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post #161 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, since abortion is specifically referred to in the Bible.

Note for tonton: At your soonest convenience check wording of sixth commandment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And Obama does not "support" abortion. That is a lie. Obama supports choice. There is a difference.p

Does the baby he advocates the death of have a choice? Does the father of the baby have a choice? So what is this choice of which you speak? Moreover, the term "choice" is a euphemism the abortion lobby developed to draw attention away from the word "abort" they advocate. The baby they advocate killing has no choice; and yes Obama was the most pro-abortion senator, while he held that position, in the US Senate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Jesus would support choice too.

Taking that comedy act on the road?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

And for your information, Christians are followers of the teachings of Christ. Not the teachings of a particular pastor or particular church organization or a particular Pope. Tell me where allowing a woman to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy is not "Christian", according to the teachings of Christ. I'm waiting.

Again... check wording of sixth commandment; it is quite specific and not inclusive of "choice" in any connotation. More to the point, the Christian faith is quite outspoken in its prohibition of abortion. Don't try to interject "choice" as some alternative...
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post #162 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Aren't you supposed to teach them how to fish?

If you would finance solar panel for shelters you would give to them for decades. Plus every first sunday of the month. You guys could really be so much more effective in helping other people by smarter investment of your donations. This would not only help people but it would please god with a capital g.

Apparently you didn't look at the links I provided.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #163 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Note for tonton: At your soonest convenience check wording of sixth commandment.

Here we go again...
You defined a fetus as a human life. Neither Jesus nor the Bible did that. Other definitions are possible. Not only fetuses, but embryos and even gametes are included in your definition of a "baby". Once again your beliefs (not the Bible or the teachings of Jesus, have you) go against well-established scientific consensus.
Quote:
Does the baby he advocates the death of have a choice? Moreover, the term "choice" is a euphemism the abortion lobby developed to draw attention away from the word "abort" they advocate. The baby they advocate killing has no choice;

Not only do you use your own definition of "baby", but you clearly do not understand the meaning of the word "Advocate".
Once again, you have defined your own "Christianity" that is in no way based on the teachings of Christ.
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post #164 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Meanwhile, the massive taxes collected by the LDS Church have also been used to build luxurious castles for themselves.

Yes, taxes can pay for stuff people need, and can be used for corruption as well. In Government and in the Church alike.

The principle of tithing is well documented in scripture, as is the practice of building temples or tabernacles.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #165 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The principle of tithing is well documented in scripture, as is the practice of building temples or tabernacles.


But is this a "Christian" temple, keeping within good "Christian" spirit?
How about this?

Meanwhile, are government taxes stealing but Church taxes are aok?
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post #166 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:38pm
Why We Build Temples

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #167 of 444
8/1/10 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Why We Build Temples

Yes, but why is the extravagant excess necessary? Don't you think you carry it too far? And surely if the temples are for the good of all, then all should be welcome, not just to visit (and be proselytized) but to share in all the facilities and other fruits of the Church's labor (tithing) in the name of God?

The magnificence of the Mormon Temples is nothing short of hoarding.
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post #168 of 444
8/1/10 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yes, but why is the extravagant excess necessary? Don't you think you carry it too far? And surely if the temples are for the good of all, then all should be welcome, not just to visit (and be proselytized) but to share in all the facilities and other fruits of the Church's labor (tithing) in the name of God?

The magnificence of the Mormon Temples is nothing short of hoarding.

I'm sorry you see it that way.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #169 of 444
8/1/10 at 7:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Here we go again... You defined a fetus as a human life. Neither Jesus nor the Bible did that.

Check the wording, in the Christian Bible, of the Immaculate Conception, wherein Mary is acknowledged as carrying a life, of our Lord, from the first visit of the Holy Spirit. This proves your point incorrect - based on Scripture. Moreover, the current Church, recognizes life from conception onward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Other definitions are possible. Not only fetuses, but embryos and even gametes are included in your definition of a "baby".

You need to footnote to a source here for your allegation; I do not recognize what Church you reference. None within the Christian faith, and certainly no Catholic or Protestant, believe or support abortion in any capacity, or the "choice" referenced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Once again, you have defined your own "Christianity" that is in no way based on the teachings of Christ.

Please cite any Scripture to back up your point, or withdraw. The teachings of Christ are quite clear on the innocence and protection of the unborn.
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post #170 of 444
8/1/10 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Check the wording, in the Christian Bible, of the Immaculate Conception, wherein Mary is acknowledged as carrying a life, of our Lord, from the first visit of the Holy Spirit. This proves your point incorrect - based on Scripture. Moreover, the current Church, recognizes life from conception onward.

We'll get to this in a minute... but first:
Quote:
You need to footnote to a source here for your allegation; I do not recognize what Church you reference. None within the Christian faith, and certainly no Catholic or Protestant, believe or support abortion in any capacity, or the "choice" referenced.

Try this link and learn a little. Even if you disagree with the assesment of the stance of certain groups in that list, it is clear that there are many mainline Christian groups that do support choice, and that the debate is by no means settled. So now that you know the truth, you can no longer spread that particular lie.

Here's a specific example from another link that you would be hard-pressed to dispute:

The United Methodist Church began in the early 1970s to view abortion as a "choice". The United Methodist position in favor of abortion has been so strong that two of its institutions helped organize and affiliate with the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights. For many years RCAR used office space in the United Methodist Building which is located across the street from the U.S. Supreme Court. In both 1996 and 1997 the United Methodist Church publicly supported President Clinton’s veto of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act. While the 1996 United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline still maintains a strong pro-abortion position, it now includes wording recognizing the "sanctity of unborn human life." It further states, "We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection."


To clarify, from Wikipedia:
The United Methodist Church (UMC) is a Methodist Christian denomination which is both mainline and evangelical...
In the United States, it ranks as the largest mainline denomination, the second largest Protestant church after the Southern Baptist Convention, and the third largest Christian denomination. As of 2007, worldwide membership was about 12 million: 8.0 million in the United States and Canada, 3.5 million in Africa, Asia and Europe....
...the Church recognizes the legal right of the mother to choose after proper consideration of all options with medical, pastoral and other counsel, and emphasizes the need to be in supportive ministry with all women, regardless of their choice.

And among various denominations there is debate:
Catholics for Choice

Now...
Quote:
Please cite any Scripture to back up your point, or withdraw. The teachings of Christ are quite clear on the innocence and protection of the unborn.

Again, the debate is far from settled. There is plenty of scripture that defines the moment of life as that in which the first breath is given by God:

Try this.

Actually, I think you haven't even studied the Bible. You only seem to be aware of conjecture.
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post #171 of 444
8/1/10 at 10:33pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Note for tonton: At your soonest convenience check wording of sixth commandment.

What does abortion have to do with the sabbath?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #172 of 444
8/2/10 at 1:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Yeah, since abortion is specifically referred to in the Bible.

And Obama does not "support" abortion. That is a lie. Obama supports choice. There is a difference. Jesus would support choice too.

And for your information, Christians are followers of the teachings of Christ. Not the teachings of a particular pastor or particular church organization or a particular Pope. Tell me where allowing a woman to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy is not "Christian", according to the teachings of Christ. I'm waiting.

Actually abortion and infanticide were legal under Roman law at the time of Jesus.

You would expect some comment from him on the issue I think if indeed he intended people to follow injunctions he laid down.

The fact there is none is significant.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #173 of 444
8/2/10 at 2:03am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Or maybe because everything in the Bible is written a generation or more after the alleged events, the clever writers didn't exactly know all the details and either made everything up, passed along stories that changed over time, or put their own spin on whatever truth there may have been.

But working under the framework that the bible contains the directives of one Jesus El Saviorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Christ, ya the omission is pretty telling.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #174 of 444
8/2/10 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Here's a specific example from another link that you would be hard-pressed to dispute

I dispute it with the majority of Christians against abortion; of course you can find some whacko schism sect that wants to support killing babies! I suppose you could also cite a coven of witches that wants to use fetus to add to their cauldron and cite them too. Are they the huge majority of the faith against abortion? Hardly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...the Church recognizes the legal right of the mother to choose after proper consideration of all options with medical, pastoral and other counsel, and emphasizes the need to be in supportive ministry with all women, regardless of their choice.

I really need to validate these United Methodist Church cites you're posting since our local Methodists are more vocal than us Christians AGAINST abortion. Yet, I am aware that the United Methodist Church began, in the early 1970s, to view abortion as a "choice" yet their support for life in Scripture was also advocated so they never squared that apparent circle. A quick check on-line of the various Christian churches found strong anti-abortion policies from The Episcopal Church, The Roman Catholic Church, The Presbyterian Church, The American Baptist Churches, The Southern Baptist Convention, The Lutheran Church, and the smaller Independent Bible Churches and Evangelical Churches, so I think your reference to United Methodist points to a schism movement of progressives within that may turn to "choice" but they can't square that "choice" with Scripture against the taking of a life, a widespread Christian belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Catholics for Choice

You can find whack job movements for everything; NRA Members for Gun Control, for example. By and large most Catholics are against abortion, in every instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

...Again, the debate is far from settled.

You need to read more; your novice approach here denotes someone unfamiliar with the topic at hand and you seem willing to go along with the progressive talking points without knowledge with the issues. There is far less support for abortion now than there ever was and we will see a day when it is banned as a procedure of murder - infanticide - advocated by the state. No respectable faith can permit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually abortion and infanticide were legal under Roman law at the time of Jesus.

So were crucifixions... you for those too?
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post #175 of 444
8/2/10 at 5:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

So were crucifixions... you for those too?

I don't subscribe to the belief that if you point something out then it means you support it and by extension something else vaguely contemporary with it that is not under discussion.

It was an example of things Jesus did not oppose that existed and as such crucifixion is another classic example: he could have opposed it.

Even on the cross he could have denounced it. If not for himself then for one of the thieves....he did not.

Besides, it is my understanding that the death penalty - ie State Execution - is something it is possible to support and still be a Christian...in fact the vast majority of Christians do support it in my experience.

Is therefore your objection to the method?

I don't understand this though.... you seem to be against stoning, have been vociferous in that, but this is Biblical in origin. In fact it is commanded.

So is it the death penalty you object to? Or the methods? I don't get it.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #176 of 444
8/2/10 at 6:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

I don't subscribe to the belief that if you point something out then it means you support it and by extension something else vaguely contemporary with it that is not under discussion.

Your exact post was as follows=>

Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Actually abortion and infanticide were legal under Roman law at the time of Jesus.

It is to that for which I took exception. Let's advance the inquiry then. Did Roman law allow abortions; i.e., make them legal? Cite please. If as you say Roman law allowed them did it make conventions for them? Cite please.

Larger problem here is that you seem to stretching leagues or miles here; trying to make an unbelievable case that 1) abortions took place in Rome, 2) Jesus was in Rome, therefore 3) Jesus must have approved of abortions. Is that your argument? Because if it is it sounds suspiciously like a logical failure of the classic kind. Moreover, what may have happened via "Roman law" should not guide what we do now - I am one of those that likes to think we became more civilized in 2,000 years but that's just me!

Speaking of Scripture here; Christ's own words, "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me" was often cited by Mother Teresa of Calcutta as the obverse; "Whatever you did unto one of the least you did unto me." In each instance, we see here words relating to the issue of abortion and responsibility for the unborn that is placed on adults; to wit, one cannot ever justify, on convenience of the mother alone, abortion of a child.
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post #177 of 444
8/2/10 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

I dispute it with the majority of Christians against abortion; of course you can find some whacko schism sect that wants to support killing babies! I suppose you could also cite a coven of witches that wants to use fetus to add to their cauldron and cite them too. Are they the huge majority of the faith against abortion? Hardly!

I really need to validate these United Methodist Church cites you're posting since our local Methodists are more vocal than us Christians AGAINST abortion. Yet, I am aware that the United Methodist Church began, in the early 1970s, to view abortion as a "choice" yet their support for life in Scripture was also advocated so they never squared that apparent circle. A quick check on-line of the various Christian churches found strong anti-abortion policies from The Episcopal Church, The Roman Catholic Church, The Presbyterian Church, The American Baptist Churches, The Southern Baptist Convention, The Lutheran Church, and the smaller Independent Bible Churches and Evangelical Churches, so I think your reference to United Methodist points to a schism movement of progressives within that may turn to "choice" but they can't square that "choice" with Scripture against the taking of a life, a widespread Christian belief.

You can find whack job movements for everything; NRA Members for Gun Control, for example. By and large most Catholics are against abortion, in every instance.

You need to read more; your novice approach here denotes someone unfamiliar with the topic at hand and you seem willing to go along with the progressive talking points without knowledge with the issues. There is far less support for abortion now than there ever was and we will see a day when it is banned as a procedure of murder - infanticide - advocated by the state. No respectable faith can permit it.

So were crucifixions... you for those too?

I'm going to write my response here, rather than validate your ignorant arguments by responding to them one by one.

First, you've moved the goalposts. Your exact words were...

"None within the Christian faith, and certainly no Catholic or Protestant, believe or support abortion in any capacity, or the "choice" referenced. "

I pointed out the fact that largest mainstream church in America officially supports choice. You then said, "but... but... but... here the Methodists oppose it!"

Face it. You were wrong.

And then you asked for specific scripture that supports the theory that "life" doesn't come at the point of conception. I gave that to you too. You didn't even respond to that, instead, pretty much saying that I was ignorant... get this... this is the hilarious part... because...

"There is far less support for abortion now than there ever was..."

If it's the word of God, shouldn't the stance have been consistent? That Christianity's point of view with regard to abortion is changing, right now, is proof positive that that point of view is the point of view of man, not of the Bible.
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post #178 of 444
8/2/10 at 6:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I pointed out the fact that largest mainstream church in America officially supports choice...

If you're going to stretch the truth try to do so more convincingly. Kindly provide an authoritative cite that shows (1) the United Methodist sect you cited is anywhere mainstream, (2) that shows the United Methodist sect you cited is anywhere the largest, and (3) that the "choice" you cited is supported by the majority of parishioners within the United Methodist Church? The links you pointed to previously do none of this. More often than not, Christians showing sympathy toward pregnant single mothers and offering alternatives toward abortion, as Christians are want to do, are portrayed in the progressive press as showing sympathy toward "choice," wherein the reality of the situation is that Christians, and that would include United Methodists, advance alternatives to include adoption as a direct means to avoid abortion, not to favor it with "choice" as you suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That Christianity's point of view with regard to abortion is changing, right now, is proof positive that that point of view is the point of view of man, not of the Bible.

Fewer abortion doctors, less support for abortion internationally, and changing laws in states and nations for condemning it outright. What you are citing is actually society itself (secular) laws moving against abortion. In terms of Christianity, Holy Mother Church, has not changed an inch against abortion.
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post #179 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

If you're going to stretch the truth try to do so more convincingly. Kindly provide an authoritative cite that shows (1) the United Methodist sect you cited is anywhere mainstream, (2) that shows the United Methodist sect you cited is anywhere the largest, and (3) that the "choice" you cited is supported by the majority of parishioners within the United Methodist Church?

Did you even read the Wikipedia article? It is not a sect of UMC that supports choice! It is the whole church that supports choice as officially published policy!
Not only that, your demand #3 is totally irrelevant and asinine. It makes no difference whether the majority of parishioners support choice. It is officially supported by the church organization, in black-and-white.
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The links you pointed to previously do none of this.

As I pointed out, you're wrong.
Quote:
More often than not, Christians showing sympathy toward pregnant single mothers and offering alternatives toward abortion, as Christians are want to do, are portrayed in the progressive press as showing sympathy toward "choice," wherein the reality of the situation is that Christians, and that would include United Methodists, advance alternatives to include adoption as a direct means to avoid abortion, not to favor it with "choice" as you suggest.

Come on, no one has made such a claim, at all. This is the official policy of the church:

...the Church recognizes the legal right of the mother to choose after proper consideration of all options with medical, pastoral and other counsel, and emphasizes the need to be in supportive ministry with all women, regardless of their choice.

You can't spin that and claim the church doesn't support choice.
Quote:
Fewer abortion doctors, less support for abortion internationally, and changing laws in states and nations for condemning it outright. What you are citing is actually society itself (secular) laws moving against abortion. In terms of Christianity, Holy Mother Church, has not changed an inch against abortion.

Then what the hell was your point about there being more opposition to choice than evah? Was it relevant at all to the discussion, considering what you just said?

The entire basis of your argument is conjecture, conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. As if anyone should just "know" that you can't be Christian and support choice.
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post #180 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:07am
I found this today and thought it was cool enough to share here..

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...-and-faith/?hp

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #181 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

This is the official policy of the church:

...the Church recognizes the legal right of the mother to choose after proper consideration of all options with medical, pastoral and other counsel, and emphasizes the need to be in supportive ministry with all women, regardless of their choice.

What you citing here simply recognizes secular law at present, not Church law against abortion. Where is the word "abortion" in what you cite above? Recognizing the existence of secular law has always been something faiths do as a matter of course; sermons issued weekly are provided to draw close distinctions when Church law clash with Secular laws. Lastly, the euphemism you advance, "choice," is vague and you are steering this vagueness as advocacy for abortion. It is not. Choice often and more likely means open adoptions in variance to abortion for Christians.

Try to be more honest with what you post. The "official policy" with most Christian Churches is opposition to abortion, as it has been.
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post #182 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Lastly, the euphemism you advance, "choice," is vague and you are steering this vagueness as advocacy for abortion.

No, clearly, you've done that.

There is no one in the USA who "advocates" abortion. Not me, not Obama, not Planned Parenthood, no one. You made that up to make "choice" sound worse than it is. All of us want fewer abortions to occur. Every single one.

I've posted official church policy and you've denied it, despite it being there for you in plain English. The UMC Church recognizes a woman's right to choose, as per the law, and does not consider a woman who has chosen to abort for whatever reason to not be a "Christian".

I'm done with you. You presented with facts, including scripture, when you ask for it, and you ignore, deny or obfuscate, returning only conjecture and unrelated points. You are simply not a worthy person to argue with about this, as you will never argue using facts and logic, or recognize facts and logic in an argument. You are exactly what's wrong with far too many self-proclaimed "Christians", especially in the US. Christianity, as Segovius points out, has so much potential to be far greater for the good of the world were it not for people who draw everything they know from conjecture.
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post #183 of 444
8/2/10 at 8:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

There is no one in the USA who "advocates" abortion. Not me, not Obama, not Planned Parenthood, no one.

Actually you're wrong here too... While the National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) gives Obama a 100% score on his pro-abortion stands and his advocacy for even late term abortion while a senator (see link for his legislative record here). Planned Parenthood clinics in Iowa are openly advocating (read: counseling women for) abortion as recent NYT article depicted:

Abortion Drugs Given in Iowa via Video Link
By MONICA DAVEY
Published: June 8, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/he...KSUsTPHKzGNAOg

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You made that up to make "choice" sound worse than it is. All of us want fewer abortions to occur. Every single one.

That's not true either. If the pro-abortion lobby wanted fewer abortions they would be in favor of making them harder to acquire and the truth of the matter is that abortion advocates (Obama, NARAL, and Planned Parenthood among others) fight to extend abortion rights to all and make them easier to obtain, which is quite far from your claim of wanting fewer to occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I've posted official church policy and you've denied it

No; as I explained you clearly misunderstood UMC Church recognition of secular law and assumed this instance advocated support of "choice" within its congregation while ignoring the far larger and long-standing Christian opposition to abortion within most churches. Moreover, since this is the official Christian thread, in fairness to those trying to learn from it, it is necessary to so state that support for abortion is not "official church policy" in any Christian (or Protestant/ Episcopal bishopric or Catholic diocese) doctrine.
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post #184 of 444
8/2/10 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

So were crucifixions... you for those too?

Crucifixion is a punishment for breaking laws, implemented by law enforcement. Abortion is:
a) A natural way of population control in the animal kingdom
b) An elective or life saving medical procedure

Another A+ for ignorance, you are head of class.

If Jesus life began at conception, why celebrate Christmas and not God Fukced Mary day?
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #185 of 444
8/2/10 at 9:11am
It is truly wonderful what we can do with words to make things seem less bad.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #186 of 444
8/2/10 at 9:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Abortion is: a) A natural way of population control...

If it was in any way natural as you outrageously state why the need for abortion clinics where it is artificially induced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

b) An elective or life saving medical procedure

Never heard of a single child saved with this procedure in the entire history of humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

If Jesus life began at conception, why celebrate Christmas...

I deleted the obscene latter part of your post, but since your claim of misunderstanding cries out for explanation, the Roman Catholic Church, as well as other select Christian churches, typically celebrate a series of feast days, in sequence, 8th December, a holy day of obligation to Catholics, as commemorating the Immaculate Conception of Mary the Mother of God (in reference to your post), while 25 December, the traditional birth of Jesus, and 6 January or thereabouts the Epiphany or revelation of God in human form in the person of Jesus Christ.
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post #187 of 444
8/2/10 at 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Meanwhile, are government taxes stealing but Church taxes are aok?

Please...

I find these temples to be highly hypocritical, but... how many folks have been sent to prison for not tithing to a church? (ok... in modern society )

"church taxes" are completely voluntary... government taxes are fairly mandatory.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #188 of 444
8/2/10 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

Please...

I find these temples to be highly hypocritical, but... how many folks have been sent to prison for not tithing to a church? (ok... in modern society )

"church taxes" are completely voluntary... government taxes are fairly mandatory.

At least in the US.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #189 of 444
8/2/10 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

If it was in any way natural as you outrageously state why the need for abortion clinics where it is artificially induced?



Never heard of a single child saved with this procedure in the entire history of humanity.



I deleted the obscene latter part of your post, but since your claim of misunderstanding cries out for explanation, the Roman Catholic Church, as well as other select Christian churches, typically celebrate a series of feast days, in sequence, 8th December, a holy day of obligation to Catholics, as commemorating the Immaculate Conception of Mary the Mother of God (in reference to your post), while 25 December, the traditional birth of Jesus, and 6 January or thereabouts the Epiphany or revelation of God in human form in the person of Jesus Christ.

Animal kingdom abortions are a natural occurrance induced by malnutrition and/or overpopulation of a habitat.....!!
In humans we call them miscarriages. A++ for ignorance you are killing it today! Best of class!!

Yeah a mother's/woman's life is not a "life" in your opinion. You are a Muslim fascist. Good to know.

If you are willing to pay for every child a mother wanted to abort but carries full term and you agree to teach masturbation and protection in the 4th grade I'll go with outlawing abortion.

december 8 ..?? Jan 6 (3 kings day)...???
How about March 24..???
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #190 of 444
8/2/10 at 10:30am
Aren't false choices fun?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #191 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

"church taxes" are completely voluntary... government taxes are fairly mandatory.

Bullshit. You have the same exact choices with the LDS church and the government. You're making good income but don't want to tithe to LDS? Your only choice is to leave the church. You have taxable income but don't want to pay taxes to the US Government? You have the simple choice of leaving the US. I'm not talking about other churches here. I'm talking about the LDS, where tithing is mandatory so that they can evangelize around the world and build castles.
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post #192 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Bullshit. You have the same exact choices with the LDS church and the government. You're making good income but don't want to tithe to LDS? Your only choice is to leave the church. You have taxable income but don't want to pay taxes to the US Government? You have the simple choice of leaving the US. I'm not talking about other churches here. I'm talking about the LDS, where tithing is mandatory so that they can evangelize around the world and build castles.

You need to reread KingOfSomewhereHot's quote; he was quite accurate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot

..."church taxes" are completely voluntary... government taxes are fairly mandatory.

That is true. However, in regard to church support in the Christian faith -- payments to the church are voluntary; government taxes are mandatory. To go into detail, Churches generally do not collect "taxes" but instead suggest a tithe, called tithing to the Church, which is generally less than 10% of your income (boy I wish the federal government would follow this lead)! The "LDS church" you cited, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - the Mormon Church - members discretely pay their tithing to the bishop of their ward, a typical tithe of less than 10% of their income. Should you disagree with this amount, which can be less due to your circumstances (half tithing is fairly common), the option nonetheless remains of leaving the church if you disagree. You should accurately describe the tithing process for the LDS Church; your post did not. Moreover, what organization do you know of that allows full membership without paying dues?
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post #193 of 444
8/2/10 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

You have taxable income but don't want to pay taxes to the US Government? You have the simple choice of leaving the US.

I think we all know you are being quite disingenuous in the equivalency you're trying to create here.

The fact is that if you don't pay your tithe to a church like the LDS you might be expelled and disallowed from attending that church but are otherwise quite free. If you don't pay your taxes to the government the consequences are very different. I think you know this.

You cleverly tried to dodge this obvious and factual difference by trying to limit your claim to someone not wanting to pay their tithe or taxes, but the reality of the different consequences come in the actions, not the desires. I think you know this too.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #194 of 444
8/3/10 at 3:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I think we all know you are being quite disingenuous in the equivalency you're trying to create here.

The fact is that if you don't pay your tithe to a church like the LDS you might be expelled and disallowed from attending that church but are otherwise quite free. If you don't pay your taxes to the government the consequences are very different. I think you know this.

The fact is, that if you don't want to pay taxes to the US government, you are free to denounce your citizenship and live elsewhere. That's the fact. No jail as long as you leave first. That's the fact. Pretty simple, really.

Are you saying that if you don't want to pay taxes, you do that first, then leave later? Then that would be your own dipshit fault to do things in the wrong order, and perhaps you deserve a little jail time to wisen you up.

Quote:
You cleverly tried to dodge this obvious and factual difference by trying to limit your claim to someone not wanting to pay their tithe or taxes, but the reality of the different consequences come in the actions, not the desires. I think you know this too.

I don't catch your point. Of course paying taxes is a choice. If you seriously can't afford to do it, then you likely don't have to pay. The only reason not to pay taxes it that you decide you don't want to do it.

Like I said, if you take your "actions" in the wrong order, it's your own fault. Other than that your choices with the church and with the state are the same. Pay up or get out.
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post #195 of 444
8/3/10 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The fact is, that if you don't want to pay taxes to the US government, you are free to denounce your citizenship and live elsewhere. That's the fact. No jail as long as you leave first. That's the fact. Pretty simple, really.

You're gonna stick to your guns on this aren't you? Whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I don't catch your point.

That's obvious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Of course paying taxes is a choice. If you seriously can't afford to do it, then you likely don't have to pay.

I'll give you points for creativity on that one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Like I said, if you take your "actions" in the wrong order, it's your own fault. Other than that your choices with the church and with the state are the same. Pay up or get out.

Of course. They are exactly the same.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #196 of 444
8/3/10 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

You need to reread KingOfSomewhereHot's quote; he was quite accurate:



That is true. However, in regard to church support in the Christian faith -- payments to the church are voluntary; government taxes are mandatory. To go into detail, Churches generally do not collect "taxes" but instead suggest a tithe, called tithing to the Church, which is generally less than 10% of your income (boy I wish the federal government would follow this lead)! The "LDS church" you cited, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - the Mormon Church - members discretely pay their tithing to the bishop of their ward, a typical tithe of less than 10% of their income. Should you disagree with this amount, which can be less due to your circumstances (half tithing is fairly common), the option nonetheless remains of leaving the church if you disagree. You should accurately describe the tithing process for the LDS Church; your post did not. Moreover, what organization do you know of that allows full membership without paying dues?

Ahh the sweet smell of ignorance in the morning .....

Maybe you ignore this fact:
You are allowed to write off up to 10% of your income as charitable donations.

The only violent act Jesus committed was against the 2 money collectors at the temple a lot like Bin Laden and the 2 money towers. Jesus preached that salvation should be free. It's what got him into trouble with the Jews. He never paid taxes.

Anyone ever wondered why Christianity started in the Roman Empire?
Why the bible was only available in latin for 1560 years?
Why most Christians still send their money to Rome?
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #197 of 444
8/3/10 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

The fact is, that if you don't want to pay taxes to the US government, you are free to denounce your citizenship and live elsewhere. That's the fact. No jail as long as you leave first. That's the fact. Pretty simple, really.

And where will we go that we don't have to pay taxes???

People have nothing to loose by denouncing religion (in fact, there is much to be gained.)... Denouncing citizenship is not so easy.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
Reply
post #198 of 444
8/3/10 at 9:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Anyone ever wondered why Christianity started in the Roman Empire?

Actually no; I have never wondered that. Can't say I've lost any sleep because of it either!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Why the bible was only available in latin for 1560 years

The versio vulgata or "commonly used" Bible translation, courtesy of Saint Jerome and Pope Damasus I, served as the officially promulgated version of the Bible in Latin and this version is what led to the development of the English language Bible we use today. Not surprising in the least you failed to pick up that the native language of the Church during this period was not English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Why most Christians still send their money to Rome?

Our Diocese sent our combined collections last week to Haiti. Are we infidels?
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post #199 of 444
8/4/10 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Actually no; I have never wondered that. Can't say I've lost any sleep because of it either!

Of course you didn't, this would require intellectual curiosity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

The versio vulgata or "commonly used" Bible translation, courtesy of Saint Jerome and Pope Damasus I, served as the officially promulgated version of the Bible in Latin and this version is what led to the development of the English language Bible we use today. Not surprising in the least you failed to pick up that the native language of the Church during this period was not English.

Are you saying the god's word could not be understood by most people for centuries?
The English language did not exist at that time. Hadrians wall ...? Sniff, do I smell it again, the sweetness of absolute ignorance. Yep it's in the air today.
Ever heard of the "Lautverschiebung"? Look it up.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #200 of 444
8/4/10 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

And where will we go that we don't have to pay taxes???

People have nothing to loose by denouncing religion (in fact, there is much to be gained.)... Denouncing citizenship is not so easy.

Somewhere where the standard of living is high and taxes are lower, perhaps?

Notice I don't live in the US. But actually, taxes aren't the reason I left, though I do pay far less than I would in the States. I don't even have to denounce my citizenship because I am under the threshold where my income supersedes our tax treaty. And of course I don't have to pay State or local taxes... and where I am I don't have to pay sales tax or GST.

What am I saying? AFAIK you don't live in the US either (and in a place with a lower standard of living). At least to the threshold level, your taxes should be lower than they would be in the States as well. Are you even a US citizen?
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