once again you prove your complete ignorance of the concept. And you're using your ignorance to spread hatred. Which is NOT what Jesus would do if you have any understanding of his teachings. You, sir, are a failed Christian. Spreading false prophecy, which is SPECIFICALLY referred to in the Bible.

Amongst others:

"As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. "
-Galatians 1:9
post #127 of 444
Positive time!! (Could get you down couldn't it? )

Dallas Church adopts Gay-friendly stance

Quote:
A Dallas church has changed its website to identify itself as inclusive of varied sexual orientations -- a move that potentially could put the congregation at odds with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, which previously has excluded another church over its embrace of openly gay leaders.

A March 6 article in the Dallas Morning News characterized the move by Royal Lane Baptist Church as the congregation coming “out of the closet” regarding its quietly welcoming stance toward gays and lesbians -- including allowing them to fill church leadership positions such as deacons.

“In effect, this is a collective coming out about who we are and have been for a long time,” Ruth May, vice chair of deacons, told the newspaper, which identified her as a lesbian.

In keeping with the spirit of Christ I would say.

Actually though there ARE several pro-gay passages in the Bible that have been examined at length in pastor of the Jesus Metropolitan Community Church Rev. Jeff Miner's book The Children are Free: Reexamining the Biblical Evidence on Same-sex Relationships.

Miner shows numerous interesting examples - for example Ruth and Naomi's relationship:

Quote:
Ruth's covenant with Naomi, which includes the memorable phrase, "Wherever you go, I will go; wherever you live, I will live," actually refers to a committed same-sex relationship.

Another example where Jesus met a gay couple and did not discriminate at all or even comment - the healing of the centurion's servant in This story is recorded in Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10:

Quote:
In the original language, the importance of this story for gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians is much clearer. The Greek word used in Matthew’s account to refer to the servant of the centurion is pais. In the language of the time, pais had three possible meanings depending upon the context in which it was used. It could mean “son or boy;” it could mean “servant,” or it could mean a particular type of servant — one who was “his master’s male lover.” (See note 18.) Often these lovers were younger than their masters, even teenagers.

Would Jesus Discriminate?

And of course David and Jonathan who are well known as a gay couple and for which the evidence does not need repeating.

The Gnostic texts go even further with Jesus' attitudes in this regard but these have been excluded by the Church (though this does not invalidate them) so perhaps this is not the place to discuss them. Elements of them do survive in the accepted gospels though, for example the following from Mark 14:48-52:

Quote:
Then Jesus said to them sent to arrest him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest me as though I were a guerrilla? Day after day I was with you in the Temple teaching, and you did not arrest me. But let the scriptures be fulfilled.”

All of them deserted him and fled. A young man was following him, wearing nothing but a cloth. They caught hold of him, but he left the cloth and ran off naked

Oh and the classic Jesus quote which should really wrap this up as it is from THE MAN HIMSELF (or God Himself if you are that way inclined):

Quote:
“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Matthew 19:11-12

Actually this comment by Jesus FOLLOWS ON from the quote used above by Camp David - ie it is Jesus own comment on the original quote in the same place.

Quote:
In the ancient world, including ancient Jewish culture (as reflected in the Talmud), “natural” or “born” eunuchs were not associated with missing testicles. Rather, they were associated with stereotypically effeminate characteristics and behavior (just like modern gay men), and were thought by Rabbi Eliezer to be subject to “cure” (just like modern gays). Moreover, as we have also seen, eunuchs were commonly associated with homosexual desire. (For a complete discussion of the term "born eunuch" and the connection with homosexuality, see The Early Church Welcomed a Gay Man.) As a reasonably informed person of his time, Jesus would have been aware of this common view of eunuchs. Yet he very matter-of-factly asserts that some people are simply born that way. The implication of his statement is profound — God created gay people the way they are! Jesus says so.

Unlike Rabbi Eliezer, Jesus feels no need to “cure” these born eunuchs. He speaks no words of condemnation. Rather he lists people born gay alongside another honored class (eunuchs for the kingdom), and accepts them as a natural part of God’s creation order.

Source
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #128 of 444
Well researched, and well suported post, Sego. Definitely beats the conjecture of hatred some self-proclaimed "Christians" like to throw around.
post #129 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Well researched, and well suported post, Sego. Definitely beats the conjecture of hatred some self-proclaimed "Christians" like to throw around.

You know Tonton, if you think about what Christianity could have been it is really quite amazing. If Jesus had not been sequestered into the realms of deity then he would have been one of the most progressive and influential thinkers in history - all this 2000 years ago...is mind-blowing I think.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #130 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

According to the gospel of Matthew, Jesus praised marriage between a man and a woman. How on Earth does that lead you to conclude that Jesus condemned marriage between one man and one man? Is this your logic? Once again you prove your complete ignorance of the concept. And you're using your ignorance to spread hatred. Which is NOT what Jesus would do if you have any understanding of his teachings. You, sir, are a failed Christian. Spreading false prophecy, which is SPECIFICALLY referred to in the Bible.

Amongst others:

"As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. "
-Galatians 1:9

Well, if we are going to start quoting scripture, the Apostle Paul, a representative and witness of Jesus Christ, wrote:

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:26-27)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind" (1 Corinthians 6:9)

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

And Jude wrote:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

(emphasis mine)

Whether or not you agree with those scriptures is another matter, but we can see why there is much confusion and controversy over this issue.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #131 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Well, if we are going to start quoting scripture, the Apostle Paul, a representative and witness of Jesus Christ, wrote:

"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." (Romans 1:26-27)

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind" (1 Corinthians 6:9)

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

And Jude wrote:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)

(emphasis mine)

Whether or not you agree with those scriptures is another matter, but we can see why there is much confusion and controversy over this issue.

Yes, it's a question of the difference between Pauline Christianity and the teaching the Disciples received.

And there was a difference - they fell out over it which is significant.

Also the Bible is not a coherent whole - there are many books which were contenders for inclusion and the decision on WHAT to include was a late one conducted entirely by humans with all their bias and opinion.

Even then not all Christians accept the order and inclusion (or exclusion) of the books.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #132 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes, it's a question of the difference between Pauline Christianity and the teaching the Disciples received.

And there was a difference - they fell out over it which is significant.

Also the Bible is not a coherent whole - there are many books which were contenders for inclusion and the decision on WHAT to include was a late one conducted entirely by humans with all their bias and opinion.

Even then not all Christians accept the order and inclusion (or exclusion) of the books.

Indeed. We also don't know that we have complete documentation of the entirety of the teachings that the Disciples received. For all we know, Jesus could have discussed the matter at length with them and we have no record of it (yet).

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #133 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

According to the gospel of Matthew, Jesus praised marriage between a man and a woman. How on Earth does that lead you to conclude that Jesus condemned marriage between one man and one man?

Get thee to a Logic 101 class ASAP methinks... I do not believe God intended His human creation to "go forth and multiply" with two members of the same sex! Throughout history the pairing of the sexes, one man and one woman, was reserved for marriage while instances of perversion; i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah, were dealt with as perversion, in the example the two cities which were destroyed by God for the unforgivable sin within. The precedent within The Bible and within mankind's record reserve homosexuality as an abomination.
post #134 of 444
Nope, you should get theeself to Logic 101.

Quote:
2- Fallacy of denying the antecedent
If P, then Q example: If I locked my car, it won't be stolen
If not P, then not Q I did not lock my car, therefore it will be stolen

And there you go again using the mistranslation. Ritual uncleanliness for Jews specifically, not abomination.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #135 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Get thee to a Logic 101 class ASAP methinks... I do not believe God intended His human creation to "go forth and multiply" with two members of the same sex! Throughout history the pairing of the sexes, one man and one woman, was reserved for marriage while instances of perversion; i.e., Sodom and Gomorrah, were dealt with as perversion, in the example the two cities which were destroyed by God for the unforgivable sin within. The precedent within The Bible and within mankind's record reserve homosexuality as an abomination.

Sodom and Gomorrah were not actually punished for 'perversion' - this is something of a folk-myth.

Ezekiel is quite clear:

Quote:
This was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness ... neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

The fact is that for the 1700 years before the Christian era that the Sodom story existed in the Jewish sources, these Jewish sources never equated Sodom's sin with sexuality but with inhospitality to strangers and greed - the Ezekiel passage is an example.

Quote:
Classical Jewish texts are seen by many as not stressing the homosexual aspect of the attitude of the inhabitants of Sodom as much as their cruelty and lack of hospitality to the "stranger."

The Jewish Encyclopaedia has information on the importance of hospitality to the Jewish people. The people of Sodom were seen as guilty of many other significant sins. Rabbinic writings affirm that the Sodomites also committed economic crimes, blasphemy and bloodshed.

One of the worst was to give money or even gold ingots to beggars, after inscribing their names on them, and then subsequently refusing to sell them food. The unfortunate stranger would end up starving and after his death, the people who gave him the money would reclaim it.

A rabbinic tradition, described in the Mishnah, postulates that the sin of Sodom was related to property: Sodomites believed that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" (Abot), which is interpreted as a lack of compassion. Another rabbinic tradition is that these two wealthy cities treated visitors in a sadistic fashion. One major crime done to strangers was almost identical to that of Procrustes in Greek mythology. This would be the story of the "bed" that guests to Sodom were forced to sleep in: if they were too short they were stretched to fit it, and if they were too tall, they were cut up.

Josephus - who many Christians regard as reliable - also held this view:

Quote:
Flavius Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian, wrote something along the lines of:

Now, about this time the Sodomites, overwhelmingly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and avoided any contact with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance, and not only to uproot their city, but to blast their land so completely that it should yield neither plant nor fruit whatsoever from that time forward.

Jewish Antiquities 1:194-195

Wiki
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #136 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Sodomites believed that "what is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" (Abot), which is interpreted as a lack of compassion.

Wow... those Sodomites... I'm really sorry to say this, but this is Political Outsider afterall... sound a lot like a good number of Republicans and Libertarians.
post #137 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Wow... those Sodomites... I'm really sorry to say this, but this is Political Outsider afterall... sound a lot like a good number of Republicans and Libertarians.

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #138 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Sodom and Gomorrah were not actually punished for 'perversion' - this is something of a folk-myth.

Denial of what is plain is also a sin of the wicked. We need not apologize for the wickedness of perversion; only recognize it as so.

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked."
2nd Peter 2:6,7.
post #139 of 444
I think the scriptures make it pretty clear that homosexuality was indeed a part of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 19:4-7

Quote:
But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

I think we all understand what the word "know" means in this context, especially when we see the use of it in the next verse:

Quote:
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

But yes, as segovius stated, there was more to it, as shown in that passage from Ezekiel. Sodom and Gomorrah had not only participated in sexual immorality, but they had become selfish and rejected those in need.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #140 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Denial of what is plain is also a sin of the wicked. We need not apologize for the wickedness of perversion; only recognize it as so.

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked."
2nd Peter 2:6,7.

The trouble is though is that you are not understanding what all this is about. When you are correct then I for one will say so.... when you have it wrong people will point it out. Not to be superior but because we are learning from each other.

Now in this vein, you have quoted a fact there and you are correct - absolutely correct.

The fact you are correct about it this: that the passage says:

the licentious conduct of unprincipled people

Now let's look at what if does NOT say and what we CANNOT assume as facts:

1) It does not say what this behaviour was - just that it was bad or licentious.

2) It does not relate it in any way to gay issues

3) We cannot know where the writer of Peter got his ideas - for sure it must have been in some record as the event was 1700 years previous. It is highly unlikely he drew on 1st hand accounts (as none existed) and perhaps he relied on an oral tradition.

An equivalent would be you commenting on Beowulf. Not even the original but an interpretation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a version or a folk-tale retold oral story differing from the original in all respects.

4) Even given the above there is no evidence at all it is remotely 'true'.

Now that's ok. If you BELIEVE it is (as you are entitled to) then you could spend years trying to prove it. And maybe succeed. Who knows? Would be a noble effort either way.

What is NOT noble - or helpful imo is to say that so and so said X when he said no such thing or that y = Z when we know for sure that all y equals is y.

Let's just play with a straight bat and all will be well!!
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #141 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think the scriptures make it pretty clear that homosexuality was indeed a part of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

No-one is doubting that the men in the story wanted to have sex with the visitors - that's obvious but the question is more: was this the crime that was punished?

It seems not. It seems that the offence there was inhospitality to visitors.

It's like if a gay guy robs someone and then ends up on trial....it's not about whether he's gay is it? Though hundreds of years later people with a homophobic outlook might want to make it look like that and could possibly slant it that way.

And when enough time has passed and the records are obscure they might make other people believe it too.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #142 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

No-one is doubting that the men in the story wanted to have sex with the visitors - that's obvious but the question is more: was this the crime that was punished?

It seems not. It seems that the offence there was inhospitality to visitors.

It's like if a gay guy robs someone and then ends up on trial....it's not about whether he's gay is it? Though hundreds of years later people with a homophobic outlook might want to make it look like that and could possibly slant it that way.

And when enough time has passed and the records are obscure they might make other people believe it too.

Again, the passage in Jude:

Quote:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #143 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Again, the passage in Jude:

Yes but some people interpret the 'strange flesh' as the fact the men were angels.

Thus the crime was not being gay but trying to rape God's attendants.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #144 of 444
If you believe ...

Waiting for attacks from our "Christian" friends.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #145 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

If you believe ...

Waiting for attacks from our "Christian" friends.

Great link!! good stuff....

Why do you think they would attack?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #146 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Great link!! good stuff....

Why do you think they would attack?

The trumpty's and SDW and Common Men here HATE everything that would make a dent in the oil business. Even if it's against their own religion. Read some of their posts attacking me for making $ from my green investments and using gov incentives to curb greenhouse gases. These guys hate the idea of changing for the better. They love their reps apologizing to BP for being forced to help small business. One guy thinks Caterpillar is a "small business". They refuse to even consider the fact that global warming is real. They pray to keep things the way they are god says burn more coal...... They believe the oil spill was a BP Obama conspiracy .... WTF
You think they could use their religion for something positive?

Saving the environment will bring peace, so thinks the pope
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #147 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

The trumpty's and SDW and Common Men here HATE everything that would make a dent in the oil business. Even if it's against their own religion. Read some of their posts attacking me for making $ from my green investments and using gov incentives to curb greenhouse gases. These guys hate the idea of changing for the better. They love their reps apologizing to BP for being forced to help small business. One guy thinks Caterpillar is a "small business". They refuse to even consider the fact that global warming is real. They pray to keep things the way they are god says burn more coal...... They believe the oil spill was a BP Obama conspiracy .... WTF
You think they could use their religion for something positive?

Saving the environment will bring peace, so thinks the pope

Seems a strange point of view - I mean if someone believes God created the Earth then surely that means it should be looked after all the more no?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #148 of 444
If you can twist your mind to believe in the christian god, you can twist it to believe in pretty much any wacky thing.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #149 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

. They believe the oil spill was a BP Obama conspiracy ....

I do not think this Christian thread and Obama are compatible...
post #150 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I do not think this Christian thread and Obama are compatible...

Not surprised. More than likely, you think Obama is a Muslim.
post #151 of 444
Another positive note:

In accordance with Jesus' admonition to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sick and afflicted, and generally serve our fellow men, many Christian churches and organizations have been able to do a great deal of good around the world.

I invite you to look into some of the things the Latter-day Saints have done and are doing in this area.

http://www.providentliving.org

2009 Welfare Fact Sheet

Latter-day Saint Charities

Appropriately enough, today is "Fast Sunday" for Mormons. The first Sunday of each month we abstain from eating or drinking for 2 consecutive meals and donate the money we would have spent on those meals to help those in need.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #152 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Yes but some people interpret the 'strange flesh' as the fact the men were angels.

Thus the crime was not being gay but trying to rape God's attendants.

Well that's just it. So many different interpretations of the Bible exist. I believe it is important to know which of all those interpretations are true.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #153 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Well that's just it. So many different interpretations of the Bible exist. I believe it is important to know which of all those interpretations are true.

Exactly, I agree wholeheartedly!!

However, many things may not be provable - and those that are MUST be subject to logic and rationality imo.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #154 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Not surprised. More than likely, you think Obama is a Muslim.

Since he supports abortion he is evidently not a Christian. Let's start there.
post #155 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Well that's just it. So many different interpretations of the Bible exist. I believe it is important to know which of all those interpretations are true.

Oh, you mean how abomination is a mistranslation and Christians should stop being bigots? I'm glad you agree.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #156 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Since he supports abortion he is evidently not a Christian. Let's start there.

Or shall we start with your failure to grasp the science behind abortion?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #157 of 444
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or shall we start with your failure to grasp the science behind abortion?

Science behind abortion? Is that parallel to science behind murder? Nonetheless, let's look at Christian belief here; most beliefs within the Christian faiths, as well as the faithful, believe abortion to be wrong and the Christian faith strongly prohibits it. So whether or not you're trying to tie this to science, the practice is forbidden by practicing Christians Thus, for someone to claim being Christian, while supporting abortion, would not be right.
post #158 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Another positive note:

In accordance with Jesus' admonition to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sick and afflicted, and generally serve our fellow men, many Christian churches and organizations have been able to do a great deal of good around the world.

I invite you to look into some of the things the Latter-day Saints have done and are doing in this area.

http://www.providentliving.org

2009 Welfare Fact Sheet

Latter-day Saint Charities

Appropriately enough, today is "Fast Sunday" for Mormons. The first Sunday of each month we abstain from eating or drinking for 2 consecutive meals and donate the money we would have spent on those meals to help those in need.

Aren't you supposed to teach them how to fish?

If you would finance solar panel for shelters you would give to them for decades. Plus every first sunday of the month. You guys could really be so much more effective in helping other people by smarter investment of your donations. This would not only help people but it would please god with a capital g.
yes I want oil genocide.
Reply
yes I want oil genocide.
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post #159 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Since he supports abortion he is evidently not a Christian. Let's start there.

Yeah, since abortion is specifically referred to in the Bible.

And Obama does not "support" abortion. That is a lie. Obama supports choice. There is a difference. Jesus would support choice too.

And for your information, Christians are followers of the teachings of Christ. Not the teachings of a particular pastor or particular church organization or a particular Pope. Tell me where allowing a woman to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy is not "Christian", according to the teachings of Christ. I'm waiting.
post #160 of 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Another positive note:

In accordance with Jesus' admonition to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sick and afflicted, and generally serve our fellow men, many Christian churches and organizations have been able to do a great deal of good around the world.

I invite you to look into some of the things the Latter-day Saints have done and are doing in this area.

Meanwhile, the massive taxes collected by the LDS Church have also been used to build luxurious castles for themselves.

Yes, taxes can pay for stuff people need, and can be used for corruption as well. In Government and in the Church alike.
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